The Galileo Controversy.

[Selene]

Below is a weblink of the Galileo Controversy.  The weblink gives a better explaination. Please read before you post.  Thank you.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy

[Jimmy]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

[AVZ]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

I fully agree.
And so would every scientist and lawyer.

[AVZ]

Below is a weblink of the Galileo Controversy.  The weblink gives a better explaination. Please read before you post.  Thank you.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy

Especially the last paragraph of the story I find particularly inconsistent.

The premise is made that the Church was correct because, as it did show centuries afterwards, Galileo was only partially wrong (allthough the Church didn't know that at that time).

This however raises the question, if Galileo would not have disputed the scientific claim with the Church, and parrotted that the sun was not the center of the universe, and that the earth would not revolve around the sun...than the Church would still have been wrong!

I would like to add a more technical detail.
As correctly stated in the website, there is no fixed center of the universe as bodies in the universe are moving, and the universe itself is expanding.
Technically and scientifically however it cannot be proven that Galileo was wrong!
The sun could have been the center of the universe at the time Galileo made his claim. But since the universe is not equally expanding to all sides, we are not able to verify this premise.

Fact remains that:
A) The claim by the Church that the sun is pertinently not the center of the universe - is at all times wrong.
B) The claim that the sun is the center of the universe - can at all times be true, however it is unverifyable.

[Selene]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

It's pretty much in consistent with the RCC account.  Galileo was not tortured at all.  Your weblinks says that Galileo was condemned for heresy because he taught that the sun was at the center of the universe.  Do you believe that the sun is at the center of the universe.  According to your first weblink, this is what it says:

Finally, in April 1633 Galileo was called before the Holy Office. This was tantamount to a charge of heresy, and he was urged to repent (Shea and Artigas, 183f). Specifically, he had been charged with teaching and defending the Copernican doctrine that holds that the Sun is at the center of the universe and that the earth moves. This doctrine had been deemed heretical in 1616, and Copernicus' book had placed on the index of prohibited books, pending correction.

If the Catholic Church supported this, it would hold that we must believe everything that science says including the riduclous and unproven idea that the sun is at the center of the universe.  Now, this is what your second weblink says:

A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence

Now, let's take a look at the third weblink:

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633, "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world", against the 1616 condemnation, since "it was decided at the Holy Congregation [...] on 25 Feb 1616 that [...] the Holy Office would give you an injunction to abandon this doctrine, not to teach it to others, not to defend it, and not to treat of it; and that if you did not acquiesce in this injunction, you should be imprisoned".[36]

Your fourth weblink doesn't say anything about Galileo's dealings with the Church, so let's go to your fifth and last weblink.  

Bellarmine stated his views on the Galileo controversy in an April 12, 1615 letter to Father Foscarini, a highly-respected monk from Naples.  He indicated that Galileo could speak about the Copernican model "hypothetically, and not absolutely."  Bellarmine wrote that "to affirm that the Sun, in its very truth, is at the center of the universe...is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our faith by contradicting the Scriptures."

With "nineteen centuries of organized thought piling up to smother him," Galileo pleaded--in a powerful summary of thoughts on Scriptural interpretation and the evidence concerning the nature of the universe--his case in his Letter to the Grand Duchess.  He asked that his idea not be condemned "without understanding it, without hearing it, without even having seen it."  Galileo's eloquent Letter was forwarded to Rome where, in the words of one historian, "it sank out of sight as softly as a penny in a snowban

So, what exactly is your argument?  You want the Catholic Church to support Galileo's theory that the sun is at the center of the universe?  Do you even believe that the sun is at the center of the entire universe?

[Selene]

Below is a weblink of the Galileo Controversy.  The weblink gives a better explaination. Please read before you post.  Thank you.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy

Especially the last paragraph of the story I find particularly inconsistent.

The premise is made that the Church was correct because, as it did show centuries afterwards, Galileo was only partially wrong (allthough the Church didn't know that at that time).

This however raises the question, if Galileo would not have disputed the scientific claim with the Church, and parrotted that the sun was not the center of the universe, and that the earth would not revolve around the sun...than the Church would still have been wrong!

I would like to add a more technical detail.
As correctly stated in the website, there is no fixed center of the universe as bodies in the universe are moving, and the universe itself is expanding.
Technically and scientifically however it cannot be proven that Galileo was wrong!
The sun could have been the center of the universe at the time Galileo made his claim. But since the universe is not equally expanding to all sides, we are not able to verify this premise.

Fact remains that:
A) The claim by the Church that the sun is pertinently not the center of the universe - is at all times wrong.
B) The claim that the sun is the center of the universe - can at all times be true, however it is unverifyable.

It was Galileo who believed that the sun IS at the center of the universe.  While he is correct that the earth moved, he is incorrect to say that the sun IS at the center of the universe.  

The last paragraph of the Catholic weblink stated the following:  

It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo's views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo's views—and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them—the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved.

[LightHammer]

Ok I read all of the weblinks.

Galileo was never even charged with heresy. He was brought under investigation for being a suspect and was never formally charged.

He was placed under house arrest because of that suspicion.

From his own mouth:


I have been judged vehemently suspect of heresy, that is, of having held and believed that the sun in the centre of the universe and immoveable, and that the earth is not at the center of same, and that it does move. Wishing however, to remove from the minds of your Eminences and all faithful Christians this vehement suspicion reasonably conceived against me, I abjure with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, I curse and detest the said errors and heresies, and generally all and every error, heresy, and sect contrary to the Holy Catholic Church. (Quoted in Shea and Artigas 194)


He was never even charged with heresy so your arguments are even more worthless than they were before.

[Jimmy]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

It's pretty much in consistent with the RCC account.  Galileo was not tortured at all.  Your weblinks says that Galileo was condemned for heresy because he taught that the sun was at the center of the universe.  Do you believe that the sun is at the center of the universe.  According to your first weblink, this is what it says:

Finally, in April 1633 Galileo was called before the Holy Office. This was tantamount to a charge of heresy, and he was urged to repent (Shea and Artigas, 183f). Specifically, he had been charged with teaching and defending the Copernican doctrine that holds that the Sun is at the center of the universe and that the earth moves. This doctrine had been deemed heretical in 1616, and Copernicus' book had placed on the index of prohibited books, pending correction.

If the Catholic Church supported this, it would hold that we must believe everything that science says including the riduclous and unproven idea that the sun is at the center of the universe.  Now, this is what your second weblink says:

A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence

Now, let's take a look at the third weblink:

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633, "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world", against the 1616 condemnation, since "it was decided at the Holy Congregation [...] on 25 Feb 1616 that [...] the Holy Office would give you an injunction to abandon this doctrine, not to teach it to others, not to defend it, and not to treat of it; and that if you did not acquiesce in this injunction, you should be imprisoned".[36]

Your fourth weblink doesn't say anything about Galileo's dealings with the Church, so let's go to your fifth and last weblink.  

Bellarmine stated his views on the Galileo controversy in an April 12, 1615 letter to Father Foscarini, a highly-respected monk from Naples.  He indicated that Galileo could speak about the Copernican model "hypothetically, and not absolutely."  Bellarmine wrote that "to affirm that the Sun, in its very truth, is at the center of the universe...is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our faith by contradicting the Scriptures."

With "nineteen centuries of organized thought piling up to smother him," Galileo pleaded--in a powerful summary of thoughts on Scriptural interpretation and the evidence concerning the nature of the universe--his case in his Letter to the Grand Duchess.  He asked that his idea not be condemned "without understanding it, without hearing it, without even having seen it."  Galileo's eloquent Letter was forwarded to Rome where, in the words of one historian, "it sank out of sight as softly as a penny in a snowban

So, what exactly is your argument?  You want the Catholic Church to support Galileo's theory that the sun is at the center of the universe?  Do you even believe that the sun is at the center of the entire universe?

You have got to be kidding.  My argument was/is that the RCC was wrong.  Absolutely and completely wrong.  Their position had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact of the solar system not being the same as the universe.  Even your suggestion to that  point is ludicrous. The churches position was, quite simply, that the sun revolved around the earth and they presented the Scriptures they thought supported that view.  They of course were wrong.

Your adamant maintainance of such a RCC-contorted position only illustrates what I consider to be the real fallacy and danger of the RCC.  It is why I and many others like me dismiss so much of what you and the RCC says.  You would make a Nixonian politician blush with your overt misrepresentations.

[Jimmy]

Ok I read all of the weblinks.

Galileo was never even charged with heresy. He was brought under investigation for being a suspect and was never formally charged.

He was placed under house arrest because of that suspicion.

From his own mouth:


I have been judged vehemently suspect of heresy, that is, of having held and believed that the sun in the centre of the universe and immoveable, and that the earth is not at the center of same, and that it does move. Wishing however, to remove from the minds of your Eminences and all faithful Christians this vehement suspicion reasonably conceived against me, I abjure with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, I curse and detest the said errors and heresies, and generally all and every error, heresy, and sect contrary to the Holy Catholic Church. (Quoted in Shea and Artigas 194)


He was never even charged with heresy so your arguments are even more worthless than they were before.

He was never charged with heresy because he recanted, not because he was wrong.  But all of that is almost beside the point.  The fact that the church placed him under house arrest and did so for the rest of his life says about all that needs to be said about how bad the "catholic church" was.  That you would even attempt to defend it is scary.  May the head of that monster never rise again.

[LightHammer]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

It's pretty much in consistent with the RCC account.  Galileo was not tortured at all.  Your weblinks says that Galileo was condemned for heresy because he taught that the sun was at the center of the universe.  Do you believe that the sun is at the center of the universe.  According to your first weblink, this is what it says:

Finally, in April 1633 Galileo was called before the Holy Office. This was tantamount to a charge of heresy, and he was urged to repent (Shea and Artigas, 183f). Specifically, he had been charged with teaching and defending the Copernican doctrine that holds that the Sun is at the center of the universe and that the earth moves. This doctrine had been deemed heretical in 1616, and Copernicus' book had placed on the index of prohibited books, pending correction.

If the Catholic Church supported this, it would hold that we must believe everything that science says including the riduclous and unproven idea that the sun is at the center of the universe.  Now, this is what your second weblink says:

A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence

Now, let's take a look at the third weblink:

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633, "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world", against the 1616 condemnation, since "it was decided at the Holy Congregation [...] on 25 Feb 1616 that [...] the Holy Office would give you an injunction to abandon this doctrine, not to teach it to others, not to defend it, and not to treat of it; and that if you did not acquiesce in this injunction, you should be imprisoned".[36]

Your fourth weblink doesn't say anything about Galileo's dealings with the Church, so let's go to your fifth and last weblink.  

Bellarmine stated his views on the Galileo controversy in an April 12, 1615 letter to Father Foscarini, a highly-respected monk from Naples.  He indicated that Galileo could speak about the Copernican model "hypothetically, and not absolutely."  Bellarmine wrote that "to affirm that the Sun, in its very truth, is at the center of the universe...is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our faith by contradicting the Scriptures."

With "nineteen centuries of organized thought piling up to smother him," Galileo pleaded--in a powerful summary of thoughts on Scriptural interpretation and the evidence concerning the nature of the universe--his case in his Letter to the Grand Duchess.  He asked that his idea not be condemned "without understanding it, without hearing it, without even having seen it."  Galileo's eloquent Letter was forwarded to Rome where, in the words of one historian, "it sank out of sight as softly as a penny in a snowban

So, what exactly is your argument?  You want the Catholic Church to support Galileo's theory that the sun is at the center of the universe?  Do you even believe that the sun is at the center of the entire universe?

You have got to be kidding.  My argument was/is that the RCC was wrong.  Absolutely and completely wrong.  Their position had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact of the solar system not being the same as the universe.  Even your suggestion to that  point is ludicrous. The churches position was, quite simply, that the sun revolved around the earth and they presented the Scriptures they thought supported that view.  They of course were wrong.

Your adamant maintainance of such a RCC-contorted position only illustrates what I consider to be the real fallacy and danger of the RCC.  It is why I and many others like me dismiss so much of what you and the RCC says.  You would make a Nixonian politician blush with your overt misrepresentations.

Galileo was never condemned of heresy. He was only under investigation for being suspected of heresy. Don't be silly. I've used your own source. He was under house arrest because he was under investigation.

It happens even today. If you are under investigation by the authorities they try their best to keep you from fleeing. In our country they just keep you undert strict survelliance.

This is a pointless conversation.

1. This is a matter of science.

2. Galileo was never even condemned as a heretic. And even if he were. It was still a matter of sceince not faith and morals.  

[Jimmy]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

It's pretty much in consistent with the RCC account.  Galileo was not tortured at all.  Your weblinks says that Galileo was condemned for heresy because he taught that the sun was at the center of the universe.  Do you believe that the sun is at the center of the universe.  According to your first weblink, this is what it says:

Finally, in April 1633 Galileo was called before the Holy Office. This was tantamount to a charge of heresy, and he was urged to repent (Shea and Artigas, 183f). Specifically, he had been charged with teaching and defending the Copernican doctrine that holds that the Sun is at the center of the universe and that the earth moves. This doctrine had been deemed heretical in 1616, and Copernicus' book had placed on the index of prohibited books, pending correction.

If the Catholic Church supported this, it would hold that we must believe everything that science says including the riduclous and unproven idea that the sun is at the center of the universe.  Now, this is what your second weblink says:

A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence

Now, let's take a look at the third weblink:

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633, "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world", against the 1616 condemnation, since "it was decided at the Holy Congregation [...] on 25 Feb 1616 that [...] the Holy Office would give you an injunction to abandon this doctrine, not to teach it to others, not to defend it, and not to treat of it; and that if you did not acquiesce in this injunction, you should be imprisoned".[36]

Your fourth weblink doesn't say anything about Galileo's dealings with the Church, so let's go to your fifth and last weblink.  

Bellarmine stated his views on the Galileo controversy in an April 12, 1615 letter to Father Foscarini, a highly-respected monk from Naples.  He indicated that Galileo could speak about the Copernican model "hypothetically, and not absolutely."  Bellarmine wrote that "to affirm that the Sun, in its very truth, is at the center of the universe...is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our faith by contradicting the Scriptures."

With "nineteen centuries of organized thought piling up to smother him," Galileo pleaded--in a powerful summary of thoughts on Scriptural interpretation and the evidence concerning the nature of the universe--his case in his Letter to the Grand Duchess.  He asked that his idea not be condemned "without understanding it, without hearing it, without even having seen it."  Galileo's eloquent Letter was forwarded to Rome where, in the words of one historian, "it sank out of sight as softly as a penny in a snowban

So, what exactly is your argument?  You want the Catholic Church to support Galileo's theory that the sun is at the center of the universe?  Do you even believe that the sun is at the center of the entire universe?

You have got to be kidding.  My argument was/is that the RCC was wrong.  Absolutely and completely wrong.  Their position had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact of the solar system not being the same as the universe.  Even your suggestion to that  point is ludicrous. The churches position was, quite simply, that the sun revolved around the earth and they presented the Scriptures they thought supported that view.  They of course were wrong.

Your adamant maintainance of such a RCC-contorted position only illustrates what I consider to be the real fallacy and danger of the RCC.  It is why I and many others like me dismiss so much of what you and the RCC says.  You would make a Nixonian politician blush with your overt misrepresentations.

Galileo was never condemned of heresy. He was only under investigation for being suspected of heresy. Don't be silly. I've used your own source. He was under house arrest because he was under investigation.

It happens even today. If you are under investigation by the authorities they try their best to keep you from fleeing. In our country they just keep you undert strict survelliance.

This is a pointless conversation.

1. This is a matter of science.

2. Galileo was never even condemned as a heretic. And even if he were. It was still a matter of sceince not faith and morals.  

Again, that you would think that the church that Jesus established would have and exercise such authority is downright frightening.  I does show just how blinded you are to the truth of what His church is.

What Galileo did was neither a crime nor a sin.  That those so-called church authorities thought it was explains everything.  What did they think they were investigating?

By the way if I ever thought that the "church" was keeping me or any of my family and friends "under strict survelliance" I would take drastic action.

[LightHammer]

Ok I read all of the weblinks.

Galileo was never even charged with heresy. He was brought under investigation for being a suspect and was never formally charged.

He was placed under house arrest because of that suspicion.

From his own mouth:


I have been judged vehemently suspect of heresy, that is, of having held and believed that the sun in the centre of the universe and immoveable, and that the earth is not at the center of same, and that it does move. Wishing however, to remove from the minds of your Eminences and all faithful Christians this vehement suspicion reasonably conceived against me, I abjure with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, I curse and detest the said errors and heresies, and generally all and every error, heresy, and sect contrary to the Holy Catholic Church. (Quoted in Shea and Artigas 194)


He was never even charged with heresy so your arguments are even more worthless than they were before.

He was never charged with heresy because he recanted, not because he was wrong.  But all of that is almost beside the point.  The fact that the church placed him under house arrest and did so for the rest of his life says about all that needs to be said about how bad the "catholic church" was.  That you would even attempt to defend it is scary.  May the head of that monster never rise again.

No one's defedning it. Simply putting it in context while you and AVZ are seemingly trying to distort it into somehow contradicting the teachings of the Church with regards to the principle of preservation.

You all keep saying that he was condemned as a heretic but was right so the Church was actually wrong on matters of faith and morals.

Well he was never condemned as a heretic and an error of science is not an error of faith and morals so its immaterial either way.

Furthermore with your little "May that head of that monster never rise again" sentiment it seems like you are the one supporting 30 years of war if it meant taking power from those who apparently depise so greatly.

Spare me your psuedo-Apocalyptic references. There was nothing diabolical here. Very simply the Church was at real war because people like you were distorting its beliefs and practices as contradiction. Galileo's work would've been seen as another contradiction and gave power to enemies. This isn't some game Jimmy. This isn't that difficult to process. People were dying. Calvins sacking Lyons. Anglicans slaughtering Catholics in England.

This isn't a joke. This isn't some theory about astronomy. The Church didn't care about scientific accuracy and according to your own source Cardinal Bellarmine was in support of Galileo attempting to prove the theory.

Stop trying to twist history in order to give your position some teeth. Its sad.

[LightHammer]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

It's pretty much in consistent with the RCC account.  Galileo was not tortured at all.  Your weblinks says that Galileo was condemned for heresy because he taught that the sun was at the center of the universe.  Do you believe that the sun is at the center of the universe.  According to your first weblink, this is what it says:

Finally, in April 1633 Galileo was called before the Holy Office. This was tantamount to a charge of heresy, and he was urged to repent (Shea and Artigas, 183f). Specifically, he had been charged with teaching and defending the Copernican doctrine that holds that the Sun is at the center of the universe and that the earth moves. This doctrine had been deemed heretical in 1616, and Copernicus' book had placed on the index of prohibited books, pending correction.

If the Catholic Church supported this, it would hold that we must believe everything that science says including the riduclous and unproven idea that the sun is at the center of the universe.  Now, this is what your second weblink says:

A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence

Now, let's take a look at the third weblink:

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633, "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world", against the 1616 condemnation, since "it was decided at the Holy Congregation [...] on 25 Feb 1616 that [...] the Holy Office would give you an injunction to abandon this doctrine, not to teach it to others, not to defend it, and not to treat of it; and that if you did not acquiesce in this injunction, you should be imprisoned".[36]

Your fourth weblink doesn't say anything about Galileo's dealings with the Church, so let's go to your fifth and last weblink.  

Bellarmine stated his views on the Galileo controversy in an April 12, 1615 letter to Father Foscarini, a highly-respected monk from Naples.  He indicated that Galileo could speak about the Copernican model "hypothetically, and not absolutely."  Bellarmine wrote that "to affirm that the Sun, in its very truth, is at the center of the universe...is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our faith by contradicting the Scriptures."

With "nineteen centuries of organized thought piling up to smother him," Galileo pleaded--in a powerful summary of thoughts on Scriptural interpretation and the evidence concerning the nature of the universe--his case in his Letter to the Grand Duchess.  He asked that his idea not be condemned "without understanding it, without hearing it, without even having seen it."  Galileo's eloquent Letter was forwarded to Rome where, in the words of one historian, "it sank out of sight as softly as a penny in a snowban

So, what exactly is your argument?  You want the Catholic Church to support Galileo's theory that the sun is at the center of the universe?  Do you even believe that the sun is at the center of the entire universe?

You have got to be kidding.  My argument was/is that the RCC was wrong.  Absolutely and completely wrong.  Their position had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact of the solar system not being the same as the universe.  Even your suggestion to that  point is ludicrous. The churches position was, quite simply, that the sun revolved around the earth and they presented the Scriptures they thought supported that view.  They of course were wrong.

Your adamant maintainance of such a RCC-contorted position only illustrates what I consider to be the real fallacy and danger of the RCC.  It is why I and many others like me dismiss so much of what you and the RCC says.  You would make a Nixonian politician blush with your overt misrepresentations.

Galileo was never condemned of heresy. He was only under investigation for being suspected of heresy. Don't be silly. I've used your own source. He was under house arrest because he was under investigation.

It happens even today. If you are under investigation by the authorities they try their best to keep you from fleeing. In our country they just keep you undert strict survelliance.

This is a pointless conversation.

1. This is a matter of science.

2. Galileo was never even condemned as a heretic. And even if he were. It was still a matter of sceince not faith and morals.  

Again, that you would think that the church that Jesus established would have and exercise such authority is downright frightening.  I does show just how blinded you are to the truth of what His church is.

What Galileo did was neither a crime nor a sin.  That those so-called church authorities thought it was explains everything.  What did they think they were investigating?

By the way if I ever thought that the "church" was keeping me or any of my family and friends "under strict survelliance" I would take drastic action.

You thought I meant church authorities? Yea that was kind of funny. No I meant civil authorities.

When someone is suspected of a crime they don't want the person fleeing so they place them under survelliance. Its only common sense.

It was war. Things get frightening. I think you have revealed that you are not blind at all. Only that you really don't care about historic accuracy or taking an honest position. You'll take any situation that seemingly or really makes the Church look bad and exaggerate it out of context to make it look like some great diabolical sin.

Again choose your words more carefully. Galileo was never charged with anything. You ask what they think they were investigating? Are you serious?

Do you even know the basic history of the development of science?

[Jimmy]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

It's pretty much in consistent with the RCC account.  Galileo was not tortured at all.  Your weblinks says that Galileo was condemned for heresy because he taught that the sun was at the center of the universe.  Do you believe that the sun is at the center of the universe.  According to your first weblink, this is what it says:

Finally, in April 1633 Galileo was called before the Holy Office. This was tantamount to a charge of heresy, and he was urged to repent (Shea and Artigas, 183f). Specifically, he had been charged with teaching and defending the Copernican doctrine that holds that the Sun is at the center of the universe and that the earth moves. This doctrine had been deemed heretical in 1616, and Copernicus' book had placed on the index of prohibited books, pending correction.

If the Catholic Church supported this, it would hold that we must believe everything that science says including the riduclous and unproven idea that the sun is at the center of the universe.  Now, this is what your second weblink says:

A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence

Now, let's take a look at the third weblink:

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633, "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world", against the 1616 condemnation, since "it was decided at the Holy Congregation [...] on 25 Feb 1616 that [...] the Holy Office would give you an injunction to abandon this doctrine, not to teach it to others, not to defend it, and not to treat of it; and that if you did not acquiesce in this injunction, you should be imprisoned".[36]

Your fourth weblink doesn't say anything about Galileo's dealings with the Church, so let's go to your fifth and last weblink.  

Bellarmine stated his views on the Galileo controversy in an April 12, 1615 letter to Father Foscarini, a highly-respected monk from Naples.  He indicated that Galileo could speak about the Copernican model "hypothetically, and not absolutely."  Bellarmine wrote that "to affirm that the Sun, in its very truth, is at the center of the universe...is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our faith by contradicting the Scriptures."

With "nineteen centuries of organized thought piling up to smother him," Galileo pleaded--in a powerful summary of thoughts on Scriptural interpretation and the evidence concerning the nature of the universe--his case in his Letter to the Grand Duchess.  He asked that his idea not be condemned "without understanding it, without hearing it, without even having seen it."  Galileo's eloquent Letter was forwarded to Rome where, in the words of one historian, "it sank out of sight as softly as a penny in a snowban

So, what exactly is your argument?  You want the Catholic Church to support Galileo's theory that the sun is at the center of the universe?  Do you even believe that the sun is at the center of the entire universe?

You have got to be kidding.  My argument was/is that the RCC was wrong.  Absolutely and completely wrong.  Their position had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact of the solar system not being the same as the universe.  Even your suggestion to that  point is ludicrous. The churches position was, quite simply, that the sun revolved around the earth and they presented the Scriptures they thought supported that view.  They of course were wrong.

Your adamant maintainance of such a RCC-contorted position only illustrates what I consider to be the real fallacy and danger of the RCC.  It is why I and many others like me dismiss so much of what you and the RCC says.  You would make a Nixonian politician blush with your overt misrepresentations.

Galileo was never condemned of heresy. He was only under investigation for being suspected of heresy. Don't be silly. I've used your own source. He was under house arrest because he was under investigation.

It happens even today. If you are under investigation by the authorities they try their best to keep you from fleeing. In our country they just keep you undert strict survelliance.

This is a pointless conversation.

1. This is a matter of science.

2. Galileo was never even condemned as a heretic. And even if he were. It was still a matter of sceince not faith and morals.  

Again, that you would think that the church that Jesus established would have and exercise such authority is downright frightening.  I does show just how blinded you are to the truth of what His church is.

What Galileo did was neither a crime nor a sin.  That those so-called church authorities thought it was explains everything.  What did they think they were investigating?

By the way if I ever thought that the "church" was keeping me or any of my family and friends "under strict survelliance" I would take drastic action.

You thought I meant church authorities? Yea that was kind of funny. No I meant civil authorities.

When someone is suspected of a crime they don't want the person fleeing so they place them under survelliance. Its only common sense.

It was war. Things get frightening. I think you have revealed that you are not blind at all. Only that you really don't care about historic accuracy or taking an honest position. You'll take any situation that seemingly or really makes the Church look bad and exaggerate it out of context to make it look like some great diabolical sin.

Again choose your words more carefully. Galileo was never charged with anything. You ask what they think they were investigating? Are you serious?

Do you even know the basic history of the development of science?

What was the crime he was suspected of?

And yes I do know the basic history of the development of science.  One thing is quite clear is that science would have progressed much faster had the RCC not reared its ugly head to prevent it.  It was only after the various fields of science managed to escape from under the heavy hand of the church that real progress began to be made. That is obvious to anyone who has even perused the history of science, except perhaps for that history written by RC.

And I do not need to take any situation to make the (RC) church look bad in those times.  It did that masterfully by itself at the direction of the various popes and other leaders.

[LightHammer]

Perhaps you should read some other versions of the story.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

http://galileo.rice.edu/galileo.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html


Read nearly any account of Galileo, other than perhaps an "official" RCC account, and you realize that the RCC was simply wrong.  On just about everything.

It's pretty much in consistent with the RCC account.  Galileo was not tortured at all.  Your weblinks says that Galileo was condemned for heresy because he taught that the sun was at the center of the universe.  Do you believe that the sun is at the center of the universe.  According to your first weblink, this is what it says:

Finally, in April 1633 Galileo was called before the Holy Office. This was tantamount to a charge of heresy, and he was urged to repent (Shea and Artigas, 183f). Specifically, he had been charged with teaching and defending the Copernican doctrine that holds that the Sun is at the center of the universe and that the earth moves. This doctrine had been deemed heretical in 1616, and Copernicus' book had placed on the index of prohibited books, pending correction.

If the Catholic Church supported this, it would hold that we must believe everything that science says including the riduclous and unproven idea that the sun is at the center of the universe.  Now, this is what your second weblink says:

A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence

Now, let's take a look at the third weblink:

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633, "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world", against the 1616 condemnation, since "it was decided at the Holy Congregation [...] on 25 Feb 1616 that [...] the Holy Office would give you an injunction to abandon this doctrine, not to teach it to others, not to defend it, and not to treat of it; and that if you did not acquiesce in this injunction, you should be imprisoned".[36]

Your fourth weblink doesn't say anything about Galileo's dealings with the Church, so let's go to your fifth and last weblink.  

Bellarmine stated his views on the Galileo controversy in an April 12, 1615 letter to Father Foscarini, a highly-respected monk from Naples.  He indicated that Galileo could speak about the Copernican model "hypothetically, and not absolutely."  Bellarmine wrote that "to affirm that the Sun, in its very truth, is at the center of the universe...is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our faith by contradicting the Scriptures."

With "nineteen centuries of organized thought piling up to smother him," Galileo pleaded--in a powerful summary of thoughts on Scriptural interpretation and the evidence concerning the nature of the universe--his case in his Letter to the Grand Duchess.  He asked that his idea not be condemned "without understanding it, without hearing it, without even having seen it."  Galileo's eloquent Letter was forwarded to Rome where, in the words of one historian, "it sank out of sight as softly as a penny in a snowban

So, what exactly is your argument?  You want the Catholic Church to support Galileo's theory that the sun is at the center of the universe?  Do you even believe that the sun is at the center of the entire universe?

You have got to be kidding.  My argument was/is that the RCC was wrong.  Absolutely and completely wrong.  Their position had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact of the solar system not being the same as the universe.  Even your suggestion to that  point is ludicrous. The churches position was, quite simply, that the sun revolved around the earth and they presented the Scriptures they thought supported that view.  They of course were wrong.

Your adamant maintainance of such a RCC-contorted position only illustrates what I consider to be the real fallacy and danger of the RCC.  It is why I and many others like me dismiss so much of what you and the RCC says.  You would make a Nixonian politician blush with your overt misrepresentations.

Galileo was never condemned of heresy. He was only under investigation for being suspected of heresy. Don't be silly. I've used your own source. He was under house arrest because he was under investigation.

It happens even today. If you are under investigation by the authorities they try their best to keep you from fleeing. In our country they just keep you undert strict survelliance.

This is a pointless conversation.

1. This is a matter of science.

2. Galileo was never even condemned as a heretic. And even if he were. It was still a matter of sceince not faith and morals.  

Again, that you would think that the church that Jesus established would have and exercise such authority is downright frightening.  I does show just how blinded you are to the truth of what His church is.

What Galileo did was neither a crime nor a sin.  That those so-called church authorities thought it was explains everything.  What did they think they were investigating?

By the way if I ever thought that the "church" was keeping me or any of my family and friends "under strict survelliance" I would take drastic action.

You thought I meant church authorities? Yea that was kind of funny. No I meant civil authorities.

When someone is suspected of a crime they don't want the person fleeing so they place them under survelliance. Its only common sense.

It was war. Things get frightening. I think you have revealed that you are not blind at all. Only that you really don't care about historic accuracy or taking an honest position. You'll take any situation that seemingly or really makes the Church look bad and exaggerate it out of context to make it look like some great diabolical sin.

Again choose your words more carefully. Galileo was never charged with anything. You ask what they think they were investigating? Are you serious?

Do you even know the basic history of the development of science?

What was the crime he was suspected of?

And yes I do know the basic history of the development of science.  One thing is quite clear is that science would have progressed much faster had the RCC not reared its ugly head to prevent it.  It was only after the various fields of science managed to escape from under the heavy hand of the church that real progress began to be made. That is obvious to anyone who has even perused the history of science, except perhaps for that history written by RC.

And I do not need to take any situation to make the (RC) church look bad in those times.  It did that masterfully by itself at the direction of the various popes and other leaders.

If you know the history of science then you know why the leading religious power of the land had monopoly on it. In lamens terms it was because (like mathematics to engineering) science as been a subordinate appendage of religion that emerged from religious philosophy.

If you know the classics of your own civilization then you know that every single advancement in science has been religiously oriented.

Actually I think science would have progressed if it would have separated itself from religion period but that's another topic altogether.

In any event this conversation and topic seems to have run it's course.

[Jimmy]

What was the crime he was suspected of?

And yes I do know the basic history of the development of science.  One thing is quite clear is that science would have progressed much faster had the RCC not reared its ugly head to prevent it.  It was only after the various fields of science managed to escape from under the heavy hand of the church that real progress began to be made. That is obvious to anyone who has even perused the history of science, except perhaps for that history written by RC.

And I do not need to take any situation to make the (RC) church look bad in those times.  It did that masterfully by itself at the direction of the various popes and other leaders.

If you know the history of science then you know why the leading religious power of the land had monopoly on it. In lamens terms it was because (like mathematics to engineering) science as been a subordinate appendage of religion that emerged from religious philosophy.

If you know the classics of your own civilization then you know that every single advancement in science has been religiously oriented.

Actually I think science would have progressed if it would have separated itself from religion period but that's another topic altogether.

In any event this conversation and topic seems to have run it's course.

Still no answer to the question concerning the crime of which Galileo was suspected.  It was heresy.  A charge brought by the church.  If you know the history of science then you know that it was Galileo who is often considered the father of modern science, in the western world at least.  In some other parts of the world, not under the stifling thumb of the RCC, it was not doing so badly.

Every single advancement in science has been religiously oriented?  Are you serious?  It is true that in the western world most of the early leaders in science, such as Newton, were sincere Christians and they were not shy in crediting God with their success.  But all of their efforts were hardly religiously oriented.

And yes this conversation and topic seems to have run it's course if only because of an RCC tendency to distort the truth if it might tend to shed a bad light on it.

[Selene]

Still no answer to the question concerning the crime of which Galileo was suspected.  It was heresy.  A charge brought by the church.  If you know the history of science then you know that it was Galileo who is often considered the father of modern science, in the western world at least.  In some other parts of the world, not under the stifling thumb of the RCC, it was not doing so badly.

Every single advancement in science has been religiously oriented?  Are you serious?  It is true that in the western world most of the early leaders in science, such as Newton, were sincere Christians and they were not shy in crediting God with their success.  But all of their efforts were hardly religiously oriented.

And yes this conversation and topic seems to have run it's course if only because of an RCC tendency to distort the truth if it might tend to shed a bad light on it.

Yes, the advancement in science has been religiously oriented because the RCC and individual Church official funded their research.  Originally most research took place in Roman Catholic universities that were staffed by members of religious orders who had the education and means to conduct scientific investigation. Catholic universities, scholars and many priests including Nicolaus Copernicus, Roger Bacon, Albertus Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Nicholas Steno, Francesco Grimaldi, Giambattista Riccioli, Roger Boscovich, Athanasius Kircher, Gregor Mendel, Georges Lemaître and many others, were responsible for many important scientific discoveries. Since the late 16th century the Jesuits have produced the large majority of priest-scientists, who contributed to worldwide cultural exchange by spreading their developments in knowledge to Asia, Africa, and the Americas.

[LightHammer]

Actually I said every advancement in science has been eligiously oriented because it has. Contrary to what he said Jimmy doesn't seem to be familiar with the history of science at all.

I'm talk about the ancient history of it. How things like geometry and philosophy and mathematics ad astronomy began and developed. His fixation on the Middle Ages and his lack on the history of science makes truly incapable of even having this discussion.

[Jimmy]

It would appear that LH is such a lightweight in science that he really doesn't know what he is talking about even when it comes to the history of science.

[LightHammer]

"Lightweight" 

Good one.

[Jimmy]

I thought so.   

[LightHammer]

I thought so.   

I've seen some pretty funny renditions of my username but that one takes the cake. The context and delivery were perfect.

Doesn't change the fact that you have a narrow understanding of science's origins and history but at least we both got some giggles out of the deal.