The Trinity, Fact or Fiction?

[Bitter Sweet]

I personally wouldn't continue in this debate if the mentality of the person whom you're trying to help see the truth is, "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up!". My beliefs do not come from the Nicene Creed, the RCC, or even any doctrine or man of denomination because the bible says:

Thank you for your honesty!

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

A person stuck in particular ways are not born of the spirit.

[Bitter Sweet]

Is the comforter only 1 person in particular? If so, who? As far as flesh goes we only know Jesus came in the flesh. Is the comforter flesh?

[Lively Stone]

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

That wasn't exactly the question... a simple true or false would suffice. Oh well. I do appreciate the time you took to answer your own question. 

I didn't have a question. I posted for your own clarification on the matter.

[bemark]

Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

Good post bemark. Nicely put.

Thanks

[bemark]

Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

This is the order in which it happened to me. When I was being led by the spirit, they were by far my ideas, in fact I had no idea what was going to happen next. I remember Memyself once mention a movie and seeing herself as a character in the movie which opened her eyes to an aspect of herself, this is how the spirit led me. Except this happened everywhere I looked. I always told myself I will never get married but the spirit also led me to my husband and I married him the first week we met. Everyone thought I was crazy because of this, I immediately stopped being a prostitute, my life changed completely. The spirit took me out of the world, I didn't understand why this was happening but I let it happen and I didn't fight against it. I knew it was right because of the positive changes in my life, I was being re-created. In the meantime I was one of those Atheist talking about things to do with the bible other than read it, I still hadn't read the bible. The spirit doesn't stop leading us even when we reject Jesus and God. I was being washed and renewed total cleansing without anything from me!

I would love to hear other peoples testimony's on how the spirit led them and changed their lives.

That's cool    really cool

[Bitter Sweet]

Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

This is the order in which it happened to me. When I was being led by the spirit, they were by far my ideas, in fact I had no idea what was going to happen next. I remember Memyself once mention a movie and seeing herself as a character in the movie which opened her eyes to an aspect of herself, this is how the spirit led me. Except this happened everywhere I looked. I always told myself I will never get married but the spirit also led me to my husband and I married him the first week we met. Everyone thought I was crazy because of this, I immediately stopped being a prostitute, my life changed completely. The spirit took me out of the world, I didn't understand why this was happening but I let it happen and I didn't fight against it. I knew it was right because of the positive changes in my life, I was being re-created. In the meantime I was one of those Atheist talking about things to do with the bible other than read it, I still hadn't read the bible. The spirit doesn't stop leading us even when we reject Jesus and God. I was being washed and renewed total cleansing without anything from me!

I would love to hear other peoples testimony's on how the spirit led them and changed their lives.

That's cool    really cool

Thank God! It wasn't me, but I'll tell you what, it was one of the best roller coaster rides of my life!

[bemark]

Bitter sweet you took me back to when the Holy Spirit was drawing me.My game set and all my records where stolen and in that time I came to him.The very first day that I felt clean,  the day that I felt peace like no other,  the day that I started to get to know him and feel his presence flow upon me through me like water.

[Bitter Sweet]

Bitter sweet you took me back to when the Holy Spirit was drawing me.My game set and all my records where stolen and in that time I came to him.The very first day that I felt clean,  the day that I felt peace like no other,  the day that I started to get to know him and feel his presence flow upon me through me like water.

Beautiful!

I didn't realize I was being cleansed, I just let it happen. If I knew then what was happening, I don't know if I would have been able to handle it they way I did. I just thought the power was coming from me, everything being shown was about me, I thought I was controlling it but then I had no idea what I was going to see or happen next. When I did put my thought or idea of what something was into the mix, I was stopped in my tracks and I didn't fight it. The spirit truly does flow like water through our conscious.

[Lively Stone]

Bitter sweet you took me back to when the Holy Spirit was drawing me.My game set and all my records where stolen and in that time I came to him.The very first day that I felt clean,  the day that I felt peace like no other,  the day that I started to get to know him and feel his presence flow upon me through me like water.

Beautiful!

I didn't realize I was being cleansed, I just let it happen. If I knew then what was happening, I don't know if I would have been able to handle it they way I did. I just thought the power was coming from me, everything being shown was about me, I thought I was controlling it but then I had no idea what I was going to see or happen next. When I did put my thought or idea of what something was into the mix, I was stopped in my tracks and I didn't fight it. The spirit truly does flow like water through our conscious.

Please don't take others' experiences as the same as your own, BS. Whatever you experienced was not cleansing. You had no idea of Jesus Christ at the time, did you? Only His blood can cleanse us from all sin. Until you have come to accept Jesus' sacrifice for you personally, you would not have been cleansed or saved. Perhaps what happened to you was God's way of waking you up to Him---just a beginning of a journey to find Jesus and salvation.

[raggthyme7]

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

That wasn't exactly the question... a simple true or false would suffice. Oh well. I do appreciate the time you took to answer your own question. 

I didn't have a question. I posted for your own clarification on the matter.

Sheesh! How hard is it to get one simple answer?

You said:

"Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?"

Looks like the form of a question to me.. has the proper punctuation and everything. But it's not my question. I asked you specifically if the following statement was

a. true or

b. false

"Nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc. "

All you had to say was a.. or b 

[Lively Stone]

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

That wasn't exactly the question... a simple true or false would suffice. Oh well. I do appreciate the time you took to answer your own question. 

I didn't have a question. I posted for your own clarification on the matter.

Sheesh! How hard is it to get one simple answer?

You said:

"Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?"

Looks like the form of a question to me.. has the proper punctuation and everything. But it's not my question. I asked you specifically if the following statement was

a. true or

b. false

"Nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc. "

All you had to say was a.. or b 

It was rhetorical---pertaining to what I posted  following.

Your little question doesn't mean anything. Just because certain verses you want to be in scripture aren't there doesn't mean that the family relationship between Father, son and Spirit doesn't exist. The word teaches it. God is Love.

[bemark]

Bitter sweet you took me back to when the Holy Spirit was drawing me.My game set and all my records where stolen and in that time I came to him.The very first day that I felt clean,  the day that I felt peace like no other,  the day that I started to get to know him and feel his presence flow upon me through me like water.

Beautiful!

I didn't realize I was being cleansed, I just let it happen. If I knew then what was happening, I don't know if I would have been able to handle it they way I did. I just thought the power was coming from me, everything being shown was about me, I thought I was controlling it but then I had no idea what I was going to see or happen next. When I did put my thought or idea of what something was into the mix, I was stopped in my tracks and I didn't fight it. The spirit truly does flow like water through our conscious.

Please don't take others' experiences as the same as your own, BS. Whatever you experienced was not cleansing. You had no idea of Jesus Christ at the time, did you? Only His blood can cleanse us from all sin. Until you have come to accept Jesus' sacrifice for you personally, you would not have been cleansed or saved. Perhaps what happened to you was God's way of waking you up to Him---just a beginning of a journey to find Jesus and salvation.

I agree with you Lively its when you receive him and Bitter sweet it sure is a roller coaster ride to remember alright.

[Bitter Sweet]

2 Corinthians 5:13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 

Just living the word! Of course, that was just the beginning!

[raggthyme7]

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

That wasn't exactly the question... a simple true or false would suffice. Oh well. I do appreciate the time you took to answer your own question. 

I didn't have a question. I posted for your own clarification on the matter.

Sheesh! How hard is it to get one simple answer?

You said:

"Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?"

Looks like the form of a question to me.. has the proper punctuation and everything. But it's not my question. I asked you specifically if the following statement was

a. true or

b. false

"Nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc. "

All you had to say was a.. or b 

Your little question doesn't mean anything. Just because certain verses you want to be in scripture aren't there doesn't mean that the family relationship between Father, son and Spirit doesn't exist. The word teaches it. God is Love.

Ok, a. true. Thank you.

Hmmm, there is a family relationship mentioned many times between the only true God and His Beloved Son.

I find it strange that you believe so strongly in something that cannot be substantiated by the Bible.

You admit the verses aren't there to prove the Father and Son have a love relationship with another person called the Holy Spirit but then you contradict yourself saying the Bible teaches it.   

Yes, God is love... this does not prove God is three persons in one.

God is One:

Speaking to the Father Jesus says,

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3

According to the trinitarian belief, the verse should read,

"This is eternal life, that they may know [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."


See how this makes no sense... God the Father is One... not three. By your own admission the Father is only one of three persons and that these three make up the only true God. According to John 17:3 you would need to reconsider your definition of God. This verse would be saying God the Father is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Trinitarianism breeds confusion for the one who wants only to believe God's word.

Read the Bible folks, God the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD... and Jesus Christ is His only Begotten Son...

Jehovah Witnesses use this verse to prove Jesus is a created being, but they are ignorant of the fact that God begets God. Jesus Christ is rightly called God because He is of the one true God.

Stick with the Bible, not the creeds of men.

[Lively Stone]

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

That wasn't exactly the question... a simple true or false would suffice. Oh well. I do appreciate the time you took to answer your own question. 

I didn't have a question. I posted for your own clarification on the matter.

Sheesh! How hard is it to get one simple answer?

You said:

"Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?"

Looks like the form of a question to me.. has the proper punctuation and everything. But it's not my question. I asked you specifically if the following statement was

a. true or

b. false

"Nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc. "

All you had to say was a.. or b 

Your little question doesn't mean anything. Just because certain verses you want to be in scripture aren't there doesn't mean that the family relationship between Father, son and Spirit doesn't exist. The word teaches it. God is Love.

Ok, a. true. Thank you.

Hmmm, there is a family relationship mentioned many times between the only true God and His Beloved Son.

I find it strange that you believe so strongly in something that cannot be substantiated by the Bible.

You admit the verses aren't there to prove the Father and Son have a love relationship with another person called the Holy Spirit but then you contradict yourself saying the Bible teaches it.

Yes, God is love... this does not prove God is three persons in one.

God is One:

Speaking to the Father Jesus says,

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3

According to the trinitarian belief, the verse should read,

"This is eternal life, that they may know [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."


See how this makes no sense... God the Father is One... not three. By your own admission the Father is one of three persons and that these three make up the only true God. According to John 17:3 you would need to reconsider your definition of God. This verse would be saying God the Father is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Trinitarianism breeds confusion for the one who wants only to believe God's word.

Read the Bible folks, God the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD... and Jesus Christ is His only Begotten Son...

Jehovah Witnesses use this verse to prove Jesus is a created being, but they are ignorant of the fact that God begets God. Jesus Christ is rightly called God because He is of the one true God.

Stick with the Bible, not the creeds of men.

The Bible teaches that God is Three in One. It is substantiated all throughout.

[raggthyme7]

The Bible teaches that God is Three in One. It is substantiated all throughout.

Are you saying the "only true God" is three in one???

I want to hear how you wiggle around John 17:3. The Father is only one of three persons, according to trinitarianism. According to Jesus, the Father is the one and "only true God". Because everything comes from Him... He is not dependent upon any other for life. Jesus said He lives because of the Father... you cannot say the Father lives because of anyone. He is the only true [Unbegotten] God!

According to John 17:3, you are then saying the Father is

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Nonsense and confusion. Yet the trinitarian will comfort the poor soul who struggles with this confusion by saying "man just cannot understand the mystery of the Godhead." Not buying it.

[ChristNU]

The Bible teaches that God is Three in One. It is substantiated all throughout.

Are you saying the "only true God" is three in one???

I want to hear how you wiggle around John 17:3. The Father is only one of three persons, according to trinitarianism. According to Jesus, the Father is the one and "only true God". Because everything comes from Him... He is not dependent upon any other for life. Jesus said He lives because of the Father... you cannot say the Father lives because of anyone. He is the only true [Unbegotten] God!

This is simply not true. God is One. Take away any of the Three who comprise the One, and God would cease to be God.

[raggthyme7]

The Bible teaches that God is Three in One. It is substantiated all throughout.

Are you saying the "only true God" is three in one???

I want to hear how you wiggle around John 17:3. The Father is only one of three persons, according to trinitarianism. According to Jesus, the Father is the one and "only true God". Because everything comes from Him... He is not dependent upon any other for life. Jesus said He lives because of the Father... you cannot say the Father lives because of anyone. He is the only true [Unbegotten] God!

This is simply not true. God is One. Take away any of the Three who comprise the One, and God would cease to be God.

The Father is the "only true God", not true? (John 17:3)

Jesus lives because of the Father, not true? (John 6:57)

Is the Father dependent upon anyone for life?



IS THE FATHER: FATHER, SON AND SPIRIT?

(not yelling, just emphasizing) 

Sounds like you have a beef with the Bible. If you love Jesus, believe Him: The Father is the one and only true God, and Jesus Christ is the One whom He sent.

The Father Himself is NOT three persons in one.

[ChristNU]

The Bible teaches that God is Three in One. It is substantiated all throughout.

Are you saying the "only true God" is three in one???

I want to hear how you wiggle around John 17:3. The Father is only one of three persons, according to trinitarianism. According to Jesus, the Father is the one and "only true God". Because everything comes from Him... He is not dependent upon any other for life. Jesus said He lives because of the Father... you cannot say the Father lives because of anyone. He is the only true [Unbegotten] God!

This is simply not true. God is One. Take away any of the Three who comprise the One, and God would cease to be God.

The Father is the "only true God", not true? (John 17:3)

Jesus lives because of the Father, not true? (John 6:57)

Is the Father dependent upon anyone for life?



IS THE FATHER: FATHER, SON AND SPIRIT?

(not yelling, just emphasizing) 

Sounds like you have a beef with the Bible. If you love Jesus, believe Him. The Father is the one and only true God.

The Father Himself is NOT three in one.

Are you not the one who believes that Jesus and the Father are together God?

But we know that God is One, and that is where any of our thoughts about the nature of God must begin. Even discounting the HS as you do, you must recognize that if God is One but comprised of two as you believe, then it would be impossible to take away either the Father or the Son and still have God. Because even in your belief the God who is One is comprised of two.

[raggthyme7]

Are you not the one who believes that Jesus and the Father are together God?

But we know that God is One, and that is where any of our thoughts about the nature of God must begin. Even discounting the HS as you do, you must recognize that if God is One but comprised of two as you believe, then it would be impossible to take away either the Father or the Son and still have God. Because even in your belief the God who is One is comprised of two.

I am not aware of a time when I said that the Father was 2 persons in one, both Father and Son. I do recall saying that the Father is the only Unbegotten God and the Son is God begotten of the Father. He shares in His nature.. because God begets God, but He is not the true Unbegotten God. There is a distinction. One is the Begetter, the other the Begotten. One is greater. Jesus made this clear, we should heed His words. The Son is worthy of worship because the Father commands it (Heb 1) for He does not give His glory to another [besides Him.]

The term "GOD" may be applied to both, since the true God begets God, not a creature. All "creation" is either made from nothing (or from existing materials.)

But no, I do not believe the one true God is Father and Son, the one true God has a Son, and John 17:3 says He sent Him to us. And the Bible testifies of this intimate relationship between these two distinct persons.

I'm sorry If I did not (before) make that clear. I am not a binitarian.

ps- I do not discount the HS as you say, I just do not accept this "three persons in one God" doctrine.

[ChristNU]

Are you not the one who believes that Jesus and the Father are together God?

But we know that God is One, and that is where any of our thoughts about the nature of God must begin. Even discounting the HS as you do, you must recognize that if God is One but comprised of two as you believe, then it would be impossible to take away either the Father or the Son and still have God. Because even in your belief the God who is One is comprised of two.

I am not aware of a time when I said that the Father was 2 persons in one, both Father and Son. I do recall saying that the Father is the only Unbegotten God and the Son is God begotten of the Father. He shares in His nature.. because God begets God, but He is not the true Unbegotten God. There is a distinction. One is the Begetter, the other the Begotten. One is greater. Jesus made this clear, we should heed His words. The Son is worthy of worship because the Father commands it (Heb 1) for He does not give His glory to another [besides Him.]

The term "GOD" may be applied to both, since the true God begets God, not a creature. All "creation" is either made from nothing (or from existing materials.)

But no, I do not believe the one true God is Father and Son, the one true God has a Son, and John 17:3 says He sent Him to us. And the Bible testifies of this intimate relationship between these two distinct persons.

ps- I do not discount the HS as you say, I just do not accept the "three persons in one God" doctrine.

So you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God??

[Johnb]

raggthyme7
Are you familiar with Barton Stone's view of the trinity doctrine?

[Johnb]

ChristNU said
So you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God??

That does not necessarily follow.

[ChristNU]

ChristNU said
So you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God??

That does not necessarily follow.

Well, why don't we just wait and see what she says?   

[howard]

The word 'person' is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word 'person' is appropriate.  A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say 'you,' 'yours,' 'me,' 'mine,' etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

They are each called God:
Father: Phil. 1:2
Son: John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9
Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3-4

Each has a will:
Father: Luke 22:42
Son: Luke 22:42
Holy Spirit:1 Cor. 12:11

Each is all-knowing:
Father: 1 John 3:20
Son: John 16:30; 21:17
Holy Spirit: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

Each has a will:
Father: Luke 22:42
Son: Luke 22:42
Holy Spirit: 1 Cor. 12:11

Each speaks:
Father: Matt. 3:17
Son: Luke 5:20
Holy Spirit: Acts 8:29; 13:2

Acts 5 does not call the HS God
Now we're in the bible is the HS called God

In Acts 5 a vow is made now we need to learn how do the Lord get our prayers or vows

This is what happened in Acts 5

Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 (KJV)
When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

[5] Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

6] Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

A vow was made and vows ate made to God

Jesus told us who to pray to and ask for things to

When we pray or ask for things we pray or ask the Father not the HS

Matthew 6:7-9 (KJV)
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[8] Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

[raggthyme7]

raggthyme7
Are you familiar with Barton Stone's view of the trinity doctrine?

No, I'm not. I'll have to look that up. I find myself unable to adhere to any common theology, I'm not a trinitarian. I'm not a binitarian, And I'm not a unitarian. I don't believe in Modalism.. that one God manifests Himself in three different modes. (I didn't look that up so if I'm off a bit, sorry to any Modalists out there) If Phillips, Craig or Dean happen to be reading this, please clarify. 

I read Dialogue with Trypho many years ago and came to consider Justin's understanding of God from the Scriptures.. and though I disagree with him on certain aspects, I believe his understanding of this subject is much closer to Bible truth than any of the above.

[raggthyme7]

ChristNU said
So you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God??

That does not necessarily follow.

Well, why don't we just wait and see what she says?   

I just said I believe the Son is God by nature but this is because He is begotten of God. God begets God, Jesus is not created. He is also worthy of worship for the Father commands it. But Jesus is not the only true [Unbegotten] God. He is His Beloved Son, the one with whom He shares His glory. He lives because of the Father, the Father lives because of no one.

[ChristNU]

ChristNU said
So you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God??

That does not necessarily follow.

Well, why don't we just wait and see what she says?   

I just said I believe the Son is God by nature but this is because He is begotten of God. God begets God, Jesus is not created. He is also worthy of worship for the Father commands it. But Jesus is not the only true [Unbegotten] God. He is His Beloved Son, the one with whom He shares His glory. He lives because of the Father, the Father lives because of no one.

And this is something that somehow makes more sense to you than the Trinity? Really?

What you describe is not a God who is One, but a God who is two. This contradicts Gods own revelation of Himself in scripture. You have a greater God and a lessor God, two Gods...not the One True God of the bible who is One.

If I have misunderstood please explain what it is you actually believe.

[raggthyme7]

And this is something that somehow makes more sense to you than the Trinity? Really?

What you describe is not a God who is One, but a God who is two. This contradicts Gods own revelation of Himself in scripture. You have a greater God and a lessor God, two Gods...not the One True God of the bible who is One.

If I have misunderstood please explain what it is you actually believe.

First, yes. The trinity caused only confusion when I read the Bible.

Again, neither am I a binitarian, they believe that the one true God exists in two persons... "Father and Son." This would also contradict Jesus statement in John 17:3. It would then read:

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You [Father and Son] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

This makes no more sense than implementing the trinitarian view of "God" here.

The one view of the only true God that makes perfect sense is this:

That they may know You [Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

I understand from Scripture that there is only one true God: the Father. (The Father is not three in one) This true God has a Son, not made, but begotten of His own substance (for lack of a better term). He is worshipped as God because He is worthy.. He is the only Begotten God.

You may see a greater God and a lesser God and have a problem with this, and I cannot explain it any better than I have. But David had no problem with this, saying, "The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand..." One is greater in that He is the Begetter and the Sender. Jesus told us this. The other is the Begotten and the Sent, and the One who ministers unto the Father's will. He derives His being from His Father, He shares in His glory because that is the Father's will, we worship Him because that is the Father's will.

I once read that the trinity was formulated out of a conundrum of sorts: The Bible says there is only one true God, and yet we are told to worship Jesus. Therefore God must be more than one person, for we already have the Father. Jesus must be the second person of that one God. This way no one commits idolatry in their worship of Christ.

I take a simpler approach.

* The Father is the one true God, and we are to worship no false god's, no statues, no creature. This would be committing idolatry.

* We worship Jesus why? Because He must be part of the Godhead? No, but because the Father commands it. He is not a false god, He is God's holy Son. I have no issue with that at all. In fact I don't see the big deal made by trinitarians.. saying unless Jesus is God (the only true God) He cannot be worshipped. Who says? God says the opposite.

[ChristNU]

And this is something that somehow makes more sense to you than the Trinity? Really?

What you describe is not a God who is One, but a God who is two. This contradicts Gods own revelation of Himself in scripture. You have a greater God and a lessor God, two Gods...not the One True God of the bible who is One.

If I have misunderstood please explain what it is you actually believe.

First, yes. The trinity caused only confusion when I read the Bible.

Again, neither am I a binitarian, they believe that the one true God exists in two persons... "Father and Son." This would also contradict Jesus statement in John 17:3. It would then read:

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You [Father and Son] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

This makes no more sense than implementing the trinitarian view of "God" here.

The one view of the only true God that makes perfect sense is this:

That they may know You [Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

I understand from Scripture that there is only one true God: the Father. (The Father is not three in one) This true God has a Son, not made, but begotten of His own substance (for lack of a better term). He is worshipped as God because He is worthy.. He is the only Begotten God.

You may see a greater God and a lesser God and have a problem with this, and I cannot explain it any better than I have. But David had no problem with this, saying, "The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand..." One is greater in that He is the Begetter and the Sender. Jesus told us this. The other is the Begotten and the Sent, and the One who ministers unto the Father's will. He derives His being from His Father, He shares in His glory because that is the Father's will, we worship Him because that is the Father's will.

I once read that the trinity was formulated out of a conundrum of sorts: The Bible says there is only one true God, and yet we are told to worship Jesus. Therefore God must be more than one person, for we already have the Father. Jesus must be the second person of that one God. This way no one commits idolatry in their worship of Christ.

I take a simpler approach.

* The Father is the one true God, and we are to worship no false god's, no statues, no creature. This would be committing idolatry.

* We worship Jesus why? Because He must be part of the Godhead? No, but because the Father commands it. He is not a false god, He is God's holy Son. I have no issue with that at all. In fact I don't see the big deal made by trinitarians.. saying unless Jesus is God (the only true God) He cannot be worshipped. Who says? God says the opposite.

Okay, I gotcha now. Just so you know, what you believe is called "subordinationism"...the belief in the ontological superiority or inferiority of divine persons. The reason it has been rejected by Christianity is because, just as you have shown, you end up with demi-gods and second class deities; which destroys the essential oneness of God.

[HRoberson]

And this is something that somehow makes more sense to you than the Trinity? Really?

What you describe is not a God who is One, but a God who is two. This contradicts Gods own revelation of Himself in scripture. You have a greater God and a lessor God, two Gods...not the One True God of the bible who is One.

If I have misunderstood please explain what it is you actually believe.

First, yes. The trinity caused only confusion when I read the Bible.

Again, neither am I a binitarian, they believe that the one true God exists in two persons... "Father and Son." This would also contradict Jesus statement in John 17:3. It would then read:

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You [Father and Son] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

This makes no more sense than implementing the trinitarian view of "God" here.

The one view of the only true God that makes perfect sense is this:

That they may know You [Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

I understand from Scripture that there is only one true God: the Father. (The Father is not three in one) This true God has a Son, not made, but begotten of His own substance (for lack of a better term). He is worshipped as God because He is worthy.. He is the only Begotten God.

You may see a greater God and a lesser God and have a problem with this, and I cannot explain it any better than I have. But David had no problem with this, saying, "The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand..." One is greater in that He is the Begetter and the Sender. Jesus told us this. The other is the Begotten and the Sent, and the One who ministers unto the Father's will. He derives His being from His Father, He shares in His glory because that is the Father's will, we worship Him because that is the Father's will.

I once read that the trinity was formulated out of a conundrum of sorts: The Bible says there is only one true God, and yet we are told to worship Jesus. Therefore God must be more than one person, for we already have the Father. Jesus must be the second person of that one God. This way no one commits idolatry in their worship of Christ.

I take a simpler approach.

* The Father is the one true God, and we are to worship no false god's, no statues, no creature. This would be committing idolatry.

* We worship Jesus why? Because He must be part of the Godhead? No, but because the Father commands it. He is not a false god, He is God's holy Son. I have no issue with that at all. In fact I don't see the big deal made by trinitarians.. saying unless Jesus is God (the only true God) He cannot be worshipped. Who says? God says the opposite.

Okay, I gotcha now. Just so you know, what you believe is called "subordinationism"...the belief in the ontological superiority or inferiority of divine persons. The reason it has been rejected by Christianity is because, just as you have shown, you end up with demi-gods and second class deities; which destroys the essential oneness of God.

Of course the essential oneness of God in the sense of Trinity is a presupposition of the folks that won the council debate. It's a lot like saying you lost because you didn't agree with us.

[Lively Stone]

The Bible teaches that God is Three in One. It is substantiated all throughout.

Are you saying the "only true God" is three in one???

I want to hear how you wiggle around John 17:3. The Father is only one of three persons, according to trinitarianism. According to Jesus, the Father is the one and "only true God". Because everything comes from Him... He is not dependent upon any other for life. Jesus said He lives because of the Father... you cannot say the Father lives because of anyone. He is the only true [Unbegotten] God!

According to John 17:3, you are then saying the Father is

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Nonsense and confusion. Yet the trinitarian will comfort the poor soul who struggles with this confusion by saying "man just cannot understand the mystery of the Godhead." Not buying it.

God consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nothing confusing about it.

[raggthyme7]

Okay, I gotcha now. Just so you know, what you believe is called "subordinationism"...the belief in the ontological superiority or inferiority of divine persons. The reason it has been rejected by Christianity is because, just as you have shown, you end up with demi-gods and second class deities; which destroys the essential oneness of God.

subordinationism
  the theological tenet of progressively declining essence within the Trinity. —     subordinationist, n.

  a doctrine in theology: the second and third persons of the Trinity are subordinate   (as in order or essence) to the first person and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Son.

Nope, not that either. Subordinationists still believe in a trinity.

[Lively Stone]

The word 'person' is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word 'person' is appropriate.  A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say 'you,' 'yours,' 'me,' 'mine,' etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

They are each called God:
Father: Phil. 1:2
Son: John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9
Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3-4

Each has a will:
Father: Luke 22:42
Son: Luke 22:42
Holy Spirit:1 Cor. 12:11

Each is all-knowing:
Father: 1 John 3:20
Son: John 16:30; 21:17
Holy Spirit: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

Each has a will:
Father: Luke 22:42
Son: Luke 22:42
Holy Spirit: 1 Cor. 12:11

Each speaks:
Father: Matt. 3:17
Son: Luke 5:20
Holy Spirit: Acts 8:29; 13:2

Acts 5 does not call the HS God
Now we're in the bible is the HS called God

Yes it does call Holy Spirit God. Now you are arguing with God.

In Acts 5 a vow is made now we need to learn how do the Lord get our prayers or vows

This is what happened in Acts 5

Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 (KJV)
When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

[5] Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

6] Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

A vow was made and vows ate made to God

Jesus told us who to pray to and ask for things to

When we pray or ask for things we pray or ask the Father not the HS

Matthew 6:7-9 (KJV)
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[8] Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Why are you changing the subject?

[raggthyme7]

Nothing confusing about it.

That's funny, Lively!