Gay Person Reconsidering (?) Gay Identity

[chosenone]

Gracey thats so true. I have seen people justify the most awful things even to divorcing their spouse because God is apparently 'leading them to be with someone else' Incredible I know, but thats the depth of deception  and sin that we can get into.

Yes, I have a family member who says 'God told her' to marry her non-believing husband.  She barely knew him and is now paying the price for that - he has beaten her up and he cheats on her.  She is now saying that 'God' is telling her to stay.

Really?   

The one thing I do know for sure, the heart is deceitful above all things!   

.....................
  Yep you are right. After all if someone says 'well God told me to do it', what can we say???.

I know a lady who was sure that God was leading her to divorce her husband(who had done nothing worng) and be with this other man. She was a Christian and the other man was a three times divorced non Christian Now how did she manage to convince herself that this was God and not satan???Amazing isnt it.  Needless to say it didnt last, and they broke up 2 months after the divorce was completed.


I think that people will say He said what they want Him to say, but what we do know is that if it is against what the Bible says, we know it isnt God saying it. So if God says to not be unequally yoked he clearly didnt tell her to marry him. He also wouldnt be telling her to stay if he is cheating and beating her up, but maybe she is afraid to be alone, so she stays and justifies it.   Sad.

[Alan]

I blame society for the mass influx of gay and lesbianism. I work for the school board and the walls are littered with anti-homophobia campaigns and identity theft posters encouraging whatever your choice of sexuality may be. This is appalling to be pushed on teenagers, but the board believes this is healthy for today's youth.

Hearing testimony from many gay converts, one of their biggest reasons for turning gay was the lack of acceptance they felt from their peers, they were inferior, they were unattractive, they were not like the other kids, etc, etc.

Tough choices for kids, but opening doors such as "encouraging their sexuality choice" is simply giving them the easy way out of coping with the strains of society.

I'm sure we could all give testimony as to the difficulties in growing to adulthood, it wasn't easy but OTOH we weren't encouraged to give up and face the fact that we can't do it, that's the voice of the enemy.

[Gracey]

Hearing testimony from many gay converts, one of their biggest reasons for turning gay was the lack of acceptance they felt from their peers, they were inferior, they were unattractive, they were not like the other kids, etc, etc.

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that....I don't think anyone wakes up one day and says, 'Right, I'm going to be gay'.   Despite huge amounts of liberalism, being gay is still very much a taboo, it's not something that a person would really want to be.

Having said that, the gay community IS very accepting.  It effectively becomes a substitute family for the person who has lost their way and it welcomes them in, wholeheartedly, without any questions asked.   

This is why I get so frustrated at churches which rant againt gay people from the pulpit.  A gay person would never step foot inside many of our churches, for fear they'd get screamed at.   That's not to say that we shouldn't speak about sin or God's best for our lives....but when it turns into a rant, that isn't love, nor the way to reach out to a broken world.  :( 

[chosenone]

Hearing testimony from many gay converts, one of their biggest reasons for turning gay was the lack of acceptance they felt from their peers, they were inferior, they were unattractive, they were not like the other kids, etc, etc.

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that....I don't think anyone wakes up one day and says, 'Right, I'm going to be gay'.   Despite huge amounts of liberalism, being gay is still very much a taboo, it's not something that a person would really want to be.

Having said that, the gay community IS very accepting.  It effectively becomes a substitute family for the person who has lost their way and it welcomes them in, wholeheartedly, without any questions asked.   

This is why I get so frustrated at churches which rant againt gay people from the pulpit.  A gay person would never step foot inside many of our churches, for fear they'd get screamed at.   That's not to say that we shouldn't speak about sin or God's best for our lives....but when it turns into a rant, that isn't love, nor the way to reach out to a broken world.  :( 

I agree. My pastor says that he would welcome any gay person in our church who is seeking God. After all once they come to God, The Holy Spirit can begin His work in them. He isnt saying that he condones what they do, but that everyone needs Jesus and His healing power. Its the old saying of loving the sinner but hating the sin. 

[Gracey]

I agree. My pastor says that he would welcome any gay person in our church who is seeking God. After all once they come to God, The Holy Spirit can begin His work in them. He isnt saying that he condones what they do, but that everyone needs Jesus and His healing power. Its the old saying of loving the sinner but hating the sin.

Exactly!  A friend's church did that - they were a city-based church and a gay couple wandered in one Sunday.  They received an amazingly warm welcome and were told this could be their home if they wanted it to be.   Once they'd shown they were planning on coming back, the pastor had a coffee with them and explained what the church taught on same sex relationships, but made it clear they would always be welcome.   

Interestingly, as time went on, one of the guys got chatting to me and he said that they were now living celibate, as they didn't know why, but it just 'felt wrong' to be that way with each other.    It is such a lovely journey to watch - no one ranted or screamed verses from Leviticus at them.  Just loved them like they love everyone else....and allowed the Holy Spirit to do what only He can do. 

[Alan]

Yep, we also see gays at our Church and make effort to let them know that they are very welcome and that God loves us all.

Of course there is no screening process when entering the Church, these things are usually revealed from their own free will or from a friend that may have led them to the Church.

[chosenone]

I agree. My pastor says that he would welcome any gay person in our church who is seeking God. After all once they come to God, The Holy Spirit can begin His work in them. He isnt saying that he condones what they do, but that everyone needs Jesus and His healing power. Its the old saying of loving the sinner but hating the sin.

Exactly!  A friend's church did that - they were a city-based church and a gay couple wandered in one Sunday.  They received an amazingly warm welcome and were told this could be their home if they wanted it to be.   Once they'd shown they were planning on coming back, the pastor had a coffee with them and explained what the church taught on same sex relationships, but made it clear they would always be welcome.   

Interestingly, as time went on, one of the guys got chatting to me and he said that they were now living celibate, as they didn't know why, but it just 'felt wrong' to be that way with each other.    It is such a lovely journey to watch - no one ranted or screamed verses from Leviticus at them.  Just loved them like they love everyone else....and allowed the Holy Spirit to do what only He can do. 

YAY I love that. He is clearly a man of God. Can you imagine if they had been preached at with hell fire and damnation when they started going to that church? They would never have returned. WE dont have to do the Holy Spirits job, He is quite capable of that.
I have posted this story here before but its bears repeating. A true story of a gay couple who became Christians. They were on fire for God, and a few months after coverting, they were praying together once evening when they were both zapped by the power of the Holy Spirit. The next morning they both KNEW that they needed to seperate, which they did. God is in control.

[Cally]

Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?

I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

What is this dose of common sense doing here?!

I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!

And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.

But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.

There are still many good men around, and you dont have to be all 'rough and tough' to be a strong man. Strength is what is inside, not what always shows on the outside.   

I don't get where the "there are still many good men around" comment came from. I didn't say anything to suggest that there was a shortage of good men.

I believe that traditional culture suffered from some really lousy dichotomies with masculinity/femininity which has caused us a ton of problems.

For example, I'm a professional violinist--I'm accustomed to being highly praised for it ("so beautiful this made me cry")--and I can bench press more than my body weight . . . still working on that though, school for programming takes a rearranging of schedule. King David was both rough and tough as a fierce warrior, and was also a great musician who could remove an evil spirit with his music, whereas classic culture has GARBAGE like Clint Eastwood "show no weakness" business. Consequently I think our culture (at least the USA) has had lousy paradigms of male/female to begin with--there are some real men who can't see themselves as allegedly "masculine" figures because of the absurdity of masculine paradigms, and simultaneously because of the way masculinity has been demonized anyway (in men, really, while masculinity in women is regarded like great women's lib fodder--especially as such women are "defeating" masculine men in some way or another).

Consequently, the alternative is abandoning masculinity and that's what happens in many cases.

That's one of many reasons why masculinity and femininity both need to be promoted.

[Makewecasa]

Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?

I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

What is this dose of common sense doing here?!

I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!

And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.

But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.

There are still many good men around, and you dont have to be all 'rough and tough' to be a strong man. Strength is what is inside, not what always shows on the outside.   

I don't get where the "there are still many good men around" comment came from. I didn't say anything to suggest that there was a shortage of good men.

I believe that traditional culture suffered from some really lousy dichotomies with masculinity/femininity which has caused us a ton of problems.

For example, I'm a professional violinist--I'm accustomed to being highly praised for it ("so beautiful this made me cry")--and I can bench press more than my body weight . . . still working on that though, school for programming takes a rearranging of schedule. King David was both rough and tough as a fierce warrior, and was also a great musician who could remove an evil spirit with his music, whereas classic culture has GARBAGE like Clint Eastwood "show no weakness" business. Consequently I think our culture (at least the USA) has had lousy paradigms of male/female to begin with--there are some real men who can't see themselves as allegedly "masculine" figures because of the absurdity of masculine paradigms, and simultaneously because of the way masculinity has been demonized anyway (in men, really, while masculinity in women is regarded like great women's lib fodder--especially as such women are "defeating" masculine men in some way or another).

Consequently, the alternative is abandoning masculinity and that's what happens in many cases.

That's one of many reasons why masculinity and femininity both need to be promoted.

I agree totally.  I read an interesting article the other day about how ideas of masculinity and femininity had in some cases  completely reversed through the years.  I think most of it is just a cultural thing, at least as far as what is considered masculine and feminine.  I really hate to see men demonized in ads and in tv/movies.  If men were as disdainful of women in the media as women are of men, women's groups would have a hissy fit and rightfully so.

[Cally]

Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.


Set homosexuality in that context.  When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow.   A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves.  A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.

So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic.  That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule.  After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem. 

While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same.  This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.

Changing gears for a moment...

Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

So are you suggesting that men become gay because our culture supposedly worships women?
I doubt myself that there are any more gay men than there were in previous generations when it was men who were worshipped. It was just more hidden then. It has always been with us. Its just more accepted and open now.

Men were treated like incorruptible angels whose every misdeed could be blamed on some woman? Actually, as I understand "previous generations" men were still to consider themselves obligated to women in ways that, even today, despite artificial actions of culture causing them to be (at least) nearly as powerful in the workforce, men are STILL often treated like they're supposed to be providers and protectors of infinitely more precious women.

Sorry, but I think a lot of lady perks were taken for granted in previous generations.

[Makewecasa]

Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.


Set homosexuality in that context.  When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow.   A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves.  A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.

So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic.  That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule.  After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem. 

While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same.  This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.

Changing gears for a moment...

Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

So are you suggesting that men become gay because our culture supposedly worships women?
I doubt myself that there are any more gay men than there were in previous generations when it was men who were worshipped. It was just more hidden then. It has always been with us. Its just more accepted and open now.

Men were treated like incorruptible angels whose every misdeed could be blamed on some woman? Actually, as I understand "previous generations" men were still to consider themselves obligated to women in ways that, even today, despite artificial actions of culture causing them to be (at least) nearly as powerful in the workforce, men are STILL often treated like they're supposed to be providers and protectors of infinitely more precious women.

Sorry, but I think a lot of lady perks were taken for granted in previous generations.

At least nearly as powerful in the workforce?  Ok, sure.  And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?

[Cally]

At least nearly as powerful in the workforce?  Ok, sure.  And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?

Maybe my language was confusing. Ever heard phrases like "women and children first"? There's a term thrown around in the men's rights movement: "Male disposability," like a man's value is measured only on what he provides.

And what I'm saying is, I'm still hearing a lot of people TODAY treating a man like he has to "be a man" and take the manly role as provider and protector despite the fact that TODAY women have (again, at least) nearly as much power to provide for themselves as men do: equality with all the old-school lady perks. It's not gonna fly for much longer.

[Makewecasa]

Well I'm no doubt going to catch flak for this but I think the problem is more with the women taking over the male role than it is that the male role is wrong.  I'm not talking about equality in the workplace or about rights of any kind.  But I do believe that God made us different and that He intended men to take a protective role physically and women to take more of an emotional protector role.  That's not unequal, it's just different.  I think God made us two halves of a whole, not two clones of each other.    Please don't shoot me.  I said it's my opinion.  (Isn't there an icon for ducking?  I thought I had seen one but couldn't find it.)

[Cally]

Well I'm no doubt going to catch flak for this but I think the problem is more with the women taking over the male role than it is that the male role is wrong.  I'm not talking about equality in the workplace or about rights of any kind.  But I do believe that God made us different and that He intended men to take a protective role physically and women to take more of an emotional protector role.  That's not unequal, it's just different.  I think God made us two halves of a whole, not two clones of each other.    Please don't shoot me.  I said it's my opinion.  (Isn't there an icon for ducking?  I thought I had seen one but couldn't find it.)

A 100% anti-feminist thinks that there's such a thing as a man's duty and a woman's duty (duties to each other). Preaching that men have a duty that INCLUDES towing the line to let women off the hook for any duties in return is beyond unacceptable--those are called "feminists."

[Makewecasa]

I don't know very many women who believe men have 'duties' and they should have none.  I'm sorry if that's been your experience but lumping us all into the same category won't help.  I'm not arguing this in this post anymore though.  I think we have gotten far afield of the topic.

[chosenone]

I don't know very many women who believe men have 'duties' and they should have none.  I'm sorry if that's been your experience but lumping us all into the same category won't help.  I'm not arguing this in this post anymore though.  I think we have gotten far afield of the topic.

I agree, all women are different just as all men are. We tend to think that all women or all men are like the few that we may have had bad experiences with.  Its a good job that I didnt think that way, as after my experinces with the previous men in my life, I would have been a man hating feminist by now and would never have got married again. As it is I am very happily married to a great guy and know many other good men including my lovely adult son and my brother. 

[Cally]

I don't know very many women who believe men have 'duties' and they should have none.  I'm sorry if that's been your experience but lumping us all into the same category won't help.  I'm not arguing this in this post anymore though.  I think we have gotten far afield of the topic.

There is no way you could claim that I did that.

[chosenone]

At least nearly as powerful in the workforce?  Ok, sure.  And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?

Maybe my language was confusing. Ever heard phrases like "women and children first"? There's a term thrown around in the men's rights movement: "Male disposability," like a man's value is measured only on what he provides.

And what I'm saying is, I'm still hearing a lot of people TODAY treating a man like he has to "be a man" and take the manly role as provider and protector despite the fact that TODAY women have (again, at least) nearly as much power to provide for themselves as men do: equality with all the old-school lady perks. It's not gonna fly for much longer.

Nearly all the women that I know work (or have worked and are now retired). More and more women work now so not sure where you are coming from with this. My husband likes to be the provider, and feels that he should be. Its not done as a 'duty' or a 'burden' but as his role as the husband.
The Bible does seem to say that the mans role is as provider and protector, and the womans role is the nurturer, and the one who runs the home and looks after the children.   

[Cally]

At least nearly as powerful in the workforce?  Ok, sure.  And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?

Maybe my language was confusing. Ever heard phrases like "women and children first"? There's a term thrown around in the men's rights movement: "Male disposability," like a man's value is measured only on what he provides.

And what I'm saying is, I'm still hearing a lot of people TODAY treating a man like he has to "be a man" and take the manly role as provider and protector despite the fact that TODAY women have (again, at least) nearly as much power to provide for themselves as men do: equality with all the old-school lady perks. It's not gonna fly for much longer.

Nearly all the women that I know work (or have worked and are now retired). More and more women work now so not sure where you are coming from with this. My husband likes to be the provider, and feels that he should be. Its not done as a 'duty' or a 'burden' but as his role as the husband.
The Bible does seem to say that the mans role is as provider and protector, and the womans role is the nurturer, and the one who runs the home and looks after the children.   

Good, and that's more of the traditional attitude toward men and women and a great deal less of so-called pushes for "equality." If you agree with that, then you made my original point: men traditionally provide for and protect women even in those dreaded "back thens" that the modern world says about how the world was just all about worshiping men while women get altogether shafted.

What I'm saying is, I believe that any woman who pushes for "equality" (which I've heard two on this thread flip-flop on this) had sure better be ready to kiss goodbye the benefits of men being a provider and protector. Many men's rights activists feel like the old days were a lousy deal for men, not women, because of that duty--and that's an ugly side effect of men getting taken for granted I'm afraid. I advocate different roles, but not one without the other.

[Gracey]

Back to the OP, I would say that sometimes, sadly, churches or church leaders use Biblical language to hidge their rampant homophobia.

Homophobia is, of course, not preaching what the Bible says (as some would like to define it) but actual hatred toward gay people.  I have heard some shocking things from some pulpits.  I once heard a preacher talk about gay marriage and he said something along the lines of, 'Do you KNOW what those people do to each other in their bedrooms?  They're DISGUSTING...'

That wasn't teaching about God's love for a broken creation and how He longs to be in a relationship with anyone, that was just cloaking his distaste for gay people into so called Biblical language.  To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church.   In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.

I am not suggesting that we don't call sin, 'sin' or avoid the issue.  But I think we need to approach it from the point of view that all people are sinners, we're all broken...and ultimately, God wants His absolute best for us all. 

[Red Baker]

"Gay person"~There is nothing "Gay" about man with man and woman with woman working that which is unseemly!  Romans 1:24-29 makes it very plain that such people have been giving a reprobate mind~God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient, and those are not my words, but God's own words. Again, read Romans 1:24-29, and if one can read those verses and still believe that Sodomy is acceptable with God, then that man is a man giving over to the same reprobate mind.

Gay??? Are you kidding me!  What is gay about their unnatural lifestyle?  It is an abomination in God's holy sight, and should also be so in our eyes.  Is there forgiveness for such wickedness?  Of course, and I have first hand witness such a person repenting of such wickedness, even though it is rare.  Only by the mercy of God Almighty can such people change from such unnatural burning in their hearts~but with God, all things are possible.  But please, do not call their unnatural lusting~GAY, for it is anything but that.  Call it what it is: abomination that God will make desolate in His Day; that great day of his wrath. 

[Alan]

Gay is a term defining same sex attraction (of men) that has been accepted by society. We're probably all to the knowledge that the english reference for "gay" is one of happy, merry, bright, cheerful, etc. I don't feel rebuking societies terminology of a human characteristic is helpful in any way, nor do I feel using the term "gay" as breaking any rules of Christianity, we can respectfully address them and continue to remind them that God loves them but he detests the sin.

[Gracey]

"Gay person"~There is nothing "Gay" about man with man and woman with woman working that which is unseemly!  Romans 1:24-29 makes it very plain that such people have been giving a reprobate mind~God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient, and those are not my words, but God's own words. Again, read Romans 1:24-29, and if one can read those verses and still believe that Sodomy is acceptable with God, then that man is a man giving over to the same reprobate mind.

Before you quote Romans, I think you need to look a little further back in that chapter;  "From verse 22: Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal human beings and birds and animals and reptiles."

God turned them over to their desires AFTER they turned their backs on Him.  So, to simply categorise ALL people of same sex orientation as an 'abomination' is unBiblical.    The act IS unBiblical, but there are THOUSANDS of men and women (if not millions) across the world, who earnestly desire a closer walk with Jesus, and who struggle with SSA. 

How do I know?  Because I spent a good few years with a man just like this.   He suffered extreme abuse as a child and through no fault of his own, developed SSA in his puberty years.   He hid it simply because there was no one he could talk to. 

His church offered no solutions, just merely churned out extreme judgement on the 'sodomites'.  How was he supposed to go to his pastor to ask for help, if he thought he'd just be screamed at?   

Instead, he kept it as a quiet little secret, where it festered and eventually, found a life when someone more established in that world than him, made a play for him.  Sure, he had a choice not to act, but he was deeply conflicted...he couldn't go to his church leaders and yet he couldn't deny this was 'there'.   

He went out for non-specific prayer and he fasted and he prayed and he asked for forgiveness, but he could never quite shake it off.   What he actually needed was counselling and therapy and mature Christian accountability in his life.   None of which he could access because he believed he would simply be condemned.    And if you know anything about sexual addiction - the triggers often are, low feelings and depression and anxiety.   The sexual release becomes a 'temporary fix' for an aching problem.

And so, you, or anyone else, thundering out words like 'reprobate' and 'sodomy' from here or any kind of pulpit, serves no purpose, other than to push this even further into the darkness.

Undoubtedly, there are many who HAVE turned away from God and so therefore God has given them over to their desires.  But equally, there are many more who are confused and simply have nowhere to turn, because they believe they are unforgiveable.

It is also not just a case of 'getting forgiveness' and that's, they're now straight.   Many believe that our orientation is formed through a variety of different factors, sometimes it's the lack of something, sometimes it's too much of something (inappropriate) but for whatever reason, many people who struggle this way can't just simply, 'Ok, I'm now attracted to the opposite sex'.   For many, it's a lifelong choice of celibacy.

The point is, if the church simply screams at sinners, how can you ever epxect them to step forward from the shadows, to ask for help?

[Lively Stone]

Back to the OP, I would say that sometimes, sadly, churches or church leaders use Biblical language to hidge their rampant homophobia.

Homophobia is, of course, not preaching what the Bible says (as some would like to define it) but actual hatred toward gay people.  I have heard some shocking things from some pulpits.  I once heard a preacher talk about gay marriage and he said something along the lines of, 'Do you KNOW what those people do to each other in their bedrooms?  They're DISGUSTING...'

Nothing wrong with that. It is disgusting.

That wasn't teaching about God's love for a broken creation and how He longs to be in a relationship with anyone, that was just cloaking his distaste for gay people into so called Biblical language.

He was bringing people into reality, that the homosexual act is a sin, and not to be mitigated by the cover story that these people love each other.

To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church.

They ARE outside of the Church.

In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.

In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.

I am not suggesting that we don't call sin, 'sin' or avoid the issue.  But I think we need to approach it from the point of view that all people are sinners, we're all broken...and ultimately, God wants His absolute best for us all.

Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualifed by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.

[Gracey]

In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.

True!  But then pastors need to preach both messages.  They need to talk about sin, but they need to make it clear that if anyone is struggling with anything, that the church is very much a 'safe space' to get help.   I think too often, it's too much judgement, and very little grace.   OR, it's all fluffy and light and love, and no genuine instruction on what the Bible teaches.  Both are wrong.

Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualifed by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.  I think we will always remain 'broken' to a certain extent, just because we are human.   I am also of the view that we are called to speak into people's lives when they give us permission to do so.  So, for example, I'd not be the sort of person who'd be protesting at 'Gay pride' or anything like that.   I'm of the view that the Bible is the Word of God, but its rules are for best living for believers.  If you speak its words to those who don't subscribe to it, it makes no sense to them....and only sounds like judgement.    My view is that our job is to win people to Christ, first and foremost...and I have seen it time and time again, once the love of Jesus and the conviction of the Holy Spirit consumes their hearts, change just happens.  It cannot, not happen.   

It's a truly beautiful thing to see.   

[Red Baker]

Greetings Gracey,

I will take time this afternoon to answer some of your concerns.  RB

[Gracey]

Greetings Gracey,

I will take time this afternoon to answer some of your concerns.  RB

Thank you Red.   I apologise if my response sounded angry - I am very passionate about this subject.   I couldn't even begin to describe to you, the heartache and pain, my (now) ex's SSA, has caused to me and my family.

God HAS been faithful though, giving peace in the times which were incredibly low.  Even now, He is just there.
That is all I need.   

[DaveW]

To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church.

They ARE outside of the Church.

In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.

In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.

So lively, you agree with a former pastor of mine who said that all homosexuals should be lined up and shot (summarily executed) and that judgement begins at the House of God?

[Lively Stone]

To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church.

They ARE outside of the Church.

In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.

In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.

So lively, you agree with a former pastor of mine who said that all homosexuals should be lined up and shot (summarily executed) and that judgement begins at the House of God?

That is a sick question. I will let you ponder its intent.

[DaveW]

Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualified by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.

Perhaps that is true of an adult trained and discipled believer but most Christians have never been properly discipled and consequently are still babes in their walk.  They still have lots of sin issues. [sin being ANYTHING that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory]  After being a believer for 50 years there are still sins I struggle with. Not as many as 30 years ago nor even 10 years ago but some still are being worked on. I still have wounds of extreme physical abuse as a child. While SSA was never an issue for me, the constant attitude from my dad told me I was a mistake that should not exist and that he (as God's representative to the family) hates me. The main reason I never committed suicide is that I realized it would call too much attention to ME (and that was to be avoided at all costs).

So either you are saying that I am NOT a christian (messianic) because of these things or your statement needs some work.

[Lively Stone]

Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualified by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.

Perhaps that is true of an adult trained and discipled believer but most Christians have never been properly discipled and consequently are still babes in their walk.  They still have lots of sin issues. [sin being ANYTHING that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory]  After being a believer for 50 years there are still sins I struggle with. Not as many as 30 years ago nor even 10 years ago but some still are being worked on. I still have wounds of extreme physical abuse as a child. While SSA was never an issue for me, the constant attitude from my dad told me I was a mistake that should not exist and that he (as God's representative to the family) hates me. The main reason I never committed suicide is that I realized it would call too much attention to ME (and that was to be avoided at all costs).

I can see where you can misunderstand what I have said. it was too pat. We still deal with brokenness, I assure you, and that is true of us all, as we are in constant struggle with our flesh. I also have memories that affect my present, and a measure of brokenness that I am working through with the Lord. However, spiritually speaking we have been blessed with all that God has to offer in our spirits We spend our lives as believers continually appropriating what God has for us into our lives---that is all part of our consecration and sanctification and it continues until we walk straight into His literal presence.

So either you are saying that I am NOT a christian (messianic) because of these things or your statement needs some work.

Where on earth would you get that idea?

[robert9712000]

Well first off you have to decide what you value more.Do you value your sexual desires or do you value God's will.The problem is what God desires and what you want are at odds ,but people are misguiding into thinking they know whats best for them selves.Don't let Satan try to fool yourself into making an excuse that homosexuality is anything but sin.

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Now having the thoughts in your head is not Sin,but what you do with them could be.Once you acknowledge that the act of homosexuality is a sin and against God's will the next thing to do is to pray,i recommend fasting as well.I believe once youv'e allowed satan enough hold on you it requires much prayer and fasting

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

The way Satan works is he always starts off as a innocent thought that seeks to be pondered on.The problem is when you dwell on Satans thoughts he immediately starts to bring you into bondage.The longer you dwell on it the stronger hold it has on you till eventually that thought requires action.Once action comes, sin is committed.If pursued to its full extent if you allow it, temptation will take you to its predictable limit which is death.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

There is no excuse you can make to justify it,but don't feel hopeless for having the desire but overcome it by pursuing a more gratifying desire which is Gods will(for in his will you will find peace of mind)

The things ive done to help me overcome sin is to focus on 3 things.

1st that your true desire is the same as Gods,because if you desire the lust more than Gods will ,it will destroy you.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

2ndis prayer and fasting with lots of hope till God removes that desire you've allowed to take refuge in your mind.Hope is very important alongside patience,because it may take years upon years before it is removed.without patience and hope you will eventually give in to temptation because it appears easier.Just remember we are called to suffer as followers of Christ when we put off the old man and put on the new.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

We are called to be soldiers for Christ.To follow Christ is to deny the former lusts for this world,which isn't easy.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

3rdis to not give Satans temptation the audience of your minds focus.When temptation comes cast it down immediately.The longer you give it your attention the more of a foothold it will get into establishing its dominion over you and draw you into slavery to it.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 ;Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

I recommend finding a verse thats important to you,that when satans temptation comes you can immediately goto Gods word to repel it.

always remember regardless off the pressure that in the end Gods word is always the final truth.

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

[DaveW]

So either you are saying that I am NOT a christian (messianic) because of these things or your statement needs some work.

Where on earth would you get that idea?

From this:

Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken

To me that reads that if you still struggle with sin or brokenness you are not a Christian. Period.

But you answered me that the statement was too pat.

[DaveW]

Robert - you made the following statement:

Now having the thoughts in your head is not Sin

Since sin is anything that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory, how can you say that?  Is there anything about a same sex attraction (whether acted on or not) that hits the center of the target of God's will or brings Him glory?

[robert9712000]

Robert - you made the following statement:

Now having the thoughts in your head is not Sin

Since sin is anything that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory, how can you say that?  Is there anything about a same sex attraction (whether acted on or not) that hits the center of the target of God's will or brings Him glory?

So your saying you sin every time satan tempts you ,just by the thought?

If that was true than Christ sinned for he was tempted by Satan.

Temptation (which can be thoughts of lust,rage ect) are not Sin its how you respond to it that can be sin.You can respond by satisfying your carnal lusts in the flesh or you can follow Gods word through the spirit.

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

Again,why would the Bible ask are you angry? and then say sin not, for by your reasoning the mere thought of anger is a Sin.The next verse is important aswell, for it advises the danger of dwelling on those thoughts(aka giving it a place)Thats why i recommended to him to cast the thought down immediately.

Even the lords prayer makes a distinction between the 2

Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

This is a great verse describing the process of sin

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.