Split from:"go to church, somewhere, this Sunday..."

[Willie T]

(Copy from Above) "Mike's faith was probably shakey and couple that with some intense proselytyzing and voila, he now believes orthodoxy is false. I've seen this before. Give him some time and he just may see the error in embracing this modernist form of Christianity. These "born again" moments can sometimes fade fast."

Mike was a Catholic for over 20 years. His family have been faithful Catholics for a long long time. He told me that he always felt that something was just not quite right in the Catholic church but he couldn't put his finger on it, until he experienced Christ in his rebirth six years ago.  He came to Christ without any "intense proselytyzing" on man's part, instead it was all from the Holy Spirit.  Proof of his conversion is in his desire for his family to also experience the Risen Saviour as he has done. 

By "orthodoxy" I assume you mean the basic tenets of the Christian faith that all Christian faiths adhere to; if so then no he has not abandoned any of them. What he has abandoned is all the false teachings of the RCC.

"Modernist form of Christianity?"  I wouldn't call it "modernist", Jesus Christ Himself said "you must be born again" about 2000 years ago and this is what not only Mike has experienced but EVERY Christian MUST experience if they are to enter heaven.

Ben

So come on, tell me these false teachings of the RCC.  Are they the Trinity? Jesus as God Incarnate here on earth? Forgiveness of our sins through Jesus Christ? The Virgin Birth? Pentecost? Heaven? Hell? His presence in the Holy Eucharist? Being saved through the grace of God? Along with good works? Baptism? Annointing of the sick? (healing) Deacons? Bishops? Priests? (The laying on of hands as in ordination) The re-enactment of the Last Supper? Communion? Purgation? The power to forgive sins? The power to bind things here on earth which shall also be bound in heaven?

Everyone of those things come direct from the Holy Scriptures and believed and taught to the faithful by the Latin Rite.  Please tell me which one's aren't true.

About half of those things you mentioned are wrong.  But you've already been shown that by others here.
The main thing that puts the RCC in error is duping people into worshiping Catholism.  As I posted earlier, you honestly cannot worship without all the trappings.   Think you can?  Really?  Then....... try it for a month.  You'll have a whole building full of people ready to hang YOU on a cross.
And you know that is a fact.

[Willie T]

You do realize that Jesus Himself had a lot of "man" as he worshipped too, right? I mean he did probably observe most, if not all, of the Jewish rituals, observances, and festivals. Do you think he wore a prayer shawl in the Temple? (Which by the way was probably a very beautiful place.) Did he wear his best clothes? Keep kosher? The blowing of the Rams horn? Are these things of men, or of God?

And that is why the Jews appreciated and honored Him so much, and elevated Him in their religion?

What happened was God's plan. You know that was not possible, they had to reject Christ, to set in motion the crucifixion, so that all men (the gentiles) could now be saved.

Yes, but you see when Jesus first started His ministry (The wedding at Cana), He told His mother "My time has not yet come".  It seems she kind of pulled the trigger on the whole show.  Maybe a couple of days early?  Probably God's plan.

So, from that day, forward, He was no longer the "compliant" Jew.  His minstry started.  At that point He started to become a thorn in the side of the Pharisees - a hunted man soon thereafter, and almost constantly on the run, so to speak, for the next three years........ during which time, He kicked into high-gear, the plan to overturn the Jewish religious hierarchy........ to destroy the religiosity Judaism had become.

Ah, but the Jewish heirarchy was not destroyed, it continued on. His message was most throughly accepted by the Gentiles, with only a small portion of Jewry accepting Him as the Messiah. Yes, all part of God's plan.

He who created the world, and everything in it, surely had His plan of salvation starting out at the right time.

And all those Gentiles taught by..... ex-followers of Judaism.

[Ladonia]

(Copy from Above) "Mike's faith was probably shakey and couple that with some intense proselytyzing and voila, he now believes orthodoxy is false. I've seen this before. Give him some time and he just may see the error in embracing this modernist form of Christianity. These "born again" moments can sometimes fade fast."

Mike was a Catholic for over 20 years. His family have been faithful Catholics for a long long time. He told me that he always felt that something was just not quite right in the Catholic church but he couldn't put his finger on it, until he experienced Christ in his rebirth six years ago.  He came to Christ without any "intense proselytyzing" on man's part, instead it was all from the Holy Spirit.  Proof of his conversion is in his desire for his family to also experience the Risen Saviour as he has done. 

By "orthodoxy" I assume you mean the basic tenets of the Christian faith that all Christian faiths adhere to; if so then no he has not abandoned any of them. What he has abandoned is all the false teachings of the RCC.

"Modernist form of Christianity?"  I wouldn't call it "modernist", Jesus Christ Himself said "you must be born again" about 2000 years ago and this is what not only Mike has experienced but EVERY Christian MUST experience if they are to enter heaven.

Ben

So come on, tell me these false teachings of the RCC.  Are they the Trinity? Jesus as God Incarnate here on earth? Forgiveness of our sins through Jesus Christ? The Virgin Birth? Pentecost? Heaven? Hell? His presence in the Holy Eucharist? Being saved through the grace of God? Along with good works? Baptism? Annointing of the sick? (healing) Deacons? Bishops? Priests? (The laying on of hands as in ordination) The re-enactment of the Last Supper? Communion? Purgation? The power to forgive sins? The power to bind things here on earth which shall also be bound in heaven?

Everyone of those things come direct from the Holy Scriptures and believed and taught to the faithful by the Latin Rite.  Please tell me which one's aren't true.

About half of those things you mentioned are wrong.  But you've already been shown that by others here.
The main thing that puts the RCC in error is duping people into worshiping Catholism.  As I posted earlier, you honestly cannot worship without all the trappings.   Think you can?  Really?  Then....... try it for a month.  You'll have a whole building full of people ready to hang YOU on a cross.
And you know that is a fact.

Half are wrong? Then what you know about Christianity is quite limited.  And it's not about duping people into worshiping catholicism, but all about worshiping Jesus Christ, through the church which we believe He created here on earth to continue the mission of spreading the good news. Christ IS the church. We are the one's who follow his command to eat His body and drink His blood, to remember the sacrifice at calvary. Other Christian sects talk a good game, but we actually put it all into practice.

So, sorry my friend, worship is possible without all the trappings. Honestly.

From Mass being said on a battlefield on the hood of a jeep, to being said in someone's home, or a small chapel somewhere, I personally have no problem with any of them.

You know, the most intense Mass I have ever seen was one priest praying it all by himself in a small chapel at a retirement home. The look on his face as he worshipped was inspiring.

[Willie T]

Yeah, I've been there by the jeeps when they brought in these things to make the whole thing "legal" enough for the troops to swallow.

Here it is in picture form for you to see.

Why do you suppose it is that a simple, honest man just can't come in to pray with the troops?

[Ladonia]

Yeah, I've been there by the jeeps when they brought in these things to make the whole thing "legal" enough for the troops to swallow.

Are you upset about a communion kit? Lighten up!

[Willie T]

Yeah, I've been there by the jeeps when they brought in these things to make the whole thing "legal" enough for the troops to swallow.

Are you upset about a communion kit? Lighten up!

Read the last sentence of my last post?

[Catholica]

Yeah, I've been there by the jeeps when they brought in these things to make the whole thing "legal" enough for the troops to swallow.

Here it is in picture form for you to see.

Why do you suppose it is that a simple, honest man just can't come in to pray with the troops?

He can, he absolutely can.  A Catholic priest could, anyone could.  But it wouldn't be the same as receiving Jesus, body blood soul and divinity.

In reality none of those things are needed save for the bread and wine, a priest and a memory of the prayers needed for mass.  I know this because there are many priests who have been in prison camps consecrating hosts smuggled into the prison for them.  For those who believe, these priests have sustained people at the worst of times.  It probably saved their life, or at least their sanity.  Gave them hope.

You have the wrong idea that any of the other is necessary and you choose a platform of hate against it.  The reality is that, rather than being necessary, the rest of that stuff is completely superfluous.  Why have it?  Because we love God and want to give him the best because He is giving us His best: His own body and blood, soul and divinity, really truly and substantially present in the Holy Eucharist.  And some of it is made of specific material to protect the host, such as non-porous cups that prevent the blood from being absorbed into them.

We believe that the three attributes in which we can see God are Truth, Beauty, and Goodness.  The mass is intentionally very beautiful because that beauty is a reflection of God.

Your hate toward the trappings of the Catholic mass and religion in general are not going to comfort one person, is not going to save one person, is not going to set one person free.  Hatred and disdain are not from God.  They are entirely human, and thus are entirely incapable of doing any good whatsoever in God's kingdom.

[Ladonia]

Yeah, I've been there by the jeeps when they brought in these things to make the whole thing "legal" enough for the troops to swallow.

Here it is in picture form for you to see.

Why do you suppose it is that a simple, honest man just can't come in to pray with the troops?

He can, he absolutely can.  A Catholic priest could, anyone could.  But it wouldn't be the same as receiving Jesus, body blood soul and divinity.

In reality none of those things are needed save for the bread and wine, a priest and a memory of the prayers needed for mass.  I know this because there are many priests who have been in prison camps consecrating hosts smuggled into the prison for them.  For those who believe, these priests have sustained people at the worst of times.  It probably saved their life, or at least their sanity.  Gave them hope.

You have the wrong idea that any of the other is necessary and you choose a platform of hate against it.  The reality is that, rather than being necessary, the rest of that stuff is completely superfluous.  Why have it?  Because we love God and want to give him the best because He is giving us His best: His own body and blood, soul and divinity, really truly and substantially present in the Holy Eucharist.  And some of it is made of specific material to protect the host, such as non-porous cups that prevent the blood from being absorbed into them.

We believe that the three attributes in which we can see God are Truth, Beauty, and Goodness.  The mass is intentionally very beautiful because that beauty is a reflection of God.

Your hate toward the trappings of the Catholic mass and religion in general are not going to comfort one person, is not going to save one person, is not going to set one person free.  Hatred and disdain are not from God.  They are entirely human, and thus are entirely incapable of doing any good whatsoever in God's kingdom.

Very well said!

[Ladonia]

Yeah, I've been there by the jeeps when they brought in these things to make the whole thing "legal" enough for the troops to swallow.

Are you upset about a communion kit? Lighten up!

Read the last sentence of my last post?

I believe that the Mass in it's entirety is the most complete prayer to Almighty God. Nothing as it relates to His Son Jesus Christ and what He did for us is left out.

[Ben]

Copy from above: "His presence in the Holy Eucharist?"

If I understand the Holy Eucharist correctly it is a sacrifice. Supposedly in the Holy Eucharist, under the appearances of bread and wine, the Lord Christ is contained, offered, and received.  So I take this to mean that every time the Holy Eucharist is celebrated Christ is sacrificed all over again?  Please inform this stupid Protestant if this is true in the RCC.

Copy from above.  "Being saved through the grace of God? Along with good works?"

Yes we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.  No "good works" does not save anyone. Never did and never will.

Ben

[Catholica]

Copy from above: "His presence in the Holy Eucharist?"

If I understand the Holy Eucharist correctly it is a sacrifice. Supposedly in the Holy Eucharist, under the appearances of bread and wine, the Lord Christ is contained, offered, and received.  So I take this to mean that every time the Holy Eucharist is celebrated Christ is sacrificed all over again?  Please inform this stupid Protestant if this is true in the RCC.

No, Jesus is not sacrificed all over again. Rather the once for all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is made present again: the word in Greek is "anamnesis" often translated "in memory of" but in Jewish understanding meant much more.  The same meaning was given to the Jewish Passover, and in Jewish thought this anamnesis made the original Passover present as if it was happening now and then. Jesus linked the Passover to the Eucharist by using this same concept. So we believe that in the mass the one and same sacrifice made On Calvary is "re-presented" not sacrificed again.

[Ladonia]

Copy from above: "His presence in the Holy Eucharist?"

If I understand the Holy Eucharist correctly it is a sacrifice. Supposedly in the Holy Eucharist, under the appearances of bread and wine, the Lord Christ is contained, offered, and received.  So I take this to mean that every time the Holy Eucharist is celebrated Christ is sacrificed all over again?  Please inform this stupid Protestant if this is true in the RCC.

Copy from above.  "Being saved through the grace of God? Along with good works?"

Yes we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.  No "good works" does not save anyone. Never did and never will.

Ben

The Scriptures tell us that if a person continues to live a life of sin after believing in Christ as the Savior come that fateful day He will not know us. 

Good works go hand in hand with the saving Christ, and you are correct by saying by themselves they do nothing. Like Baptism, they are an important part of our salvation. Every Christian would do well to believe this.

[Ben]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

[Willie T]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Not too many people ever see that pure simplicity.  It's all Jesus really asked.  He KNOWS how much more is going to be done for Him because of love, but that simple statement is all He asks.     

[Ladonia]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Man has added the other stuff? Meaningless rubbish? Like what, baptism perhaps? Passage after passage descibes baptism as being essential for salvation. No? And then my favorite, from James which says:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Do the words of James not count?

The point is, the RCC leaves nothing out. The Church does just not grab onto one thing and say that is all there is. Yes, first and foremost, we believers are saved by the grace of God, but we can aslo lose that saving grace. It is not just one thing, but the many things that the Scriptures say have a part in our salvation.

[Lively Stone]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

[Ladonia]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

So tell me about this passage Lively Stone. Does it or does it not require belief AND baptism?  John 16:16 He that believth and IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believth not shall be damned.


Or this one from 1 Peter 21 which says: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So then, is not the act of getting baptized an action the WE must take that is a required part of the salvation process?

[Lively Stone]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

So tell me about this passage Lively Stone. Does it or does it not require belief AND baptism?  John 16:16 He that believth and IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believth not shall be damned.

It all has to do with belief.

Or this one from 1 Peter 21 which says: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So then, is not the act of getting baptized an action the WE must take that is a required part of the salvation process?

It is figurative, according to the word itself. It is an act we do after we are saved in obedience to the word.

Salvation isn't as much a process as it is an instantaneous transformation from death unto life when we first believe.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

[Ladonia]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

So tell me about this passage Lively Stone. Does it or does it not require belief AND baptism?  John 16:16 He that believth and IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believth not shall be damned.

It all has to do with belief.

Or this one from 1 Peter 21 which says: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So then, is not the act of getting baptized an action the WE must take that is a required part of the salvation process?

It is figurative, according to the word itself. It is an act we do after we are saved in obedience to the word.

Salvation isn't as much a process as it is an instantaneous transformation from death unto life when we first believe.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

"Even baptism doth also now save us". Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.  A person even has to believe, so to me that (the act of beliveing) is a process in itself. I guess we see things  a bit differently again. God bless.

[Willie T]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

So tell me about this passage Lively Stone. Does it or does it not require belief AND baptism?  John 16:16 He that believth and IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believth not shall be damned.


Or this one from 1 Peter 21 which says: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So then, is not the act of getting baptized an action the WE must take that is a required part of the salvation process?

I think you meant 1 Peter 3:21, the standard Catholic quote.  I'm pretty sure 1 Peter is quite a few chapters shy of 21.

[Lively Stone]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

So tell me about this passage Lively Stone. Does it or does it not require belief AND baptism?  John 16:16 He that believth and IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believth not shall be damned.

It all has to do with belief.

Or this one from 1 Peter 21 which says: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So then, is not the act of getting baptized an action the WE must take that is a required part of the salvation process?

It is figurative, according to the word itself. It is an act we do after we are saved in obedience to the word.

Salvation isn't as much a process as it is an instantaneous transformation from death unto life when we first believe.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

"Even baptism doth also now save us". Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.  A person even has to believe, so to me that (the act of beliveing) is a process in itself. I guess we see things  a bit differently again. God bless.

Yes, it does sound cut and dried to someone who has minimal understanding of the sum of scripture on the matter.

Once again you have hopped on the train that goes nowhere, called: Salvation by Works.

[Ladonia]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

So tell me about this passage Lively Stone. Does it or does it not require belief AND baptism?  John 16:16 He that believth and IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believth not shall be damned.

It all has to do with belief.

Or this one from 1 Peter 21 which says: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So then, is not the act of getting baptized an action the WE must take that is a required part of the salvation process?

It is figurative, according to the word itself. It is an act we do after we are saved in obedience to the word.

Salvation isn't as much a process as it is an instantaneous transformation from death unto life when we first believe.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

"Even baptism doth also now save us". Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.  A person even has to believe, so to me that (the act of beliveing) is a process in itself. I guess we see things  a bit differently again. God bless.

Yes, it does sound cut and dried to someone who has minimal understanding of the sum of scripture on the matter.

Once again you have hopped on the train that goes nowhere, called: Salvation by Works.

Yes, my understanding of the Scripture is not quite up to the more "learned" among us, but I make do. That's why I look to those more competant than myself for a more through understanding.

And no, that is not my belief at all. They do however go hand in hand with salvation.
 
I forget your view on the matter, but it sounds like you are on the once saved, always saved bandwagon.

[Willie T]

"Good works" are as a result of salvation not a means to gain or enhance it.  Christians prove their faith by their works, works that God prepared in advance for us to do so that He will get all the glory.  Eph 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  No one will be able to boast before God that "I did more good works than that old bum over there so I get a bigger and better mansion than he will get right?"

So what must we do, to be doing the works of God?  Jesus was asked that exact question in John 6:28.  His response is found in verse 29 "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."  That is ALL He said.  Man has added all the other stuff that to God is meaningless rubbish.

Ben

Amen!!

So tell me about this passage Lively Stone. Does it or does it not require belief AND baptism?  John 16:16 He that believth and IS baptized shall be saved; but he that believth not shall be damned.

It all has to do with belief.

Or this one from 1 Peter 21 which says: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So then, is not the act of getting baptized an action the WE must take that is a required part of the salvation process?

It is figurative, according to the word itself. It is an act we do after we are saved in obedience to the word.

Salvation isn't as much a process as it is an instantaneous transformation from death unto life when we first believe.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

"Even baptism doth also now save us". Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.  A person even has to believe, so to me that (the act of beliveing) is a process in itself. I guess we see things  a bit differently again. God bless.

Yes, it does sound cut and dried to someone who has minimal understanding of the sum of scripture on the matter.

Once again you have hopped on the train that goes nowhere, called: Salvation by Works.

Yes, my understanding of the Scripture is not quite up to the more "learned" among us, but I make do. That's why I look to those more competant than myself for a more through understanding.

And no, that is not my belief at all. They do however go hand in hand with salvation.
 
I forget your view on the matter, but it sounds like you are on the once saved, always saved bandwagon.

And what a fantastic bandwagon!  Thank you, Jesus, for bringing it to us.

[Ben]

The bandwagon!  OSAS.  John 10:28-29" Jesus said "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."  Never perish?  Nope, never. No one is able to snatch them out?  Nope no one, not even yourself, (unless you are not a no one!) 

John chapter 17 is Christ's prayer for "the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."  In verse 12 Jesus said "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." Not one is lost?  Nope not even one.  Now before you say this paaage refers only to those  with whom Jesus walked and ate while He was on earth read on.  His prayer was also for us in the future! Verse 20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word." That is you and me!

We are secure in Him.  He gave us everything we need. He gave us faith to believe in Him and He perfects that faith "so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:27

Ben

[Ladonia]

The bandwagon!  OSAS.  John 10:28-29" Jesus said "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."  Never perish?  Nope, never. No one is able to snatch them out?  Nope no one, not even yourself, (unless you are not a no one!) 

John chapter 17 is Christ's prayer for "the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."  In verse 12 Jesus said "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." Not one is lost?  Nope not even one.  Now before you say this paaage refers only to those  with whom Jesus walked and ate while He was on earth read on.  His prayer was also for us in the future! Verse 20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word." That is you and me!

We are secure in Him.  He gave us everything we need. He gave us faith to believe in Him and He perfects that faith "so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:27

Ben

So you really believe, that the person who, after he heartfeltly accepts Christ as Savior, then some 2 years down the road returns to living a life of sin and debaucherry, never again repents, is saved? Unbelievable!

[Ben]

If one is REALLY saved, that is God has chosen him and has drawn him into a relationship with Himself then no he cannot become unsaved.  Can a baby who was adopted by a family at birth "unadopt" himself?  No, and neither can a Christian who has been adopted into God's family by God unadopt himself.  He may stray but he will return.

Now someone who is religious, that is one who was not adopted by God, can become "unreligious" because religion does not touch either the sinner's heart or the heart of God.  Christ's biggest detractors were the most religious people on earth.  His favorite names for them was "vipers" and hypocrites.  These phonies were not chosen by God and were not adopted by God into His family.  You see we don't choose God, He chooses us.  Man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins. We are enemies of God and we simply cannot seek for God.   If God does not save the sinner, the sinner is doomed because it is impossible for a man to save himself.

Ben

[Ladonia]

If one is REALLY saved, that is God has chosen him and has drawn him into a relationship with Himself then no he cannot become unsaved.  Can a baby who was adopted by a family at birth "unadopt" himself?  No, and neither can a Christian who has been adopted into God's family by God unadopt himself.  He may stray but he will return.

Now someone who is religious, that is one who was not adopted by God, can become "unreligious" because religion does not touch either the sinner's heart or the heart of God.  Christ's biggest detractors were the most religious people on earth.  His favorite names for them was "vipers" and hypocrites.  These phonies were not chosen by God and were not adopted by God into His family.  You see we don't choose God, He chooses us.  Man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins. We are enemies of God and we simply cannot seek for God.   If God does not save the sinner, the sinner is doomed because it is impossible for a man to save himself.

Ben

Very good try with the "parent adoption" scenario. Yes, it is true, like the adoptive parent, God is always willing to forgive us and welcome us back into his embrace upon SINCERE REPENTENCE of the individual. But like the child can remove himself from his adoptive family, disown them and shun them, the individual can also do the same with God the Father. It's not God or the adoptive parents, the problem lies with the individual and his/her own free will to act whichever way they want to.

Yes, I and many others belive we can lose our salvation even though we were once in the fold. By the things we do in our lives, or fail to do, on that fateful day Jesus could say: "Away from me Satan, I do not know you". Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

[Willie T]

If one is REALLY saved, that is God has chosen him and has drawn him into a relationship with Himself then no he cannot become unsaved.  Can a baby who was adopted by a family at birth "unadopt" himself?  No, and neither can a Christian who has been adopted into God's family by God unadopt himself.  He may stray but he will return.

Now someone who is religious, that is one who was not adopted by God, can become "unreligious" because religion does not touch either the sinner's heart or the heart of God.  Christ's biggest detractors were the most religious people on earth.  His favorite names for them was "vipers" and hypocrites.  These phonies were not chosen by God and were not adopted by God into His family.  You see we don't choose God, He chooses us.  Man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins. We are enemies of God and we simply cannot seek for God.   If God does not save the sinner, the sinner is doomed because it is impossible for a man to save himself.

Ben

Can you list (specifically) at least ten of those FAIL TO DO things you alluded to?  I think it would be important to help others see what is necessary to do.

Very good try with the "parent adoption" scenario. Yes, it is true, like the adoptive parent, God is always willing to forgive us and welcome us back into his embrace upon SINCERE REPENTENCE of the individual. But like the child can remove himself from his adoptive family, disown them and shun them, the individual can also do the same with God the Father. It's not God or the adoptive parents, the problem lies with the individual and his/her own free will to act whichever way they want to.

Yes, I and many others belive we can lose our salvation even though we were once in the fold. By the things we do in our lives, or fail to do, on that fateful day Jesus could say: "Away from me Satan, I do not know you". Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

Can you list (specifically) ten of those FAIL TO DO things to which you alluded?

I think that would be a helpful thing to do for others.

[Ladonia]

If one is REALLY saved, that is God has chosen him and has drawn him into a relationship with Himself then no he cannot become unsaved.  Can a baby who was adopted by a family at birth "unadopt" himself?  No, and neither can a Christian who has been adopted into God's family by God unadopt himself.  He may stray but he will return.

Now someone who is religious, that is one who was not adopted by God, can become "unreligious" because religion does not touch either the sinner's heart or the heart of God.  Christ's biggest detractors were the most religious people on earth.  His favorite names for them was "vipers" and hypocrites.  These phonies were not chosen by God and were not adopted by God into His family.  You see we don't choose God, He chooses us.  Man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins. We are enemies of God and we simply cannot seek for God.   If God does not save the sinner, the sinner is doomed because it is impossible for a man to save himself.

Ben

Can you list (specifically) at least ten of those FAIL TO DO things you alluded to?  I think it would be important to help others see what is necessary to do.

Very good try with the "parent adoption" scenario. Yes, it is true, like the adoptive parent, God is always willing to forgive us and welcome us back into his embrace upon SINCERE REPENTENCE of the individual. But like the child can remove himself from his adoptive family, disown them and shun them, the individual can also do the same with God the Father. It's not God or the adoptive parents, the problem lies with the individual and his/her own free will to act whichever way they want to.

Yes, I and many others belive we can lose our salvation even though we were once in the fold. By the things we do in our lives, or fail to do, on that fateful day Jesus could say: "Away from me Satan, I do not know you". Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

Are you agreeing with me?

You know the story where Christ tells about the "least of them" and when we DID NOT clothe them or we DID NOT feed them, we were actually failinf to do something. And then what does He say about this lack of action on our part, the FAILURE TO DO something?

[Willie T]

If one is REALLY saved, that is God has chosen him and has drawn him into a relationship with Himself then no he cannot become unsaved.  Can a baby who was adopted by a family at birth "unadopt" himself?  No, and neither can a Christian who has been adopted into God's family by God unadopt himself.  He may stray but he will return.

Now someone who is religious, that is one who was not adopted by God, can become "unreligious" because religion does not touch either the sinner's heart or the heart of God.  Christ's biggest detractors were the most religious people on earth.  His favorite names for them was "vipers" and hypocrites.  These phonies were not chosen by God and were not adopted by God into His family.  You see we don't choose God, He chooses us.  Man in his natural state is dead in trespasses and sins. We are enemies of God and we simply cannot seek for God.   If God does not save the sinner, the sinner is doomed because it is impossible for a man to save himself.

Ben

Can you list (specifically) at least ten of those FAIL TO DO things you alluded to?  I think it would be important to help others see what is necessary to do.

Very good try with the "parent adoption" scenario. Yes, it is true, like the adoptive parent, God is always willing to forgive us and welcome us back into his embrace upon SINCERE REPENTENCE of the individual. But like the child can remove himself from his adoptive family, disown them and shun them, the individual can also do the same with God the Father. It's not God or the adoptive parents, the problem lies with the individual and his/her own free will to act whichever way they want to.

Yes, I and many others belive we can lose our salvation even though we were once in the fold. By the things we do in our lives, or fail to do, on that fateful day Jesus could say: "Away from me Satan, I do not know you". Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

Are you agreeing with me?

You know the story where Christ tells about the "least of them" and when we DID NOT clothe them or we DID NOT feed them, we were actually failinf to do something. And then what does He say about this lack of action on our part, the FAILURE TO DO something?

Yes, on rare occasion, we DO see eye to eye.

So for #1, we have looking after the poor.  (I happen to think Catholic Charities is one of the best organizations around.)

#2?

[LightHammer]

This thread is locked.

I have seen nothing in here that warrants the continuity of this thread. It lacks a topic to discuss and seems to be nothing more than a back and forth between this and that.

Any who wish the thread to be reopened can message me privately about it or any other moderator.

Peace