The Trinity, Fact or Fiction?

[howard]

Hi GC

I've been gone for a minute doing battle against some Unitarians on another site. Anyway I have a lesson here that I want you all to weigh in on.

I know what the statement of faith is this is why I put it here. I would like it in the theology section but here has to suffice.

If the Moderators can please put it there.

Please weigh in on this and please be polite and christian like.

peace in Jesus

   

[howard]

Are their actually three members of the Godhead?

Or,

is their only one God with three personalities?

How many are there, one, two, or three?

Where should we search this out?

Should we ask our pastors and rely on what he says?

If he is a type of pastor that says, "There are this many or that many," without showing you in the Old and the New Testaments find some one else and ask them the question.

This is a description of a preacher, take good heed to a brother like this.

And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. (Ecclesiastes 12:9-10)


If you have an instructor like that you are truly blessed.

Let's jump right into the lesson and find out what the Word of God has to say about this.

We will also take a look at some history and find out where this trinity doctrine came from.

Let's start this lesson in the beginning.

We will go to Genesis chapter one and begin to use some simple arithmetic.

[howard]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)


Note what God says,

[howard]

Take a look at this verse in Genesis chapter one.

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:25)

In the 26th verse God said that man would be after His likeness not after His kind.


Meaning man would look like Him but, will not be made of the same substance, God is a spirit, man is a soul meaning flesh and blood.

But, people continue to say, "It's only one God, and He was talking to the angels. Well, let's see what an angel looks like, and then decide if man looks like the angels.

[howard]

Ezekiel chapter one.

And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. (Ezekiel 1:4-7)


What are these four living creatures called? Let's go to Ezekiel chapter 10 and find out.


This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings. (Ezekiel 10:20-21)

[howard]

These creatures are cherub angels. Let's reason together sisters and brothers, in Genesis chapter one verse 26, the Lord said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

When was the last time we've seen a man with four faces four wings and calves feet?

We have never seen a man that looks like that.

So, those people that think the Lord was talking to an angel have just been proven wrong by the word of God.

For the simple fact that we cannot find any man upon this earth or anywhere else in the creation that looks like an angel.

This lets us know that God has hands, feet, nose, mouth, eyes etc.

The verse does say He created us in His image correct? So, whom was the Lord talking to if it wasn't the angels?

Was He talking to Himself? Of course not, we will find out who was doing the talking and who was being spoken to.

We will point this out later. Let's return to Genesis.

We will go to Genesis chapter 3 verse 22 and watch how it starts out singular and then plural.

[howard]

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Genesis 3:22)


Notice the scripture says, "The LORD God said," (singular)

Now note the switch to plural, "the man is become as one of us." "Us" implies more than one.

As we go further in this study we will see exactly how many members make up the Godhead.

Notice the next verse how it switches back to the singular form.

[ChristNU]

FACT.

[MeMyself]

FACT.

[howard]

FACT.

is it 3?

[howard]

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from
whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:23)

We can't stop here, let's go to Genesis chapter 11, and see the same occurrence. We are not going to concern ourselves with the story line; we are only locating how many members make up the Godhead


And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. (Genesis 11:5-6)

Notice it says the Lord came down to see the city. Now watch the change in the next verse from singular to plural

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (Genesis 11:7)

[howard]

See the change; "Let us go down." Once again the word "us" implies more than one. Now that we see there's more than one member of the Godhead, let's find out how many are actually in the God family.

We can not use only one verse and say, "see, I told you it was this or that."

We must rightly divide the Word, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.

[howard]

Now, lets take a look at the second Psalm.

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, (Psalms 2:2)

This is a future event.
Who is the Lord's Anointed?
Is it King David? No.

Let's read a little further in this chapter and see who the Lord's Anointed is.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. (Psalms 2:4-6)

I could tell you who this is but we must allow the Bible to speak for itself. Let's read the next verse.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psalms 2:7)

[howard]

Who is the only begotten son?

Jesus.

He became the Son of God at His resurrection;

He was the first born from the dead.

How many do you see?

The LORD, that's one.

Thou art my Son, that's two.

Back up to verse 2 and how many do you see?

The Lord meaning the Father, that's one.

His Anointed meaning the Son Jesus, that's two

[howard]

We know of 4 name used in the bible

Jehovah
Jah
Melchizedek
Jesus

Who is who?

[howard]

The bible speaks of a Godhead

Acts 17:29 (KJV)
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 (KJV)
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Is the Godhead 3!

Is it one?

[howard]

Why the ephasis on a word like trinitarians  or Unitarian?

The Lord has his word that he want used it is called The GodHead

As I read the bible I always come across two

God the Father
God the Son

Another thing that amazes me is the fact the churches have made
The trinity the backbone of thier belief, not Jesus, not the Father.
The trinity.

[howard]

My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. (Psalms 45:1-3)

Who is the mightiest?

Can a man carry the title most mighty?

Let's continue.

And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee. Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Psalms 45:4-7)


How many do you see?

Note the 7th verse, "therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

We have two again, (God, thy God.) Whose throne will be established forever?

Let's go to Hebrews chapter one and see how Paul quoted this scripture and also whose throne will be established forever.

[ScottyB]

The Godhead is the image of the "Us" (Elohim; is distinctly plural, and definitely TWO; no more no less)

And the Godhead is the Doctrine of the Father and the Son.

That's why churchianity (modern Babylon; the mother of all harlots) has lifted up the idol of the Trinity, to hide the face of the Godhead and instead establish their own authority.

Here is the image of God that God created man(kind) in:

Just as Christ came forth from God
Eve came forth from Adam.

That is WHY God is the HEAD of Christ,
and Adam (man) is the head of woman.

That is also WHY a woman is not to teach or have authority over a man in the church - it creates a false image of God (is Christ the Head of God?)

False images of God create confusion, disorder and chaos, and is of the darkness.

Believe it or not, it is the truth.

[howard]

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)


Within this verse you see the Son did not start with Mary, He simply came through Mary.

Note what the verse says, "Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

Now we see who was doing the talking and also who was being spoken to. The Father and the Son are in this joint venture.

Through the Son the world was made.

Let's skip down to the 5th verse.

[howard]

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1:5)
He never said to an angel, "thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." Let's continue.
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, "And let all the angels of God worship him.

[howard]

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)


Within this verse you see the Son did not start with Mary, He simply came through Mary.

Note what the verse says, "Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

Now we see who was doing the talking and also who was being spoken to. The Father and the Son are in this joint venture.

Through the Son the world was made.

Let's skip down to the 5th verse.

The Godhead is the image of the "Us" (Elohim; is distinctly plural, and definitely TWO; no more no less)

And the Godhead is the Doctrine of the Father and the Son.

That's why churchianity (modern Babylon; the mother of all harlots) has lifted up the idol of the Trinity, to hide the face of the Godhead and instead establish their own authority.

Here is the image of God that God created man(kind) in:

Just as Christ came forth from God
Eve came forth from Adam.

That is WHY God is the HEAD of Christ,
and Adam (man) is the head of woman.

That is also WHY a woman is not to teach or have authority over a man in the church - it creates a false image of God (is Christ the Head of God?)

False images of God create confusion, disorder and chaos, and is of the darkness.

Believe it or not, it is the truth.

I concur

Yet you will have to put the word of God to prove it and mans history to verify your points

The trinity is engrained into the mind set of the people

This is a Roman Catholic doctrine that Martin Luther embraced even though he separated from the RC church.

[howard]

This is a sensitive subject . This is a topic that if you disagree bad things are wished upon you

Yet this is a subject for mature Christians. The meat eaters and not the milk drinkers.

Thanks for chiming in.

How did you come to the understanding that there is two in te Godhead?

[howard]

I've been on forums for almost 10 years and you are the first to admit 2

You are the first to call it by its correct name God Head

One of the biggest mysteries to me is how can the Protestants grab hold to a Roman Catholic and Orthodox doctrine.

[howard]

Wait a minute Scotty

The Lord had written that we prove all things. 

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV)
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

We are instructed to teach

Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

God don't want to destroy any one except Satan an besides we have some great people on Grace centered
I understand what you at saying but we dont want people to be destroyed without hearing a doctrine that is not denominational.

[howard]

The Lord has blessed you to understand the Godhead
You cant keep it to yourself you have to share it with others.
You have to put the verses to go with it.
Granted people will think you are crazy as they did Jesus.

Let's look at something that Jesus did when encountered the chief sinner

Matthew 4:1,3-7 (KJV)
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. [3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. [5] Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, [6] And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. [7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Notice Jesus used the word of God to answer Satan

[howard]

Notice something very important, the Father is calling the Son, God. "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

I can't understand why some sects have a problem with the Son being God.

If Jesus is the Son of God, what would that make Him?

God!

When a horse has offspring, is it called a dog?

No, a horse.

Some people make things that are so simple difficult. Now, let's go to the book of John and see which one of the Godhead members was doing the talking.

[howard]

Last week I had a Unitarian tell me that Jesus is not God
He said Jesus is a immortal man.

I'm still trying to understand his theory

[howard]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)


The Word was the one that was doing the talking, which is Jesus.

He is the Son of God correct?

In the beginning the Word was known as Yahweh or Jehovah. When the Word came in the flesh He took upon Himself His Fathers name which is Jesus.

There was no Father and Son in the beginning it was only God.

The word God was translated from the Hebrew word Elohim. Elohim is a uni-plural word in Hebrew, meaning one office but more than one participant.

Take another look at the three verses above.

How many members do you see?

Note this part of the verse, "In the beginning was the Word." That's one member. Notice the next part, "and the Word was with God."

Being that the "Word" is Jesus and in this case "God" meaning the Father, how many do you see? (Two) Where is the Holy Ghost? Shouldn't he be in the beginning also?

[ScottyB]

Wait a minute Scotty

The Lord had written that we prove all things. 

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV)
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Prove it to YOURSELF, even to the level of determining the Perfect will of God.

I HAVE been teaching, and enduring stonings, lynch mobs, evil people of every kind, liars, scoundrels, slanderers, etc... for many decades.   I have found very very few who have a willing heart, and fewer still who will endure sound doctrine.

[ScottyB]

I've been on forums for almost 10 years and you are the first to admit 2

You are the first to call it by its correct name God Head

One of the biggest mysteries to me is how can the Protestants grab hold to a Roman Catholic and Orthodox doctrine.

Since God The Father has given ALL CREATED THINGS to Christ Jesus, and charged Christ with "not losing anything" that He gave to Christ; who then can be lost for eternity?

The answer is in the God Head.

God is the Head of Christ.
Christ is the Head of every man.
Man is the Head of woman.

And just as:

Christ came out of God (and returns to Him as His will is fulfilled),
So too is all mankind made out of and came out his Head which is Christ...

As man and woman together are ONE...  see?

So when Christ puts down ALL Authority and everything returns into its Head...

The ONLY Authority shall be God, and He shall be all, and in all.

What God has put together (through the God Head) let no man put asunder.

Get it?

[ScottyB]

How is it that I know these things?

Simple.

Jesus Christ is my Father, in fact; m "Everlasting Father".
And as He promised; I am His son.

Your brother in Christ,

[howard]

 Let's return to the scripture and see if we can find the alleged third member. Pay close attention to this 1st verse in the 110th Psalm.


A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Psalms 110:1)


How many do you see in the scripture above?

The "Lord

[howard]

Let's go to the Book of Matthew and find out.


While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?

They say unto him, the son of David. He saith unto them, "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

[howard]

Colossians.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (Colossians 3:1)


Who sits at the right hand of God? Christ!

Once again we have two members in the Godhead.

We have a problem here, we can only locate 2 members.

Where is the elusive third member or is there a third God that sits on the left hand of the Father?