Justification - Sifting Through the Catholic and Protestant Divide

[Jimmy]

While you are at it, you can also explain why reformed theology differs with your own understanding.

Why it differs?  Because the reformed theology of salvation is wrong.

Since it appears that the direction this is taking is the distinction between RCC and Reformed theologies I will just bow out now.

[Teresa]

While you are at it, you can also explain why reformed theology differs with your own understanding.

Why it differs?  Because the reformed theology of salvation is wrong.

You haven't answered my question still.

You said that it the citations is false. Which part and why?

Why is reformed theology wrong and how does it differ from your theology?

If you don't really have an answer and don't really know why just say so.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[Dave...]

Hi Dave,

I have highlighted this particular text because the extract from Beckwith's book that I cited in my response to Jimmy addresses this very issue.

It is because Luther adhered to a Nominalist philosphy that he could not conceive that grace has real ontological effects in the soul.

I recommend reading my response to Jimmy as that goes to the heart of the matter.

Hi Teresa.

I did read the responce that you gave to Jimmy, just to be thourough. I was hoping that you noticed that I was making my case from scripture, and not from Luther or Calvin...though most of the time I was not referencing the actual passage by book, chapter and number. So, with all due respect to Beckwith, this doctrine comes straight from the word of God, and his argument is a straw man argument.

Also, as a side note, without faith it is impossible to please God.

This is scripture. Hebrews 11:6

Teresa, do you hold the Bible as absolute truth?

My answer to that is yes and I can answer that with a yes because I also hold as true the infallibility of the one who canonized the Bible - the Catholic Church.

As long as we can both source the Bible and hold it as absolute truth.

No. Much more than once!  I am a sinner.  But I also have hope in Christ.

Good...well, not good, but good that we have an understanding lol. Anyways, since you are willing to admit that you're a sinner (me too), will you also admit that you (your efforts) have fallen short of the glory of God?

Also, do you acknowledge the point that James made, that if we 'transgressed the Law at one point (which is what sin is), then we transgressed the Law at every point'? Do you see the implications of that?

Some scripture to consider
http://www.bible-topics.com/Justification-before-God.html

Dave

[Michael2012]

I do get what you are trying to say with regards Abraham and with regards people of faith in general. But it really does not work.

God can only see "actualized good work" whether it be now or 100 years from now.
If say Abraham had faith and he followed through with the sacrifice say the following morning or a week later or a month later then God knows that actualization. So God can credit Abraham right there and then, the righteousness that his future act merits.

However, if Abraham did not follow through at all (never) - then there is nothing for God to see(neither then or in the future) because there is no (and there will never be)  actualization. There is no good act - even in the remotests future - to credit him with.  God's omniscience sees reality.  A faith that is not actualized, that is not brought to a realization is just not there for God to see.

Yes nothing is hidden from Him but even God will not see an act that is never realized.  If I professed faith and told God I will obey Him and I obeyed Him 3 years later, there is something for His omniscience to see ( delayed but it is there).

But if someone never ever does what one promised to do, then there nothing there for God to see in the future or otherweise.

You did get what I'm trying to say, though not fully.  You understand my point in the sense that God sees ahead of time. That's right.

You say that, although God in His Omniscience sees ahead, the act must however be done, later in time, so that righteousness could have been credited. Could it be said then that righteousness is credited because of obedience or work? But this will contradict what the Bible says. The Bible says that righteousness was credited to  Abraham because of his faith.  It is Faith not Works or Obedience.

The omniscience of God does that only see the future, but sees and knows the heart of Abraham, so that He can judge his faith.  Meaning, no proof, such as actual and visible act, is necessary. God don't need anything to prove that His judgment is right. The point being is that, with or without the deed being actually realized or even never been realized, God would still know if Abraham's faith is true or not or what faith he have. Note that though Abraham went ahead to sacrifice Isaac, the sacrifice did not actually happened or realized. Why? Because it was really not necessary for God to see in order  for God to know Abraham's faith. God knows that Abraham would really do it. If you say that God would know only when the act was actually realized, then God should have waited until Abraham actually killed Isaac as a sacrifice. Yes Abraham was about to kill Isaac, but still, the deed was not realized. Would Abraham had killed Isaac if God did not stopped him? God knows, but we don't. We need proof, but God doesn't. We, on the other hand, could only say that Abraham sacrificed Isaac if he actually killed Isaac.     

But apart from the possibility of leading others to Christ - what profit is there in it if what is required is our salvation.
If we are already saved once we have faith, then what is there a need for good works.  Just to testify to our faith?  But if it is not necessary because we are already saved then why do it at all?

A good question. Why do good works at all if we are already saved?

There are a great lot of reasons why we should do good works. Among others, we do good works:

1. To be a good testimony of our Faith in Jesus Christ to the Glory of God.
2. To show our love to the Lord.
3. In obedience to his will.
4. As an offering of thanksgiving to God.
5. To be blessed by God.
6. To store up treasures in heaven.
7. For righteousness.
8. As an offering of worship to God.
9. To avoid  sin.
10. To affirm & prove to ourselves and others that our faith in Jesus Christ is genuine.

[Michael2012]

Hi Teresa,

I have given an extract above from the Francis Beckwith's Return to Rome, in response to Jimmy.

I think that will explain why Protestants have a forensic idea of justification.

Yes, it is explaining a lot about why Protestant have a forensic idea of justification.

Maybe it is my turn to ask.

As a Catholic, how do you understand Justification and Sanctification?

Thanks.

[Teresa]

Hi Teresa,

I have given an extract above from the Francis Beckwith's Return to Rome, in response to Jimmy.

I think that will explain why Protestants have a forensic idea of justification.

Yes, it is explaining a lot about why Protestant have a forensic idea of justification.

Maybe it is my turn to ask.

As a Catholic, how do you understand Justification and Sanctification?

Thanks.

I have very little time today to reply so I will just do a quick one to this and address your other post later.

In my reply to Jimmy there is also a reference as to how we understand justification.

But for Catholics the gift of grace is more than a legal declaration.  "It' in the words of the Catechism, "conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.

[Michael2012]

In my reply to Jimmy there is also a reference as to how we understand justification.

But for Catholics the gift of grace is more than a legal declaration.  "It' in the words of the Catechism, "conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.

[Teresa]

In my reply to Jimmy there is also a reference as to how we understand justification.

But for Catholics the gift of grace is more than a legal declaration.  "It' in the words of the Catechism, "conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.

[Teresa]

Hi Teresa.

I did read the responce that you gave to Jimmy, just to be thourough. I was hoping that you noticed that I was making my case from scripture, and not from Luther or Calvin...though most of the time I was not referencing the actual passage by book, chapter and number. So, with all due respect to Beckwith, this doctrine comes straight from the word of God, and his argument is a straw man argument.  

I don't think it is is so much the question of the Bible but how we interpret it.

Beckwith is trying to explain why Luther interprets the Bible that way and it is because of his philosophy.

Also, as a side note, without faith it is impossible to please God. This is scripture. Hebrews 11:6

If you extend that to the whole verse, it goes: But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."  But this verse does not speak specifically about faith in Christ but faith in God.  So basically this encompasses all who believe in God.

Also, do you acknowledge the point that James made, that if we 'transgressed the Law at one point (which is what sin is), then we transgressed the Law at every point'? Do you see the implications of that?  

I am not quite sure that that is what James meant and he gives an example in the verse following: For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,

[Teresa]

You did get what I'm trying to say, though not fully.  You understand my point in the sense that God sees ahead of time. That's right.

You say that, although God in His Omniscience sees ahead, the act must however be done, later in time, so that righteousness could have been credited. Could it be said then that righteousness is credited because of obedience or work? But this will contradict what the Bible says. The Bible says that righteousness was credited to  Abraham because of his faith.  It is Faith not Works or Obedience.

The omniscience of God does that only see the future, but sees and knows the heart of Abraham, so that He can judge his faith.  Meaning, no proof, such as actual and visible act, is necessary.

But if faith is not actualized, then there is no faith. 

Suppose God said to you, Michael I want you to up and go and live among the barbarous tribes and preach my Word to them.

Now you may say that you have faith in God. Which is fair enough. But if you do not up and go (now, or a month later or  20 years later), which means that you did not follow God's command (which could be because you are scared of these people's barbarity) then can God see faith there?  Can God search your heart and find faith there?  Is there faith that will justify you or is there just cowardice and disobedience,

Faith is not a feeling, or an intellectual assent.  True faith is lived faith.  If you do not go and preach to the barbarous tribes, your claim that you have faith is false precisely because it is not lived. If you truly have faith, then you will have lived among these barbarous tribes.

God sees are heart but if faith is in our heart then it will be manifested in our works.

Peace and All Good

Teresa

[Michael2012]

In a nutshell, Justification is the process by which we are made right with God and this includes sanctificaton.

At Baptism we are both justified and sanctified.  If we die after being baptised we go straight to heaven.  However, since we never remain sinless, then this process continue while we are alive.

For a more detailed answer I give the link below.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM

Peace and All Good

Teresa

So you are saying that you believe that:

1. Justification continues after your baptism while alive because you still commit sin and never remain sinless.
2. That justification is a process, which includes sanctification, by which you are made right with God.

You believe that when you die right after baptism, you will go to heaven, since you are justified and sanctified, meaning to say you are righteous at that instant and holy as well. However, if you live on after baptism you must maintain your baptismal state in order to go to heaven. That you must not sin and do good works to maintain it. This would imply that, when and every time you sin, which we all still do, your baptismal justification and sanctification diminishes, if not lost at all, such that you must ask God to cleanse you once again and restore you to your baptismal state, else, if it happens that you die without having been cleansed, you will not go heaven, or that maybe your salvation is in danger of not happening without you being purified after you die. I could understand now why RC prays for the dead souls for purification. And I understand now that every time one sins, they need to have the sacrament of confession, less they would be caught with sin when suddenly death overcomes them and not having been purified. I understand also that RC have a sacrament given to a dying person to this effect.

I've started reading the the link you've posted, though I'm not finished yet. I will try to finish reading it and give you my thoughts about it. Thanks.

Justification and sanctification happens when I accept and put my faith in Jesus Christ. Though, while I am still a sinner, I am declared to be righteous and holy, by His Grace, through Faith in Him. He paid for my sins that I now stand righteous in front of God. The Spirit of Christ made his dwelling in me, that I now stand holy in His sight. And while there is still time to live here on earth, while awaiting to be with Him in Heaven, God's plan and will for us to that we be conformed to his image and be like Him in all respect to his person such as being holy, righteous, compassionate, loving, merciful, meek, humble, faithful, and so on. This is why He wants me to obey His commands, for His commands are good, and righteous, and will surely be for my good, in this life and the next. For there is a reward waiting for me not only blessings here on earth, but in heaven as well. Along the way, I still do fall into sin and ask Him to forgive me for it. And I know that He is faithful and just to forgive me. And I know that He will discipline and chastise me whenever I do sin, for my own good, that I might not sin no more. I always thank Him because , having justified and sanctified me, by His blood, I know that He will never leave me and He will forever be there to help me be like Him.
 


   

[Michael2012]

But if faith is not actualized, then there is no faith. 

Hi Teresa,

This is expected since this is a hypothetical question which fetch various possible answers or point of views. Let me see. But  before I get to another different angle on what you are trying to say let me just post again, my several points of view regarding Abraham's faith with regards his sacrifice of Isaac. I'll just pick some quotes on what I already pointed out on my posts:
1.

The Bible says that righteousness was credited to  Abraham because of his faith.  It is Faith not Works or Obedience.

2.

The omniscience of God does that only see the future, but sees and knows the heart of Abraham, so that He can judge his faith.  Meaning, no proof, such as actual and visible act, is necessary. God don't need anything to prove that His judgment is right. The point being is that, with or without the deed being actually realized or even never been realized, God would still know if Abraham's faith is true or not or what faith he have. Note that though Abraham went ahead to sacrifice Isaac, the sacrifice did not actually happened or realized. Why? Because it was really not necessary for God to see in order  for God to know Abraham's faith. God knows that Abraham would really do it. If you say that God would know only when the act was actually realized, then God should have waited until Abraham actually killed Isaac as a sacrifice. Yes Abraham was about to kill Isaac, but still, the deed was not realized. Would Abraham had killed Isaac if God did not stopped him? God knows, but we don't. We need proof, but God doesn't. We, on the other hand, could only say that Abraham sacrificed Isaac if he actually killed Isaac.

Teresa, can you say that Abraham, in fact or actually sacrificed Isaac? 

3.

He had faith that's why He obeyed. And that is what really what happened as the scripture says. It could not be said the other way. Faith in Jesus Christ is the key, not obedience.

-----------------

I'm sorry if I didn't get your point all along. I'll try and hope I get what you are trying to say this time.

Faith seems to be very hard to deal with, isn't it? Maybe because it is a matter of the innermost unseen part of every man.

But if faith is not actualized, then there is no faith.

Your statement confuses me. What you say "But if faith is not actualized" implies that there is faith to actualize in the first place. And so the rest that follows, that is, "then there is no faith" would be contrary to what is implied on first part. Maybe this is what you mean: Faith without works is no faith at all. Or maybe, faith, without works means it simply does not exist. Or maybe, works is necessary for faith to exist.

All seems to have a common point, that is, No work, No faith. But then again it could also be, No faith, No work.

But since the point of your question has emphasis on the work of Abraham, I guess it's the No work, No faith that is  more likely your point.

If Abraham had not done what the Bible said He did, it is to say that he disobeyed God. Right? And having disobeyed God, there was no work done. And maybe this is why you said "

So there was no faith that could have been declared as his righteousness if he had not sacrficied Isaac.

Thus, No work, No faith. And as such, No righteousness. Is this your point? And in relation to Justification, thus, No work, No faith, No righteousness, No justification?

I'll follow through on my next post regarding this, and perhaps you could somehow affirm my discussion above or even better if you could tell me directly what's your point in asking this hypothetical question concerning Abraham.

Suppose God said to you, Michael I want you to up and go and live among the barbarous tribes and preach my Word to them.

Now you may say that you have faith in God. Which is fair enough. But if you do not up and go (now, or a month later or  20 years later), which means that you did not follow God's command (which could be because you are scared of these people's barbarity) then can God see faith there?  Can God search your heart and find faith there?  Is there faith that will justify you or is there just cowardice and disobedience

Would you go Teresa? And I believe you will say "yes", which is fairly expected of anybody who say they have genuine faith in God. Again, this is hypothetical which could only lead to another hypothetical situation, and on and on it will go. It's not really something we would pray about that we should be put to the test. And besides, everyone of us has a different experience with God in our past, just as Abraham. You see, I took your question regarding Abraham considering his story with God, in like manner as in understanding Bible passages. We know that Abraham has faith in God and was proven even before he was told by God to sacrifice Isaac. This is the context of my answers. Now, you and I have our own context and surely will have a bearing on our views. And just to mention a point on this, it is not as if you or I who says we have faith in God, if we don't live up to the test, doesn't mean at all that we don't have faith or our faith is not genuine. But one thing sure, we have little faith or that our faith is not as strong as we think it is, that we need to ask God to strengthen our faith as we walk with him. And another thing is sure, that we have disobeyed Him and sinned that we need to ask for forgiveness. But I would not say, I nor you have no faith.   

Faith is not a feeling, or an intellectual assent.  True faith is lived faith.  If you do not go and preach to the barbarous tribes, your claim that you have faith is false precisely because it is not lived. If you truly have faith, then you will have lived among these barbarous tribes

You are right in saying that Faith is not a feeling, or all just in the mind. For Faith has nothing to do with the human senses. It is spiritual and of the very heart of man. 


 

[Teresa]

So you are saying that you believe that:

1. Justification continues after your baptism while alive because you still commit sin and never remain sinless.
2. That justification is a process, which includes sanctification, by which you are made right with God.

You believe that when you die right after baptism, you will go to heaven, since you are justified and sanctified, meaning to say you are righteous at that instant and holy as well. However, if you live on after baptism you must maintain your baptismal state in order to go to heaven.  That you must not sin and do good works to maintain it.

I would like interject here that this is all done by God's grace.

We believe that at each moment in our life, God gives us the grace necessary to be conformed to the image of Christ.  When we cooperate (say yes to this grace) we help in this transformation.

The process is not just a matter of being cleansed (remaining sinless so that we can get to heaven) but rather a matter of being deified or theosis as the Easter Orthodox call it.

This would imply that, when and every time you sin, which we all still do, your baptismal justification and sanctification diminishes, if not lost at all, such that you must ask God to cleanse you once again and restore you to your baptismal state,  

As I have explained above it is not just a case of us getting dirty.  Sin has real ontological effect in our soul. When we sin, our souls get conformed to evil -to a No to God.  Salvation is the process of conforming us back to Christ.

else, if it happens that you die without having been cleansed, you will not go heaven, or that maybe your salvation is in danger of not happening without you being purified after you die.

If you die and this transformation is not complete, then you will undergo further transformation or purgation.

I think what will help clarify my position is if we get a better understanding of sin.

Sin is a refusal to let God be God. It is a disobedience that is brought about by pride. At the heart of every sin you will find pride and disobedience -which basically amounts to I/Me/Myself am God.  This is the sin of Adam and Eve - the grasping at self-deification.

The path to salvation is therefore its reversal – humility and obedience.  And we see this in Christ.  He did not cling to his equality with God (humility) and He obeyed even unto death.

The grace that comes from Christ's life, death and resurrection is what will enable us to grow in humility and obedience to the Father - in short being transformed into "other Christs".

This self-love, this self-deification is what needs to be removed from us so that a spirit of humility and obedience will take its place.
If we are not sufficiently cleansed of this inordinate self-love, this self-defication, then that will continue even after death in purgatory. This -  in essence - is what gets purged out of us.

If our transformation on this earth is not complete (and we are not so totally evil that we deserve hell) then we need to undergo purgation (hence the word purgatory) to complete this transformation.  The Bible says that nothing unclean will enter heaven.  Since many people die not being totally evil but not quite completely transformed saints either, then it stands to reason that God will complete our transformation after our death so that we can enter heaven.

In short, we are declared just because we have in fact been made just i.e. conformed to the image of Christ.

In my response earlier, I said that we believe that grace has real ontological effects in the soul, meaning that it has the power to slowly change our souls over time and conform it to Christ.

This is why we affirm that we are justified by grace, i.e.  grace justifies us by making us just.

This Grace that conforms us to the image of Christ is given to us everyday, and everyday with cooperate with this grace through  "good works

[Michael2012]

I think what you have described here conforms to the understanding of justification as forensic – i.e. only  a changed legal standing in front of God but that God then proceeds to conform us to his will after we have been justified. Essentially, in your view it is a two staged  process: We get justified, then sanctified.

I asked a Lutheran once : is justification enough to get you to heaven.  

Suppose that you accepted Christ and you died.  I would assume that based on what you have explained above that at this stage, all that has happened is your justification, you have not yet been sanctified or regenerated or conformed to the image of Christ.  Would you get to heaven in that instant?  If so, that means justification is enough for you to be saved. Once you are justified, then you are saved.

But if you are not completely conformed to Christ's image, then where does that put you.

My main question here is : If one can get to heaven by justification alone, why is sanctification necessary? Or is it possible to get to heaven without being sanctified?

As I've said, justification and sanctification happens when I accept and put my faith in Jesus Christ.

Suppose that I accepted Christ and I died. Having been justified and sanctified by Christ, I will be with Jesus in paradise.

And if I go on to live after accepting Him, what happens?  

The Spirit of Christ works in me to be conformed to Christ's image. By surrendering our will to the will of the Spirit that dwells in us day by day, will instill in us  the character of Jesus, that is, obedient, faithful, loving, merciful, kind, humble, etc.. And part of this is doing good works which God has prepared in advance for us to do. Does this add some sort of merit or have anything to do with my justification and sanctification when I first accepted the Lord? None. However, it have many things to do with our relationship with God. The more we are conformed to His image, the closer our relationship becomes with God. Besides being closer to Him, there are lot of reasons and things that happens why and when we do good works, as I have enumerated some in one of my earlier post.

Of course, in time, as we walk and grow in the ways and character of the Lord Jesus, we sin a lot lesser than we normally do. Though, a lot better than we were before, we still fall into sin and become sinners. How does that affect my justification and sanctification standing with God?  Same as in the case above, the answer is None, but it surely will affect our relationship with God. When we sin, one of the things that result is a lost of fellowship with God, as was in the case of Adam and Eve, but does not change our relationship with Him as children. This lost of fellowship is in no way like that of unbelievers, or not like before we were reconciled with God. Our fellowship is restored when we ask forgiveness of our sins. Now besides fellowship, there are other consequences when we sin. And all this, we will give account for in this life.

Putting our faith in Christ Jesus resulted to our justification and sanctification. But this does not mean that our sinful nature is totally eradicated, as we are still in the flesh. Though our soul is already purified, our body/flesh are yet to be saved from the sinful nature. And so while we wait for the great day, when even our bodies will be saved, we are being cleansed and being rid of the sinful desires of our flesh while living, for when we die, we are set free from sin and there is nothing to get rid of, for the sinful desires of the flesh is no more. Not that we are not yet saved to be with God in Heaven, but that we will be found worthy of Him who saved us, even in the flesh.

And that is salvation for me.

If our transformation on this earth is not complete (and we are not so totally evil that we deserve hell) then we need to undergo purgation (hence the word purgatory) to complete this transformation.  The Bible says that nothing unclean will enter heaven.  Since many people die not being totally evil but not quite completely transformed saints either, then it stands to reason that God will complete our transformation after our death so that we can enter heaven.

You said "...( and we are not so totally evil that we deserve hell)..." . I beg to disagree with this statement. I believe that sin, whether, how small we think it is, is still sin. And the penalty of sin is death and suffering in hell. This teaching would imply that catholics have a set standard scale on the weight of sin, how small or how big each are. As such, there would also be a corresponding penalty for each. Such that, if one does commit a sin, and ask for forgiveness, an act of 'penance' is required, the extent of which is corresponding to the weight or gravity of the sin.

Do catholics have such a scale of equivalence of good works corresponding to that of sin? Of 'acts of penance' corresponding to that of sin?      

You said "...then we need to undergo purgation (hence the word purgatory) to complete this transformation." If there is purgatory, where the souls of dead catholics undergo purgation to complete transformation, and therefore purified, how is this achieved? How is purgation/purification done? Again I would assume that there is a scale of equivalence to this effect to exact penalty or payment for the sins that need to be purged.

This is all for now.


   

[Catalyst]

Justification is the first step to sanctification.  They are not the same thing.

Rom 6:22 for an easy example.  justification is atonement found in...."now that you have been freed from sin"..... part.
After that you become a slave to God, which means obedient.   To be obedient you go through trials and tribulations to get there, through which God changes you. A Real change of mind and heart, not some empty title claim.
During the battle for changing your slaveship/slavehood from Sinful nature to Serving others/Agapao, you receive a benefit.  John called it His seed, and Paul refers to it as His Spirit.  And that leads you to Sanctification.

The word sanctification means set apart.  You have inanimate objects that are sanctified, but they aren't spiritually mature.

Paul uses the word PERFECT often, to describe the mature believers.  He discusses different things to them than the less mature, you can find milk vs meat as well for a reference.  Those Perfect ones are the matured ones.  And you are going to freak out over the use of the word Perfect, but you can go to www.blueletterbible.com  search the word Perfect, click a new testament usage by Paul.  Go to the verse, to the left are six boxes, click the C it will give you an interlinear bible, Greek on one side, English on the other, and a number to strongs concordance in the middle.  Click the number.  It will show you every usage of that word.  And it will provide you definitions of that word in Greek.  Not define the English word for it. 

Sanctification contains a step in Justification, but Justification can't contain finished Sanctification, albeit in a sense once you are atoned for, you ARE sanctified in terms of Grace, but not maturity.  You have been given Grace so you may then progress to maturity. 

I hope that helps some.

Oh, and while you are not required to be sinless to be atoned for, there is NOTHING anywhere in the Bible that says you are going to sin forever.  Don't sell God short on what He says He can do in you.

Also be wary of anyone who brags they are sinless. :)