The Watch Tower vs modern day Christianity

[Stephen777]

Some years ago I use to go to the Kingdom Hall and socialized with Jehovah's Witnesses. But I no longer go because I do not agree with some of their teachings. But one thing I noticed with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they had much more passion for their faith than the average Christian. Even though they had some false teachings, I had to admire them for their passion and desire.

For example, if you were to walk into a baptist, methodist, or catholic church, you would find quite a lot of people who practiced fornication, homosexuality, abortion, adultery, divorce, pornography, revelry, foul language, envy, bitterness, etc. However, these things seem much less common among Jehovah's Witnesses. So even though a baptist or methodist church might have more accurate teachings, they don't seem to be as passionate as the Jehovah's Witnesses. But let me give you my opinion on why I think this is:

In the Kingdom Hall, if a Christian brother or sister is found out to be practicing sin, they will be rebuked in a loving manner and told that what they are doing is sinful. After all, the apostle Paul told us not to socialize with anyone who claims to be a Christian and is deliberately practicing sin (1 Corinthians 5:9-11). However, the average church today hasn't got the guts to confront people about sin. They are too scared of offending people.
As a result of this cowardness, the church is filled with people who feel little conviction of their sin and have little regard for God's commandments.

It's a shame that the Watch Tower has false teachings because I totally solute the Jehovah's Witnesses for their passion and desire. I wish all the other churches had the same commitment and determination.

What do you think?

[Lively Stone]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

[Stephen777]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

[Alethos]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

Lively, in many ways you are correct but could also go further in stating they compete and jostle for positions they will never enjoy.

There use of Rev 14 is sad indeed.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They genuinely believe this to be a literal number which is based on works.

While they are selected to be in heaven those lower believers will remin on earth.

A.

[Stephen777]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

Lively, in many ways you are correct but could also go further in stating they compete and jostle for positions they will never enjoy.

There use of Rev 14 is sad indeed.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They genuinely believe this to be a literal number which is based on works.

While they are selected to be in heaven those lower believers will remin on earth.

A.

I still admire them for their passion. I find much more unrepentant sin in churches than in the Kingdom Hall.

[Lively Stone]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

Lively, in many ways you are correct but could also go further in stating they compete and jostle for positions they will never enjoy.

There use of Rev 14 is sad indeed.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They genuinely believe this to be a literal number which is based on works.

While they are selected to be in heaven those lower believers will remin on earth.

A.

Yes, that is right. Their hopes are based on shifting sands.

[Lively Stone]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

Lively, in many ways you are correct but could also go further in stating they compete and jostle for positions they will never enjoy.

There use of Rev 14 is sad indeed.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They genuinely believe this to be a literal number which is based on works.

While they are selected to be in heaven those lower believers will remin on earth.

A.

I still admire them for their passion. I find much more unrepentant sin in churches than in the Kingdom Hall.

Why would they be worthy of admiration for their passion for lies? Would you happen to admire Muslims, too? Buddhists? Mormons? Baha'is?

I love my Christian brothers and sisters for their passion and those many who give their lives for their faith in Jesus Christ.

[Stephen777]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

Lively, in many ways you are correct but could also go further in stating they compete and jostle for positions they will never enjoy.

There use of Rev 14 is sad indeed.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They genuinely believe this to be a literal number which is based on works.

While they are selected to be in heaven those lower believers will remin on earth.

A.

I still admire them for their passion. I find much more unrepentant sin in churches than in the Kingdom Hall.

Why would they be worthy of admiration for their passion for lies? Would you happen to admire Muslims, too? Buddhists? Mormons? Baha'is?

I love my Christian brothers and sisters for their passion and those many who give their lives for their faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't agree with some of their teachings, but I find them to be more passionate than the average Christian. I have seen too much hypocrisy in Christianity today.

[Alethos]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

Lively, in many ways you are correct but could also go further in stating they compete and jostle for positions they will never enjoy.

There use of Rev 14 is sad indeed.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They genuinely believe this to be a literal number which is based on works.

While they are selected to be in heaven those lower believers will remin on earth.

A.

I still admire them for their passion. I find much more unrepentant sin in churches than in the Kingdom Hall.

Why would they be worthy of admiration for their passion for lies? Would you happen to admire Muslims, too? Buddhists? Mormons? Baha'is?

I love my Christian brothers and sisters for their passion and those many who give their lives for their faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't agree with some of their teachings, but I find them to be more passionate than the average Christian. I have seen too much hypocrisy in Christianity today.

You are right that Christianity has much hypocrisy.

Imagine how the Lord Jesus Christ felt when it came into his mind that "I said in my haste, All men are liars.' (Psalms 116:11)

Do you think this was not a temptation of Christ? 

But nonetheless Christianity has given way to humanism and the frog like spirits have entered in and rob them of their reward.

In the most they are blind, deaf and naked...and there remain until his coming.

A.

[Alethos]

In my experience with Jehovah's witnesses, they are trapped in legalsim and coerced into serving the way they do for fear of ex-communication and shunning. It is a very palpable fear.

What I have seen in the way of enthusiasm or passion is just industriousness based on works for salvation.

Lively, in many ways you are correct but could also go further in stating they compete and jostle for positions they will never enjoy.

There use of Rev 14 is sad indeed.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They genuinely believe this to be a literal number which is based on works.

While they are selected to be in heaven those lower believers will remin on earth.

A.

I still admire them for their passion. I find much more unrepentant sin in churches than in the Kingdom Hall.

The Kingdom Hall is an expositional based religion which relies heavily on entering the Word...and they have a long history of Bible Based Works.

They have links back to a strong reformation heritage which has long been lost in loose Christian fellowship / Pentecostal / Evangelical type congregational movements today.

But all the same they preach error and for this they are accursed.

A.

[Bitter Sweet]

I have noticed more commitment and passion with the JW's too Stephen. When I was in cosmetology school, the JW was my favorite girl in class because she was so sincere and honest. She was a virgin too and she told me the reason is because she is a non-conformist, most girls do it and she doesn't want to be like the other girls. Another girl was a Baptist preacher's daughter and she was so mean spirited and judgmental, I remember telling her I didn't have a bible so I never read it before and she just rolled her eyes at me, the next day the JW girl gave me a bible and she brought me closer to God. I remember her telling me that they don't vote and let God handle the government, I don't vote either. I found that we had so much in common and developed a deep respect for the JW. I won't join their club but I do think they are doing right with their actions, they don't just talk about God, they are living Godly lives too.

Although the shunning thing is a little messed up, but I don't know how they go about it and I've never seen it so I can't really comment much on it.

[Alethos]

I remember her telling me that they don't vote and let God handle the government, I don't vote either.

[DaveW]

They preach a false gospel and deny that Jesus is God.

That means that any zeal they have is demonic in origin. 

[larry2]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

[Debbie_55]

This is long, but well worth the read for understanding who Jehovah Witness truly are and there should be no admiring anything they do in word or deed.


Is it negative and unbiblical to name false teachers?  The Bible is filled with examples of Jesus and others naming false teachers by name. For example, the Apostle Paul in 2 Timothy names numerous people by name.
2 Timothy 1:15: Phygellus and Hermogenes
2 Timothy 2:17: Mymenaeus and Philetus
2 Timothy 3:8: Jannes and Jambress
2 Timothy 4:10: Demas
2 Timothy 4:14: Alexander the coppersmith
In III John 9, John named Diotrephes.
Jesus called out the false teachers in Matthew 23 and Luke 11.
Ephesians 5:11 makes it clear we are to expose false teachers; "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." 
Highlights of the Beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses
The Watchtower Organization teaches that it is God's sole earthly representative
Jehovah's Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45. This group consists of 10 to 15 mature men that, Jehovah's Witnesses are told, have direct guidance from God. The Governing Body in turn instructs followers with this guidance through the pages of the Watchtower and other publications. Jehovah's Witnesses are told by this "Governing Body" that Scripture alone is insufficient to understand the things of God. One needs the Watchtower Society and the literature it publishes to properly understand the Bible. ("Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. Watchtower, December 1, 1981 p.27) They are the instruments God is using to teach the world the deeper things of the scriptures. People are not to think for themselves but instead submit to the Watchtower Society teachings. (" But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God's organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. Watchtower September 15,1989 p. 23) Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only people on earth that are serving God and the only ones that will be saved. They dare not question the teachings of the Watchtower Society; one who questions the Watchtower Society is considered to be weak in faith and could be disfellowshipped.

Disfellowshipping
Most Christian churches have a system of moral oversight, but their systems are set up to help individuals with problems. Only after extensive effort over a period of time is action taken. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Disfellowshipping is a loving act but in fact it is their most important control mechanism. It allows the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to control its members with guilt and fear.
The Watchtower Society makes a lot of rules, based on their interpretations of various scriptures that all Jehovah's Witnesses must follow. Members are taught that that they must turn each other in for any rule violations. If they observe another Jehovah's Witness breaking a rule and do not report him or her to the elders they are as guilty as the offending party. Anyone breaking any of the Watchtower Society rules is called before 3 elders in a private meeting that is conducted like a trial. The elders become judge and jury deciding whose is repentant and who is not.
Members who are found to be unrepentant of violations of Watchtower rules by these elders, are disfellowshipped. Jehovah's Witnesses can be disfellowshipped for a number of rule violations: premarital or extramarital sex, using alcohol excessively, using tobacco products, celebrating Christmas, reciting the pledge of allegiance, lying, stealing, joining the military, speaking to a disfellowshipped Witness, reading religious material not published by the governing body, or running for political office just to name a few. Fellow members are then required to shun him/her completely, having no contact even if the disfellowshipped person is a family member. (Some allowances are made if the family member is living in the same household). Disfellowshipping has a devastating effect because the individual's entire religious, family and social life are rooted in the Society. Keep in mind Jehovah's Witnesses who are disfellowshipped are no longer part of the Watchtower Society and have, therefore, lost all hope of salvation until they can prove themselves worthy of being accepted back into the Watchtower Organization by their works. Elders in the congregation are the ones who decide when an individual has earned the right to come back into the fold, and the Watchtower Organization instructs elders that it would be very rare for one to earn their way back in less than a year. In order to earn their way back they must attend meetings regularly, sit in the back of the church -Kingdom Hall- while everyone in the congregation ignores them, if anyone did dare to speak to them they could be disfellowshipped themselves. They must do this with the knowledge that if Armageddon should come before they have earned their way back they will be destroyed. Sad to say Disfellowshipping has resulted in suicide. Those who leave on their own are treated just as a disfellowshipped one. Once you join their group there is no easy way out.

Marking
If a member is guilty of breaking a minor rule such as associating with a worldly person (one who is not a Jehovah's Witness) that individual could be marked. This means that other Jehovah's witnesses may only speak to them at the Kingdom Hall (the name Jehovah's Witnesses use for their churches). Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to associate with a marked individual in a social setting.

Blood
Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to accept blood transfusions for themselves or their children, believing that this is the same as eating blood and is forbidden by the Bible. Many of Jehovah's Witnesses have died because of this restriction the Watchtower Society has placed upon its followers. In the past the Watchtower Society has forbidden its followers to get vaccinations or accept organ transplants, many people died needlessly before the Watchtower Society changed its rules and allowed these procedures. They still hold fast to the prohibition of receiving blood transfusions. See the web site "New Light on Blood"

Nationalism
Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to salute the flag of any nation, recite the pledge of allegiance, stand for or sing the national anthem, run for public office, vote, or serve in the armed forces.

Holidays
Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to celebrate Christmas, birthdays, Easter, Thanksgiving, or any other holidays, claiming they all have pagan roots.
Associates
Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to associate with non-Witnesses including family. Exceptions are made if the non-Witness family member is living in the same household.
Trinity
They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.
The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.
Man's Soul
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a person is the soul the Bible speaks of, and when a person dies nothing lives on, the person is dead and is conscious of nothing. When the time comes for God to resurrect them from the dead He will create a new body for them from His memory.
Hell
They totally deny the existence of the traditional Christian view of Hell. Satan is regarded as having created the concept of Hellfire in order to turn people against God. They believe that hell is the "common grave of mankind" where people go when they die. They are not conscious there. Unbelievers simply cease to exist at death. Believers remain in death until the resurrection.
144,000
The Heavenly Kingdom took effect in 1914 with the invisible enthronement of Christ as King. A little flock or Anointed Class of about 135,300 people currently occupies it. All were selected after Christ's ascension into heaven at Pentecost (33 AD) and during subsequent centuries. The selection of the full complement of 144,000 was completed in 1935. Some 8,700 are still living on earth. They will spend eternity as spirit creatures in heaven with God and Christ and will rule over the other Jehovah's Witnesses who remain on earth. Those spending eternity on earth are what Jehovah's Witnesses call the Great Crowd or Other Sheep.
Salvation (Grace vs. Works)
Salvation requires that one accept Bible doctrines as interpreted by the Governing Body, be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness and follow the program of works as laid out by the Governing Body.
Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they believe in the grace of God and that one does not earn salvation by their works. While they give lip service to God's grace, their actions indicate differently. Consider the policy of making a disfellowshipped person earn their way back into the congregation. Remember you must be a Jehovah's Witness "in good standing" to survive the end times, and to remain in good standing you must follow the rules and works set out by the Watchtower Organization. If someone breaks a rule, the elders decide whether that person is repentant or not, if they decide they are not repentant they are disfellowshipped. A disfellowshipped witness will not survive the time of the end. Think about it, they are deciding who deserves God's grace and who does not.
Wherever you find the word grace in most Bibles you will find the term "undeserved kindness" in their Bible. While this may or may not be an acceptable translation of the original Greek word, it gives them a great deal of latitude in their teaching. In  the December, 1993 issue of The Kingdom Ministry (a publication for members only) in an article titled "Sow Bountifully but With Discernment" the Watchtower Organization printed this thought "We want to give deserving ones the opportunity to learn of Jehovah's undeserved kindness and the Kingdom hope". This brings to mind some serious questions: How can anyone deserve God's undeserved kindness if it's undeserved? And just what methods would mortal man use to discern who deserves God's undeserved kindness and who does not, are not God's thoughts higher than man's? This statement really shows the attitude of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society—not all people deserve God's grace and it is the job of Jehovah's Witnesses to discern who does and who does not. Jehovah's Witnesses constantly boast that they alone are "preaching the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth". Are they preaching in all the inhabited earth or just to the ones they deem deserving?
Jesus crucified on a stake not a cross
They reject the traditional symbol of Christianity, the cross, as being of pagan origin. They translate the Greek word from the Christian Scriptures "stauros" as "torture stake", and believe that Jesus was crucified on a single upright wooden stake with no crossbeam. They view the cross as an Idol and wearing or displaying one is considered idol worship.

[Stephen777]

They preach a false gospel and deny that Jesus is God.

That means that any zeal they have is demonic in origin.  

As usual you ignored my point and posted your judgmental rant. I already said that they teach false doctrine. My point was that they still seem more passionate about their faith in God than the average Christian.

[Stephen777]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

When I use to have studies with JW's, not once did they tell me that we are saved by good works, never. It was Jesus who told us to keep God's commandments, so why do so many Christians point the finger at JW's when it was Jesus who talked about obedience?

[larry2]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

When I use to have studies with JW's, not once did they tell me that we are saved by good works, never. It was Jesus who told us to keep God's commandments, so why do so many Christians point the finger at JW's when it was Jesus who talked about obedience?

When they demote Jesus Who is Jehovah to being "a god" in John 1:1, they are not being obedient. We are taught that Jehovah is one God, not many gods. Regardless of their attempt at Christianity, until they understand Who Jesus is, they are as the deaf preaching to the deaf, the blind leading the blind, and their condemnation of others as those spitting into the wind; they will be judged in spite of pretended righteousness.

[Lively Stone]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

When I use to have studies with JW's, not once did they tell me that we are saved by good works, never. It was Jesus who told us to keep God's commandments, so why do so many Christians point the finger at JW's when it was Jesus who talked about obedience?

To literally tell you that they are saved by works would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Who would stick with them, then? They are subtle---like Satan. It's all works-based for them. The JW religion appeals to those who have a works-based mindset, those who think that if they do enough for  God they will be acceptable to Him, and if they are acceptable to the Watchtower, then they are OK. That is anti-Gospel, and antichrist.

[GaryMac]

Some years ago I use to go to the Kingdom Hall and socialized with Jehovah's Witnesses. But I no longer go because I do not agree with some of their teachings. But one thing I noticed with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they had much more passion for their faith than the average Christian. Even though they had some false teachings, I had to admire them for their passion and desire.

For example, if you were to walk into a baptist, methodist, or catholic church, you would find quite a lot of people who practiced fornication, homosexuality, abortion, adultery, divorce, pornography, revelry, foul language, envy, bitterness, etc. However, these things seem much less common among Jehovah's Witnesses. So even though a baptist or methodist church might have more accurate teachings, they don't seem to be as passionate as the Jehovah's Witnesses. But let me give you my opinion on why I think this is:

In the Kingdom Hall, if a Christian brother or sister is found out to be practicing sin, they will be rebuked in a loving manner and told that what they are doing is sinful. After all, the apostle Paul told us not to socialize with anyone who claims to be a Christian and is deliberately practicing sin (1 Corinthians 5:9-11). However, the average church today hasn't got the guts to confront people about sin. They are too scared of offending people.
As a result of this cowardness, the church is filled with people who feel little conviction of their sin and have little regard for God's commandments.

It's a shame that the Watch Tower has false teachings because I totally solute the Jehovah's Witnesses for their passion and desire. I wish all the other churches had the same commitment and determination.

What do you think?

Jesus was a false witness to those who were of the law. He was a blasphemer, glutton, wine bibber, and of his father the devil.  To the Baptist JWs are of the devil, to the JWs Baptists are of the devil.

Point being ... If one has not in his being that what Jesus had in himself, then laws for tradition has taken presence over you no matter what religious organization you follow for law. Jesus was crucified for this very thing you describe.

Gary

[Stephen777]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

When I use to have studies with JW's, not once did they tell me that we are saved by good works, never. It was Jesus who told us to keep God's commandments, so why do so many Christians point the finger at JW's when it was Jesus who talked about obedience?

When they demote Jesus Who is Jehovah to being "a god" in John 1:1, they are not being obedient. We are taught that Jehovah is one God, not many gods. Regardless of their attempt at Christianity, until they understand Who Jesus is, they are as the deaf preaching to the deaf, the blind leading the blind, and their condemnation of others as those spitting into the wind; they will be judged in spite of pretended righteousness.

Again you missed the point. I've already said they teach false doctrine. However, they seem much more passionate about repenting from sin than the average Christian. They may be in error, but they seem much more passionate about serving God.

[Stephen777]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

When I use to have studies with JW's, not once did they tell me that we are saved by good works, never. It was Jesus who told us to keep God's commandments, so why do so many Christians point the finger at JW's when it was Jesus who talked about obedience?

To literally tell you that they are saved by works would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Who would stick with them, then? They are subtle---like Satan. It's all works-based for them. The JW religion appeals to those who have a works-based mindset, those who think that if they do enough for  God they will be acceptable to Him, and if they are acceptable to the Watchtower, then they are OK. That is anti-Gospel, and antichrist.

The teaching of obedience did not originate with the WatchTower, it came from Jesus and the apostles.

[Lively Stone]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

When I use to have studies with JW's, not once did they tell me that we are saved by good works, never. It was Jesus who told us to keep God's commandments, so why do so many Christians point the finger at JW's when it was Jesus who talked about obedience?

To literally tell you that they are saved by works would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Who would stick with them, then? They are subtle---like Satan. It's all works-based for them. The JW religion appeals to those who have a works-based mindset, those who think that if they do enough for  God they will be acceptable to Him, and if they are acceptable to the Watchtower, then they are OK. That is anti-Gospel, and antichrist.

The teaching of obedience did not originate with the WatchTower, it came from Jesus and the apostles.

Obedience to the Watchtower comes from Watchtower. They are living in fear and that is why they have an inordinate passion concerning repentance. Christians should have no fear. We are cleansed of all our sin.

They worry about being ex-communicated and shunned for various things. The Church of Jesus Christ is not like that.

[Stephen777]

Religious fervor is even more prevalent among some Buddhist and Hindu sects. Some won't even kill an insect, but you see, they don't receive the only means of salvation available to them. What do Jehovah Witnesses do? Jesus was not God, He is a god to them. Mormons are probably one of the most moral people I've been around, but do they believe in the same Jesus I do? First they believe God was just a man as you and me that became God. Next they believe Jesus our Creator is brothers with Satan; are they really seeing the same Jesus I am?

All these are the things that look wonderful to human reasoning, but we read in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Morality, good works, religiousness, a look of piety, etc. are the object of their affection. The certain ruler came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Oh, do this and do that. Well I've done that from my youth up. Well Jesus did not tell him that he didn't, but as with any kind of works, there's never enough. Go sell all that you have . . .

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" When we have received Christ, God begins His work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure; He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. We don't refrain from sin out of fear, or as an obligation, but as the result of love for Him; IF you love Me?

My thoughts.

When I use to have studies with JW's, not once did they tell me that we are saved by good works, never. It was Jesus who told us to keep God's commandments, so why do so many Christians point the finger at JW's when it was Jesus who talked about obedience?

To literally tell you that they are saved by works would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Who would stick with them, then? They are subtle---like Satan. It's all works-based for them. The JW religion appeals to those who have a works-based mindset, those who think that if they do enough for  God they will be acceptable to Him, and if they are acceptable to the Watchtower, then they are OK. That is anti-Gospel, and antichrist.

The teaching of obedience did not originate with the WatchTower, it came from Jesus and the apostles.

Obedience to the Watchtower comes from Watchtower. They are living in fear and that is why they have an inordinate passion concerning repentance. Christians should have no fear. We are cleansed of all our sin.

They worry about being ex-communicated and shunned for various things. The Church of Jesus Christ is not like that.

Yes, I agree, they are obedient to the WatchTower. But they also believe in obeying the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself taught obedience.

[DaveW]

They preach a false gospel and deny that Jesus is God.

That means that any zeal they have is demonic in origin.

As usual you ignored my point and posted your judgmental rant. I already said that they teach false doctrine. My point was that they still seem more passionate about their faith in God than the average Christian.

I did not ignore your point.  I understand they have a zeal and enthusiasm that looks good and may seem to be what we should have.

I say the whole reason they have such a zeal and passion is that it is demonically inspired. Do we really want THAT??

One cannot have a godly Holy Spirit empowered zeal for a lie.

We do not want our zeal to be demonic. We do not even want it to be human powered.  We NEED it to be Holy Spirit inspired and powered.

[Lively Stone]

They preach a false gospel and deny that Jesus is God.

That means that any zeal they have is demonic in origin.

As usual you ignored my point and posted your judgmental rant. I already said that they teach false doctrine. My point was that they still seem more passionate about their faith in God than the average Christian.

I did not ignore your point.  I understand they have a zeal and enthusiasm that looks good and may seem to be what we should have.

I say the whole reason they have such a zeal and passion is that it is demonically inspired. Do we really want THAT??

One cannot have a godly Holy Spirit empowered zeal for a lie.

We do not want our zeal to be demonic. We do not even want it to be human powered.  We NEED it to be Holy Spirit inspired and powered.

Amen! 

[Stephen777]

They preach a false gospel and deny that Jesus is God.

That means that any zeal they have is demonic in origin.

As usual you ignored my point and posted your judgmental rant. I already said that they teach false doctrine. My point was that they still seem more passionate about their faith in God than the average Christian.

I did not ignore your point.  I understand they have a zeal and enthusiasm that looks good and may seem to be what we should have.

I say the whole reason they have such a zeal and passion is that it is demonically inspired. Do we really want THAT??

One cannot have a godly Holy Spirit empowered zeal for a lie.

We do not want our zeal to be demonic. We do not even want it to be human powered.  We NEED it to be Holy Spirit inspired and powered.

I agree, I just think it's a shame that the modern day church hasn't got the same passion and desire as the JW's. So far I haven't seen much of this. For example, I have never heard a JW say that fornication or homosexuality is okay, but I've come across many Christians who think it's okay.

[Lively Stone]

They preach a false gospel and deny that Jesus is God.

That means that any zeal they have is demonic in origin.

As usual you ignored my point and posted your judgmental rant. I already said that they teach false doctrine. My point was that they still seem more passionate about their faith in God than the average Christian.

I did not ignore your point.  I understand they have a zeal and enthusiasm that looks good and may seem to be what we should have.

I say the whole reason they have such a zeal and passion is that it is demonically inspired. Do we really want THAT??

One cannot have a godly Holy Spirit empowered zeal for a lie.

We do not want our zeal to be demonic. We do not even want it to be human powered.  We NEED it to be Holy Spirit inspired and powered.

I agree, I just think it's a shame that the modern day church hasn't got the same passion and desire as the JW's. So far I haven't seen much of this. For example, I have never heard a JW say that fornication or homosexuality is okay, but I've come across many Christians who think it's okay.

It isn't passion you are seeing.

The Christians I know---and that is a LOT---do have more passion for the Lord Jesus Christ and His word than any JW I have ever met, and a family of JW's live next door.

They don't have the baptism of Holy Spirit, so they couldn't have much passion at all. What you see is the industrious air of works-based religion---nothing more important that being a loyal fan of a football team.

Anyone who says that fornication and homosexuality is OK is not a true believer. JW's are simply toeing the line on morality. That is not a renewed life in Christ. It's the will of the flesh.

[Stephen777]

They preach a false gospel and deny that Jesus is God.

That means that any zeal they have is demonic in origin.

As usual you ignored my point and posted your judgmental rant. I already said that they teach false doctrine. My point was that they still seem more passionate about their faith in God than the average Christian.

I did not ignore your point.  I understand they have a zeal and enthusiasm that looks good and may seem to be what we should have.

I say the whole reason they have such a zeal and passion is that it is demonically inspired. Do we really want THAT??

One cannot have a godly Holy Spirit empowered zeal for a lie.

We do not want our zeal to be demonic. We do not even want it to be human powered.  We NEED it to be Holy Spirit inspired and powered.

I agree, I just think it's a shame that the modern day church hasn't got the same passion and desire as the JW's. So far I haven't seen much of this. For example, I have never heard a JW say that fornication or homosexuality is okay, but I've come across many Christians who think it's okay.

It isn't passion you are seeing.

The Christians I know---and that is a LOT---do have more passion for the Lord Jesus Christ and His word than any JW I have ever met, and a family of JW's live next door.

They don't have the baptism of Holy Spirit, so they couldn't have much passion at all. What you see is the industrious air of works-based religion---nothing more important that being a loyal fan of a football team.

Anyone who says that fornication and homosexuality is OK is not a true believer. JW's are simply toeing the line on morality. That is not a renewed life in Christ. It's the will of the flesh.

I beg to differ, but thanks for sharing your opinion  

[Lively Stone]

Well...as they do not have Holy Spirit because they deny Him, their so-called passion is not generated by a renewal within.

So, where do you think it is from, and why should we be like them?

[chosenone]

Some years ago I use to go to the Kingdom Hall and socialized with Jehovah's Witnesses. But I no longer go because I do not agree with some of their teachings. But one thing I noticed with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they had much more passion for their faith than the average Christian. Even though they had some false teachings, I had to admire them for their passion and desire.

For example, if you were to walk into a baptist, methodist, or catholic church, you would find quite a lot of people who practiced fornication, homosexuality, abortion, adultery, divorce, pornography, revelry, foul language, envy, bitterness, etc. However, these things seem much less common among Jehovah's Witnesses. So even though a baptist or methodist church might have more accurate teachings, they don't seem to be as passionate as the Jehovah's Witnesses. But let me give you my opinion on why I think this is:

In the Kingdom Hall, if a Christian brother or sister is found out to be practicing sin, they will be rebuked in a loving manner and told that what they are doing is sinful. After all, the apostle Paul told us not to socialize with anyone who claims to be a Christian and is deliberately practicing sin (1 Corinthians 5:9-11). However, the average church today hasn't got the guts to confront people about sin. They are too scared of offending people.
As a result of this cowardness, the church is filled with people who feel little conviction of their sin and have little regard for God's commandments.

It's a shame that the Watch Tower has false teachings because I totally solute the Jehovah's Witnesses for their passion and desire. I wish all the other churches had the same commitment and determination.

What do you think?

I am appalled by the actions of JW's. MY daughter has a very close friend who was bought up in that cult, and it has put her off God to a large extent because of their horrible ways. She has a lovely boyfriend who I have met a couple of times, and because he isn't a JW her whole family are forbidden to see her or have any contact. Its so sad, as she misses her mum in particular terribly.I cant believe that anyone would act this way. My daughter is a Christian, and we see her friend from time to time and we pray for her to come to know the real God now that she is out of that cult. Her and her boyfriend are going to marry soon, so her family will miss out so much when they never meet him or any children they may have in the future.
JW's are so deceived and are going to be sadly disappointed when they die.Who cares if they are or aren't strict, they are heading for hell. 

[Carey]

Well...as they do not have Holy Spirit because they deny Him, their so-called passion is not generated by a renewal within.

So, where do you think it is from, and why should we be like them?

False teachings, granted, these are quite obvious to me. However....

I see the OP's point,  I indeed admire some characteristics that describe JW's, here are a few:

Dedication:  they are very dedicated to their false belief, imagine if all Christians were as dedicated to our true belief.

Stewardship:  they are responsible stewards of their false belief, imagine if all Christians were as committed to their responsibilities. 

Evangelizing:  they put forth great effort to spread their false belief, imagine if all Christians were so keen to spread the  Word.

I had a pair of men visit my home once, I groaned as I opened the door, thinking them JW's or Mormons.  I rejoiced when I discovered their true identities, a Baptist Minister and one of his Flock.  I am not a Baptist, but what gave me such joy was that they were spreading a Truth far closer to mine than the other's.

We should indeed follow such an example, for JW doctrine is false, how can we compete with that unless we put forth at least a fraction of that effort.  I would love to get more knocks at my door if when I opened it I saw two Christians spreading the Gospel.

The OP is not supporting false doctrine, he is admiring virtues be they misplaced even evil in their application.  Perhaps some are reading something that is not there, passion can be blinding; it adds and removes words that do not fit into our perceptions. 

That said there are many characteristics of the JW faith that deny True virtue.  I don't see any semblance of support for these in the OP.

Sincerely,
Carey. 

[Lively Stone]

Well...as they do not have Holy Spirit because they deny Him, their so-called passion is not generated by a renewal within.

So, where do you think it is from, and why should we be like them?

False teachings, granted, these are quite obvious to me. However....

I see the OP's point,  I indeed admire some characteristics that describe JW's, here are a few:

Dedication:  they are very dedicated to their false belief, imagine if all Christians were as dedicated to our true belief.

Stewardship:  they are responsible stewards of their false belief, imagine if all Christians were as committed to their responsibilities.  

Evangelizing:  they put forth great effort to spread their false belief, imagine if all Christians were so keen to spread the  Word.

I had a pair of men visit my home once, I groaned as I opened the door, thinking them JW's or Mormons.  I rejoiced when I discovered their true identities, a Baptist Minister and one of his Flock.  I am not a Baptist, but what gave me such joy was that they were spreading a Truth far closer to mine than the other's.

We should indeed follow such an example, for JW doctrine is false, how can we compete with that unless we put forth at least a fraction of that effort.  I would love to get more knocks at my door if when I opened it I saw two Christians spreading the Gospel.

The OP is not supporting false doctrine, he is admiring virtues be they misplaced even evil in their application.  Perhaps some are reading something that is not there, passion can be blinding; it adds and removes words that do not fit into our perceptions.  

That said there are many characteristics of the JW faith that deny True virtue.  I don't see any semblance of support for these in the OP.

Sincerely,
Carey.  

Well, I see all those characteristics in my brothers and sisters in Christ. Maybe the OP needs to let the Lord find him a good church where Christians are interested in living for the Lord.

JW's are counterfeits and we should not be impressed with them. The only virtues I admire are the true virtues of Jesus Christ found in His people---not counterfeits. The things you see in JW's make me shake my head in sadness for them that they are lost.

[Carey]

Well, I see all those characteristics in my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Agreed,

Maybe the OP needs to let the Lord find him a good church where Christians are interested in living for the Lord.

Maybe it would be better to set an example, and strive for a more dedicated stance towards virtue and living for the Lord.  To abandon may be a lost opportunity to bring others closer to God.

JW's are counterfeits and we should not be impressed with them. The only virtues I admire are the true virtues of Jesus Christ found in His people---not counterfeits.

I agree,

The things you see in JW's make me shake my head in sadness for them that they are lost.

The things I see in JW's too make me shake my head in sadness.

I see the OP as wanting more dedication to our Christianity, it is the example he used that is causing alienation,  not what is in his heart.  He has mentioned many times his position, and I too see it being ignored by those blinded by the fully justified passion of their disagreement with JW theology.  

Perhaps being new here I am unaware of some factor in this debate, but I am content with my position. I do not see how I can be any more clear.  

Cheers,
Carey.

[ela]

Some years ago I use to go to the Kingdom Hall and socialized with Jehovah's Witnesses. But I no longer go because I do not agree with some of their teachings. But one thing I noticed with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they had much more passion for their faith than the average Christian. Even though they had some false teachings, I had to admire them for their passion and desire.

For example, if you were to walk into a baptist, methodist, or catholic church, you would find quite a lot of people who practiced fornication, homosexuality, abortion, adultery, divorce, pornography, revelry, foul language, envy, bitterness, etc. However, these things seem much less common among Jehovah's Witnesses. So even though a baptist or methodist church might have more accurate teachings, they don't seem to be as passionate as the Jehovah's Witnesses. But let me give you my opinion on why I think this is:


In the Kingdom Hall, if a Christian brother or sister is found out to be practicing sin, they will be rebuked in a loving manner and told that what they are doing is sinful. After all, the apostle Paul told us not to socialize with anyone who claims to be a Christian and is deliberately practicing sin (1 Corinthians 5:9-11). However, the average church today hasn't got the guts to confront people about sin. They are too scared of offending people.
As a result of this cowardness, the church is filled with people who feel little conviction of their sin and have little regard for God's commandments.

It's a shame that the Watch Tower has false teachings because I totally solute the Jehovah's Witnesses for their passion and desire. I wish all the other churches had the same commitment and determination.

What do you think?

Freedom. The problem and the solution is freedom. This whole conundrum has to do with humans not being able to handle freedom. Therefore people set up religious systems that are run by rules, therefore they can make sure 'sin' is handled correctly, since sin is the biggest fear.

Then there are others that have run into the idea of grace...so they abandon rules and resist any 'teaching' that puts any expectations on them, excepting of certain choice rules of behavior that they prize - of which their rules are very strict about these certain few, to the point where you cannot even get in the church door and you'll be hearing about it.

Then there are many groups inbetween and around.

In my bible, it says that there is a new...and JUST ONE new commandment...'rule' I guess you could say...and this 'rule', the bible says, fulfills every rule. This one 'rule' to the JW group and those like it, becomes another rule that they just tuck into their list of other rules, so it is not big deal.

But, the group that says they live in grace, who only have a few choice rules, that cover certain choice sins... really have a hard time with this one. As it appears to be a rule, so they want to reject it, or reason it away, and get mad when people have the gall to want to talk about it as an important biblical principle...and also, because they believe that those few choice sins are biggies and those that commit these particular ones (especially these, altho there are other lesser ones that some groups include) are not deserving of love. They also cannot abide by seeing this as all other rules being condensed into this one 'rule' that commands we love. It's like, in their mind they're thinking, "Hey God, you forgot that we just cannot show the same kind of love to that sinner over there and that one over here!"

What the problem is, is that both groups of people are basically doing the same thing...looking at things carnally, and when we do that, freedom is a hard thing to deal with. The carnal nature is very familiar to us all. We were born with it and when we decide to go to God and desire for God to renew our minds...to gain spiritual minds....the mind of Christ (which we already have access to actually)...then these spiritual things(grace/freedom/how to look at sin)...then this commandment won't be as hard to understand and in fact it will be a joy to obey....then, Stephen, I believe you'll start seeing a difference in more Christian groups.

We saw the first indication of how the carnal nature reacts to sin when Adam and Eve disobeyed. They had never experienced freedom and sin before in the way we have...so, they didn't make a decision based on experience. Therefore it was more of a reaction rather than an informed action. (hope you get my drift, as it is hard to find the right words to explain) It was pure reaction -  a reaction to having a real choice that they had never thought of before. I find this very interesting and enlightening as I see a human being's first reaction to having sinned...they tried to run away from God even tho they did know BY experience the pure love and relationship with God. They immediately hide themselves, denying they ever did anything and blame the other....and what is amazing is that they did these things TO almighty God, who knew everything and has shown them His great love.  So this tells me that one of the human nature's first impulse to sin is to quickly forget the immense love of God in exchange for thinking He is someone to run from, then hide from, then blame others, argue, believe the enemy that God has ulterior motives and create a way to deal with sin on their own (fig leaf and etc). So, this is where rules have come into play... rules being = our way to deal with sin, instead of running to God first and encouraging everyone else to do the same. Rules are punitive and they exclude, therefore we don't encourage people...especially ALL people...to come to God and experience the love of God first. We first put forth rules, which just encourages people to feel ashamed/exposed and therefore run away from what they should be running to = God.

Love covers a multitude of sins. Many humans/groups have forgotten that our first priority is not to get people to stop sinning....as our first priority is to be living a life that abides in God's powerful love and then get others to run to God and do the same. Not a theoretical, sweet mushy-gooshy 'love', but a powerful love that draws people in and creates in us (everyone at different speeds) a desire to please Him.  Then when we have experienced the love of God and more relationship with Him grows is when sin begins to diminish....which is what I wish Adam and Eve would have realized in the first place. They had right in the palm of their hands the answer to missing the mark = running to Him  and then abiding there. As there is where forgiveness and healing reside.