The Whore Of Babylon

[Talking Donkey]

Talking Donkey,
You said the Jews didnt accept the Deuterocanonicals.
You are talking of the Jews who rejected them at the Council of Jamnia.
That was after the death of Christ.
The Jews who removed those books also rejected the entire new Testament.
The Deuterocanonicals have always been a part of the Septuagint.
The Jews at the Council rejected the books because they were written in Greek rather than Hebrew.
Guess what?  The entire New Testament was written in Greek.
By following that council, as Luther did, you are following the Council of people who rejected Christ.\
How much credibility do they really have?
Would you like me to show you what the Catechism says about Idolatry?

When God gave Moses the instructions to build the lamp, he was very specific, because God knew the end product, from the beginning.  The lamp had to be made out of 7 branches, 3 on each side and one in the middle, in vertical position.  The 6 on the sides were made out of 3 sets of 3 parts (9 total).  The one in the middle was made out of 4 sets of 3 parts (12 total). So...
9+9+9+12+9+9+9 = 39 + 27 = 66
Thy word is a lamp to my feet indeed. For the Bible is made out of 66 books, not 73.

If the Catholic Church is the Religion of the Antichrist, you are saying that for more than 1500 years, the only Christian Church on the face of the earth, was the Church destined to be the wh*re of Babylon.
(The Orthodox Churches did exist as well but those are nearly identical in belief, Practice, and tradition to Catholicism.)
That is pure Speculation.  The Bible does not say what you say it says.  The Bible says plenty that would contradict such a statement.  Would you like me to show you?

Haven't you heard?  The entire nation of Israel went captive to Babylon for 70 years.  Why is it a surprise to see God's elect captive in Babylon again for a longer period of time?

You dont know!  End of Story!  If you want to Speculate go for it, but dont state it as fact.

I am not speculating at all.  I am not like the others that talk about the future as if they can see it perfectly.  I come here claiming to be blind to the future, but able to see the past.  Historical facts are not speculation.  Quoting the word of God is not speculation.  To say, it is written: Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom, count... his # is 666.  That is not speculation, that is a fact.  The pope has names that mean antichrist and add up to 666, that is a fact, that is not speculation.  I have documented verses and historical events, neither one are speculation.

You're saying that the antichrist religion extolls the virtues of Faith, hope, Charity, Humility, temperance, wisdom, justice, and fortitude.
The Catholic Church has always promoted that Jesus is Lord.
The Church has always condemned Idolatry, the new age movement, Necromancy, homosexuality, abortion, Contraception, divorce, and unlawful sex.
The Catholic Church teaches that you must deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Christ.
The Church teaches that you should forgive and love your enemies and serve the poor, the sick, and the dying, for what you do for the least of God's people, you do for him.

WOW! THAT SOUNDS LIKE AN EVIL ANTICHRIST RELIGION TO ME!!!   
The abominable religion you speak of will not preach such things
Jesus said you will know them by their fruits

Not at all, not at all.  Jesus said that people will be identified by their fruits, but not the religious organization, not the antichrist and not the false prophet.  God gave specific clues to identify Babylon the Great, and human reasoning is not one of them.  Use the prophecies and compare their historical record and it will become obvious.

I cant believe im having this conversation with adults.
(It's hard to fathom that there are educated mature adults who fall for this Catholic Church/Religion of the Antichrist, End time Hysteria!)
It is so illogical!

That is why it works so well at deceiving people.  No one beats Satan on that department.

Show me some evil verses from the Catechism and you might be able to make a point.
Would you like me to show you what the Catechism says about Idolatry?

I was raised in a Catholic Country, went to catholic Schools, spent years going to a Catholic bookstore buying books like "Dogmatic Canons and Decrees

[matt1]

Satan decieves people because sin appears very good,
Fornication seems like such a good thing, it takes you out of depression, makes life more enjoyable, much pleasure, releases endorphins, dopamine, puts a smile on your face, boosts the self esteem...

Money seems like such a good thing, power seems so good, abortion, contraception, gay marriage, Eugenics, and sterilization of the reproductive organs seems like such a good thing to so many people.

If you see a beautiful woman it seems like a good thing to check her out.

Wearing fancy clothes, having an enourmous bank account, a nice car, a nice house, and good looks seem like such good things, yet our Lord makes it very clear that such things are vanity and lead to pride, self love, and the eternal loss of the soul.
Remember how hard he said it is for a rich man to get to heaven?

Yes, the devil has decieved the whole world
The world is in love with things that are vain, passing, fleeting, and deceptive.
It is prettty obvious that the vast majority of people, and a large percentage of Catholics, despise the teachings of the Church on Abortion, Contraception, homosexuality, women priests, and divorce.
The teachings of the Church appear bad to worldly people, non catholics as well as heretic, self-willed, rebelious Catholics.
People will follow what appeals to their selfish desires for power, money, and pleasure.  
The teachings of the Church are very unnapealing to worldly people.

you are also wrong and prove that you dont know what the Catholic Church teaches form your statement  "spent years going to a Catholic bookstore buying books like "Dogmatic Canons and Decrees

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Brother whoever told you that Revelation was even "possibly" written afer 95 AD is completely contrary to every single scholar I have ever heard of. Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant and non Christian.

Whoever told you that it is even remotely possible that Revelation was written in the existence of the Ottoman Empire should probably be committed.

Since they were arguing about Revelation's canonicity before the Ottoman empire began, I think we can rule that out.

One of the Alexandrian Popes declared it a spurious book, though, and attributed its authorship to the heretic Cerinthus.

Jarrod

[Talking Donkey]

In my many years living in a Catholic country, I know celibacy is not a vow that people make voluntarily, it is a requirement in the Catholic Church.  Every member of the Vatican City is celibate.

Concerning abstinence from eating meats, I mentioned Fridays during Lent, which is fact in every Catholic Country.

It has fulfilled all the prophecies, not 10%, not 33%, all of them!

Peace

[matt1]

Scripture mentions forbidding meat and marriage
None of those men who took vows of celibacy were forbidden from marriage
They had the option to get married and have a family
They could have been like many of the Catholic laity who are married and still ministers of the word

They CHOSE to be celibate.  No one forced them to take a vow of celibacy
If they wanted to get married they had the option to take the vocation of marriage
Instead they followed what Paul recommended as a higher vocation, a calling that allows them to be more focused on God, growing in Holiness, and sheparding a flock

Once again, in the Catholic Church, anyone who took a vow of celibacy had the freedom to do so.  Therefore, none of them were forbidden from marriage.

Telling people to eat fish instead of steak or pork for six or seven fridays of the year is not forbidding meat.
Even during lent, if you eat meat 6 days of the week, how can that be considered a Doctrine forbidding people to eat meat.
The tradition is based in the idea of denying oneself to focus on something greater.

There are Religions where meat is forbidden
Catholicism is not one of them.

Also, the Church does teach that there is more merit in hidden prayer and hidden good works that no one can see and praise you for, for then you have recieved your reward.

Ash Wednesday is a day where ash is applied to the forehead and we are reminded that ashes and dust we shall return.
Ash Wednesday derives its name from the practice of placing ashes on the foreheads of adherents as a sign of mourning and repentance to God
This practice is common in much of Christendom, being celebrated by Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and some Baptist denominations.

The act echoes the ancient Near Eastern tradition of throwing ashes over one's head to signify repentance before God (as related in the Bible). The priest or minister says one or both of the following when applying the ashes:


Remember that thou art dust, and to dust thou shalt return.
—Genesis 3:19

Turn away from sin and be faithful to the Gospel.
—Mark 1:15

I dont see how that is an evil practice

[LightHammer]

In my many years living in a Catholic country, I know celibacy is not a vow that people make voluntarily, it is a requirement in the Catholic Church.  Every member of the Vatican City is celibate.

Concerning abstinence from eating meats, I mentioned Fridays during Lent, which is fact in every Catholic Country.

It has fulfilled all the prophecies, not 10%, not 33%, all of them!

Peace

Thats a lie.

No one is forced to become celibate because no one is forced to become a priest. In the Coptic Catholic Church and the Ethiopian Catholic Church one can not become a priest unless they're married.

Its only the Latin Rite that is strict on celibacy for priests. Deacons are married all the time. One is at my parish. Bishops are of course celibate.

[matt1]

Talking Donkey,
I applaud you for at least having the Charity and sense within your heart to recognize Catholics as Christians
I grew up in an anti catholic household and most non Catholic Christians I have met do not think we are Christians but hellbound Pagans.

However, some of the things you say are false.
Yes, the people in the Vatican belong to the Latin rite.  It is the current practice of the Latin rite for Shepards of the Church to take vows of Chastity.
Those who have taken vows of Celibacy, with their free will, made a vow, after prayer and discernment that God was calling them to the higher and more sacred vocation of Chastity.

This practice was recommended by our Lord and Paul.
In the book of Revelation remember that the 144,000 were virgins that "did not defile themselves with women".

[LightHammer]

Talking Donkey,
I applaud you for at least having the Charity and sense within your heart to recognize Catholics as Christians
I grew up in an anti catholic household and most non Catholic Christians I have met do not think we are Christians but hellbound Pagans.

However, some of the things you say are false.
Yes, the people in the Vatican belong to the Latin rite.  It is the current practice of the Latin rite for Shepards of the Church to take vows of Chastity.
Those who have taken vows of Celibacy, with their free will, made a vow, after prayer and discernment that God was calling them to the higher and more sacred vocation of Chastity.

This practice was recommended by our Lord and Paul.
In the book of Revelation remember that the 144,000 were virgins that "did not defile themselves with women".

That is also inaccurate.

The Vatican is manned by priests and deacons from every rite within the Catholic Church not just our Latin Rite.

[Talking Donkey]

In my many years living in a Catholic country, I know celibacy is not a vow that people make voluntarily, it is a requirement in the Catholic Church.  Every member of the Vatican City is celibate.

Concerning abstinence from eating meats, I mentioned Fridays during Lent, which is fact in every Catholic Country.

It has fulfilled all the prophecies, not 10%, not 33%, all of them!

Peace

Thats a lie.

No one is forced to become celibate because no one is forced to become a priest. In the Coptic Catholic Church and the Ethiopian Catholic Church one can not become a priest unless they're married.

Its only the Latin Rite that is strict on celibacy for priests. Deacons are married all the time. One is at my parish. Bishops are of course celibate.

If I am told I have the freedom to marry or be a celibate priest, that is not freedom to marry.

If a priest that gets married is expelled from ministry because he is married, that is not freedom to marry.

Many priests that molested children were moved to another parish, while those that got married got expelled.

That is not freedom to marry.  That is a teaching to abstain from marriage.

Peace

[matt1]

If a Bishop moves/covers for a pedophile he isnt following Church protocal
where im from, if a priest get's accused of Pedophilia he immediately loses his faculties and is placed under investigation
If he get's convicted he's gone.  

I have known many priests in my life.  Probably well over 100.  I have not known one who was a convicted pedophile.  I have known a Protestant pastor who was a good friend of my Mom (a seventh day adventist) who molested a girl.

The issue of Pedophilia takes place amongst a tiny percentage of priests.  Maybe 1%.  It's just as, if not more prevalent among non Catholic Pastors, and far more prevalent among teachers and social workers but you dont see the media making as big a deal about it.
The media hates the Church and singles it out.  

Sorry Lighthammer for giving incorrect information about the Vatican.  

Okay, those priests who took a vow of celibacy made a promise to God to be celibate.  When they get married, they have broken a vow that they made to God.
No one forced them to make that vow.
This causes scandal.  Many priests that get married are sick of being a priest, are rebelious against the teachings of the Church, and are not very passionate about the priestly ministry anway.

The last married priest I met said he lost faith in God (became an atheist) before getting married.
When the Scripture speaks of forbidding marriage, it is not talking about a religion that asks a tiny percentage of its people to take a vow of Celibacy to God for a particular ministry.

"If I am told I have the freedom to marry or be a celibate priest, that is not freedom to marry."

If anyone tells you the Church only gives you those options that person is a liar.
I have already let you know, if a man wants to be a married priest, there are many rites within the Catholic Church where he can become a Married Catholic Priest.
Please get that through your head.
THERE ARE PLENTY OF MARRIED CATHOLIC PRIESTS!
Your arguement is invalid and what you say is false.

[Talking Donkey]

The catholic priest Alberto Cutié left the catholic church because of the mandatory celibacy rule he disagreed with.  Now he is a married minister in another denomination.

Historical fact.

Peace

[matt1]

He could have become a Catholic Priest and gotten married
That is a Fact!

[matt1]

1 Cor 7:1
It is good for a man to not touch a woman...

7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do...
27Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife.
29 From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs —how he can please the Lord.
33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife—
34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband.
35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.
38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.

So, Scripture says over and over again that the Unmarried person has more potential to grow in holiness and serve the Lord with an undivided heart.
Scripture says that the Celibate vocation is more Sacred and better than the married vocation.

Since this is clearly true and Biblical, why are there so few Celibate Protestant Ministers?

[Talking Donkey]

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

The fact is that the Vatican required, that is a fact, they required celibacy on thousands of priests as a requirement for their ministry.  The fact that some corners of Catholicism are the exception, does not invalidate the prophecy and does not invalidate the fact that is a doctrine of demons.  After 305, the law became definite.

The Catholic Encyclopedia starts the definition of "Celibacy" as follows:  Celibary is the ecclecisastical LAW in the Western Church, imposed on clerics forbidding those in the married state from being ordained and those in holy orders from Marrying. Alberto Cutié would had to jump fences to get permission.

That is a doctrine of demons.  Why don't you go around and tell those Catholics practicing that doctrine of demons that it is satanic? Why tolerate it?

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines "abstinence" as follows:

The Church law regarding abstinence does not forbid foods because they are impure; it considers abstaining a means of spiritual good; it is reasonable in demand and application.  The law of abstinence is binding to all over 14 years of age; the obligatino to abstain, to fast, i.e., limiting oneself to but one full meal and two lighter meals in full day is binding on all Catholics from the age of 21 to 59 years. It forbids the eating o meat and soups of meat stock, gravy and sauces of meat.   On days of complete abstinence, these meat based foods  may not be eaten at all.

That's the law.... according to the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Peace

[LightHammer]

That's on certain holy days guy. The Bible speaks plainly about the Jews observing abstinence during holy days.

St. Paul wasn't talking about people who refrain from meat because they're fasting during special observances. That's just silly seeing how he held to Jewish custom and this did that himself.

What he was talking about was a group that outlawed meat because they viewed impure to consume. More than likely he was referring to an early gnostic sect.

Try again.

[matt1]

The Scriptures that I have shown you promoting celibacy far outnumber the Scripture you gave me in support of your view
Celibacy is a higher vocation than marriage
That is very Biblical

If a person makes a vow of celibacy they do so with their free will and because they have discerned that God is calling them to be celibate.
The Church would not encourage someone to take a vow of celibacy if they didnt think God was calling them to it.

You misinterpret the Scriptures that you give
There have been religions that say that every fleshly pleasure is unclean and sinful.
There have been Heresies that believe Sex is always evil and defiles those who partake in it.
It is belief's like that which fit your Scripture on "Doctrine of Devils"...

I have given you plenty of Scriptures which extol Celibacy as better than marriage.
There is nothing wrong with one rite within the Church to decide that they want their Pastors to choose the higher calling
For an unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs, how he can please the Lord
The Married man is concerned about the affairs of the world, how he can please his wife, and his interests are divided

It makes sense, if the Bible says the Married Man's interests are divided, than it makes sense the Church desires priests whose interests are not divided, who are concerned about the Lord's affairs, how they can please the Lord.
Pure and simple.

Answer my question, why are there so few celibate Protestant Pastors since the Bible makes it very clear that Celibacy is more suitable for growing in Holiness than marriage?

[Lively Stone]

Answer my question, why are there so few celibate Protestant Pastors since the Bible makes it very clear that Celibacy is more suitable for growing in Holiness than marriage?

Oh, really?

God instituted marriage as something good and desirable. He revels in the coming together of a man and wife who love Him. Paul's remarks about remaining unmarried are his opinion alone and he says so. His opinion is good, but make no mistake---there is no calling of the Lord on anyone that is higher than any other.

There are fewer celibate pastors because they are following what God tells them to do and not some rule-toting religion that seems to think that the marital act is something to avoid if one wants to be holy.

[Talking Donkey]

That's on certain holy days guy.

In 1Tim 4... the Bible declares two different practices "satanic", i.e., forbidding to marry and abstaining from meat... and your answer is.... only on certain days?  Only certain parts of Catholicism?

Do you believe a practice is satanic only when people do it every day?  Or when it is required everywhere?

She is the mother of harlots and Satan is the king at deceiving people.

Check out poison in the hardware store, it is 99.9% good stuff and 0.1 % deadly stuff.  That is why it works so well.

You are not the first Catholic, the people in old city Babylon practiced Catholicism way before Christ.  The rosary?  Already in old city Babylon, so does celibate nuns, celibate priests, confession to the priests for absolution, worship of the Madonna with child, purgatory, worship of the wafer, praying to statues, priest with long robes, Lent, etc... read the book "The Two Babylons" by Hislop.

Peace

[matt1]

The Rosary did not exist in ancient Babylon

As far as abstaining from meat is concerned, fasting is a good and holy practice.  Not everything is evil when done in moderation.  The Bible speaks about how immoral and destructive escessive drinking of wine can be, but Jesus' first public miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding party.    

If the Church asks people to abstain from meat 6 days out of the year (365), that is definately not excessive, harsh, or evil by any stretch of the imagination.
Even on those days we are permitted to eat meat, fish for example.  Isnt fish meat?
So, every day of the year Catholics are allowed to eat meat.  There are six days out of the year where we are asked to make a little dietery sacrifice.  Many people forget to do this.  It isnt a big deal!  
If you think that is evil, you need to get a life.
You take your Scriptures out of context.

This seems like the most ignorant and easily refutable statement I have seen on this forum so far "the people in old city Babylon practiced Catholicism way before Christ".  Oh so they believed in the Trinity?
Well if they didnt believe that Jesus was their Lord and savior than they weren't Catholic and did not practice Catholicism  
The Church does not permit the Adoration (Worship) of anyone other than God himself and I can prove this from the official teachings of the Church (the Catechism)
You show me in the Catechism where we are permitted to worship Idols and you have yourself an arguement.
In fact, dont come back here again and claim we are Idolators unless you can show me in the Catechism (the official teachings of the Church) that it is okay to Adore (worship) someone other than God.

If you cant find it in the Catechism, you have no grounds to say that the Churches teaches people to worship other Gods, and I'll just have to ignore you rather than continue to waste my time conversing with someone who has lost his ability to reason.

You have destroyed your credibility my friend.  Your comment about the Ancient Babylonians being Catholic is so absurd it is funny.  

Heres what the Church teaches about Idolatry. (did ancient Babylonians believe this too?)

From the Catechism:
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "
You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods.
"5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him
2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,"
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration.
Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it.
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion.
These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons.
Wearing charms is also reprehensible.
Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Dear anticatholic,
Your favorite lintany is that Catholics are idolators.
So, there you have it, the Church condemns the new age movement and Idolatry.
Let's say the Church is Pagan.
If you were correct, Than that would mean she is the Pagan Religion that Christians called their Church for more than 1500 years, it was the only Church on the face of the earth.
It is the only Pagan religion that put together and preached the New testament Canon.
It is the only pagan religion that teaches "Jesus saved us from our sins and worship and adoration belong to God alone.
It is the only Pagan religion that condemns the New age movement, abortion, contraception, atheism, polygomy, divorce, adultery, socialism, and many other forms causes of spiritual death.
It is the only Pagan religion that teaches that Jesus is God and all Scripture is the word of God.
So, it is the Pagan Religion that teaches almost all the Christian Doctrines.
It is the Pagan religion that you get your Bible from.
It is no Pagan Religion at all!

[LightHammer]

That's on certain holy days guy.

In 1Tim 4... the Bible declares two different practices "satanic", i.e., forbidding to marry and abstaining from meat... and your answer is.... only on certain days?  Only certain parts of Catholicism?

Do you believe a practice is satanic only when people do it every day?  Or when it is required everywhere?

She is the mother of harlots and Satan is the king at deceiving people.

Check out poison in the hardware store, it is 99.9% good stuff and 0.1 % deadly stuff.  That is why it works so well.

You are not the first Catholic, the people in old city Babylon practiced Catholicism way before Christ.  The rosary?  Already in old city Babylon, so does celibate nuns, celibate priests, confession to the priests for absolution, worship of the Madonna with child, purgatory, worship of the wafer, praying to statues, priest with long robes, Lent, etc... read the book "The Two Babylons" by Hislop.

Peace

The Two Babylons? There's no way you're that simple. People are still buying that Scottish dude's junk? That explains everything. So you really are a racist aren't old donkey.

It has been recognized by scholars as discredited and has been called a "tribute to historical inaccuracy and know-nothing religious bigotry" with "shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty" and a "nonsensical thesis".

Book Reviews: Honesty is the Best Policy


How about you read Ralph Woodrow's Babylon Connection and call me in the morning.

[Talking Donkey]

The Rosary did not exist in ancient Babylon

As far as abstaining from meat is concerned, fasting is a good and holy practice.  Not everything is evil when done in moderation.  The Bible speaks about how immoral and destructive escessive drinking of wine can be, but Jesus' first public miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding party.    

If the Church asks people to abstain from meat 6 days out of the year (365), that is definately not excessive, harsh, or evil by any stretch of the imagination.
Even on those days we are permitted to eat meat, fish for example.  Isnt fish meat?
So, every day of the year Catholics are allowed to eat meat.  There are six days out of the year where we are asked to make a little dietery sacrifice.  Many people forget to do this.  It isnt a big deal!  
If you think that is evil, you need to get a life.
You take your Scriptures out of context.

This seems like the most ignorant and easily refutable statement I have seen on this forum so far "the people in old city Babylon practiced Catholicism way before Christ".  Oh so they believed in the Trinity?
Well if they didnt believe that Jesus was their Lord and savior than they weren't Catholic and did not practice Catholicism  
The Church does not permit the Adoration (Worship) of anyone other than God himself and I can prove this from the official teachings of the Church (the Catechism)
You show me in the Catechism where we are permitted to worship Idols and you have yourself an arguement.
In fact, dont come back here again and claim we are Idolators unless you can show me in the Catechism (the official teachings of the Church) that it is okay to Adore (worship) someone other than God.

If you cant find it in the Catechism, you have no grounds to say that the Churches teaches people to worship other Gods, and I'll just have to ignore you rather than continue to waste my time conversing with someone who has lost his ability to reason.

You have destroyed your credibility my friend.  Your comment about the Ancient Babylonians being Catholic is so absurd it is funny.  

Heres what the Church teaches about Idolatry. (did ancient Babylonians believe this too?)

From the Catechism:
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "
You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods.
"5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him
2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,"
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration.
Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47
2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it.
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion.
These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons.
Wearing charms is also reprehensible.
Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Dear anticatholic,
Your favorite lintany is that Catholics are idolators.
So, there you have it, the Church condemns the new age movement and Idolatry.
Let's say the Church is Pagan.
If you were correct, Than that would mean she is the Pagan Religion that Christians called their Church for more than 1500 years, it was the only Church on the face of the earth.
It is the only Pagan religion that put together and preached the New testament Canon.
It is the only pagan religion that teaches "Jesus saved us from our sins and worship and adoration belong to God alone.
It is the only Pagan religion that condemns the New age movement, abortion, contraception, atheism, polygomy, divorce, adultery, socialism, and many other forms causes of spiritual death.
It is the only Pagan religion that teaches that Jesus is God and all Scripture is the word of God.
So, it is the Pagan Religion that teaches almost all the Christian Doctrines.
It is the Pagan religion that you get your Bible from.
It is no Pagan Religion at all!

Living single is good, but not if the Church TEACHES it as a REQUIREMENT.

Fasting is good, but not if the Church TEACHES as a REQUIREMENT that the Bible specifically called doctrine of demons (ABSTAINING FROM MEATS).

Giving 10% of my salary to the Church is good, but not if the Church teaches I am robbing God if I do not do it.

Peace

[FireSword]

I agree with you on that one Donk.

[matt1]

The Church says anyone is free to get married
Those who take a vow of celibacy are to discern that it is God's will that they be celibate so as to be more focused and commited to him
If a person has not discerned through much prayer that they are called to a vow of Chastity, than they should not take the vow and they should get married.
And no one is forbidden to do so, accept for those who have made a promise to God.

You can become a married Catholic Priest as I have already explained

[Talking Donkey]

The Church says anyone is free to get married
Those who take a vow of celibacy are to discern that it is God's will that they be celibate so as to be more focused and commited to him
If a person has not discerned through much prayer that they are called to a vow of Chastity, than they should not take the vow and they should get married.
And no one is forbidden to do so, accept for those who have made a promise to God.

You can become a married Catholic Priest as I have already explained

And you fail to  admit that what we are talking about is that a demon inspired organization came up with the idea to teach abstinence from sex to all those that are ordained to be in the ministry. And the Church in Rome is guilty of that.  Just because the priests have the freedom to quit being priests and get married, that does not free the Vatican from the demonic practice of teaching that priest have to be celibate. 

I was raised in a Catholic country and went to Catholic School, and I read hundreds of Catholic books.  That is the truth, so it is stated in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which I read from cover to cover.

Peace

[LightHammer]

The Church says anyone is free to get married
Those who take a vow of celibacy are to discern that it is God's will that they be celibate so as to be more focused and commited to him
If a person has not discerned through much prayer that they are called to a vow of Chastity, than they should not take the vow and they should get married.
And no one is forbidden to do so, accept for those who have made a promise to God.

You can become a married Catholic Priest as I have already explained

And you fail to  admit that what we are talking about is that a demon inspired organization came up with the idea to teach abstinence from sex to all those that are ordained to be in the ministry. And the Church in Rome is guilty of that.  Just because the priests have the freedom to quit being priests and get married, that does not free the Vatican from the demonic practice of teaching that priest have to be celibate. 

I was raised in a Catholic country and went to Catholic School, and I read hundreds of Catholic books.  That is the truth, so it is stated in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which I read from cover to cover.

Peace

While I can not prove it I personal believe the art about reading hundreds of books to be a blantant lie. I doubt you've read more than ten books let alone a hundred.

Priests don't have to be celibate in the Catholic Church. Married men become priests all the time. We have millions of ordained deacons, millions. In the Coptic Catholic Church you can't even be a priest without being married.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[matt1]

At least its coming from a talking Donkey.
A man of prudence would have thought more before posting something so asinine as "ancient Babylonians practiced Catholicism".

Then say I read a hundred books about Catholicism.

If you read 100 books about Catholicism you would know it is idiotic to claim that it was the religion of Ancient Babylon.
Perhaps you read 100 books about Catholicism by anticatholic authors?
Then you would have an excuse for making that moronic declaration.

The fact that the Pope is in the book of world records as the greatest religious leader is because the Holy Spirit is with him and the Church, and the Vicar of Christ is being obediant to his masters commandment to go forth and make disciples of all Nations.

[Talking Donkey]

In Rev 17:5, Babylon is described as the mother of harlots and the Vatican is the mother of harlots according to the following Scriptures:

     a)  Isa 1:21 (for killing Protestants and Jews during the dark ages and the Spanish Inquisition)

     b) Jer 2:13-28; 1Cor 10:7; Eze 16:1-34 (for using statues for religious purpose and praying to dead people ... saints and Mary)


In Rev 17:5, Babylon is described as the mother of abominations and the Vatican can be seen as the mother of abomination based on the following Scriptures:

     a) Deu 7:25-26; 2Chr 15:8; Eze 16:36 and 1 Peter 4:3 (for using statues in religious services).

     b) Jer 44 (for worshiping Mary as the Queen of Heaven).

     c) Isa 1:13 (for using incense in church).  The incense allowed by God was of a secret composition.  He allowed no other.

God killed two of Aaron's sons for using the wrong incense (Exo 30:9, 34-38; Lev 10:1-2).

     d) Prov 28:9 (for not obeying the Word of God, the list is too long to post here, maybe another post).

     e) Deu 18:10-12; 1Sam 28:7-14; 1Chr 10:13-14 (for going after visionaries, i.e., people that can see saints or Virgin apparitions, spirit mediums).

Peace

[Talking Donkey]

If God considers statues of pagan gods to be evil, if God considers stuff used in pagan religions stuff not to be coveted and bring up the wrath of God, why would the Vatican collect so many statues and images of pagan gods?  Because it is the Mother of all harlots, that's why...

Ex 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Deut 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.

Is 21:9 ...And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.

Josh 6:18 And ye, in any wise keep yourselves from the accursed thing, lest ye make yourselves accursed, when ye take of the accursed thing, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it.
Josh 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
15 And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.
20 And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:
21 When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.
25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

P.S. The name "Achan" means literally... trouble.







Peace

[matt1]

More from the talking Donkey that claims the Ancient Babylonians practiced Catholicism.

There is nothing in the new Covenant condemning images.
Our Lord told the Ancient Israelites not to make a graven image but then later he commanded them to.

If you saw a bunch of Catholics who were dying and they were gazing at a golden serpent to be healed of their wounds and infirmities you would say for sure those Catholics are practicing Idolatry.

Well, if you know the Old Testament you will realize that God asked Moses to create a Golden serpent and all who looked at it would be healed.


What if the Ancient Israelites were like you and said "No way!  We dont need a golden serpent.  The Bible says not make a graven image!  We have God, we dont need Moses!"

Well, they would all be dead.  
 The Bible isnt always clear is it?  God says do not make a graven image and then later he commands them to do what he formerly told them not to do.

The point is, that was a time where worship of graven images was common practice.  The command to not make a graven image must be taken into the context of "do not worship a graven image.  

The Ark of the Covenant had a golden mercy seat with Golden Cherubim.  That is a graven image.  People use to bow before the Ark.  The Ark was so sacred that a man touched it unworthily and dropped dead.


But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.
Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281).
Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true.
God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!


For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.
Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).


If Catholics made something like that you would complain about how Idolatrous it is.  But since God commanded it in the Scripture, you will  now make up some excuse.  

David's plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."


So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.


The point is, talking Donkey, that you have no point.  The Catholic Church forbids the worship of images.  

You say the Catholic Church promotes the practice of Idolatry.  Guess what my friend, I can PROVE from the official teachings of the Church that the worship of anyone other than God is Condemned.

So, the Church promotes the worship of God Alone!  No points for you.

Next time you come back here, show me in the Catechism (the official teachings of the Church) where Idolatry is promoted.  If you cant find it in the Catechism, than you lose!

Is a nativity set evil and Idolatrous?

Also, people God killed for burning incense the wrong way?
That was a time where people Got killed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, people who were uncircumsized were unclean and you weren't suppose to associate with them, genocide of gentiles was okay, so was polygomy, a woman on her period defiled every thing she touched, people were killed for using the name of God.

Show me something in the New Covenant that speaks about not burning incense.
Read acts 15 about how the Apostles had a council that did away with practices that were very important to the Scriptures of the time.
Goes to show how solo-scriptura they were.

You get your Bible from the Catholic Church.  God promised the gates of Hell will not prevail against his Church.  History shows clearly which church dates back to the time Christ made that promise.
History makes it very clear which Church Christ was talking about for those who have common sense and the ability to reason.

[Talking Donkey]

At least its coming from a talking Donkey.  A man of prudence would have thought more before posting ...

Haven't you heard?  It is written:

2Pet 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Peace

[Talking Donkey]

Next time you come back here, show me in the Catechism (the official teachings of the Church) where Idolatry is promoted.  If you cant find it in the Catechism, than you lose!

Ok, I will.

Go to the Vatican version of the 10 commandments:  http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

There you will see they eliminated commandment # 2, which reads:

You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.

In order to keep the number of 10, they split commandment # 10 into two commandments.  Ask any Jew, they are experts on the 10 commandments.  They eliminated the commandment against idolatry because it exposed their evil practices.

That is the only commandment that God said, if you break it, your children will pay, and your grand children down to the 4th generation.  He has a short fuse with it.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? ...  YEAH!  What agreement has a Christian Church with Statues of Zeus or any other pagan god?

1 Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Peace

[matt1]

The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently.
Protestant listing:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Thou shalt not covet

Latin Catholic listing:

Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord's day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods

The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Exodous 34 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church.

Chapter and verse divisions are a medieval invention, however, and numbering systems of the Ten Words (Commandments), the manner in which they are grouped, and the "short-hand" used for them, vary among various religious groups.

Exodus 20 is the version most often referred to when one speaks of the Ten Commandments, so it will be our reference point here. Here's how the relevant portion of Exodus 20 reads:

2    I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3    Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
4    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6    And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7    Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8    Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9    Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10    But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11    For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12    Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13    Thou shalt not kill. 1

14    Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15    Thou shalt not steal.
16    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

So we have 16 verses and Ten Commandments (this we know because of Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 which speak of the "Ten Words" of God). How to group these verses and Commands? Jews,  Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants have different listings.

The Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, and Protestants have the same list.  Not one is necessarily better or more biblical than the other.
   
When the Commandments are listed, they are often listed in short-hand form, such that, for ex., verses 8, 9, 10 and 11 concerning the Sabbath become simply "Remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy." Because Latin Catholics group 3, 4, 5 and 6 together as all pertaining to the concept "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," we are accused of having "dropped" the commandment against idols.

That Eastern Catholics list the Commandments differently never enters the equation for people who think this way; they are simply against those they probably call the "Romish popers" and that's that (I hope it doesn't bother them that Jews would accuse them of totally forgetting the First Commandment, or that Latin Catholics could accuse some Protestants of skipping lightly over the commandments against lust.

Bottom line:

                     chapter and verse numbering in the Bible came about in the Middle Ages.  PROTESTANTS DID NOT EXIST in the middle ages.

the Catholic Church (which includes Eastern Catholics, too) HAS TWO DIFFERENT NUMBERING SYSTEMS for the Commandments given, ONE AGREEING WITH THE MOST COMMON PROTESTANT ENUMERATION

the Latin Church's numbering is the most common in the Catholic Church and is the one referred to by Protestants who, IGNORING EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES, accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped a Commandment;

•   NO COMMANDMENT HAS BEEN DROPPED, in any case, but the Latin Church's shorthand for the Commandments looks different than the typical Protestant version because of how the Commandments are grouped;
everyone knows how to find Exodus 20 in the Bible, anyway -- even us Latin Catholics; and in the Catholic Bible it says the same thing

Brother Ass, you never showed me where the Catechism promotes Idolatry. The Catechism does not promote the worship of graven images or the worship of anyone other than God.
Such things are condemned in the Catechism.
Even in the Old Testament graven images were used and constructed and it was mandated by God. It is not a sin to construct a graven image or God would not have told moses to do so.
It is a sin to worship the image and the Church forbids us from doing so.
Any Catholic who worships a graven images disobeys the Church and commits Idolatry. The Commandment to worship no foreign God's is in the Catholic ten commandments.
That would include the commandment to not worship graven images. The Second commandment of the non Latin list is essential the same commandment as the first one, and that is why it isnt listed.
You have not proved your case for Idolatry here.

[FireSword]

With 32,000 different rites only 1000 of them allow marriages. So to conclude

Priests cannot marry, unless they are part of one of the 1000  exclusive rites.

[Talking Donkey]

The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently.
You have not proved your case for Idolatry here.

Is that what you say to yourself?

I went to Catholic School, I had to memorize them ten and # 2 was not on the list, missing in action.

I was raised in a Catholic Country, most of my relatives are Catholic and I asked them, ... # 2 is missing in action to >90 % of the Catholics.

My friend send his child to the local Catholic School  here in America, do you know what his child learned?  He learned to bow down before the statue of Mary in front of his class building, every time he walked before it.  His dad told me he had a conversation with him about not doing that.  

Thou shalt not bow down before them !!! Nor pray to them !!!!













I love Google images, because they have nothing to do with my theology, it has everything to do with history and real life.

Peace

[matt1]

Does that mean the Jews in Israel worship a wall?
they bow before it
they rock back and forth as they read psalms before it
they take pieces with them

I guess David worshipped the Ark because he prostrated himself before the Ark.
According to you perhaps?
I suppose in Karate class when someone bows to their instructer, they commit Idolatry with him?

Nothing in the Catholic Church says that we are permitted to worship any statues.
To worship anyone other than God is a sin according to the Catechism

By the way, you said we have 32,000 rites?
 The Catechism lists seven.
These rites so listed: Latin, Byzantine, Alexandrian, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, and Chaldean,2 are actually families of liturgical expression. These rites are the descendants of the liturgical practices that originated in centers of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria.

There might be more so I will do some research,
I dont think there are 32,000 rites.  I dont even think there are 32 rites.