Marriage

[Cally]

Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

I've seen a lot of long lasting marriages where the man just rules the house, the women rules the house, and where they actually do get along.  In Lively Stone's initial posts she seemed proud of mentioning that her husband didn't really have a problem defering to her on most things.

My father-in-law once said, "I didn't raise those kids, XXXXX raised them.  I was working.  I've always had a company car and she runs the house.  I don't make any decisions, she does.  She buys the groceries, pays the bills, buys my clothes, picks out my ties.  The only thing I have is the set of golf clubs in my trunk, and she picked them out and bought them for me last Christmas."  He was close to 70 at the time.  Then he said, "Yep, those race horses can cost you."  They're coming up on 50 years of marriage, and I'm sure she is very happy.

What works for one marriage doesnt work for another. We all have different characters and personalities, and we all find what works for us as a couple.

IF your father in law wasnt happy, then why oh why didnt he do anything about it?? He has no one to blame but himself. After all he has had enough time hasnt he, and some men just cant be bothered to try and put things right. I have no sympathy for such men.


Likening his wife to a race horse just shows the bad attidude that he has towrds her.I hope that he isnt a Christian with an attitude like that.

Boy I am realising more than ever what a godly and amazing husband that I have, who always treats me with the utmost love and respect.

I really liked the husband's example that I think is highly telling:

After what we'll call "her mistake" we're laying in bed and she say's "You shouldn't give up on me when you know your right."  I said, "What do you mean?"  "Well, when you know your right, you shouldn't give up on me.  You should keep fighting."  I think she might have mixed in something about "If you really loved loved me you wouldn't give up on me" or some crazy nonsense like that.  So,...it's all my fault,.... again,.... because I'm not enough of an "asshole" to keep fighting?  Oh,...and somehow, this is proof that I don't Love her?  I am obviously a neanderthal, anyone with half a brain can understand this.

Look, even the WIFE SAYS THAT HIM STANDING HIS GROUND WAS THE LOVING THING TO DO!

What do you need, a neon sign? If people are saying, "no, love her like Christ," then they are clearly using that line to give her control over him, not for him to actually love her properly.

I fear that this says a lot about people's understanding of Jesus, their savior, and their Lord, the church's husband--he is our authority and he does indeed demand obedience and respect. He tolerates us as we learn better to serve him, but there's no doubt that he demands reverence and respect.

[NowFound]

Whew.  This is a big thread and has wandered in several different directions.

It's obvious everyone here wants to help.  And also that not everyone has the same guidance or viewpoints.  We all carry our own history and situations in with us, but not all are helpful in the end.

So here is my attempt.  It seems that the originator of the thread was looking for how to get to a better spot in her marriage.  It seems like her husband also wants to get to a better spot.  How to get there?

Pray
Reach out to God through prayer. Separately and together.  Extend it out, pray with the entire family.  Carve out a time to do a family devotion.  Prayer changes things.

Talk
Counseling.  So you've had two counselors that didn't meet your needs.  Find another one.  It will not be easy, you'll probably have times when you walk away and feel even more frustrated than before.  It took awhile to get to this point, it will likely take awhile to work back to a holy, healthy marital relationship.

Listen
To each other and to the Holy Spirit with respect and love.
For the tendencies to respond in anger, turn to the Lord and ask in help taming your tongues.  For the tendencies to bottle thing up, share in love.  (Hopefully the counselor would be able to help y'all set ground rules)

All of this can be done.  Many marriages in much worse shape have been redeeemed. 

Know that my prayers are being lifted up for you both. 

[chosenone]

Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

I've seen a lot of long lasting marriages where the man just rules the house, the women rules the house, and where they actually do get along.  In Lively Stone's initial posts she seemed proud of mentioning that her husband didn't really have a problem defering to her on most things.

My father-in-law once said, "I didn't raise those kids, XXXXX raised them.  I was working.  I've always had a company car and she runs the house.  I don't make any decisions, she does.  She buys the groceries, pays the bills, buys my clothes, picks out my ties.  The only thing I have is the set of golf clubs in my trunk, and she picked them out and bought them for me last Christmas."  He was close to 70 at the time.  Then he said, "Yep, those race horses can cost you."  They're coming up on 50 years of marriage, and I'm sure she is very happy.

What works for one marriage doesnt work for another. We all have different characters and personalities, and we all find what works for us as a couple.

IF your father in law wasnt happy, then why oh why didnt he do anything about it?? He has no one to blame but himself. After all he has had enough time hasnt he, and some men just cant be bothered to try and put things right. I have no sympathy for such men.


Likening his wife to a race horse just shows the bad attidude that he has towrds her.I hope that he isnt a Christian with an attitude like that.

Boy I am realising more than ever what a godly and amazing husband that I have, who always treats me with the utmost love and respect.

I really liked the husband's example that I think is highly telling:

After what we'll call "her mistake" we're laying in bed and she say's "You shouldn't give up on me when you know your right."  I said, "What do you mean?"  "Well, when you know your right, you shouldn't give up on me.  You should keep fighting."  I think she might have mixed in something about "If you really loved loved me you wouldn't give up on me" or some crazy nonsense like that.  So,...it's all my fault,.... again,.... because I'm not enough of an "asshole" to keep fighting?  Oh,...and somehow, this is proof that I don't Love her?  I am obviously a neanderthal, anyone with half a brain can understand this.

Look, even the WIFE SAYS THAT HIM STANDING HIS GROUND WAS THE LOVING THING TO DO!

What do you need, a neon sign? If people are saying, "no, love her like Christ," then they are clearly using that line to give her control over him, not for him to actually love her properly.

I fear that this says a lot about people's understanding of Jesus, their savior, and their Lord, the church's husband--he is our authority and he does indeed demand obedience and respect. He tolerates us as we learn better to serve him, but there's no doubt that he demands reverence and respect.

He doesnt 'demand' anything. He SHOWS us how to love, respect and serve, and then He asks us to copy him. BIG difference.

[Lively Stone]

He doesnt 'demand' anything. He SHOWS us how to love, respect and serve, and then He asks us to copy him. BIG difference.

Amen, sister! We love Him because He first loved us and gave Himself for us. We learn how to love by His example of it, all done with the greatest humility, which is a quality that is missing in troubled marriages. We need to humble ourselves before our spouses, and love in spite of the unloveliness we see. We need to readily---quickly, and completely---forgive the other whether he or she is repentant or not!

[p.progress]

I'm still checking back, hoping somebody comes up something that might work.  What I see is that most people on the thread are very close to the middle.  The egalitarians mostly being women (or liberal men) and the complimentarians mostly being men (or conservative women).  But in reality on a scale of 10 with zero being one side and 10 being the other, not many seem to be more than 1 point from the center. That 1 point isn't very much, unless it's what stands between you and your spouse.

I'm a complimentarian who is about 1/4 point off the middle, but I'm not budging.  I truly believe it is God's way.  Too many things in nature, psychology, sociology, logic, tradition, experience, and of course the Bible lead, point, and support that view.

Being that close to the middle means I understand how difficult it must be for a women to see her relationship from that point of view, especially having been raised the American way.  I don't know how else to put it.  America has a lot going for it, but it's current trend seems to be towards a self-destructing society.  Anyway, I know it has to be hard.  But doing the right thing is usually not the easy one.

Bill Hybel wrote a book, and while I can't say I "buy into" all of it, one part was about how to "test" discernment.  I can't remember all of it, but the one thing that really stuck in my head was that one of his tests was to question what you thought God may be wanting of you with, "Is it convenient?"

It's not convenient for her to submit, it's not convenient for me to fight, and experince has taught me that submitting to her against my better judgement/discernment is a bad idea for everyone.  Given the potential outcome, submitting to my wife might be the most convenient path, but I am not getting that "message".  It definetely passes the test of not being convenient.

Here's another example/story.  After what we'll call "her mistake" we're laying in bed and she say's "You shouldn't give up on me when you know your right."  I said, "What do you mean?"  "Well, when you know your right, you shouldn't give up on me.  You should keep fighting."  I think she might have mixed in something about "If you really loved loved me you wouldn't give up on me" or some crazy nonsense like that.  So,...it's all my fault,.... again,.... because I'm not enough of an "asshole" to keep fighting?  Oh,...and somehow, this is proof that I don't Love her?  I am obviously a neanderthal, anyone with half a brain can understand this.

I am not going to submit, and I am done fighting.  The eventual outcome is catastophically inconvenient.  I'm still praying.

By the way Lively Stone, I think you and Eve should get together and share some fruit.  The Bible tells us that it is very good for gaining wisdom.  Sorry, but I don't want anyone here to think I'm listening to you.

Greetings justwonderingshusband (JWH).

Please do me a favor JWH, if you would and are able. Please send me a personal message. I have no idea how to get a hold of you. I've sent some messages but they don't get through...or didn't. I tried to find where you gave another place to send a message; but missing where it is.

What I have to say will really upset a certain faction here, and I am not in the least desirous - at this time anyway - to have more space here wasted by all the hornets buzzing about by the things I would present. I can tell you, it will be scripturally sound and practical (which sound doctrine is all about).

I have really appreciated some posts here, like Cally's posts: great insight brother Cally.

There are a few others as well - just a precious few - I have read that are giving you good counsel and encouragement in the things that the scriptures are clear on; clear on with respect to what God says and instructs men are to think according to and display...act upon, for the benefit and good of their wives.

Please, do message me, so I'll be able to speak to you more man to man. Cally, I wish we all could have a conference call and get to know each other and encourage each other.

I am better at listening and speaking via voice, not writing. By reviewing my former posts here and which I have posted on other threads on this forum, it is apparent that I have a perspective that is not shared by those who I deem (judge) to be the flesh and blood fulfillment (manifestation) of the very warnings the Spirit of God gave to Paul, Peter John, Jude and James about what would take place in the Ekklesia in the "latter times".

It pains me to the depths of my heart how certain God's word was/is/will be regarding the extent to which those who, thought they go about (boldly in fact) "professing to know God", by their words and deeds deny the very power they claim to be guided by. Such as Peter warned would cause "the way of truth to be evil spoken of" (to "be blasphemed"). Without, doubt, they do so because they love not the truth, instead they are lovers of the fleshly nature - driven by their fleshly desires. They corrupt the truth; having been willingly corrupted "seduced" by the false teachers that Peter said would bring in destructive "damnable" teachings (heresies) that on the surface sound reasonable to the simple; but are contrary to sound and wholesome teaching (speech...the oracles of God).

How terrifying to see all this take place and spread so quickly in this generation. Peter goes on to state that while these false teachers "promise them liberty", the fact is that they are falling prey to their error, that by no means will deliver the liberty they falsely promise.

But the question is: What sort of 'liberty' was Peter referring to, that these false (but stealth...popular) teachers would 'promise'?

As I understand it, if nothing else, Peter was saying here that these false teachers knowing how to allure through the flesh, and being word magicians, would obviously persuade these ignorant and unstable 'believers' to believe that they would be able think and then DO things (do deeds) that the soberminded, who both fear and love God, otherwise KNOW that they are expressly forbidden to do or live in accordance to.

Well, enough.

Again, if able, please send message; I'd like to get in touch with you, if that is acceptable to you brother.

Be good and gentle to be sure - it is God's goodness that leads to repentance. Be strong, your wife needs it. Be un-moveable in the things you know are wise for the long haul not merely the short term. 

p.progress

[Cally]

He doesnt 'demand' anything. He SHOWS us how to love, respect and serve, and then He asks us to copy him. BIG difference.

Oh . . . so he asks, not demanding . . . so I can politely decline to do what he asks and he's cool with it, right?

I mean, since he doesn't "demand" anything.

[chosenone]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

[chosenone]

He doesnt 'demand' anything. He SHOWS us how to love, respect and serve, and then He asks us to copy him. BIG difference.

Oh . . . so he asks, not demanding . . . so I can politely decline to do what he asks and he's cool with it, right?

I mean, since he doesn't "demand" anything.

He leads by example, as we are supposed to. 'Demanding' isnt something that any Christian husband or wife should ever do. Its poison for a marriage to have such an overbearing, demanding and unloving and disrespectful attitude. You may find that out one day.
ALL of us respond positively to encouragment, love, patience and respect. NO ONE responds well to a demanding, unloving, disrespectful or arrogant person.

[Cally]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You and some others here have been fond of emphasizing and demanding that husbands love their wives (although spinning it in a way never intended) and yet you don't acknowledge that scripture demands that wives respect their husbands?

[MeMyself]

He doesnt 'demand' anything. He SHOWS us how to love, respect and serve, and then He asks us to copy him. BIG difference.

Oh . . . so he asks, not demanding . . . so I can politely decline to do what he asks and he's cool with it, right?

I mean, since he doesn't "demand" anything.

God is love.  We read from the word that love does not demand its own way.

God desires for us to live in ways that glorify and please Him, but He also gives us free will.  When we step out of line, we have His promise to cleanse and forgive us. 

He is not a demanding shepherd, but a gentle one.

[MeMyself]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You and some others here have been fond of emphasizing and demanding that husbands love their wives (although spinning it in a way never intended) and yet you don't acknowledge that scripture demands that wives respect their husbands?

I don't read that verse as a demand, as in STOMP MY FOOT and GET MY WAY, but rather, wise counsel that if followed will lead to blessings and happy relationship.

[Cally]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You and some others here have been fond of emphasizing and demanding that husbands love their wives (although spinning it in a way never intended) and yet you don't acknowledge that scripture demands that wives respect their husbands?

I don't read that verse as a demand, as in STOMP MY FOOT and GET MY WAY, but rather, wise counsel that if followed will lead to blessings and happy relationship.

And yet you, Lively, and chosenone have been demanding that husbands love their wives . . . in such a way that a husband should never demand respect.

Quite the paradox.

[MeMyself]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You and some others here have been fond of emphasizing and demanding that husbands love their wives (although spinning it in a way never intended) and yet you don't acknowledge that scripture demands that wives respect their husbands?

I don't read that verse as a demand, as in STOMP MY FOOT and GET MY WAY, but rather, wise counsel that if followed will lead to blessings and happy relationship.

And yet you, Lively, and chosenone have been demanding that husbands love their wives . . . in such a way that a husband should never demand respect.

Quite the paradox.

No, I haven't.  Not once have I said anything or even implied a DEMAND. 

Men should love and live with their wives in an understanding way, according to scripture.
Women should respect their husbands, according to scripture.

I don't DEMAND that my husband do this...ick.  Who would want that? Loving me and living with me in an understanding way because I DEMAND it and FORCE him to? 

He would feel the same way.  Respect born out of demands boarders on fear.  That can't be as fulfilling as respect born out of free will.

[Cally]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You and some others here have been fond of emphasizing and demanding that husbands love their wives (although spinning it in a way never intended) and yet you don't acknowledge that scripture demands that wives respect their husbands?

I don't read that verse as a demand, as in STOMP MY FOOT and GET MY WAY, but rather, wise counsel that if followed will lead to blessings and happy relationship.

And yet you, Lively, and chosenone have been demanding that husbands love their wives . . . in such a way that a husband should never demand respect.

Quite the paradox.

No, I haven't.  Not once have I said anything or even implied a DEMAND. 

Men should love and live with their wives in an understanding way, according to scripture.
Women should respect their husbands, according to scripture.

I don't DEMAND that my husband do this...ick.  Who would want that? Loving me and living with me in an understanding way because I DEMAND it and FORCE him to? 

He would feel the same way.  Respect born out of demands boarders on fear.  That can't be as fulfilling as respect born out of free will.

This is getting kind of laughable.

Whatever semantics game you want to play with this, in order not to be hypocritical about the whole thing, you might kindly, respectfully "suggest" (or some other word that is distinctly the opposite of a "demanding" manner) your interpretation of what it means for husbands to properly love their wives and beyond that just lead by some kind of gentle example.

What do you think?

[p.progress]

I am not going to submit...

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous - all around [Seeing that the only way we can please God is through the exercise of our faith in his Word and that towards him; and it is clear what he says with respect to the issues addressed above and below].

Better to repent of any failures you may be or are guilty of, and of any sins you've committed, and then suffer the consequences of doing right from here on out, then to suffer another set of consequences for continuing to do anything contrary to what God calls you (all husbands) accountable for, which God later will hold you strictly responsible for, being that you are "the head" of your wife and ruler of your household.

If you are continuing to or are beginning to what God calls you to so as the man (husband and father) of the house...keep it up...don't waver. Do so, knowing that you are doing right by her, your children and your self, by doing what God commands you as her husband. All of which, the Lord holds the man (you and I) responsible for, to act upon - given the position and authority he (you) alone has (have) been granted by God, in the husband and wife relationship.

Better to endure the grievous trials inflicted upon you from a rebellious wife, then to suffer the consequences of being responsible for having feed and/or for continuing to feed such a foolish (silly) and rebellious wife (woman).

...and I am done fighting The eventual outcome is catastrophically inconvenient.

Done fighting? In what way?

In certain ways perhaps you indeed ought to stop fighting. But in all ways...? Are there ways you need to revisit that decision and gird up your loins (so to speak) and re-enter 'the fight'?

The fight of faith...laboring to enter God's rest...to fight for the good of your wife and children...to stop fighting in certain areas, is not something we are permitted to stop.

But I believe you know this. I speak for the benefit of others here as well. But if you need some encouragement in any area you do need perhaps to rethink what your position might be, I am here for you, as are a few others as well.

I am being general here, of course, because I really do not know precisely or intimately enough of your particular issues, or those you are actually facing day to day moment to moment with respect to your wife. I as all here, read what you have said; and what your wife has expressed. But we know little enough to make specific judgments about anything too specifically as I said; or give too detailed advise concerning.

I am tired, so maybe rambling here a bit.

I'm still praying.

Good of course...of course, continue to pray for your wife and family, for yourself. Draw close to the Lord and let all this suffering - and whatever it be the source -  let it move you to seek the face of God.


p.p.

[Janice]

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous ...

And how disastrous the results would be if Jesus took this attitude from the Last Supper to the Cross, where he submitted himself to the best interest of the church!

[Cally]

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous ...

And how disastrous the results would be if Jesus took this attitude from the Last Supper to the Cross, where he submitted himself to the best interest of the church!

He was submitting to his Father, who sent him to submit himself to the best interests of the church.

God was the one who commanded his son. The church didn't.

[Janice]

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous ...

And how disastrous the results would be if Jesus took this attitude from the Last Supper to the Cross, where he submitted himself to the best interest of the church!

He was submitting to his Father, who sent him to submit himself to the best interests of the church.

God was the one who commanded his son. The church didn't.

Okay. He was submitting to the Father. And the Bible is God's word. It says in Eph. 5:21 to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Do you have reverence for Christ? If so, you will practice mutual submission in your marriage. If you submit out of reverence to Christ, you are submitting to God' will, not to your wife.

[Cally]

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous ...

And how disastrous the results would be if Jesus took this attitude from the Last Supper to the Cross, where he submitted himself to the best interest of the church!

He was submitting to his Father, who sent him to submit himself to the best interests of the church.

God was the one who commanded his son. The church didn't.

Okay. He was submitting to the Father. And the Bible is God's word. It says in Eph. 5:21 to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Do you have reverence for Christ? If so, you will practice mutual submission in your marriage. If you submit out of reverence to Christ, you are submitting to God' will, not to your wife.

These are the words "submit" in different contexts. It should be obvious by the context, but advocates of egalitarianism like to ignore obvious things.

"Submit to each other" in that context is referring to putting people's needs ahead of oneself. "Submit to your husbands" is a statement of authority, just like the context of slaves and masters ("slaves submit to your masters"). The "submit to each other" passage, which egalitarians try to use to nullify asymmetrical commands to husbands and wives, is actually immediately followed by "wives, be to your husbands as unto the Master." That is, it is immediately explained what "submitting to each other" entails between wives to husbands, and then husbands to wives, and the practice of "submitting to each other" is explained as having two different implementations: one for the wife, and a different way for the husband.

If "submit to each other" was a statement saying that husbands and wives are exactly the same way to each other, there wouldn't have been any need to address wives one way and husbands another, which is seen often in the New Testament (in a consistent manner). It's such basic, common sense, but those who prefer egalitarianism will use scripture as they please.

[Lively Stone]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You and some others here have been fond of emphasizing and demanding that husbands love their wives (although spinning it in a way never intended) and yet you don't acknowledge that scripture demands that wives respect their husbands?

It isn't hard to respect a husband who loves her as he loves his own self, and loves her s Christ loves the Church---sacrificially. So many husbands make it hard, though, don't they? No wonder they have problems. If men today who are believers understood what a heavy burden marriage is on them in their roles as husbands, we would not have them entering into marriages so easily. Women also, unaware of what they need to be looking for in a husband are ignoring these qualities that God requires in a man. It is no wonder we find so many spouses at loggerheads.

[MeMyself]

PP How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here(yes there are some)are not the only ones who have things of value to contrubute. Of course they agree with you dont they,and maybe you agree that men need to 'demand' obedience as well??? Thank God for my lovely godly husband is all I can say after reading what some of the men here say and think. I am VERY blessed and I realise that more and more.

For to say that those who dont agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers 'is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.
 

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You and some others here have been fond of emphasizing and demanding that husbands love their wives (although spinning it in a way never intended) and yet you don't acknowledge that scripture demands that wives respect their husbands?

I don't read that verse as a demand, as in STOMP MY FOOT and GET MY WAY, but rather, wise counsel that if followed will lead to blessings and happy relationship.

And yet you, Lively, and chosenone have been demanding that husbands love their wives . . . in such a way that a husband should never demand respect.

Quite the paradox.

No, I haven't.  Not once have I said anything or even implied a DEMAND. 

Men should love and live with their wives in an understanding way, according to scripture.
Women should respect their husbands, according to scripture.

I don't DEMAND that my husband do this...ick.  Who would want that? Loving me and living with me in an understanding way because I DEMAND it and FORCE him to? 

He would feel the same way.  Respect born out of demands boarders on fear.  That can't be as fulfilling as respect born out of free will.

This is getting kind of laughable.

Whatever semantics game you want to play with this, in order not to be hypocritical about the whole thing,

again

you might kindly, respectfully "suggest" (or some other word that is distinctly the opposite of a "demanding" manner) your interpretation of what it means for husbands to properly love their wives and beyond that just lead by some kind of gentle example.

I don't think I will. Being told that my honest replies are laughable, and playing a game of semantics, suggesting I am being hypocritical makes me less than thrilled about sharing further. Im kinda nutty that way....

[Lively Stone]

And yet you, Lively, and chosenone have been demanding that husbands love their wives . . . in such a way that a husband should never demand respect.

Quite the paradox.

You have NEVER, EVER witnessed any of us saying anything remotely like that, but have fabricated that notion out of thin air.

The only demands we make on the other is to place a demand on the anointing that God has given each of us---as sister and brother in Christ---not as husband and wife. My anointing is wisdom, and my husband places a demand on that, and it flows. His anointing is in the area of helps and service, and he fulfills that as unto the Lord when the demand is placed on that strength.

[MeMyself]

I am taking the risk of sharing what I consider very wise advice from Denis Rainey to husbands.

He says if a man want to be irresistible (to his wife), he becomes a student of his wife. This principle can be found in Chapter 4 of the book Rekindling the Romance that he and his wife wrote.


He says there are three non negotiable for a satisfying relationship: security, acceptance and emotional connection.

As a woman, I agree...and for me, there can be no feeling of security if demands are being laid down...I don't feel secure when I am on egg shells and my dh is stomping around issuing demands.

Same can be said for the wives.  Be a student of what makes your man tick.  Be honest and forthright in communication.  No game playing if angry or hurt, wishing he would guess what the problems are...those are the egg shells our gender tends to toss about.  Look for ways to bless him, take note on what things speak respect to him the best and then do those things with a happy servant heart.

[Lively Stone]

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous ...

And how disastrous the results would be if Jesus took this attitude from the Last Supper to the Cross, where he submitted himself to the best interest of the church!

Exactly, Janice!

[chosenone]

Its a husbands job to love His wife and its a wives job to respect her husband, but neither should ever 'demand' those thinsgs. Its almost impossible to have any respect for a man who throws his weight around and 'demands' that his wife obeys him. I could never respect a man who did that to me.

[MeMyself]

Its a husbands job to love His wife and its a wives job to respect her husband, but neither should ever 'demand' those thinsgs. Its almost impossible to have any respect for a man who throws his weight around and 'demands' that his wife obeys him. I could never respect a man who did that to me.

me neither!  Also, my dh could never love me if I was throwing mine about either.

[Cally]

I can see a few here want to be completely unreasonable, and then go on talking in paradoxes--demanding that a husband does not make demands.

But I hope the husband in this thread only pays attention to those who spoke to him who actually care about his well-being and dignity, and elects not to put up with verbal abuse and all-around awful behavior from a contentious woman.

[MeMyself]

I can see a few here want to be completely unreasonable,

What are you even talking about?!

and then go on talking in paradoxes--demanding that a husband does not make demands.

That is not true...we are sharing that being a demanding tyrant (husband OR wife)is not the wisest choice of action if one desires a rich, full, healthy relationship.

But I hope the husband in this thread only pays attention to those who spoke to him who actually care about his well-being and dignity, and elects not to put up with verbal abuse and all-around awful behavior from a contentious woman.

But, there is no way anyone here should be labeling his wife as such!  No one knows them or sees their marriage first hand.  The convincing of him that she is so, might just serve as a stumbling block...and that is a very dangerous thing to be!!!

Verbal abuse is absolutely NOT ok, but neither is being a demanding tyrant in return!

OP, please get counseling from someone who can actually walk this through with you and can be a mediator and peace maker between the two of you! Someone that has both of your best interests at heart.

[Janice]

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous ...

And how disastrous the results would be if Jesus took this attitude from the Last Supper to the Cross, where he submitted himself to the best interest of the church!

He was submitting to his Father, who sent him to submit himself to the best interests of the church.

God was the one who commanded his son. The church didn't.

Okay. He was submitting to the Father. And the Bible is God's word. It says in Eph. 5:21 to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Do you have reverence for Christ? If so, you will practice mutual submission in your marriage. If you submit out of reverence to Christ, you are submitting to God' will, not to your wife.

These are the words "submit" in different contexts. It should be obvious by the context, but advocates of egalitarianism like to ignore obvious things.

"Submit to each other" in that context is referring to putting people's needs ahead of oneself. "Submit to your husbands" is a statement of authority, just like the context of slaves and masters ("slaves submit to your masters"). The "submit to each other" passage, which egalitarians try to use to nullify asymmetrical commands to husbands and wives, is actually immediately followed by "wives, be to your husbands as unto the Master." That is, it is immediately explained what "submitting to each other" entails between wives to husbands, and then husbands to wives, and the practice of "submitting to each other" is explained as having two different implementations: one for the wife, and a different way for the husband.

If "submit to each other" was a statement saying that husbands and wives are exactly the same way to each other, there wouldn't have been any need to address wives one way and husbands another, which is seen often in the New Testament (in a consistent manner). It's such basic, common sense, but those who prefer egalitarianism will use scripture as they please.

I believe that the whole idea of submission is addressing issues of power imbalance in authoritative relationships, and shows that there is no authority aside from God's. Jesus humbled himself and became nothing. That is about willingly giving up his authority in order to serve the church and to put her needs above his own. It is the very same with masters/slaves - in todays world that would be employers and employees. In fact, the principle, when applied to  business management, goes a long way for business owners, and employees have much respect for their bosses. In one case I am personally familiar with, one company was called on their debt. They could not pay it, so the bank was shutting them down. The employees had so much respect for him that they all submitted their final pay to him so he could pay off his debt. That was about 30 years ago. They are still in business today. i

The reason men and women are addressed differently is that women have a harder time respecting their husbands, and men have a harder time loving their wives - even though when all the frills are stripped away, love and respect are more synonymous than not. Men and women are called to do exactly the same things for each other. The term "submit" is not about male dominance. It is about the person's attitude. And not only that, but the word "submit" in verse 22 is actually more accurately translated into "respect". Women are to respect their husbands, men to love their wives, and each to submit (a matter of attitude) to each other.

[p.progress]

NOTE:

Chose to remove this post, due to it not being 'concise' enough. 

Edited version posted later - possibly page end of 15 or beginning of 16.

[chosenone]

A good post Janice. Loving and respecting our spouses is something that we choose to do in obedience to God and is NOT something that should ever be forced(or that CAN ever be forced). IF my husband doesnt want to love or respect me, I would never force him and visa versa. We can earn respect by how we act, and by our integrity, and by our obedience to God.
MY respect for my husband is easy, because he is a godly man of great integrity and because he treats me with love and respect. He tells me that I am easy to love. Neither of us ever demands anything of the other.

The husband here needs to work on HIS faults and weaknesses in order to earn her respect, and the wife needs to work on HER faults and weaknesses so that she is easier to love.

Both spouses here are far too condemnding of the other spouse and of what THEY have done wrong. Not enough attention is given to their OWN need to change and sacrifice and forgive. Its the old 'blame game' again, back to Adam and Eve.

[gracey71]

I find it sad that so many still have such a bad view of women. To them we are nothing but property or chattle. For a man to demand respect tells me more about him than her. I also find it ironic that women are often told that no matter how he treats you, we must submit. But when a man has complaints they are told 'well, she needs to be take down a notch!' Why don't we tell them it doesn't matter, you must still love her. Double standards abound.

[MeMyself]

A good post Janice. Loving and respecting our spouses is something that we choose to do in obedience to God and is NOT something that should ever be forced(or that CAN ever be forced). IF my husband doesnt want to love or respect me, I would never force him and visa versa. We can earn respect by how we act, and by our integrity, and by our obedience to God.
MY respect for my husband is easy, because he is a godly man of great integrity and because he treats me with love and respect. He tells me that I am easy to love. Neither of us ever demands anything of the other.

The husband here needs to work on HIS faults and weaknesses in order to earn her respect, and the wife needs to work on HER faults and weaknesses so that she is easier to love.

Both spouses here are far too condemnding of the other spouse and of what THEY have done wrong. Not enough attention is given to their OWN need to change and sacrifice and forgive. Its the old 'blame game' again, back to Adam and Eve.

I agree.

[Janice]

PP, your logic is flawed. I did not read the whole thing. I might have had it been more concise. However, what stood out from what I did read is that you are trying to replace words for words in a given passage. That is illogical. Applying the principle is logical when taken into context with the whole of scripture. The principles have been stated in various ways all over the Bible. It is perhaps the best stated in Philippians 2:1-8.

And we can see the result: God elevated him to the highest place (v. 9). Do you want your high place to be in this world in the context of your marriage, or do you want it to be in the Kingdom?

[Cally]

I find it sad that so many still have such a bad view of women. To them we are nothing but property or chattle. For a man to demand respect tells me more about him than her. I also find it ironic that women are often told that no matter how he treats you, we must submit. But when a man has complaints they are told 'well, she needs to be take down a notch!' Why don't we tell them it doesn't matter, you must still love her. Double standards abound.

1 Peter 3:

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

Kind of sounds like the "double-standard" that you hate, doesn't it? Even in the case of an unbelieving husband, a wife is to be submissive.

And a husband standing up to his wife is not an unloving thing for him to do with her. Marriage is not a symmetrical relationship, because men and women are not exactly the same.