Fornication escalating in the church

[Stephen777]

Recently I have been quite shocked at the level of people who call themselves Christians and are having sex outside of marriage. I also come across people who profess to be Christians and they will ask whether or not sex before marriage is a sin.

Do these people actually read their Bibles? I don't want to sound offense, but I'm very curious. Christians are the salt of the earth. We are to let our light shine. The best way to show the world the greatness of Christianity is to be like Jesus and be a good example to unbelievers.

But I find it a great embarrassment when I'm witnessing to someone and they tell me that they know Christians who go to church and are having sex outside of marriage. It happened with me and my brother a few months ago. He's an unbeliever, but he's going out with a woman who goes to church and calls herself a Christian. He argued with me that his girlfriend is a Christian but they are still having sex. When I told him that sex before marriage is a sin, he got angry and offended.

Or when I witness to Muslims, I often have the same problem. Muslims will look at the way many Christians behave and they tell me how hypocritical Christians are. They look at Christianity and see it as a joke.

This is why the Bible says: "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (2 Timothy 2:19).

The Bible tells us that if we are going to proclaim the name of Christ, have nothing to do with sin. The apostle Paul tells us the same thing. He tells us not to let sexual sin be named among us.

Has anyone else noticed an increase of fornication in the church?

[chosenone]

Muslims can act very badly as well believe me, so they have no right to talk, but yes it is common, although still many couples do wait for marriage.

[Man_Of_Honor]

It is an unfortunate discovery.

About Christians ridiculed as a whole, it is not too surprising.

[fassopony]

As a single who used single Christian dating sites last fall, it seems more common than not.  eHarmony actively promoted sexual relations outside of marriage on their forums!

Me, I'm happy being single.  I don't want to mess with that. 

Keep in mind that all humans will sin and/or have sin in their lives whatever religion one professes.

I often wonder why pastors/leaders who get so hopped up about homosexuality do not seem to care about their fornicating flock?  While they proclaim on the misdeeds of those outside the church, the sin pervades and eats away their very own flock from the inside.  Sinner (unsaved) will sin, we as Christians are supposed to be set apart and strive for a holy life.

God will let them know if we or their pastors do not.

[chosenone]

As a single who used single Christian dating sites last fall, it seems more common than not.  eHarmony actively promoted sexual relations outside of marriage on their forums!

Me, I'm happy being single.  I don't want to mess with that. 

Keep in mind that all humans will sin and/or have sin in their lives whatever religion one professes.

I often wonder why pastors/leaders who get so hopped up about homosexuality do not seem to care about their fornicating flock?  While they proclaim on the misdeeds of those outside the church, the sin pervades and eats away their very own flock from the inside.  Sinner (unsaved) will sin, we as Christians are supposed to be set apart and strive for a holy life.

God will let them know if we or their pastors do not.

I have wondered that myself fassopony, as I have known a few couples who are actively attending church for ages who are openly living with someone. The pastors are failing if they don't say anything or challenge them in some way.

[Lavender]

I know of one couple who were both divorcees and when they met, began living together and continued going to the same church every Sunday.  Finally, the pastor preached boldly against such sin and the couple became very angry and left the church.  The pastor said he felt bad that they left, but he still meant every word he preached.  After a few months the couple went to the pastor and asked if he would marry them and he did.  They now attend that church again.

[Lavender]

From what I understand, fornication is escalating in the body of Christ.  It seems to be pretty common and not only among the young people.  But maybe that isn't true all over.  I don't know.  But porn and masturbation are rampant according to the written articles and sermons one sees and hears.  They are just as bad as fornication, yes? 

[Stephen777]

From what I understand, fornication is escalating in the body of Christ.  It seems to be pretty common and not only among the young people.  But maybe that isn't true all over.  I don't know.  But porn and masturbation are rampant according to the written articles and sermons one sees and hears.  They are just as bad as fornication, yes? 

All sins are bad, even sins committed in the mind.

[MeMyself]

I know of one couple who were both divorcees and when they met, began living together and continued going to the same church every Sunday.  Finally, the pastor preached boldly against such sin and the couple became very angry and left the church.  The pastor said he felt bad that they left, but he still meant every word he preached.  After a few months the couple went to the pastor and asked if he would marry them and he did.  They now attend that church again.

Good for that Pastor! 

[DaveW]

I often wonder why pastors/leaders who get so hopped up about homosexuality do not seem to care about their fornicating flock?  While they proclaim on the misdeeds of those outside the church, the sin pervades and eats away their very own flock from the inside. 

That is the point.  The gays and lesbians are not in their congregation while they are mostly dependant on those in the pews for their livelyhood. If they come down hard on those shacking up or otherwise engaging in extramarital sex, they potentially could experience a severe decrease in tithes and offerings because those people will go elsewhere.

It is a crying shame.

[Bitter Sweet]

I often wonder why pastors/leaders who get so hopped up about homosexuality do not seem to care about their fornicating flock?  While they proclaim on the misdeeds of those outside the church, the sin pervades and eats away their very own flock from the inside.

That is the point.  The gays and lesbians are not in their congregation while they are mostly dependant on those in the pews for their livelyhood. If they come down hard on those shacking up or otherwise engaging in extramarital sex, they potentially could experience a severe decrease in tithes and offerings because those people will go elsewhere.

It is a crying shame.

I think that makes sense which puts the pastor in the category of lover of money. There is just so much more than that, lying is a big crime too according to God, one of the things he hates. Trouble makers, busy bodies are abhorrent to God too. Why do people draw the line at sexual sin? Something that occurs between 2 consenting adults is more ethical than hurting someone with slander. But I think fornicators refers to rapist and child molesters, not something between 2 consenting adults.

[DaveW]

I think fornicators refers to rapist and child molesters, not something between 2 consenting adults.

"Fornication" is the english word used to translate pornia. It encompassases a multitude of sexual sins including premarital sex, beastiality, homosexuality, adultery, married sex during menses, etc. It may even include anal intercourse because that was thought to be what was meant by "sodomy."

Pornia is absolutely forbidden for New Covenant believers.

[Bitter Sweet]

I think fornicators refers to rapist and child molesters, not something between 2 consenting adults.

"Fornication" is the english word used to translate pornia. It encompassases a multitude of sexual sins including premarital sex, beastiality, homosexuality, adultery, married sex during menses, etc. It may even include anal intercourse because that was thought to be what was meant by "sodomy."

Pornia is absolutely forbidden for New Covenant believers.

That's from Greek? What is it called in Hebrew? When we hear that word, most people just think of movies.

[DaveW]

To my knowledge there is no equivalent word in Hebrew, that encompasses ALL that.  Instead there are words for each individual act.

Pornia comes from pornas which was the description of a certain class of female slaves in ancient Greece used exclusively for sex.  We get the english 'pornography' from that which would mean the writing (graphos) of sex slaves (pornas).

[fassopony]

Straightforward if disheartening insight, Dave.  But it is what it is and God has already won in the end anyway.

Fornication not being allowed is God's decision.  Not a general rule decided upon by consenting adults.  I have seen more "wisdom" by consenting adults be hurtful than not!  That is why God decides, not us ;)

[DaveW]

That is why God decides, not us ;)

That says it all.

[JohnDB]

Taking God's job of pointing a finger at other people's sin is worse than fornicating but for some reason it doesn't seem to generate the same shock and horror sexual sins do. And the truth is that it really should.

[Bitter Sweet]

That is why God decides, not us ;)

That says it all.

Ditto.

Should it even be a discussion in churches? I remember when I went to church, the priest prayed, read from the bible and at the end gave a short moral story. He never expounded on what the verses he read meant, not pushing his agenda. All we got was what the bible stated.

[Bitter Sweet]

Taking God's job of pointing a finger at other people's sin is worse than fornicating but for some reason it doesn't seem to generate the same shock and horror sexual sins do. And the truth is that it really should.

I love this smiley.

[FireSword]

Taking God's job of pointing a finger at other people's sin is worse than fornicating but for some reason it doesn't seem to generate the same shock and horror sexual sins do. And the truth is that it really should.

I love this smiley.

I think you mean gossip, slander and false judgement.

You don't hear many sermons about gossipers these days.

Some judgement is required by the church, otherwise the Fathers house would become a den of thieves.

Scripture says to deal privately with issues and to go public as an absolute last resort.

[JohnDB]

FireSword:

I meant exactly what I said. Nothing more.

Refer to the prodigal son story. The angry son didn't join the party for all his finger pointing at the other brother.

Also in the Old Testament the false accuser was usually sentenced to death.

No one is speaking of sin promotion here. But the job of judging belongs solely to God. No one is to uproot the tares. God will separate them out not you or I.

[Lavender]

FireSword:

I meant exactly what I said. Nothing more.

Refer to the prodigal son story. The angry son didn't join the party for all his finger pointing at the other brother.

Also in the Old Testament the false accuser was usually sentenced to death.

No one is speaking of sin promotion here. But the job of judging belongs solely to God. No one is to uproot the tares. God will separate them out not you or I.

Are you all discussing sin in the church or in the world?   

[JohnDB]

The Church.

[DaveW]

Definately the church.  The world will always be sinful.  In fact any effort to stop sin in the world will ultimately fail as they do not have the strength of the Holy Spirit to resist temptation.

I am looking for a day when every congregation (not just some wild charismaniac ones) have people who can and will publically call out hidden sins in the assembly.

[Down Syndrome Danny]

I think fornification is escalating because we don't put any emphasis on the virtues of motherhood anymore.  And we act as if the young adults are still children and don't have any real responsibilities.

[fassopony]

How does unmarried sex correlate with your assertion?

[Carey]

Taking God's job of pointing a finger at other people's sin is worse than fornicating but for some reason it doesn't seem to generate the same shock and horror sexual sins do. And the truth is that it really should.

There is a place in the church for liars, lusters, fornicators, homosexuals, prostitutes, pimps, judges, thieves, etc etc etc.  It is not in our mandate to judge them, it is, however, our mandate to love them, to show them the word and thereby let God address their issues.

We must be graceful, for to judge them may alienate them from us, and in doing so we may alienate them from God.  We must have the faith to let God intervene in their lives and bring them to a less sinful plateau. 

For this is how God has manifested himself in me, first he came to me without judgement and I allowed the Spirit to enter, then my love for him addressed my sinful nature.  I am far from perfect in His eyes, but he gently guides me to that end.

That is not to say we should dismiss or accept sin as unsinful.  However, we should be welcoming of the sinner; let them hear God's knocking, and accept the Holy Spirit into their lives.  Then God will take care of the rest as He sees fit.

The realization that one sin is no greater than another does wonders for one's disposition, it instills a humility that aids tremendously in the honour of our fellow man as one of God's Children.   

Another's present state is a mere snapshot in time, in his/her past or future, they may more sinless and do more good than we could ever hope for in ourselves.

In judgement one is no better than the one he/she judges.

Carey.

[Bitter Sweet]

The realization that one sin is no greater than another does wonders for one's disposition, it instills a humility that aids tremendously in the honour of our fellow man as one of God's Children.   

[Down Syndrome Danny]

There is a place in the church for liars, lusters, fornicators, homosexuals, prostitutes, pimps, judges, thieves, etc etc etc.  It is not in our mandate to judge them, it is, however, our mandate to love them, to show them the word and thereby let God address their issues.

Oh yeah?  What about murderers, rapists, and pedophiles?  Is there a place in the church for them?  Is it our mandate to love them and not judge them? 

[Bitter Sweet]

There is a place in the church for liars, lusters, fornicators, homosexuals, prostitutes, pimps, judges, thieves, etc etc etc.  It is not in our mandate to judge them, it is, however, our mandate to love them, to show them the word and thereby let God address their issues.

Oh yeah?  What about murderers, rapists, and pedophiles?  Is there a place in the church for them?  Is it our mandate to love them and not judge them? 

The thing is, we don't know who they are unless they get caught. Sexual sin is the one that is kept most secret, unlike gossipers and slanderers, these people tell on themselves but sexual predators and adulterers keep their dirty deeds under tight seals. Either they get caught or repent, no way of knowing one is sitting next to you in church if you go so chances are they are being loved.

[Carey]

There is a place in the church for liars, lusters, fornicators, homosexuals, prostitutes, pimps, judges, thieves, etc etc etc.  It is not in our mandate to judge them, it is, however, our mandate to love them, to show them the word and thereby let God address their issues.

Oh yeah?  What about murderers, rapists, and pedophiles?  Is there a place in the church for them?  Is it our mandate to love them and not judge them?  

Absolutely.

Love the sinner, hate the sin is not merely a cliche, it is indeed what I believe God expects from His Church.  

Jude 1:23  (NIV)
23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.


As for judgement and punishment, I do not feel it is our role as Christians to carry out. Our government and God fulfill this role, separation of Church and State is a sagacious arrangement in this regard.

Romans 13:1-7  (NIV)

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.


Carey.

[fassopony]

"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is not from the Bible, it is from Ghandi, a Hindu.


As to loving sinners like pedophiles, rapists, etc, yes God has commanded us to love all.  The word "love" can be looked up and traced to original meaning at contextual time to show action.  So yes, should a rapist come to church I will not scorn, yell at, disdain or be rude.  I will show common courtesy and try to put aside my natural abhorrent feelings.

Treating people with common courtesy or, showing love behavior, is not to be confused with being a doormat or wimpy acceptance of sin.  It is rising above petty disdain, rising above the sinful human need to point, ridicule and condemn and behaving in God directed manner to all.

I love my coworkers who are gay, some I am "work friends" with.  They are sinners who sin, after all.  I extend friendship and encouragement but I do not extend or condone their unholy sexual actions.  I have coffee to listen to or cheer on when work goes well but I do not go to the gay pride festival in town.

[Carey]

"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is not from the Bible, it is from Ghandi, a Hindu.

I never suggested it was, and I supplied scripture that I feel supports the notion.  I am not surprised it originated with Ghandi, a wise and compassionate man.  Thanks for the footnote, I should indeed give credit were due.

As to loving sinners like pedophiles, rapists, etc, yes God has commanded us to love all.  The word "love" can be looked up and traced to original meaning at contextual time to show action.  So yes, should a rapist come to church I will not scorn, yell at, disdain or be rude.  I will show common courtesy and try to put aside my natural abhorrent feelings.

Treating people with common courtesy or, showing love behavior, is not to be confused with being a doormat or wimpy acceptance of sin.  It is rising above petty disdain, rising above the sinful human need to point, ridicule and condemn and behaving in God directed manner to all.

I love my coworkers who are gay, some I am "work friends" with.  They are sinners who sin, after all.  I extend friendship and encouragement but I do not extend or condone their unholy sexual actions.  I have coffee to listen to or cheer on when work goes well but I do not go to the gay pride festival in town.

Well said,

Cheers,
Carey.

PS: whats a fassopony, tried google, no joy.

[fassopony]

My old jumpers (horse that competes in Show Jumping) nickname.  A cross between "fatso" and the Italian word for face, "faccia"

[Carey]

Thanks, magnificent animal.

Regards,
Carey.