When will the Church allow Women priests?

[matt1]

The point is made frequently and always with the same confidence.

There is a general assumption, at least in Europe and North America, that the Catholic Church's insistence on a male priesthood is an obscure anomaly, which endures only because a Polish pope has, in the 1990s, refused to move with the times.

Yet the times have often favored a female priesthood and never more so than when Christ ordained His first priests, nearly 2,000 years ago.
Virtually all the pagan religions of His day had priestesses, and it would have been entirely normal and natural for Him to choose women for this task.

He had, moreover, a number of excellent potential candidates, from His own Mother, who accompanied Him at His first miracle and stood with Him as He suffered on the cross, to Mary Magdalene or the women of Bethany.
Instead, He chose only men, and He remained immovable on this, continuing right to the end to exhort and train them all, leaving thus a Church which turned out to be safely founded on a rock.

From those twelve men a direct line of apostolic succession has given the Catholic Church the bishops and priests it has today

John Paul II "Only a baptized man (vir) receives sacred ordination.
The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.
The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return."

"The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.
Nor does the Church have any authority or right to decide that Women can become Priests. "

From the beginning, God had chosen that there would be a Jewish people, among whom His divine Son would be born.
Their own priestly traditions consisted of an all male priesthood and hierarchy would form part of the background and culture which would help them — and others — to see and know Him, in the life and traditions of the Catholic Church, the New Israel.

Christ was not awarding them the priesthood as a reward for good behavior: courage, intelligence, or skill. The contrary is often true, and the people who do the most damage to the Church are priests and Bishops who cause scandal and rebel against the magisterium and liturgical rubrics.

Rather, just as bread and wine are the essential "matter

[Alethos]

Why don't you just post the entire catholic encyclopaedia?

[matt1]

Yes you are funny cheers!

This doesnt come from the Catholic Encyclopedia.  This is Apoligetics.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, at least some of them, contain errors.
Somebody else here gave me info from what he said is the "Catholic Encyclopedia".
It totally contradicted the Catechism.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official teachings of the Church Magisterium and their interpretation of Scripture, and tradition.
The Catholic Encyclopedia may have been written by any idiot and if it contradicts the Catechism, then it was.

However, I think the Guy that quoted the Catholic Encyclopedia to me yesterday was full of it. 

[matt1]

Lily76,
you asked me a question about why women cant be priests, so this thread is my answer to you.
Personally, I would rather not argue much with you.
I have admiration of the fact that you are the first Protestant I have ever known of who defended the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity of Mother Mary and her title as Mother of God.

Oh, well I take that back, I know of some other Protestants centuries ago who defended some of those teachings, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, the Original Protestants...
Thanks for not jumping on the bandwagon with the latter day reforms! 

[HRoberson]

There weren't very many female rabbis though, and His mission was first to the Jews. It makes perfect sense that the Apostles would have been men simply on that basis, and nothing more.

That of course doesn't mean that women were outlawed, just not expeditious at the time.

[chosenone]

There are some fantastic and annointed female vicars around in the anglican church.

[LightHammer]

Pope Blessed John Paul II said that such is technically possible but not likely to ever happen.

The ordinate is predicated on the Apostles. The Apostles were all men and so the tradition will probably stick ever-enduring for exclusively men until the Parousia.

[Lily76]

Lily76,
you asked me a question about why women cant be priests, so this thread is my answer to you.
Personally, I would rather not argue much with you.
I have admiration of the fact that you are the first Protestant I have ever known of who defended the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity of Mother Mary and her title as Mother of God.

Oh, well I take that back, I know of some other Protestants centuries ago who defended some of those teachings, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, the Original Protestants...
Thanks for not jumping on the bandwagon with the latter day reforms! 

I do not understand why women can't teach in Catholic or many protestant churches. We tend to have only male pastors, but we had a woman that used to teach – she rarely teaches now. My sister in law is a minister and teaches in my church occasionally. She is just an assistant now. In few years she will be official pastor. I do not think only males should teach. Gender does not matter if they are talented and know what to say. :)

by the way I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception. I just believe that Saint Mary lived a life with no personal sin. So she is sinless but she still needs a savior. it is more like what the Eastern Catholics believe. And, John Calvin did not teach Immaculate Conception but yes we will agree with you on the Perpetual Virginity and Mother of God title, or mother of the Lord which is more accurate.

John Calvin believed in the doctrine of original sin as well as the doctrine of headship (federal head), found in Romans 5:12-21. Considering he believed in both of these doctrines most reformed theologians agree that John Calvin did not accept the doctrine of immaculate conception, considering it conflicted with the aforementioned doctrines and with Romans 3:23 that all have sinned.[11]

Taking into account Calvin's belief in headship, this means that Mary could have original sin and not pass it on to Jesus, considering the male is the one who passes on original sin in the doctrine of headship. Since Jesus was conceived by God himself and not by a human man, original sin was not passed on

[matt1]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well   

As far as women teachers, Mother Theresa was a great teacher.

We have had women speakers from EWTN come to Church and teach

Dominican Nuns are great teachers

[HRoberson]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well   

Interesting. If she did not have original sin, nor any personal sin, why did she need a savior?

This is a serious question; I'm not trying to poke anybody with this question.

[LightHammer]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well   

Interesting. If she did not have original sin, nor any personal sin, why did she need a savior?

This is a serious question; I'm not trying to poke anybody with this question.

How and why she got her charism of grace holds your answer.

[HRoberson]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well   

Interesting. If she did not have original sin, nor any personal sin, why did she need a savior?

This is a serious question; I'm not trying to poke anybody with this question.

How and why she got her charism of grace holds your answer.

If sin results in separation from God, and she had none, why would she have needed any grace at all?

If we are not separated from God, and if sin is what causes that separation, then she would not have been separated from God, and could not have needed a savior.

It may well be that her immaculate conception was a grace from God; but it was a grace that obviated the need for a savior, which she never needed (assuming of course, that conception normally results in original sin).

It doesn't matter how she was created sinless. The point is that she did not need Jesus as her savior.

[LightHammer]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well   

Interesting. If she did not have original sin, nor any personal sin, why did she need a savior?

This is a serious question; I'm not trying to poke anybody with this question.

How and why she got her charism of grace holds your answer.

If sin results in separation from God, and she had none, why would she have needed any grace at all?

If we are not separated from God, and if sin is what causes that separation, then she would not have been separated from God, and could not have needed a savior.

It may well be that her immaculate conception was a grace from God; but it was a grace that obviated the need for a savior, which she never needed (assuming of course, that conception normally results in original sin).

It doesn't matter how she was created sinless. The point is that she did not need Jesus as her savior.

You have differnet view of salvation than we do.

Salvation is the unity with God through His grace due to Jesus Christ. Mary would have been conceived without that grace but because of her role as Jesus Christ's mother she was given the charism of grace. Therefore Jesus Christ was her savior because He was the cause of her unity with God in His grace.

I know it may sound weird but your view of salvation and our view of it is a bit different. Not too much but so much so that Mary's IC throws you off.

[matt1]

If a father lets one child fall into a pit and pulls him out he saved that child
If the father prevents the Child from falling in the Pit (sin) in the first place, he is still that Childs savior.

Mary did not save herself from sin.  It was the grace of her maker.
He got to make his Mother.  He can choose a sinless creature to be his Mother.  Nothing is impossible with God

[HRoberson]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well   

Interesting. If she did not have original sin, nor any personal sin, why did she need a savior?

This is a serious question; I'm not trying to poke anybody with this question.

How and why she got her charism of grace holds your answer.

If sin results in separation from God, and she had none, why would she have needed any grace at all?

If we are not separated from God, and if sin is what causes that separation, then she would not have been separated from God, and could not have needed a savior.

It may well be that her immaculate conception was a grace from God; but it was a grace that obviated the need for a savior, which she never needed (assuming of course, that conception normally results in original sin).

It doesn't matter how she was created sinless. The point is that she did not need Jesus as her savior.

You have differnet view of salvation than we do.

Salvation is the unity with God through His grace due to Jesus Christ. Mary would have been conceived without that grace but because of her role as Jesus Christ's mother she was given the charism of grace. Therefore Jesus Christ was her savior because He was the cause of her unity with God in His grace.

I know it may sound weird but your view of salvation and our view of it is a bit different. Not too much but so much so that Mary's IC throws you off.

I don't think it sounds weird, up until you try to explain Mary's need for a savior. If she was conceived without that grace, then she would have had original sin, something that the IC denies.

I happen to agree with your definition of salvation being a unity with God. So far, I'm cool. But there seems to be a contradiction.

Immaculate conception, by definition, means that Mary was not stained by original sin. Right? Perhaps this is where I'm off.

If Mary was not so stained, then her unity with God was not destroyed (see Augustine).

If her unity with God was not destroyed, then she did not need a savior to reconstruct the unity.

For your explanation to be logical (?), either...

--something other than original sin destroys the unity with God, or
--Mary needed a savior from something other than dis-unity with God

Or am I missing something? These seem like either/or arguments to me. Perhaps I have misread Augustine or perhaps the writings of the Magisterium have confused me.

It's possible; it happens.

[Lively Stone]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---she was not without sin.

[Lily76]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---but was not without sin.

I disagree. Virgin Mary had no personal sin in her entire life. It is the reason why God selected her to give birth. she is just a godly woman, right?

[HRoberson]

Yes well, I'm not trying to debate the doctrine/belief/whatever.

I'm simply trying to understand the thinking on the matter.

[matt1]

You're a good guy Mr Roberson 

[HRoberson]

You're a good guy Mr Roberson 

Well thank you. But let me assure you, I have my moments of stupidity and arrogance. And they're not pretty or comfortable for anyone that witnesses them - especially me.

[Lively Stone]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---but was not without sin.

I disagree. Virgin Mary had no personal sin in her entire life. It is the reason why God selected her to give birth. she is just a godly woman, right?

You really need to provide the scripture that says that anyone beside Jesus knew no sin. Her godliness was not the reason why God chose her. she was of the right lineage on top of the fact she was of a compliant nature toward God. She didn't laugh with incredulity like Sarah did when she was given the news about her bearing a child. God wasn't pleased with that reaction.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

Waiting on your scriptural proof.

[matt1]

I have those moments as well
So did Paul
2 Cor 12
I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 
Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.

9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.

[LightHammer]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well  

Interesting. If she did not have original sin, nor any personal sin, why did she need a savior?

This is a serious question; I'm not trying to poke anybody with this question.

How and why she got her charism of grace holds your answer.

If sin results in separation from God, and she had none, why would she have needed any grace at all?

If we are not separated from God, and if sin is what causes that separation, then she would not have been separated from God, and could not have needed a savior.

It may well be that her immaculate conception was a grace from God; but it was a grace that obviated the need for a savior, which she never needed (assuming of course, that conception normally results in original sin).

It doesn't matter how she was created sinless. The point is that she did not need Jesus as her savior.

You have differnet view of salvation than we do.

Salvation is the unity with God through His grace due to Jesus Christ. Mary would have been conceived without that grace but because of her role as Jesus Christ's mother she was given the charism of grace. Therefore Jesus Christ was her savior because He was the cause of her unity with God in His grace.

I know it may sound weird but your view of salvation and our view of it is a bit different. Not too much but so much so that Mary's IC throws you off.

I don't think it sounds weird, up until you try to explain Mary's need for a savior. If she was conceived without that grace, then she would have had original sin, something that the IC denies.

I happen to agree with your definition of salvation being a unity with God. So far, I'm cool. But there seems to be a contradiction.

Immaculate conception, by definition, means that Mary was not stained by original sin. Right? Perhaps this is where I'm off.

If Mary was not so stained, then her unity with God was not destroyed (see Augustine).

If her unity with God was not destroyed, then she did not need a savior to reconstruct the unity.

For your explanation to be logical (?), either...

--something other than original sin destroys the unity with God, or
--Mary needed a savior from something other than dis-unity with God

Or am I missing something? These seem like either/or arguments to me. Perhaps I have misread Augustine or perhaps the writings of the Magisterium have confused me.

It's possible; it happens.

It's not that complicated. It's actually simple metaphysics.

You're not wrong for having questions you're simply asking the wrong questions.

First you should acknowledge that Mary had a savior simply because she had grace and not simply because she had communion with God. Adam and Eve had communion with God but did not yet experience His grace.

Salvation is not simply the removal of sin and thus returning to a prefall Adamic state. Salvation is removing sin and inheriting a greater relationship with God by coming into unity with Him through His grace. The fact that Mary had grace which Adam did not proves that she had a savior because the coming of grace is due to Christ and Christ alone.

The second question or inquiry you should make is what is the source of Mary's preserving charism of grace within the context of IC. Basically how or why was Mary preserved in her conception from sin and given grace?

It was because of her service to Jesus Christ and nothing else. So whether through privation from contracting sin or absolution from it, for all man Jesus Christ is the sole cause of salvation (i.e. the reception of God's grace and unity therein).

For Mary it was simply privation as opposed to absolution/regeneration.

[Lily76]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---but was not without sin.

I disagree. Virgin Mary had no personal sin in her entire life. It is the reason why God selected her to give birth. she is just a godly woman, right?

You really need to provide the scripture that says that anyone beside Jesus knew no sin. Her godliness was not the reason why God chose her. she was of the right lineage on top of the fact she was of a compliant nature toward God. She didn't laugh with incredulity like Sarah did when she was given the news about her bearing a child. God wasn't pleased with that reaction.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

Waiting on your scriptural proof.

I do not have a scriptural proof that says Mary was sinless. I just know from other verses that a godly woman like her had no personal sins.

Show me a verse where Mary committed a single sin!

If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

hmm..Are you serious?

She still needs a savior (It is the original sin)

[Lively Stone]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---but was not without sin.

I disagree. Virgin Mary had no personal sin in her entire life. It is the reason why God selected her to give birth. she is just a godly woman, right?

You really need to provide the scripture that says that anyone beside Jesus knew no sin. Her godliness was not the reason why God chose her. she was of the right lineage on top of the fact she was of a compliant nature toward God. She didn't laugh with incredulity like Sarah did when she was given the news about her bearing a child. God wasn't pleased with that reaction.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

Waiting on your scriptural proof.

I do not have a scriptural proof that says Mary was sinless. I just know from other verses that a godly woman like her had no personal sins.

How is that?

Show me a verse where Mary committed a single sin!

Mary's sin was never germane to her place in the scheme of things. Does everyone mentioned in scripture have to have a list of sins added? The point is that it is really quite an aberration to think that anyone other than Jesus had no sin.

If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

hmm..Are you serious?

Yes, I am seriously asking you.

She still needs a savior (It is the original sin)

If she had never sinned in her entire life, she would be a superhuman! Why would she need a saviour? She should be a saviour.

No, Mary herself said that Jesus was her Saviour, which means she had the full realization that she was a sinner in need of saving.

[winsome]

Catholics believe mary had a savior as well   

Interesting. If she did not have original sin, nor any personal sin, why did she need a savior?

This is a serious question; I'm not trying to poke anybody with this question.

How and why she got her charism of grace holds your answer.

If sin results in separation from God, and she had none, why would she have needed any grace at all?

If we are not separated from God, and if sin is what causes that separation, then she would not have been separated from God, and could not have needed a savior.

It may well be that her immaculate conception was a grace from God; but it was a grace that obviated the need for a savior, which she never needed (assuming of course, that conception normally results in original sin).

It doesn't matter how she was created sinless. The point is that she did not need Jesus as her savior.

You have differnet view of salvation than we do.

Salvation is the unity with God through His grace due to Jesus Christ. Mary would have been conceived without that grace but because of her role as Jesus Christ's mother she was given the charism of grace. Therefore Jesus Christ was her savior because He was the cause of her unity with God in His grace.

I know it may sound weird but your view of salvation and our view of it is a bit different. Not too much but so much so that Mary's IC throws you off.

I don't think it sounds weird, up until you try to explain Mary's need for a savior. If she was conceived without that grace, then she would have had original sin, something that the IC denies.

I happen to agree with your definition of salvation being a unity with God. So far, I'm cool. But there seems to be a contradiction.

Immaculate conception, by definition, means that Mary was not stained by original sin. Right? Perhaps this is where I'm off.

If Mary was not so stained, then her unity with God was not destroyed (see Augustine).

If her unity with God was not destroyed, then she did not need a savior to reconstruct the unity.

For your explanation to be logical (?), either...

--something other than original sin destroys the unity with God, or
--Mary needed a savior from something other than dis-unity with God

Or am I missing something? These seem like either/or arguments to me. Perhaps I have misread Augustine or perhaps the writings of the Magisterium have confused me.

It's possible; it happens.

It's not that complicated. It's actually simple metaphysics.

You're not wrong for having questions you're simply asking the wrong questions.

First you should acknowledge that Mary had a savior simply because she had grace and not simply be side she had communion with God. Adam and Eve had communion with Hod but did not yet experience His grace.

Salvation is not simply the removal of sin and thus returning to an prefall Adamic state. Salvation is removing sin and inheriting a greater relationship with God by coming into unity with Him through His grace. The fact that Mary had grace which Adam did not proves that she had a savior because the coming of grace is due to Christ and Cheist alone.

The second question or inquiry you should make is what is the source of Mary's preserving charism of grace within the context of IC. Basically how or why was Mary preserved in her conception from sin and given grace?

It was because of her service to Jesus Christ and nothing else. So whether through privation from sin or absolution from it, for all man Jesus Christ is the sole cause of salvation (i.e. the reception of God's grace and unity therein).

For Mary it was simply privation as opposed to absolution/regeneration.

This a really interesting exchange. I hadn't looked at it quite that way LH

It's good to see some real & helpful discussion here.

[highrigger]

"The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.
Nor does the Church have any authority or right to decide that Women can become Priests. "

Winsome,

That is your churchs policy now but it can change in the future if they decide to change it. What makes you think they cannot.

Your logic is not enough. Where has your church declared that they cannot change that practice?

You are wrong to say it does not have the authority. Of course it does if it chooses to do so.

Peace, JohnR

[Selene]

"The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.
Nor does the Church have any authority or right to decide that Women can become Priests. "

Winsome,

That is your churchs policy now but it can change in the future if they decide to change it. What makes you think they cannot.

Your logic is not enough. Where has your church declared that they cannot change that practice?

You are wrong to say it does not have the authority. Of course it does if it chooses to do so.

Peace, JohnR

The late Pope John Paul II stated that the Church cannot — not will not, but cannot — ordain women, now or in the future. The Catechism of the Catholic Church sets it out clearly, quoting the decree Inter insigniores:

Only a baptized man (vir) receives sacred ordination. The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

Today, society favors a female priesthood and never more so than when Christ ordained His first priests, nearly 2,000 years ago. Virtually all the pagan religions of His day had priestesses, and it would have been entirely normal and natural for Him to choose women, but He didn't.  Therefore, we will follow Christ rather than society.  Christ did not make a mistake.

[Lily76]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---but was not without sin.

I disagree. Virgin Mary had no personal sin in her entire life. It is the reason why God selected her to give birth. she is just a godly woman, right?

You really need to provide the scripture that says that anyone beside Jesus knew no sin. Her godliness was not the reason why God chose her. she was of the right lineage on top of the fact she was of a compliant nature toward God. She didn't laugh with incredulity like Sarah did when she was given the news about her bearing a child. God wasn't pleased with that reaction.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

Waiting on your scriptural proof.

I do not have a scriptural proof that says Mary was sinless. I just know from other verses that a godly woman like her had no personal sins.

How is that?

Show me a verse where Mary committed a single sin!

Mary's sin was never germane to her place in the scheme of things. Does everyone mentioned in scripture have to have a list of sins added? The point is that it is really quite an aberration to think that anyone other than Jesus had no sin.

If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

hmm..Are you serious?

Yes, I am seriously asking you.

She still needs a savior (It is the original sin)

If she had never sinned in her entire life, she would be a superhuman! Why would she need a saviour? She should be a saviour.

No, Mary herself said that Jesus was her Saviour, which means she had the full realization that she was a sinner in need of saving.

I found myself in agreement with almost everything you say when it comes to faith. But when it comes to Mary I will have to say sorry. I'm not going to worship Mary but I'm not going to make serious claims about her and I have no biblical proof. All people have sinned and there is no good person but Christ. That is true. And, some did horrible sins yet we are learning from what they teach us in the bible!

However, Mary had no sin and if you can't show me where she sinned then why would you assume that she committed a personal sin in her life? If Protestants can't provide me with a good reason for why she was selected to be the mother of Jesus then please stop wasting your time justifying a false conclusion about Mary. I do not care what you call her "your sister

[Lively Stone]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---but was not without sin.

I disagree. Virgin Mary had no personal sin in her entire life. It is the reason why God selected her to give birth. she is just a godly woman, right?

You really need to provide the scripture that says that anyone beside Jesus knew no sin. Her godliness was not the reason why God chose her. she was of the right lineage on top of the fact she was of a compliant nature toward God. She didn't laugh with incredulity like Sarah did when she was given the news about her bearing a child. God wasn't pleased with that reaction.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

Waiting on your scriptural proof.

I do not have a scriptural proof that says Mary was sinless. I just know from other verses that a godly woman like her had no personal sins.

How is that?

Show me a verse where Mary committed a single sin!

Mary's sin was never germane to her place in the scheme of things. Does everyone mentioned in scripture have to have a list of sins added? The point is that it is really quite an aberration to think that anyone other than Jesus had no sin.

If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

hmm..Are you serious?

Yes, I am seriously asking you.

She still needs a savior (It is the original sin)

If she had never sinned in her entire life, she would be a superhuman! Why would she need a saviour? She should be a saviour.

No, Mary herself said that Jesus was her Saviour, which means she had the full realization that she was a sinner in need of saving.

I found myself in agreement with almost everything you say when it comes to faith. But when it comes to Mary I will have to say sorry. I'm not going to worship Mary but I'm not going to make serious claims about her and I have no biblical proof. All people have sinned and there is no good person but Christ. That is true. And, some did horrible sins yet we are learning from what they teach us in the bible!

However, Mary had no sin and if you can't show me where she sinned then why would you assume that she committed a personal sin in her life? If Protestants can't provide me with a good reason for why she was selected to be the mother of Jesus then please stop wasting your time justifying a false conclusion about Mary. I do not care what you call her "your sister

[winsome]

"The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.
Nor does the Church have any authority or right to decide that Women can become Priests. "

Winsome,

That is your churchs policy now but it can change in the future if they decide to change it. What makes you think they cannot.

Your logic is not enough. Where has your church declared that they cannot change that practice?

You are wrong to say it does not have the authority. Of course it does if it chooses to do so.

Peace, JohnR

It was Matt1 who said that in the OP. I'll leave him to respond.

[Lily76]

No human being has ever been born sinless except Jesus. It is magical thinking and just plain religious hype that teaches the gullible among us that Mary, Jesus' mother was anything but a normal, sweet-spirited woman who loved God---but was not without sin.

I disagree. Virgin Mary had no personal sin in her entire life. It is the reason why God selected her to give birth. she is just a godly woman, right?

You really need to provide the scripture that says that anyone beside Jesus knew no sin. Her godliness was not the reason why God chose her. she was of the right lineage on top of the fact she was of a compliant nature toward God. She didn't laugh with incredulity like Sarah did when she was given the news about her bearing a child. God wasn't pleased with that reaction.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

Waiting on your scriptural proof.

I do not have a scriptural proof that says Mary was sinless. I just know from other verses that a godly woman like her had no personal sins.

How is that?

Show me a verse where Mary committed a single sin!

Mary's sin was never germane to her place in the scheme of things. Does everyone mentioned in scripture have to have a list of sins added? The point is that it is really quite an aberration to think that anyone other than Jesus had no sin.

If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she be the perfect Lamb of God?

hmm..Are you serious?

Yes, I am seriously asking you.

She still needs a savior (It is the original sin)

If she had never sinned in her entire life, she would be a superhuman! Why would she need a saviour? She should be a saviour.

No, Mary herself said that Jesus was her Saviour, which means she had the full realization that she was a sinner in need of saving.

I found myself in agreement with almost everything you say when it comes to faith. But when it comes to Mary I will have to say sorry. I'm not going to worship Mary but I'm not going to make serious claims about her and I have no biblical proof. All people have sinned and there is no good person but Christ. That is true. And, some did horrible sins yet we are learning from what they teach us in the bible!

However, Mary had no sin and if you can't show me where she sinned then why would you assume that she committed a personal sin in her life? If Protestants can't provide me with a good reason for why she was selected to be the mother of Jesus then please stop wasting your time justifying a false conclusion about Mary. I do not care what you call her "your sister

[Lively Stone]

There is nothing wrong, but do not you see? she was selected to be the mother of Lord Jesus! I'm not gonna ignore this fact that there is something about Mary alone. There is one reason for why she was selected. It must be something you find only in Mary and not other women. Go find that reason. Do not tell me she was a godly woman. There are many other godly women!

That's why we call her blessed. Mary was in the lineage of David and she was available at the exact time needed, both physically and spiritually to fulfill God's will. Don;t you think He knew millions of years ago that she was the one He would use? That He brought her into being for such a purpose? He knew everything about each one of us as well, and He knows the very specific plans He has for you, too.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you,

[Teresa]

There weren't very many female rabbis though, and His mission was first to the Jews. It makes perfect sense that the Apostles would have been men simply on that basis, and nothing more.

That of course doesn't mean that women were outlawed, just not expeditious at the time.

I would not say that the choice of only men to be apostles has anything to do with what was expeditious at the time.

Jesus overturned socials conventions greater than gender limitations.

To have men only as Apostles was God's OWN FREE CHOICE  and a clear indiciation of HIS WILL.

To imply that God bowed to social conventions makes a mockery of Jesus's divinity.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[Teresa]

I do not understand why women can't teach in Catholic or many protestant churches. We tend to have only male pastors, but we had a woman that used to teach – she rarely teaches now. My sister in law is a minister and teaches in my church occasionally. She is just an assistant now. In few years she will be official pastor. I do not think only males should teach. Gender does not matter if they are talented and know what to say. :)

In the Catholic Church women occupy teaching positions.  As a matter of fact, most teachers in a Catholic school are women. We also principals who are women.

Female ministers are also allowed.  We have ministers of the Word (readers at Mass) and extraodinary ministers of the Eucharist (those who give communion).  As far as the Protestant system goes, since thy do not have a priesthood, then yes, they can have female pastors.

The Priesthood is different.  We believe that we are following the will of Christ in having an exclusively male priesthood because this is what Christ intended.  As a matter of fact, if you look at the two Churches that have Apostolic Succession, (Orthodox and Catholic), both do not have have female priests.  Priestesses hark back to Paganism.

by the way I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception. I just believe that Saint Mary lived a life with no personal sin. So she is sinless but she still needs a savior. it is more like what the Eastern Catholics believe

But that is exactly what we Catholics believe.

Mary too, was saved by Christ.

To give an analogy.  Christ saved us after we have fallen into the pit.  But Christ prevented Mary from falling at all. Her Immaculate state derives from Christ's Incarnation, suffering, death and Resurrection.  God applied to Mary the graces that comes from Christ.  That is why Mary was addressed as Full of Grace by the Angel.  Mary was FULL of the grace that can only be had from Christ salvific death and resurrection.

Mother of God title, or mother of the Lord which is more accurate.

Mother of God is correct because Mary conceived, bore and gave birth to God.

Peace and All Good

Teresa