Feminism and double standards in the church

[ObeyTheGospel]

You do bring up some good points here.  Nevertheless, me, Thankfulldad, chosenone, and others have voiced our solutions - loving them in a Christ-like manner and bringing the matter before the Lord through prayer and love - and I would like to hear your solution.  I haven't been able to make out a clear solution to this problem. 

And for the record, I believe I have said that women AND men should be respected.  And in case I didn't make the point clear, men AND women should be treated equally.  Please, if you're going to reason with me do NOT tell me or anybody else something that I did NOT say.  I believe I even said this in an earlier post.  You might have forgotten it a few pages ago. 

People can go back and see that you wrote we need to respect women no matter what. But you did not say the same thing about men, not until after I refuted you. Only then did you say that men should also be respected, but you didn't at first.

[Cally]

We must walk as Christ did.

And how should we do this?

Even if you don't speak against evil when you see it, you should at least be a "presence" that disagrees with it.

So many people say "love love love" around here and I think they have a Bible cartoon Jesus in mind with that, but in any case it's left very vague.

The outside world says "love" too. They'll accuse people who are against homosexuality and simply consider it to be sinful--no matter how quiet they are--not to be properly "loving" to them. Working off of that example, you might speak against the practice and the fact that people wrongfully accept the behavior, or you can at least be a PRESENCE standing your ground quietly that others will probably not be able to help but to notice.

To go yet further with that example, I wouldn't put up with you telling me that I shouldn't speak against the practice of homosexuality because doing so isn't "loving people in a Christlike fashion" or anything along those lines. Likewise, nor will I put up with you accusing me of not being "loving" in a Christlike fashion for speaking against things I brought up in this thread.

You make Jesus out to be complacent. I don't even want to think about how you've accepted this attitude, but the paradox of getting after people who care--again, forget it. You're doing as the enemy would have you.

[wolflet7]

Yes, you refuted me on it before you typed up that response to Thankfulldad, not just recently.  You refuted me a couple pages back, so don't say/act like you just did.

[wolflet7]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

[Kindle]

You do bring up some good points here.  Nevertheless, me, Thankfulldad, chosenone, and others have voiced our solutions - loving them in a Christ-like manner and bringing the matter before the Lord through prayer and love - and I would like to hear your solution.  I haven't been able to make out a clear solution to this problem. 

And for the record, I believe I have said that women AND men should be respected.  And in case I didn't make the point clear, men AND women should be treated equally.  Please, if you're going to reason with me do NOT tell me or anybody else something that I did NOT say.  I believe I even said this in an earlier post.  You might have forgotten it a few pages ago. 

People can go back and see that you wrote we need to respect women no matter what. But you did not say the same thing about men, not until after I refuted you. Only then did you say that men should also be respected, but you didn't at first.

Objection, Your Honor.  Argumentative!!

[Kindle]

  

"So many people say "love love love" around here and I think they have a Bible cartoon Jesus in mind with that, but in any case it's left very vague."...Cally

... I have to disagree. And I don't see anyone here saying that Christ was complacent.  What he showed us was how to take our battle to a higher ground.  

[Thankfulldad]

We must walk as Christ did.

And how should we do this?

Even if you don't speak against evil when you see it, you should at least be a "presence" that disagrees with it.

So many people say "love love love" around here and I think they have a Bible cartoon Jesus in mind with that, but in any case it's left very vague.

The outside world says "love" too. They'll accuse people who are against homosexuality and simply consider it to be sinful--no matter how quiet they are--not to be properly "loving" to them. Working off of that example, you might speak against the practice and the fact that people wrongfully accept the behavior, or you can at least be a PRESENCE standing your ground quietly that others will probably not be able to help but to notice.

To go yet further with that example, I wouldn't put up with you telling me that I shouldn't speak against the practice of homosexuality because doing so isn't "loving people in a Christlike fashion" or anything along those lines. Likewise, nor will I put up with you accusing me of not being "loving" in a Christlike fashion for speaking against things I brought up in this thread.

You make Jesus out to be complacent. I don't even want to think about how you've accepted this attitude, but the paradox of getting after people who care--again, forget it. You're doing as the enemy would have you.

So we are to be critical of others...?

[Cally]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

Let's see if I can paint an image to get my point across that's kind of similar to ones that I've been in.

Let's say you're at work and a few of your coworkers are talking about having a party of swinging (as much as I hate to even say it, I'm trying to use the term that I found out means exchanging wives for sex). They wouldn't have to spend much time around me to realize that they shouldn't even bother talking to me--I'd have nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, if they had simply heard that I'm a Bible-believing Christian, they wouldn't even bother asking if I would be involved in such a thing.

It's something that the general world recognizes as considered evil by just about everyone who claims to have any morals.

Now why is that so? I would say that perhaps a good chunk of the general world has clearly renounced such practices on the whole within earshot of virtually everyone.

What's my solution? To train the similar sort of result with feminist ideas. Am I agreeable to feminism? Nope, because I'm a Bible-believing Christian. Whether someone has to say such a thing once or be associated with a belief system, the point is that the message got out somehow. I wouldn't have to be obnoxious about it (or not just obnoxious, but even someone who actively proclaims it), but as the issue comes up, it's just understood--no one would expect differently. That's what I mean by being a "presence" with one's beliefs.

Quite simply, it's understood that I consider a behavior or attitude as "not okay." Yet, interpersonally, I'd ultimately want to be as kind and show myself as well-meaning to others as I possibly could. The stage of the game of discussing among believers is a bit different, because that's sort of the meeting phase of everything and where the game plans are made.

That's my outlook, more or less. I mean, that's what I'd do out in the world. It's probably nothing you've never heard before. 

[ObeyTheGospel]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

[Thankfulldad]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. 

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women 

[Cally]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. 

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women 

People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."

[Thankfulldad]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. 

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women 

People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."

My apologies...however, it does come across that way now and again...

[Cally]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins.  

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women  

People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."

My apologies...however, it does come across that way now and again...

Let me lay this all out and see if I can make you understand.

The least you can do, as a drop in the bucket, is care. For example, years ago I could not believe the way I felt like the only person who cared when double standards felt really hurtful. Growing up, hearing all of this alleged history of "oppression of women" which I certainly saw no sighs of, and then seeing colleges award women-only scholarships while college attendance was/is predominantly female in the first place. It becomes clear very quickly that the agendas are absolutely hateful. The divorce courts are another example. A male childhood friend of mine was molested by a woman and the way that issue was treated was nothing like the way it would have if a man molested a girl.

It goes on and on--my generation entered a world hateful toward men. You can't miss it. If I tried to forget, something would remind me. It was indescribably awful feeling like the only one who cared.

Some people are saying "backlash" but the world keeps on claiming to care about justice--whichever side its individuals claim to be on. The question is: who is it that actually DOES care about justice rather than observing, "this is just backlash" in this case. From where I was at the time, nobody. Absolutely nobody.

But years later, I realized I was wrong, and that I wasn't alone. Everybody can't pick every battle there is out there, probably, but it is refreshing not to keep being tested for whether you're the one person in the room not calling a dog a cat. Seeing many other men and women out there recognizing the overwhelmingly obvious condition of things is comforting.

On the other hand, many things going on in "Men's Rights Movements" are every bit as crazy as things going on in feminism. I'd rather see Christianity handle it PROPERLY.

I crave to see the day when I can safely say, Christianity produced something better than the general world. That is to say, I've never found safety in churches (just using this as an example). Everybody's getting together and enduring each other enough just to sit side-by-side but how is that any better than sitting with others in a movie theater? What if church was an actual sanctuary relative to the rest of the world? When it's full of people who won't touch any issue with a 20-foot pole, you can't know.

To round this off, I'm trying to reinforce this point: "BE A PRESENCE." If somebody ELSE out there is wondering if there's anybody else in the world who cares about right and wrong, you can be a light in the darkness. Oftentimes you'll get yourself into big trouble doing so because of the attitudes around you, but that's why you have to have guts and faith.

I know some anti-feminists male and female who lament how poorly these issues are confronted in church and THEY endure flak, and that's encouraging to me.

After I'm encouraged, I want to be a part of that. More and more and more people (men and women both) are coming out of the woodwork and some are about ten times as on fire about this subject as I am. Are they making a difference? You bet, because it's a comfort to know someone cares, and it's starting to go a lot farther than that.

Actually, as a sidenote, this is probably what caused me to get serious about God; this was when I recognized, alone, that I had better turn to God for love, because no one else had it. AT THE TIME (NOT anymore, mind you) I was forced to recognize that I had better turn to God for this and get to know him, because he's the only one I could have turned to. Scriptures set me free, and I got to know God personally.

How many more ways can I make my point? How about this: It's not good that Fathers let this happen to their sons and have nothing to say really on the subject. It's not good for sons to see their fathers weak in this area.

[wolflet7]

Thanks for the solutions guys.  It feels like we are getting on the right track.  Earlier it felt like you guys were somewhat leaving God out of this situation and I wasn't going to stand there and watch.  Every situation can be made perfect through the Lord. 

Mutual agreements ftw!!   

Now how's about we stop debating and keep all the other topics under 8 pages mkay?   

[Cally]

As tough as it is to classic male machismo, us guys need to learn to say when something hurts.

Who knows? You might find that there are women who care (there are).

[Kindle]

I think basic injustice has to do with people believing they have"entitlements" in any given relationship. My husband, especially, watches a lot of court shows here, and it's just a pattern which seems to repeat itself over and over. More and more judges, it seems, are beginning to bring morality into the picture. So maybe society is now attempting to turn back the tide?  I hope so.
It's just plain wrong thinking.. and it is hurtful. Women are easily as guilty of this as men.
There's an advertising clip from one of my favorite judges.. when she shouts "It's time to woman up and be a parent!"
Ah well... it's kinda a bit OT in many respects.  Just wanted to share a bit of hope...

[Lavender]

I just want to say...

I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.

However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.

I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.

Based on what?  The word and opinions of men?  Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?

I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.

True story.

So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,

BUT

We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?

Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.

Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .

I agree women "vent" more through words,
but
men "vent" in other ways IMO.

A bitter root is not just about what is exposed and seen (or heard)...lots are tucked away nicely in the heart.

HOW TRUE!   Manna to you on THAT!

[ObeyTheGospel]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. 

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women 

"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)

If you think that the gospel has nothing to do with obedience then I guess you need to study your Bible more, no offense. This is not my opinion, I'm quoting you this from the Bible.

[Thankfulldad]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. 

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women 

"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)

If you think that the gospel has nothing to do with obedience then I guess you need to study your Bible more, no offense. This is not my opinion, I'm quoting you this from the Bible.

Paul is talking to believers; the saved...those in Christ Jesus.  We are to obey Jesus (Who is the Gospel)...His Spirit living in us; that is where surrender comes in, giving ourself up for Jesus living in us.  Then, His faith, hope and love shine through...and others know we are set apart. 

[ObeyTheGospel]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. 

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women 

"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)

If you think that the gospel has nothing to do with obedience then I guess you need to study your Bible more, no offense. This is not my opinion, I'm quoting you this from the Bible.

Paul is talking to believers; the saved...those in Christ Jesus.  We are to obey Jesus (Who is the Gospel)...His Spirit living in us; that is where surrender comes in, giving ourself up for Jesus living in us.  Then, His faith, hope and love shine through...and others know we are set apart. 

"We are to obey Jesus"

Thank you. At last we can agree on something.

[ObeyTheGospel]

And we still haven't heard about a solution from you.  If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one

My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.

Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins.  

I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...

When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing.  With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.

Or...

I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women  

People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."

My apologies...however, it does come across that way now and again...

Let me lay this all out and see if I can make you understand.

The least you can do, as a drop in the bucket, is care. For example, years ago I could not believe the way I felt like the only person who cared when double standards felt really hurtful. Growing up, hearing all of this alleged history of "oppression of women" which I certainly saw no sighs of, and then seeing colleges award women-only scholarships while college attendance was/is predominantly female in the first place. It becomes clear very quickly that the agendas are absolutely hateful. The divorce courts are another example. A male childhood friend of mine was molested by a woman and the way that issue was treated was nothing like the way it would have if a man molested a girl.

It goes on and on--my generation entered a world hateful toward men. You can't miss it. If I tried to forget, something would remind me. It was indescribably awful feeling like the only one who cared.

Some people are saying "backlash" but the world keeps on claiming to care about justice--whichever side its individuals claim to be on. The question is: who is it that actually DOES care about justice rather than observing, "this is just backlash" in this case. From where I was at the time, nobody. Absolutely nobody.

But years later, I realized I was wrong, and that I wasn't alone. Everybody can't pick every battle there is out there, probably, but it is refreshing not to keep being tested for whether you're the one person in the room not calling a dog a cat. Seeing many other men and women out there recognizing the overwhelmingly obvious condition of things is comforting.

On the other hand, many things going on in "Men's Rights Movements" are every bit as crazy as things going on in feminism. I'd rather see Christianity handle it PROPERLY.

I crave to see the day when I can safely say, Christianity produced something better than the general world. That is to say, I've never found safety in churches (just using this as an example). Everybody's getting together and enduring each other enough just to sit side-by-side but how is that any better than sitting with others in a movie theater? What if church was an actual sanctuary relative to the rest of the world? When it's full of people who won't touch any issue with a 20-foot pole, you can't know.

To round this off, I'm trying to reinforce this point: "BE A PRESENCE." If somebody ELSE out there is wondering if there's anybody else in the world who cares about right and wrong, you can be a light in the darkness. Oftentimes you'll get yourself into big trouble doing so because of the attitudes around you, but that's why you have to have guts and faith.

I know some anti-feminists male and female who lament how poorly these issues are confronted in church and THEY endure flak, and that's encouraging to me.

After I'm encouraged, I want to be a part of that. More and more and more people (men and women both) are coming out of the woodwork and some are about ten times as on fire about this subject as I am. Are they making a difference? You bet, because it's a comfort to know someone cares, and it's starting to go a lot farther than that.

Actually, as a sidenote, this is probably what caused me to get serious about God; this was when I recognized, alone, that I had better turn to God for love, because no one else had it. AT THE TIME (NOT anymore, mind you) I was forced to recognize that I had better turn to God for this and get to know him, because he's the only one I could have turned to. Scriptures set me free, and I got to know God personally.

How many more ways can I make my point? How about this: It's not good that Fathers let this happen to their sons and have nothing to say really on the subject. It's not good for sons to see their fathers weak in this area.

I know exactly how you feel. I have often thought if I'm the only one who cares about the double standards that are used against men. But I'm just going to repeat what I've said all along:

There is an old saying: "A lie told often enough becomes true." Adolph Hitler used the same tactic. He believed that if you repeated a lie often enough, eventually people would come to believe it. Hitler believed that brainwashing a generation would give you power and control. And this is the same tactics that the feminists have used.

When someone tries to justify the mistreatment of men by saying that women are backlashing due to years of oppression, are these people able to provide some evidence of this, or are they just repeating the propaganda of feminists? "Female oppression" is such a popular and widespread saying, that people believe it as a fact. However, if you were to ask these people for some evidence, they would begin to twiddle their thumbs. They might use the old chest nut that women were not allowed to vote and were made to stay in the kitchen, but that's about the best they could do. Anything else they say is simply based on the fairy tales of feminism. If not, then they need to provide us the evidence.

For example, I could start a movement that promoted the sufferings of men. I could claim that for thousands of years most women have used men for money and would often cheat on their husbands while he was at work. If I kept repeating this, like the feminists, eventually people would start believing it. Remember, a lie told often enough becomes true. However, if someone did critical thinking and asked me to provide some evidence, I wouldn't be able to. I would be able to give assumptions, but no real evidence. It's the same with the feminists. They are well known for promoting falsehood and propaganda for the puropse of causing prejudice against men. But very few people acually ask them for evidence.

"Female oppression" is an excuse for women to justify their prejuduce agianst men. Not all women do this, of course; but there is a growing number of women who do. I would like to know exactly how women were oppressed. Men often had it hard, too. When people say women were oppressed for thousands of years, are they able to give us an example? Are they able to tell us exactly how women were oppressed for thousands of years with real facts? If not, then why believe it? I believe at times women have indeed been oppressed, but nowhere near to the extent that the feminists claim.

Peace!

[Kindle]

Wikipedia..

A "backlash" is a popular negative reaction to something which has gained popularity, prominence, or influence. Although it can sometimes represent a categorical rejection of the idea, aesthetic, product, or fad in question, it is usually a reflection of a collective resentment of that thing's ubiquity in culture and media, rather than a denial of its existence. The term is commonly applied to gender and racial discrimination and religious discrimination against minority groups, as well, such as in response to certain events or circumstances (e.g. the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001).

Still... two wrongs do not make a right.  There is a lot of anger in a backlash.  Anger is a nasty thing.. as anger is self fueling.  I don't care to argue the degree of oppression, real or imagined.  But I will say that a significant portion of the oppression is real.  But, yes. Feminists have been guilty of exaggerating. A chunk of feminists "truths" are actually more like myths, and only based on some core of truth. Men and women alike are now trying to sort fact from fiction.. so that's a good thing.
I'm old enough to have experienced a portion of all this unfolding.  Clarity here hasn't been easy.  Women's lot has been almost wholly an implicit aspect of societies throughout history.  It's hard to dig out the implicit!  History itself really is written from the male perspective, yada yada.   

[DaveW]

"Oppression of women."

Believe me I have seen plenty of it.  My dad used to preach it as gospel. He had the stance (taught to him in seminary) that "wives submit to your husbands" meant that every woman was to grovel at the feet of the men in her life.  So much so that he seriously chewed out my brother in law for not making his wife (my sister) wait on him hand and foot. I watched him beat the living !@#$%^& out of my mother.  The neighbors called the police who did nothing even though she had broken bones.  They took his statement and sent him on to his bowling game.

Our family's story is far from unique.  That oppression is not a fairy tale.

[DaveW]

OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.

"Take it like a man"

[MeMyself]

OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.

"Take it like a man"

I don't agree with this at all.

There are women who can be just vicious...

and NO person should just take or weather abuse in any form IMO!

[chosenone]

OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.

"Take it like a man"

I don't agree with this at all.

There are women who can be just vicious...

and NO person should just take or weather abuse in any form IMO!

Absolutely. Women can be incredibly abusive both physically and emotionally. They can be very cruel.

[Cally]

OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.

"Take it like a man"

Garbage, and to men, this is murder.

Allow me to explain. It doesn't matter if she's 90 years old and has to use a walker and he's a body-builder who can bench 800 pounds and martial arts master: if she has the will to do him harm, and society not only refuses to protect him but also forbids him from protecting himself, he's as good as dead and the culture is guilty of murder.

And that's exactly what modern culture has done to men. This very attitude is murder.

PS--it's also profound spiritual bondage and personally I'm done with it.

PSPS--that's the kind of old-school male-chauvinistic inequality that feminists actually like. Without it, feminism couldn't have lasted this long and done the things that it has.

[Kindle]

From what I've seen, both  men and women alike now go to jail in domestic violence disputes.  What is sad is that anyone, male or female, would think that abuse in any way expresses some form of love.


TY, DaveW.  The oppression was real.. and it did go that deep in many families.  Do men now really have it as bad as women did when our generation was growing up?  No way.  It was not that males too could not be oppressed. It was societies willingness to allow women to be the scapegoat; regardless of the degree.
I am grateful that things are no longer like they were.  We can build from the now.  There's a lot that can still be improved upon. But the one thing, I hope, that many will consider to be a positive outcome of the feminist movement is that people can now better see men and women alike as human beings first and foremost. So, let us see were that takes us?
If aspects of the movement  pit men and women against each other, then it is not good.  Or else it something that goes deep and is need of deeper understanding, acceptance, redress and forgiveness.


If OTOH means that men would be a lot better off having the wherewithal  to grasp where the backlash is/was coming from?  Then I agree.  Not only men, but women as well.  If the horse is dead, then there is no longer a need to beat it. But you can't say it never existed.

[Cally]

From what I've seen, both  men and women alike now go to jail in domestic violence disputes.  What is sad is that anyone, male or female, would think that abuse in any way expresses some form of love.


TY, DaveW.  The oppression was real.. and it did go that deep in many families.  Do men now really have it as bad as women did when our generation was growing up?  No way.  It was not that males too could not be oppressed. It was societies willingness to allow women to be the scapegoat; regardless of the degree.
I am grateful that things are no longer like they were.  We can build from the now.  There's a lot that can still be improved upon. But the one thing, I hope, that many will consider to be a positive outcome of the feminist movement is that people can now better see men and women alike as human beings first and foremost. So, let us see were that takes us?
If aspects of the movement  pit men and women against each other, then it is not good.  Or else it something that goes deep and is need of deeper understanding, acceptance, redress and forgiveness.


If OTOH means that men would be a lot better off having the wherewithal  to grasp where the backlash is/was coming from?  Then I agree.  Not only men, but women as well.  If the horse is dead, then there is no longer a need to beat it. But you can't say it never existed.

Feminism has shown that women in the oppressive old days took this for granted: chivalry.

It's dead, feminism killed it. Men have always been doing jobs that are more dangerous to their lives than women.

There's a phrase floating out there right now among "Men's Rights Activists": male disposability. I could link you to a video that does a really good job explaining that attitude being every bit as prevalent as "The oppression of women" in the dreaded "back then."

Men are supposed to be on the frontlines of war, pick life-threatening career paths. That's been an expectation on men, not women.

You don't hear feminists complaining about that. In fact, there are hardly any women out there complaining about that, even among those who consider the new attitudes of equality to be so enlightened.

[Kindle]

Cally,
PM the link to me if you like.  Or show it here for others to see as well.  Al life is precious, and war is ..    

[Cally]

Cally,
PM the link to me if you like.  Or show it here for others to see as well.  Al life is precious, and war is ..    

I'd hesitate to put it up here because it's a long video and I'm not sure if I remember it being totally free of possibly objectionable content (you know how YouTube is).

But the vlogger's name is "girlwriteswhat." (you can check that out on YouTube) She writes ferociously anti-feminist work and does a pretty good job of doing it in an even-handed fashion. I haven't had time to see too many of her videos, but what I've seen is solid common sense.

[Lavender]

"Oppression of women."

Believe me I have seen plenty of it.  My dad used to preach it as gospel. He had the stance (taught to him in seminary) that "wives submit to your husbands" meant that every woman was to grovel at the feet of the men in her life.  So much so that he seriously chewed out my brother in law for not making his wife (my sister) wait on him hand and foot. I watched him beat the living !@#$%^& out of my mother.  The neighbors called the police who did nothing even though she had broken bones.  They took his statement and sent him on to his bowling game.

Our family's story is far from unique.  That oppression is not a fairy tale.

Dave,

Your post made me cry.  I am so sorry to hear that about your poor mother.  It brought back very painful memories that I try not to go near if I can help it.  I watched my father maul my mother more than once, smash the furniture into pieces, throw all the dishes and bowls of food off the table onto the floor, etc.  He would come home late in the night after drinking and being with his filthy, barfly girlfriend, my mother would be pretending to be asleep she was so scared, and he would grab her hair and throw her out of bed onto the floor and maul her.  Sometimes when it would get late and he still wasn't home we knew he would be coming home drunk again and my mother, knowing what was sure to come, would actually be shaking with fear and take me and my younger sister and get out of our home in a hurry.  We would have to go stay with whoever would take us in for a night.  It was horrifying and so degrading.

My mother took us girls and actually left my father 6 times (got our own apartment or house) and went back with him every time because he would come to her and beg and say he wouldn't do it again.  He knew he would, he just didn't like not having the convenience of my mother to use and abuse.  Plain truth!  The last time she left she never went back and years later she got a divorce, but she never remarried.  She was asked several times, but she never trusted her heart nor life to a man again.

And I, myself, know what it feels like to be physically mauled and verbally battered, etc. and at least for me, the pain inside never goes away.

I can only say I hate SOME of the things feminists stand for.

[Lavender]

Cally,

After looking at your cartoons I want to ask:  If some (I'm sure not all) guys today don't like being chivalrous or thought of as being chivalrous or paying for a meal, why do they ask women out?  Obviously, some guy or guys somewhere don't like it or the cartoon wouldn't exist.  So why take a woman out to dinner and pay for the meal while resenting it?  Doesn't make sense.

[Cally]

Cally,

After looking at your cartoons I want to ask:  If some (I'm sure not all) guys today don't like being chivalrous or thought of as being chivalrous or paying for a meal, why do they ask women out?  Obviously, some guy or guys somewhere don't like it or the cartoon wouldn't exist.  So why take a woman out to dinner and pay for the meal while resenting it?  Doesn't make sense.

The point is, it's an inequality that women tend to be far less inclined to complain about.

It is not uncommon to hear women expect both "equality" and special treatment (chivalry). THAT'S what doesn't make sense, except to make a situation that is oppressive to men.

Men and women both are calling out this hypocrisy these days, and man do they mean it. I could link you to a video of a young woman ranting at women/girls who expect boyfriends to buy them things all the time, pay for dinner, etc. and yet they claim to want equality except it's loaded with profanity--she's pretty spot-on. After supposing that women have had the bad end of the bargain for all history, we need to see what happens when true equality comes into the picture, complete with no more "women and children first" (just children, hopefully) and things of that sort.

[ObeyTheGospel]

"Oppression of women."

Believe me I have seen plenty of it.  My dad used to preach it as gospel. He had the stance (taught to him in seminary) that "wives submit to your husbands" meant that every woman was to grovel at the feet of the men in her life.  So much so that he seriously chewed out my brother in law for not making his wife (my sister) wait on him hand and foot. I watched him beat the living !@#$%^& out of my mother.  The neighbors called the police who did nothing even though she had broken bones.  They took his statement and sent him on to his bowling game.

Our family's story is far from unique.  That oppression is not a fairy tale.

I've also seen many women oppress men. What's your point?