A Christian Contradiction

[Lively Stone]

Hi DaveW,

SEEING sin, your definition of sin is a very good and accurate one.  It is an impossible thing for a thinking creature who has the knowledge of good and evil to ever be able to shed himself from sin.  Here's MY "BUT

[The Third One]

Dear Teresa,

You have a very strong conviction and a very strong faith.  Let's get  together on this very important issue, quit our silly squabbling over the scraps and the gristle, and get to the real meat of the issue.  I'm speaking in culinary terms, because you said you had to go cook.  I bet it was something sensational you had to put together for it to have dragged you away from this...(It's making me hungry just thinking about it!) ...because I know, what we are discussing here is very important to you.  And that's a very good thing.  You wouldn't be taking the amount of time it takes to discuss this if it wasn't.  Neither would I.  We both have lives to lead.  And this takes a lot of time to do  this, and do it properly.  

Allow me to skip all the way down to your last question.  It's a good one.  "Where does it say in the Bible that forgiveness depends on accepting what was done on the cross?

[Teresa]

God knows we are not sinless, nor will we be---but we will be complete and perfected one Day. Only Jesus is sinless. We have all committed sin, and if we know Jesus, we are forgiven people, continuously being cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

No one can say they have no sin and be considered a person with integrity.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

Brilliant! Very well put!

I hope Third pays attention.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[The Third One]

Hi DaveW,

SEEING sin, your definition of sin is a very good and accurate one.  It is an impossible thing for a thinking creature who has the knowledge of good and evil to ever be able to shed himself from sin.  Here's MY "BUT

[Lively Stone]

L. Stone,

Look, I started this blog only to find out if anyone else has accepted what was done for them on the cross 100%.  If you've accepted it 1%.  Hurray!  That's better than not accepting it at all.  

What Jesus has done for me on the cross I have accepted 100% or I wouldn't be saved. It's a dumb question.

But now, we're back to this again.

What IS this?  Are you trying to sell me that I HAVEN'T accepted it 100%, when I have?  "Get real Third One. No one buys your assertion.

[DaveW]

I DIDN'T do it by myself. 

I have truly accepted, 100%, that it has been done for me.  If this incredible, wonderful, heroic, God-saving thing had NOT been done for me, I would be the one condemning my OWN self before God;

I was not talking about legal standing because of the cross.

I was talking about your actual perfomance.

Last August I and my son were exiting a computer store and I dragged my foot as we went into the parking lot, I took a fall and broke my left arm.  Since you agree with my definition of sin, would you agree that dragging my foot was a sin? that falling was a sin?  and that having a broken arm was a sin?  It certainly was less than God's glory. Not having my foot a millimeter higher was a sin. falling was a sin and breaking my arm was a sin. My being in pain from the injuries (and the PT afterward) were all sins.

I realize that they are all covered by the blood and before God it is as if it never happend.  But that is not my experience.

We live in a fallen world and are subjected to sin day in and day out.

[Teresa]

First of all:  Matthew 11:28-30  Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest .  TAKE my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.  For my yoke is EASY, and my burden is LIGHT.  

The original Greek reads : TAKE UP the yoke of me upon you.

There are many verses, but Matthew 20:28 says it all the very best.  One simple verse.  In the original Greek, at Mat 20:28, Jesus says:  "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to GIVE the life of Him as a ransom for many.

[Teresa]

I DIDN'T do it by myself. 

I have truly accepted, 100%, that it has been done for me.  If this incredible, wonderful, heroic, God-saving thing had NOT been done for me, I would be the one condemning my OWN self before God;

I was not talking about legal standing because of the cross.

I was talking about your actual perfomance.

Last August I and my son were exiting a computer store and I dragged my foot as we went into the parking lot, I took a fall and broke my left arm.  Since you agree with my definition of sin, would you agree that dragging my foot was a sin? that falling was a sin?  and that having a broken arm was a sin?  It certainly was less than God's glory. Not having my foot a millimeter higher was a sin. falling was a sin and breaking my arm was a sin. My being in pain from the injuries (and the PT afterward) were all sins.

I realize that they are all covered by the blood and before God it is as if it never happend.  But that is not my experience.

We live in a fallen world and are subjected to sin day in and day out.

Sorry Dave but I disagree with that post.

Physical ailments and all that is wrong with the world was brought about by sin but not everything that happens to our bodies is sin.

Sin is a conscious act - a wilfull defiance and disobedience of God's will. Unless you intentionally harmed yourself then your physical ailment is not a sin.  If you slipped because someone pushed you (intending to do you harm) then the sin is of that person's not yours.

This is why any discussion of sin must refer back to Genesis - when Adam and Eve because of pride (wanting to be Gods - and thus determine for themselves what is good or evil) willfully disobeyed God.  Any sin will always have that at its heart : Pride - I/Me/Myself decide what is right or wrong and then the execution of a choice that goes against what God has decreed - disobedience.

This is why the 10 Commandments begin with : I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have other gods before me. 
In the final analysis all sins are idolatries - a making a God of ourselves by refusing to follow God's will.

Becoming sick or being in an accident are not sins but effects of sin.  Sin has cosmic effects.  We tend to think sometimes that this or that sin is private so harms no one but every sin affects humanity.

Sin begins in the heart.  That is why God said that instead of writing His law in stone, He will write it in our hearts.

The story of Israel after the giving of the law and the making of the covenant was a long series of failures to keep to the covenant - to obey the laws of God.  This is so because the Israelites saw the law as an imposition that curtails their freedom and their happiness. But in actual fact, the Laws were given for their flourishing.  But so long as they saw it as an imposition it was hard for them to keep.  So God said that He will write it in their hearts. By doing this they will learn to love the Law and thus obey the law in the true spirit of obedience - not just legalistically.

The Blood of Christ does not merely cover our sins - they wash them away.  The reason people think that way is because of a forensic understanding of justification.  We are washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[DaveW]

Sin is a conscious act - a wilfull defiance and disobedience of God's will.

What you describe has another word: transgression.

Sin = anything that misses the mark
Transgression = willful disobedience
Iniquity = transgenerational effects and predispositions caused by sins and transgressions.

They are all different.

[DaveW]

My discussion on this is with third one.  He has yet to show how he is physically sinless without watering down the definition of sin to only include willful transgression.

I have found that those who claim sinlessness (whether for them selves or only in theory) have to water down the definition to make it work.

In both testaments the words used are archery terms meaning to miss the mark/target. You are actually aiming and trying to hit it but you miss.

[MaddSkillz]

The problem is that sinning often times feels good.  Don't lie about it.
It's the truth.  Try not doing something you like to do for the rest of your life, see how that works out for you.

God is not angry at us when we sin. He expects it, honestly.  We're sinful beings.  It's just the way it is. 

[Teresa]

Sin = anything that misses the mark
Transgression = willful disobedience
Iniquity = transgenerational effects and predispositions caused by sins and transgressions.

They are all different.

I don't know where you got that defintion but it is wrong.

Since every creature from the time they were created missed the mark then every creature is sin - the universe is sin.

So God must be in the habit of making sin.

Sin pertains to morality.  Diseases and accident do no have morality.

Sins are transgressions and because they are transgressions against God then when we sin we miss the mark. But this missing the mark applies only to moral choices - ie. choices that have to do with God's commands.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[DaveW]

The problem is that sinning often times feels good.  Don't lie about it.
It's the truth.  Try not doing something you like to do for the rest of your life, see how that works out for you.

God is not angry at us when we sin. He expects it, honestly.  We're sinful beings.  It's just the way it is. 

If you are doing it because it feels good I would suspect you are moving from sin to transgression.

And NO, God does not expect us to sin. That waters down the definition in a different way.

[DaveW]

Sin = anything that misses the mark
Transgression = willful disobedience
Iniquity = transgenerational effects and predispositions caused by sins and transgressions.

They are all different.

I don't know where you got that defintion but it is wrong.

Since every creature from the time they were created missed the mark then every creature is sin - the universe is sin.

So God must be in the habit of making sin.

Sin pertains to morality.  Diseases and accident do no have morality.

This is the primary Hebrew word for sin. It and its variants make up most of the instances.

Strongs H 2398
chata' khaw-taw'

a primitive root; properly, to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference, to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn:--bear the blame, cleanse, commit (sin), by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend(-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin(-ful, -ness), trespass.

And here is the primary Greek word:

Strongs G 264
hamartano ham-ar-tan'-o

perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:--for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

Doesn't anyone ever pay attention to the original languages? 

[MaddSkillz]

The problem is that sinning often times feels good.  Don't lie about it.
It's the truth.  Try not doing something you like to do for the rest of your life, see how that works out for you.

God is not angry at us when we sin. He expects it, honestly.  We're sinful beings.  It's just the way it is. 

If you are doing it because it feels good I would suspect you are moving from sin to transgression.

And NO, God does not expect us to sin. That waters down the definition in a different way.

Of course he does expect us to. No person can live a sinless life.  Does a parent expect their child(ren) to mess up?  Of course. 

It's no different with God.

[The Third One]

"Well, it is quite a different story now...you have made a correction...."as far as my father and I are concerned". It is only from God's point of view that we are considered pure and holy. Our born again spirits are pure and holy places.

[Lively Stone]

"Well, it is quite a different story now...you have made a correction...."as far as my father and I are concerned". It is only from God's point of view that we are considered pure and holy. Our born again spirits are pure and holy places.

[The Third One]

I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,

[Teresa]

This is the primary Hebrew word for sin. It and its variants make up most of the instances.

Strongs H 2398
chata' khaw-taw'

a primitive root; properly, to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference, to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn:--bear the blame, cleanse, commit (sin), by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend(-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin(-ful, -ness), trespass.

And here is the primary Greek word:

Strongs G 264
hamartano ham-ar-tan'-o

perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:--for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

Doesn't anyone ever pay attention to the original languages? 

If you define sin as missing the mark, then you are saying that the archer who did not make the bulls eye sinned, the driver who ended up on the river due to a slipper road sinned, the basketball player who failed to get the ball into the net sinned. They all missed the mark.

Also, the fact that there are people born deformed, nature run amuck, means that God must have sinned because He failed to hit the mark.

Can you now see the problem with your over generalized definition?

Sin is indeed to miss the mark but sin is not simply missing the mark or any mark.  The mark that we are missing is holiness. 

Here is an excerpt from Wiki on Jewish views on sin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_sin

Judaism regards the violation of any of the divine commandments to be a sin. Judaism teaches that sin is an act, and not a state of being.

Hebrew Bible

The first mention of sin as a noun is a zoomorphism, with sin (khattath) crouching at Cain's door. The first as a verb is Abimelech being prevented from sinning (khata) against God in a dream.

People do have the ability to master this inclination (Genesis 4:7) and choose good over evil (conscience)(Psalm 37:27).[1] Judaism uses the term "sin" to include violations of Jewish law that are not necessarily a lapse in morality. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia: "Man is responsible for sin because he is endowed with free will ("behirah"); yet he is by nature frail, and the tendency of the mind is to evil: "For the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen. viii. 21; Yoma 20a; Sanh. 105a). Therefore God in His mercy allowed people to repent and be forgiven."[2] Judaism holds that all people sin at various points in their lives, and hold that God tempers justice with mercy.

Terminology

Hebrew has several other words for sin beyond khata, each with its own specific meaning. The word pesha, or "trespass", means a sin done out of rebelliousness. The word aveira means "transgression". And the word avone, or "iniquity", means a sin done out of moral failing. The word most commonly translated simply as "sin", khata, literally means "to go astray." Just as Jewish law, halakha provides the proper "way" (or path) to live, sin involves straying from that path.

Judaism teaches that humans are born with free will, and morally neutral, with both a yetzer hatov, (literally, "the good inclination", in some views, a tendency towards goodness, in others, a tendency towards having a productive life and a tendency to be concerned with others) and a yetzer hara, (literally "the evil inclination", in some views, a tendency towards evil, and in others, a tendency towards base or animal behavior and a tendency to be selfish). The yetzer hara in some forms of Judaism means that Satan is merely an idiom or parable, rather than the fallen angel of traditional Christianity.

So as you can, the Hebrew original meaning refers back to the missing of a moral mark - a choosing of evil over good and thus a transgression against God.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[Teresa]

Of course he does expect us to. No person can live a sinless life.  Does a parent expect their child(ren) to mess up?  Of course. 

It's no different with God.

Quite wrong. Parents don't expect their children to mess up.  They expect their children to do good but they know that their children will mess up.

God expects us to do good because at every choice (for evil or good) He gives us the grace to choose the good.  But He knows that sometimes we will cooperate with grace sometimes we won't.

God expects us to be good otherwise sending His Son is totally pointless.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[The Third One]

We've heard plenty of examples of "BUT

[ChristNU]

We've heard plenty of examples of "BUT

[DaveW]

If you define sin as missing the mark, then you are saying that the archer who did not make the bulls eye sinned, the driver who ended up on the river due to a slipper road sinned, the basketball player who failed to get the ball into the net sinned. They all missed the mark.

YES! Now you are getting it.

Also, the fact that there are people born deformed, nature run amuck, means that God must have sinned because He failed to hit the mark.

Can you now see the problem with your over generalized definition?

That makes a false assumption that God planned them that way.  Not so. Birth defects, etc are a product of life in a fallen world. That is not God's fault, it is Adam's.

Sin is indeed to miss the mark but sin is not simply missing the mark or any mark.  The mark that we are missing is holiness.

Agreed.  But please understand to Sin (miss the mark of Holiness) one must be AIMING at Holiness.

Biblically if you are NOT aiming at holiness you are in the range of transgression.

Here is an excerpt from Wiki on Jewish views on sin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_sin

Yes I know all that.  It is from modern day Rabbinic Judaism, not necessarily the Judaism of the bible or that of the first century.  Like christianity, modern Judaism has stretched the word 'sin' to include transgressions and iniquity.

I do understand the interplay between yetzer harah and yetzer hatov  (bad inclination and good inclination).  I am currently studying a book from traditional Judaism on Mussar called "Everyday Holiness" and those terms come up often.

[The Third One]

We've heard plenty of examples of "BUT

[ChristNU]

We've heard plenty of examples of "BUT

[GaryMac]

Sin is separation from God. Killing, Stealing, Chasing the neighbor's wife is not sin, those things are only result from that sin, from that separation. If you are one with God as you are supposed to be, He in you and you in Him as one, then it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:5-9

In this flesh is no good thing, the purpose of Christ, Christ in you, Gods Spirit in you, is to open up that which cannot sin, is perfect, and cant be corrupted by the flesh, carnality.

One doesn't even know what sin is until he receive from God what it is to be righteous. Paul thought he was doing God great favors by killing Christians until it was opened to him what it is to have Gods Spirit in him.

Adam didn't know sin until it was opened to him and he became like God to know the difference. This is nothing new. The law for the flesh is sin and death and if you break any of them you are in jeopardy for that violation. But this has not one thing to do with Gods Spirit in you which makes one holy as He is holy.

The laws for the flesh is not the same as the law for Spirit.

Spirit laws are be one with Me, I in you and you in Me as one. Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect, walk in the light as I AM in the light, have His same mind, same Spirit. And if any one of these laws are broken then you are guilty of all and haven't a clue what it is to be without sin. Only Christ be in you can open up that what is perfect. Same as He was in Jesus.

[The Third One]

[/quote]

But....

To miss the resurrection is to miss life. And life is the only solution to death.



[/quote]

Agreed— another of the many approaches Paul could have used to help the Corinthians understand the importance of the resurrection, without denouncing the power that the Corinthians had found in the cross.                           
[/quote]

It is the "approach" Paul used...

Romans 5:10
"For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

The cross was the means to an end. To confuse the means for the end is to rob the Lord Jesus of that for which He came. He came that you might have life. 


[/quote]

When you say "It IS the approach Paul used...to impress upon the Corinthians the importance of the Resurrection

[ChristNU]

When you say "It IS the approach Paul used...to impress upon the Corinthians the importance of the Resurrection

[The Third One]

When you say "It IS the approach Paul used...to impress upon the Corinthians the importance of the Resurrection

[Ladonia]

I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,

[The Third One]

I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,

[ChristNU]

When you say "It IS the approach Paul used...to impress upon the Corinthians the importance of the Resurrection

[DaveW]

Sin is separation from God. Killing, Stealing, Chasing the neighbor's wife is not sin, those things are only result from that sin, from that separation. If you are one with God as you are supposed to be, He in you and you in Him as one, then it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:5-9

I would submit that you are taking an english word and assigning your own definition to it with complete disregard for the definitions of the underlying Greek and Hebrew words. 

That is akin to rewriting the bible to fit your own ideas and not God's.

[The Third One]

A dead Jesus hanging on a cross cannot save anyone - and there is no power in a piece of wood. When Jesus cried, "It is finished," from the cross as He was dying, it was a cry of victory. He had set in motion all of God's intent for the restoration of mankind. Redemption, whereby we are "bought with a price" (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) which has been "paid in full" by the death of Jesus, is the remedial aspect, whereas regeneration is the restorative factor wherein the life of God once again indwells the spirit of a man who is receptive to such in faith.

The "we" is all who have been made alive with Him. He lives, and because He lives He can offer life to every man, woman and child. And His life is the only solution to death.


ChristNU,

To merely "set

[ChristNU]

A dead Jesus hanging on a cross cannot save anyone - and there is no power in a piece of wood. When Jesus cried, "It is finished," from the cross as He was dying, it was a cry of victory. He had set in motion all of God's intent for the restoration of mankind. Redemption, whereby we are "bought with a price" (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) which has been "paid in full" by the death of Jesus, is the remedial aspect, whereas regeneration is the restorative factor wherein the life of God once again indwells the spirit of a man who is receptive to such in faith.

The "we" is all who have been made alive with Him. He lives, and because He lives He can offer life to every man, woman and child. And His life is the only solution to death.


ChristNU,

To merely "set