How Can A Person Reject Infallible Dogma/Theology and Claim to Believe in Jesus?

[Logical Conclusions]

Hope that helps!

It does, seem like reasonable answers to me.  So many think that we are so far apart;  Catholics and the many denominational and non-denominational, but that which unites us is our belief in our saviour.  I tend to believe the unity to which we are directed is not under the canopy of my "church", your church, or any other; there is but one Church to which we all belong.  It is a church of much diversity, but diversity is not a bad thing and can lead to successes where homogenity would fail.

Our church has such a wonderful fellowship with the Catholic church next door.  I wish all could embrace such a relationship.  We support them, they support us; we collaborate all in the service of the Lord.

This is what I believe Jesus meant for us to be one. God is a big God and there is many variety of peoples, we can't all sing to the same tune and dance to the same dance.

We are already one.

Unam Sanctam Cathólicam
et Apostólicam Ecclésiam.

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. 

[Catholica]

Catholica

We don't communicate with dead people.

From that logic nobody is dead,as all return to heaven,so my question is who are the dead that we are not to communicate with?

No one "returns" to heaven but Jesus. Not everyone goes to heaven either. But those two things are off topic to discuss.

Before Jesus opened the gates of heaven, the saved awaited Him in a place known as Abraham's bosom. Today, if anyone calls up the dead to communicate with them, they are talking to a demon. If anyone passively is the subject of a message from a spiritual being, it is either an angel, a demon, the Lord, or a saint.

What we are forbidden from doing is trying to gather for ourselves information from the spiritual realm. That is the sin. It is not a sin to be the passive recipient of a vision or apparition. It is not a sin to ask someone to pray to God for us.

[chosenone]

Catholica

We don't communicate with dead people.

From that logic nobody is dead,as all return to heaven,so my question is who are the dead that we are not to communicate with?

No one "returns" to heaven but Jesus. Not everyone goes to heaven either. But those two things are off topic to discuss.

Before Jesus opened the gates of heaven, the saved awaited Him in a place known as Abraham's bosom. Today, if anyone calls up the dead to communicate with them, they are talking to a demon. If anyone passively is the subject of a message from a spiritual being, it is either an angel, a demon, the Lord, or a saint.

What we are forbidden from doing is trying to gather for ourselves information from the spiritual realm. That is the sin. It is not a sin to be the passive recipient of a vision or apparition. It is not a sin to ask someone to pray to God for us.

If they are alive that is, and also dead saints(and we are all called saints in the Bible remember) dont send messages to us.

[Jimmy]

That is why they are called Protestants.  They reject the reject the Catholic infallible word of God for there man-made inventions and wicked devices.

Everyone has their man-made traditions.

At least the ones in Judaism and Messianic Judaism were around when Our Lord was here and could comment on them.  Those HE did not specifically decry we kept.

The orthodox, rcc and protestant faith streams came about AFTER THE FACT so there is no biblical record of Our Lord commenting on them.

Messianic Judaism was not formed until the 19th century.

As is perfectly obvious in all cases, including religious thought, a long history is no indication of truth or correctness.

[Jimmy]

1. People tend to equate infallibility to impeccability. To be infallible is the ability to make an inerrant statement with regard to a specific topic within a specific context.

Upon what basis is infallibility determined?

[Jimmy]

Of course we pray to Mary, aka praying for Mary to intercede for us.

And where did you get the idea that She can intercede for you?

[neophyte]

Any church that can not trace itself directly back to Jesus and His apostles is not from Jesus. When Jesus was talking those words of Matt.16: 15-19 only Peter was present.Peter was the one that also received the "Keys". Peter received both, [ a name change always meant an important position ] he received the commission from Jesus to preside over His earthly Church and he was given the keys to bind and loose.

[Catholica]

Catholica

We don't communicate with dead people.

From that logic nobody is dead,as all return to heaven,so my question is who are the dead that we are not to communicate with?

No one "returns" to heaven but Jesus. Not everyone goes to heaven either. But those two things are off topic to discuss.

Before Jesus opened the gates of heaven, the saved awaited Him in a place known as Abraham's bosom. Today, if anyone calls up the dead to communicate with them, they are talking to a demon. If anyone passively is the subject of a message from a spiritual being, it is either an angel, a demon, the Lord, or a saint.

What we are forbidden from doing is trying to gather for ourselves information from the spiritual realm. That is the sin. It is not a sin to be the passive recipient of a vision or apparition. It is not a sin to ask someone to pray to God for us.

If they are alive that is,

and they are.

and also dead saints(and we are all called saints in the Bible remember) dont send messages to us.

This is true, but only because there are no dead saints.  Some saints who are alive and have entered into eternal life have given messages to us.

[new creature]

When Jesus was talking those words of Matt.16: 15-19 only Peter was present.

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(KJV)

[chosenone]

Catholica

We don't communicate with dead people.

From that logic nobody is dead,as all return to heaven,so my question is who are the dead that we are not to communicate with?

No one "returns" to heaven but Jesus. Not everyone goes to heaven either. But those two things are off topic to discuss.

Before Jesus opened the gates of heaven, the saved awaited Him in a place known as Abraham's bosom. Today, if anyone calls up the dead to communicate with them, they are talking to a demon. If anyone passively is the subject of a message from a spiritual being, it is either an angel, a demon, the Lord, or a saint.

What we are forbidden from doing is trying to gather for ourselves information from the spiritual realm. That is the sin. It is not a sin to be the passive recipient of a vision or apparition. It is not a sin to ask someone to pray to God for us.

If they are alive that is,

and they are.

and also dead saints(and we are all called saints in the Bible remember) dont send messages to us.

This is true, but only because there are no dead saints.  Some saints who are alive and have entered into eternal life have given messages to us.

It wasnt them who sent messages.
We are ALL saints according to the Bible, and making people into a 'saint' isnt Biblical, nor is it Biblical to receive anything from someone who has died. God speaks to us through The Gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy, and through the Bible, and He does not use dead human beings.

[HRoberson]

Any church that can not trace itself directly back to Jesus and His apostles is not from Jesus.

interesting assertion....but wrong.

When Jesus was talking those words of Matt.16: 15-19 only Peter was present.Peter was the one that also received the "Keys". Peter received both, [ a name change always meant an important position ]

No, it means to make a point.

he received the commission from Jesus to preside over His earthly Church and he was given the keys to bind and loose.

There is nothing here that says Peter gets to preside over anything.

[Lively Stone]

It wasnt them who sent messages.
We are ALL saints according to the Bible, and making people into a 'saint' isnt Biblical, nor is it Biblical to receive anything from someone who has died. God speaks to us through The Gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy, and through the Bible, and He does not use dead human beings.

This is absolute truth. The belief that the Lord would have us speak to the dead or that the dead can hear prayers and respond in any way is a throwback to paganism and is fostered by unbelief, the lack of faith in the sufficiency and Lordship of Jesus Christ and His word, and the teaching of man-made false doctrine.

[neophyte]

Those souls in heaven are very much alive. The body dies the soul lives.

[n2thelight]

Catholica

We don't communicate with dead people.

From that logic nobody is dead,as all return to heaven,so my question is who are the dead that we are not to communicate with?

No one "returns" to heaven but Jesus. Not everyone goes to heaven either. But those two things are off topic to discuss.

Before Jesus opened the gates of heaven, the saved awaited Him in a place known as Abraham's bosom. Today, if anyone calls up the dead to communicate with them, they are talking to a demon. If anyone passively is the subject of a message from a spiritual being, it is either an angel, a demon, the Lord, or a saint.

What we are forbidden from doing is trying to gather for ourselves information from the spiritual realm. That is the sin. It is not a sin to be the passive recipient of a vision or apparition. It is not a sin to ask someone to pray to God for us.

Christ died so that we could go straight to God....

Mark 15:38 "And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."

This was the sacrifice hour, the ninth hour of the day when the chief priest would go into the holy of holies and make sacrifice for the sins of the people. It was a forbidden place for the people to enter and look upon, and now with this veil of the Temple rent in two, the people now had access to look into and approach the very throne of God. This was the daily oblation or sacrifice that offered a lamb, and now here the Lamb of God was offered for one and all times for all those that by faith would believe on Christ, and repent to the Father in "Jesus name". Jesus name became our credentials to approach the throne of God in repentance, and the blood of Christ made it all possible. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for one and all times.

Do you know what was meant in the term "the veil was rent in twain"? The Holy of holies was covered by the law, and it stated that one time each year, one individual, the High Priest, could penetrate the holy of Holies. That means that he could go into the presence of God Himself. That veil was very think and it was not a small thing that this curtain was rent in two from the top to the bottom. This meant that it was a divine supplication, letting us know that it was God that did it.

Now in Christ even you and I can go in and approach the throne of God. Even though you are a sinner, God loved you enough that He paid the price allows that barrier to be removed. It was an awesome price that Christ paid, and that is why when you say, salvation is fee, it is only free because the price has already been paid. Now you can come to the Father at any time and say, Father, I love you. That pleases Him, and with His love for you, come His blessings for you. You now have the right to say directly to Him

My question,why would you want to go through some one else?You all think that asking someone who has died to pray for us is the same as someone here on earth,but it's not.....

You all do Christ a great in justice!!!!

And one more thing,we should not even pray to Christ,the correct form of prayer should be directed straight to God,in the name of Christ......

[neophyte]

Then how do you explain the fact that after the curtain was torn in half-after the Resurrection-Jesus proceeded to appoint clergy and establish a Church? Christ's sacrifice and the tearing of the curtain symbolize several things:

1) The Jewish economy (the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant) has been done away with.

2) Our high priest (Jesus) has the right to enter the heavenly tabernacle.

3) We approach God through Jesus and the Christian economy rather than through the Jewish or Mosaic economy.

4) That heaven has now been opened to receive the saints, who were previously kept at Abraham's bosom.

What it doesn't imply is the demise of all rituals (or else we would not have baptism and the Eucharist) or that there will be no priests in the Law of Christ/New Covenant way of approaching God. It simply signifies the passing away of the Jewish economy.

[Jimmy]

Then how do you explain the fact that after the curtain was torn in half-after the Resurrection-Jesus proceeded to appoint clergy and establish a Church? Christ's sacrifice and the tearing of the curtain symbolize several things:

1) The Jewish economy (the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant) has been done away with.

2) Our high priest (Jesus) has the right to enter the heavenly tabernacle.

3) We approach God through Jesus and the Christian economy rather than through the Jewish or Mosaic economy.

4) That heaven has now been opened to receive the saints, who were previously kept at Abraham's bosom.

What it doesn't imply is the demise of all rituals (or else we would not have baptism and the Eucharist) or that there will be no priests in the Law of Christ/New Covenant way of approaching God. It simply signifies the passing away of the Jewish economy.

1) The Jewish economy (the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant) has been done away with.

The Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant;  but the Law of Moses was not done away with.  It remains the measure of trangressions and sins.  It is the tutor, even now, bringing  the lost to Christ (Gal 3:25).

2) Our high priest (Jesus) has the right to enter the heavenly tabernacle.

Our high priest entered the heavenly tabernacle, once for all. He need not ever do it again (Heb 9:21-26).  The sacrifice was offered and accepted. He now sits at the God's right hand (Acts 2:32-36)

3) We approach God through Jesus and the Christian economy rather than through the Jewish or Mosaic economy.

I am not certain what you are trying to say there. God has always been reached through faith. There was never any other way.  Under the Old Covenant the faith was in the promise of the Messiah to come.  Under the New Covenant the faith is in the Messiah that has come.

4) That heaven has now been opened to receive the saints, who were previously kept at Abraham's bosom.

It isn't clear to me that the distinction that you make between heaven and Abraham's bosom is legitimate.  It is possible but it is certainly open for discussion.

[neophyte]

 Old Testament law, as such, is not binding on Christians. It never has been. In fact, it was only ever binding on those to whom it was delivered—the Jews (Israelites). That said, some of that law contains elements of a law that is binding on all people of every place and time. Jesus and Paul provide evidence of this in the New Testament.

Matthew's Gospel enlightens us to Jesus' teaching concerning Old Testament law:

[A Pharisee lawyer] asked him a question, to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matt. 22:34-40)

In saying this, Jesus declared the breadth of the new law of his new covenant which brings to perfection the old law. He explained further to his disciples .found here in [ Matt.5:17-19 ]

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. .... "

How could Jesus fulfill the Old Testament law without relaxing it? The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment" (CCC 2053).

A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture explains,

The solemnity of our Lord's opening pronouncements and his clear intention of inaugurating a new religious movement make it necessary for him to explain his position with regard to the [Old Testament law]. He has not come to abrogate but to bring it to perfection, i.e. to reveal the full intention of the divine legislator. The sense of this "fulfilling" . . . is the total expression of God's will in the old order . . . Far from dying . . . the old moral order is to rise to a new life, infused with a new spirit. (861)

  Jimmy this is how Jesus perfects OT Law--

Old Testament law included many dietary regulations which were instituted as a preparation for his teaching on the moral law. Jesus discussed these laws:

"Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (Mark 7:14-19)

The Catechism explains, "Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation . . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts . . ." (CCC 582). Paul taught similarly concerning other Old Testament law:

"Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon . . . These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ . . . Why do you submit to regulations, "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh. (Col. 2:16-17; 20-23)

In this passage we can see that Paul recognized that much of the Old Testament law was instituted to set the stage for the new law that Christ would usher in. Much of the old law's value could be viewed in this regard.

Jesus' teaching about the Sabbath indicates similar value in part of the Old Testament regulation of the Sabbath:

Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is lord of the Sabbath." (Matt. 12:1-8)

Clearly, Jesus indicated that he—not the Old Testament—had authority over the Sabbath, and its regulation was not as rigid as the Pharisees thought. In fact, once Jesus would endow the hierarchy of his Church with his own authority (Matt. 16:19; 18:18), regulation of worship would become the domain of the Church.

It is important to point our here that the obligation to worship is something all people of every place and time can know simply through the use of reason. It is knowledge built into the human conscience as part of what is called the "natural law." Paul makes note of such law when discussing those of his own time who were never bound by Old Testament law: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts . . ." (Rom. 2:14-15a).

The Ten Commandments are often cited as examples of the natural law. Christians are obliged to follow the laws cited in the Ten Commandments not because they are cited in the Ten Commandments—part of Old Testament law—but because they are part of the natural law—for the most part.

Certainly we can know by reason alone that certain actions are immoral—e.g., to kill the innocent, to take what does not belong to us, to cheat on our spouses, etc.

Similarly, we can know by reason alone that we are obliged to worship our Creator. But can we really know in the same way that such worship should take place on Saturday every week? Of course not! That part of the Sabbath commandment is not part of the natural law at all but was simply a law imposed upon the Jews for the discipline of their nation. Other people had the authority to choose for themselves the time they set aside for worship. For Christians now, it makes sense to do this on Sunday.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains,

The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship as a sign of his universal beneficence to all. Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people. (CCC 2176)

Old Testament law required, as a discipline, that the Jews worship on Saturday. Similarly, the Church obliges Catholics to worship on Sunday, the day of the Lord's Resurrection.

Like the majority of the law found in the Ten Commandments, the Church's teaching on the immorality of homosexual activity is part of the natural law. People of every time and place can know this through reason alone and are bound by it even without explicit teaching on it. It wasn't absolutely necessary for God to include such teaching in Old Testament law, nor was it absolutely necessary to include it in the New Testament. Even so, the New Testament contains ample teaching in this regard. (For a fuller treatment of this issue, see "Homosexuality," This Rock, April 2006.)



Christians are bound to the law of Christ which, of course, includes the natural law.

Old Testament law contains elements of natural law—e.g., the condemnation of homosexual activity—to which Christians are bound for that reason, not because of their inclusion in the Old Testament. Christians do not have liberty on these issues.

Also, Christians are not and have never been bound by Old Testament law for its own sake, and those elements of Old Testament law which are not part of the natural law—e.g., the obligation to worship on Saturday —were only ever binding on the Jews. Christians do have liberty on those issues.

[Jimmy]

]

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. .... "

How could Jesus fulfill the Old Testament law without relaxing it? The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment" (CCC 2053).

All that really says is that you do not know what He meant by "fulfulling the Law". 

The fulfillment of the Law has to do with the payment of the penalty for transgressing the Law.  That is what Jesus did in fulfilling the Law, i.e., He paid the penalty for our transgressions; at least for those who believe and obey.  And since His sacrifice was made once for all, then all of the sacrifices due under the Law were fulfilled as well. Some other aspects of the Law having to do with clean foods etc. were set aside also.  But the Law itself is still in operation.

[n2thelight]

The problem I see most have is,they don't no the differences between Laws Ordinances and Statues

People say we are no longer under the law,Thou shalt not kill,that was a law....Question,since most say the law was abolished,can one go and kill???

Definition of "Law"

"LAW. In its most general and comprehensive sense, law signifies a rule of action; and this term is applied indiscriminately to all kinds of action; whether animate or inanimate, rational or irrational. In its more confined sense, law denotes the rule, not of actions in general, but of human action or conduct.

Law is generally divided into four principle classes, namely: natural law, the law of nations, public law, and private or civil law. When considered in relation to its origin, it is statute law or common law. When examined as to its different systems it is divided into civil law, common law, canon law. When applied to objects, it is civil, criminal, or penal. It is also divided into natural law and positive law. Into written law, lex scripta; and unwritten law, lex non scripta. Into law merchant, martial law, municipal, and foreign law. When considered as to their duration, laws are immutable and arbitrary or positive; when as to their effect, they are prospective and retrospective" (Bouvier Law Dictionary, Revised Sixth Edition, 1856).

From Strong's Concordance, entry number H8451, torah:

"law, direction, instruction

a. instruction, direction (human or divine)

1. body of prophetic teaching

2. instruction in Messianic age

3. body of priestly direction or instruction

4. body of legal directives

b. law

1. law of the burnt offering

2. of special law, codes of law

c. custom, manner

d. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law"

As you can see in the above definitions both Bouvier and Strong's agree, in that the word "law" encompasses a wide spectrum of activities, and rules of conduct. The word "law" has always been used when speaking of any rule of conduct, including statutes and ordinances.

However it is important to understand that statutes and ordinances differ from the Commandments in three important ways:

1. They must be in harmony, and in compliance with the fundamental law (the Ten Command-ments);

2. They are limited in the duration of their enforcement;

3. Ordinances can be readily changed or modified usually due to changing circumstances.

The Ten Commandments are considered the fundamental law as can be ascertained in the following definition:

Definition of "Commandment"

"The law (torah) was the title of the Pentateuch, constituting the 1st division of the canon (Luke 24:44); the legal portion, consisting of the Ten Commandments, which form the fundamental law of the theocracy, and statutes based on them, was given at Sinai" (The New Westminster Bible Dictionary).

In Exodus 20, not one of the commandments ends with a time period, as to the length of time it shall be in force. That is not the case when you consider the statutes.

Definition of "Statute"

"The written will of the legislature, solemnly expressed according to the forms prescribed in the constitution; an act of the legislature. This word is used in contradistinction to the common law. Statutes acquire their force from the time of their passage unless otherwise provided.

Statutes are of several kinds: namely, public or private. Declaratory or remedial. Temporary or perpetual. 1. A temporary statute is one which is limited in its duration at the time of its enactment. It continues in force until the time of its limitation has expired, unless sooner repealed. A perpetual statute is one for the continuance of which there is no limited time, although it be not expressly declared to be so. If, however, a statute which did not itself contain any limitation, is to be governed by another which is temporary only, the former will also be temporary and dependent upon the existence of the latter" (Bouvier Law Dictionary, Revised Sixth Edition, 1856).

After the institution of the feasts of the passover season:

"And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings" (Lev 23:14, KJV).

In other words, statutes, after enactment, have a limited period of duration although the duration may be perpetual. Notice that the statute (in Leviticus) has a time limit (for-ever throughout your generations) whilst the commandments have no time limits imposed.

Definition of "Ordinance"

"Strictly, a bill or law which might stand with the old law, and did not alter any statute in force at the time. A bill or law which might at any time be amended by the parliament, without any statute" (Black's Law Dictionary, Third Edition).

As you can see in the above definition, the ordinance can not alter the statute in any way, and can be amended at any time.

Bible Example of Laws, Statutes and Ordinances

"And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof" (Ex 12:43–48, KJV).

In contrast, look at:

"Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the Lord thy God giveth thee: But at the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt" (Deut 16:5–6, KJV).

Also:

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me... After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me" (1Cor 11:13, KJV).

The time limit on ordinances, depends on the duration of the Statute it supports however, ordinances can, at any time be amended, based on the circumstances. The "ordinance" of the Passover was changed in Exodus 12, and Deuteronomy 16, then again in the New Testament. That is to say, that the location and not the timing of the observance was changed due to the different circumstances. Notice that the statute dealing with the Passover, sets the time and duration of the observance of this feast.

"These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover" (Lev 23:4–5, KJV).

However, the ordinance deals only with the procedures to implement the statute. In other words, the start and end of the feast is an integral part of the statute. (Also, note the addition of the new procedure, "foot washing").

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you" (John 13:14–15, KJV).

With the information that we now possess as to the workings of the law, we can confidently conclude that:

a) The "Ten Commandments" are the fundamental and supreme law which will always be in effect. (The commandments as the Messiah Himself "broke down" into two commandments, is the universal law of "Love" which is a spiritual law that had to be made physical for us humans to understand, seeing that we are only physical beings.)

b) All "Statutes" must be in harmony with the fundamental law and although having a time limit, are, in effect, until the beginning of the prophesied millennium mentioned in Revelation. (The "world" to come or the third "earth age" as some call it)

c) All "Ordinances" must be in harmony with the statutes and can be changed at any time.

The Law, that was "done away with," can only be referring to the "Ordinances" dealing with the sacrifices which were added. Also note that most of these ordinances were carried out by the Levitical priesthood who were removed.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made..." (Gal 3:19, KJV).

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal 3:24–25, KJV).

The "schoolmaster" was the law of sacrifices (actually ordinances that can be changed or amended due to changing circumstances) which job it was to point to the coming Christ, Yahshua.

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; the statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them Your servant is warned, and in keeping them there is great reward" (Psalm 19:7–11).

Hope that helped........

[neophyte]

The Church gets her authority from Jesus to make these laws. He told the leaders of his Church, "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Mt 16:19, 18:18).

This language of "binding and loosing" was a Jewish phrase that was that meant forbidding and permitting. This pertained to the ability of scribes and Pharisees to establish rules of conduct for the faith community, and the good Jew was called by Christ to obey them (Matt. 23:3).

Since Jesus gave this authority to the leaders of his Church, they have authority to do such things as establish feast days and lay down laws for the good of the community

Knowledge built into the human conscience as part of what is called the "natural law." Paul makes note of such law when discussing those of his own time who were never bound by Old Testament law: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts . . ." (Rom. 2:14-15a).

The Ten Commandments are often cited as examples of the natural law. Christians are obliged to follow the laws cited in the Ten Commandments not because they are cited in the Ten Commandments—part of Old Testament law—but because they are part of the natural law—for the most part.

Certainly we can know by reason alone that certain actions are immoral—e.g., to kill the innocent, to take what does not belong to us, to cheat on our spouses, etc.

Similarly, we can know by reason alone that we are obliged to worship our Creator. But can we really know in the same way that such worship should take place on Saturday every week? Of course not! That part of the Sabbath commandment is not part of the natural law at all but was simply a law imposed upon the Jews for the discipline of their nation. Other people had the authority to choose for themselves the time they set aside for worship. For Christians now, it makes sense to do this on Sunday.

[hammer123]

That is why they are called Protestants.  They reject the reject the Catholic infallible word of God for there man-made inventions and wicked devices.

Everyone has their man-made traditions.

At least the ones in Judaism and Messianic Judaism were around when Our Lord was here and could comment on them.  Those HE did not specifically decry we kept.

The orthodox, rcc and protestant faith streams came about AFTER THE FACT so there is no biblical record of Our Lord commenting on them.

Messianic Judaism was not formed until the 19th century.

Messianic Judaism was formed when Peter and the other apostles began following Jesus,

[hammer123]

Catholics don't you know that God dwells inside his people?  That each person that the holy spirit dwells in is the church.

[neophyte]

Only Christ's One Church which is Apostolic received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost Sunday 1ST. Century ,only the Twelve Apostles received the "Tongues of Fire "the other120 disciples were in the building but not in the upper chamber. Only the Apostles received the HS and were  the only twelve at that time directly following Pentecost to be "sent out. "Only His Church which is based on His Apostles contains the "Fullness of The Faith''.
We can see from reading Matt. 18:15-18 that if everybody as you imply has the HS inside them on the "Fullness of the Faith" why does Jesus tells us that if members of His Christian Faith including the future "sola Scriptura alone members" can not reason with the " troubled' brother " then why does Jesus tell them [ us ] to always bring that person to the church, but the question is which church , of course it means His Church , that Church can only be His Apostolic Church because it was the only Church that was ever formed by Jesus on His chosen apostles. This was then passed on to their biblical successors. Jesus formed His Teaching Church founded on His Teaching  Apostles [ Matt.28: 18-20 ] for not only the first Christians but for all future people .

[Paulus]

Catholics don't you know that God dwells inside his people? 

Yes it's great isn't it ?

[Reformed Catholic]

Was the Jewish Church "infallible"?

Can we really trust the Old Testament since it was handed down to us by an assembly of people who were not infallible in any capacity, not even in conciliar capacity, and known for their hardness of heart and frequent infidelity towards God?

Haunting questions, wouldn't you say?

[DaveW]

Was the Jewish Church "infallible"?

Can we really trust the Old Testament since it was handed down to us by an assembly of people who were not infallible in any capacity, not even in conciliar capacity, and known for their hardness of heart and frequent infidelity towards God?

Haunting questions, wouldn't you say?

Not really. Sure, the Masorites did some damage to the OT texts. But God is faithful even when men are not. Part of that faithfulness is maintaining HIS word.  (which according to Paul STILL is to be maintained by the Jews)

Rom 3.1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Rom 11.29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

That includes the calling on the Jewish people of being the maintainers of God's word.

[Reformed Catholic]

Was the Jewish Church "infallible"?

Can we really trust the Old Testament since it was handed down to us by an assembly of people who were not infallible in any capacity, not even in conciliar capacity, and known for their hardness of heart and frequent infidelity towards God?

Haunting questions, wouldn't you say?

Not really. Sure, the Masorites did some damage to the OT texts. But God is faithful even when men are not. Part of that faithfulness is maintaining HIS word.  (which according to Paul STILL is to be maintained by the Jews)

Rom 3.1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Rom 11.29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

That includes the calling on the Jewish people of being the maintainers of God's word.

You failed to detect the irony in my post.

Those were rhetorical questions with the claims of Roman Catholicism in the background.

[neophyte]

Any Church if it was formed by Jesus on His Apostles was infallible and still is infallible based on Apostolic Traditional Teachings along with the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible as it was intended [ intended as in meaning only "One'' original interpretation, and not more than one but only ONE.]

[n2thelight]

Any Church if it was formed by Jesus on His Apostles was infallible and still is infallible based on Apostolic Traditional Teachings along with the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible as it was intended [ intended as in meaning only "One'' original interpretation, and not more than one but only ONE.]

So if the Catholic Church,has the correct interpretation...couple questions

Who is the whore in Rev
Who is the anti christ
Who were the sons of God in Gen

[Selene]

Any Church if it was formed by Jesus on His Apostles was infallible and still is infallible based on Apostolic Traditional Teachings along with the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible as it was intended [ intended as in meaning only "One'' original interpretation, and not more than one but only ONE.]

So if the Catholic Church,has the correct interpretation...couple questions

Who is the whore in Rev
Who is the anti christ
Who were the sons of God in Gen

The whore in Revelations was the emperor Nero.  The anti-Christ are those who teach against Christ and His Church.  As for the sons of God in Genesis, could you cite the chapter and verse. 

[Red Baker]

I will say that those who truly believe will reject any man who claims that their church, their priest/pastor/leaders have the ability, or, power/right from God to be infallible in their teachings!

Does this answer your question?

Every child of God is commanded by the apostles of our Lord to try the spirits; prove all things; and to search the scriptures to see if those things are so or not, just as the Bereans did Paul, who was a close to be infallible as they come in the flesh!  Acts 17:11

RB

[neophyte]

Red Baker, you have many misunderstandings of Holy Scripture, including about St.Paul and the Bereans.

You also do not understand that Jesus transfered His Authority to His Teaching Apostles and they pass it on to their future presbyters/ priests See [ Luke 10:16 ] read these verses to confirm that the apostles ordained successor presbyters/priests, for example - Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Titus and Matthias, see [ Acts13:3, 14:22, 1:24-26, and Titus 1:5 ]

Red Baker, we can see that St.Paul's teaching in Berea as cited in Acts is one of many places where the New Testament provides evidence of Sacred Tradition.

For example, Jesus' commandment to the Apostles at the end of Matthew's Gospel logically assumes the necessity of Sacred Tradition:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age. (Matt. 28:19-20)

Jesus didn't tell the apostles to write down everything he had taught them. He simply commanded them to teach it. Much of this teaching later made its way into Sacred Scripture, but every bit of it was and still is considered Sacred Tradition.

Hold to the Tradition

In fact, we know that not everything Jesus taught was eventually committed to writing.[ this is called "Sacred Tradition " ] John tells us as much at the end of his Gospel, (John 21:25). Some of Jesus' teachings had not yet made it into written form by the date John finished writing his Gospel.

Turning to Luke, we see that he begins his Gospel by explaining why he is writing it. Luke points out that others have already committed certain things to writing, and he thinks it is a good idea to write down what his reader has already been taught [ Luke 1:1-4 ]

Luke, then, commits to writing what has already been taught. That teaching is Sacred Tradition just as surely as Luke's Gospel will later be recognized as Sacred Scripture.

Moving beyond the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles, we find that St.Paul provides even more explicit evidence of Sacred Tradition in his writings. Here are three examples:

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).
"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

In the above third verse, Paul speaks of Sacred Tradition as being taught both orally and in writing. The written teaching would later be canonized as Sacred Scripture, so this verse suggests how Sacred Tradition preceded Sacred Scripture.

Near the end of Paul's ministry he instructed Timothy to carry on the Sacred Tradition passed down to him: "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (2 Tim. 1:13-14). Paul went on to instruct Timothy to pass down that Sacred Tradition to others: "And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2).

Throughout history, the Catholic Church alone has continued to safeguard and teach the fullness of the Christian faith. This faith is complete only when it includes Sacred Tradition.

The Church sums it up well:-       -
This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes. The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer." (CCC 78)

[Selene]

I will say that those who truly believe will reject any man who claims that their church, their priest/pastor/leaders have the ability, or, power/right from God to be infallible in their teachings!

Does this answer your question?

Every child of God is commanded by the apostles of our Lord to try the spirits; prove all things; and to search the scriptures to see if those things are so or not, just as the Bereans did Paul, who was a close to be infallible as they come in the flesh!  Acts 17:11

RB

St. Paul was infallible in regards to the teachings of faith and morals because it was the Holy Spirit in him who speaks.   Likewise, the Pope is infallible only in the teachings of morals and faith.  Anything outside of faith and morals, the Pope is fallible. 

Mark 13:11    Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

[Jimmy]

I will say that those who truly believe will reject any man who claims that their church, their priest/pastor/leaders have the ability, or, power/right from God to be infallible in their teachings!

Does this answer your question?

Every child of God is commanded by the apostles of our Lord to try the spirits; prove all things; and to search the scriptures to see if those things are so or not, just as the Bereans did Paul, who was a close to be infallible as they come in the flesh!  Acts 17:11

RB

St. Paul was infallible in regards to the teachings of faith and morals because it was the Holy Spirit in him who speaks.   Likewise, the Pope is infallible only in the teachings of morals and faith.  Anything outside of faith and morals, the Pope is fallible. 

Mark 13:11    Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

That statement by Jesus was directed at the twelve.  It was not directed at you, me or someone calling himself the Pope.

[neophyte]

The Pope is in direct succession in lineage from the Twelve Apostles as according to the Holy Bible.