History of Christian view of birth control

[Adamski]

I have greatly research the Christian histirical view of birth control and found until 1930 all denominations forbid birth control (except nfp) as a sin and today the catholic and orthodox stand alone.  They all used genisis 38 as the reason against birth control.  I researched this after I found out Europe's population is drastically decreasing except in Poland and Ireland


Any thoughts

[chosenone]

I have greatly research the Christian histirical view of birth control and found until 1930 all denominations forbid birth control (except nfp) as a sin and today the catholic and orthodox stand alone.  They all used genisis 38 as the reason against birth control.  I researched this after I found out Europe's population is drastically decreasing except in Poland and Ireland


Any thoughts

I have greatly research the Christian histirical view of birth control and found until 1930 all denominations forbid birth control (except nfp) as a sin and today the catholic and orthodox stand alone.  They all used genisis 38 as the reason against birth control.  I researched this after I found out Europe's population is drastically decreasing except in Poland and Ireland


Any thoughts

I wish that our population was decreasing here in the uk. Our birth rate is higher than ever, and we have a constant influx from Eastern Europe, and our maternity units are bursting.
As for birth control, there really wasnt any effective birth control till the date you mentioned, so no wonder no one used it .

I have no problem with prayerful controlling of the number of children that we have. The world would be crazy if we all had 15 children with the population as it is. I think we can all agree that we have quite enough people in the world.

[Catholica]

Adamski, your research is faulty.  The Orthodox also allow for artificial birth control. 

Before 1930, all denominations not only did not allow for artificial birth control, but they called using it a sin.  Now somehow it is not a sin to them.

Chosenone, we do not "all agree that we have quite enough people in the world".  The question is, why do you believe that?

[Adamski]

Both my grandmothers did not use birth control and they only had 3 and 5 children by practicing nfp

The orthodox are divided and do not have a central authority so you may not get a unifo
Answer like the catholic church

I will not get graffic but the same method that is in genisis 38 is about 85% effective and nfp is 95% effective and that has been around non chemically for ever

[Carey]

Adamski, your research is faulty.  The Orthodox also allow for artificial birth control. 

Before 1930, all denominations not only did not allow for artificial birth control, but they called using it a sin.  Now somehow it is not a sin to them.

Chosenone, we do not "all agree that we have quite enough people in the world".  The question is, why do you believe that?

I agree that there are too many people on this planet.  We are teetering on a population that the earth cannot sustain.  This has led to starvation of millions, and agricultural/livestock activities that do not lend themselves to what I would label good stewardship of the land and animals God has given us.

[Adamski]

Wrong population is drastically decreasing
Europe and china will be half the population in the next 50 years

[Carey]

Wrong population is drastically decreasing
Europe and china will be half the population in the next 50 years

That is a good thing.

[Adamski]

Biblical back ground forbidding birth control

Genesis 38:8-10
New International Version (NIV)
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Sleep with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

[Carey]

 

Could failing to perform his duty with such deception be worthy of being labelled wickedness? 

I am reminded of a couple that used deception to make it appear they were doing their duty, and IIRC God made it clear that they were punished not for their actions in profit, but the lies that made them appear righteous.

[chosenone]

Adamski, your research is faulty.  The Orthodox also allow for artificial birth control. 

Before 1930, all denominations not only did not allow for artificial birth control, but they called using it a sin.  Now somehow it is not a sin to them.

Chosenone, we do not "all agree that we have quite enough people in the world".  The question is, why do you believe that?

The earth has difficulty sustaining all those who are alive, let alone more. Many countries of the world including my own, are overcrowded.

[chosenone]

Wrong population is drastically decreasing
Europe and china will be half the population in the next 50 years

I doubt that greatly. The population of China is still incredibly vast, and is only decreasing because of strict one child policies and they abort many of their female babies. They are now softening their stand because there are millions of men and few women in certain age groups, so now they are allowed to have another baby if the first one is a girl. The population of Europe isn't decreasing, I am European and I KNOW this. MY country is vastly overcrowded and the schools and Nhs are struggling to cope and its very hard to get work because of the numbers of applicants.

I think its a brilliant thing if the population were decreasing. I would live to live in a country like Australia and NZ where land is plentiful and cheap and there is space and no overcrowding. A 10%decrease in population would benefit us no end, but practically every family I know has 2-4 children so I cant see that happening.

[chosenone]

Biblical back ground forbidding birth control

Genesis 38:8-10
New International Version (NIV)
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Sleep with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

This has nothing to do with birth control, but was that he was not doing what God specifically told him to do.

[chosenone]

Both my grandmothers did not use birth control and they only had 3 and 5 children by practicing nfp

The orthodox are divided and do not have a central authority so you may not get a unifo
Answer like the catholic church

I will not get graffic but the same method that is in genisis 38 is about 85% effective and nfp is 95% effective and that has been around non chemically for ever

They were lucky and maybe they werent very fertile. My grandparents had 9 and 6 children. I am very fertile, and having married at 19, I may well have had 20 or so children with no birth control. I had three children and got pregnant immedialty with each of them. Quite enough for me with a very small  house, small car and not very large income.

You cant have it both ways, if you believe that Birth Control is wrong, then even that method you mention is wrong because they are preventing babies by avoiding certian times of the month.

[Adamski]

NFP is not first and foremost birth control as it is self control. With artificial contraception couples can treat each other like sex objects with no compunction. With NFP couples have to take one another's health and ability to procreate into account. It's much more than merely spacing children, although it does that. It's regarding each other in a self-sacrificing way instead of making sex the object of a relationship instead of true intimacy of persons.

Above is the answer I just got from catholic.com

[chosenone]

NFP is not first and foremost birth control as it is self control. With artificial contraception couples can treat each other like sex objects with no compunction. With NFP couples have to take one another's health and ability to procreate into account. It's much more than merely spacing children, although it does that. It's regarding each other in a self-sacrificing way instead of making sex the object of a relationship instead of true intimacy of persons.

Above is the answer I just got from catholic.com

OK well I disagree with catholic.com
Sex in marriage is godly, good and beneficial, and the other spouse should always be considered in sex(and they are in all good marriages).
Of course what you suggested is birth control, otherwise why do it? IF it is sin to try and prevent babies then why is that ok?

[Adamski]

My point is gods word doesn't change because on the cross Jesus said

"it is finished"

The catholic and orthodox church which are decended from the apostles as in acts one follow his teachings literally (yes orthodox only endorse nfp also according to OCA.org)

Protestism has changed gods word with endorcimg birth control and know gay do called marriage and abortion in places like the elca, episcopalian, pcoa, and so forth


All Protestants thought birth control was a sin before 1930 labath Anglican conference which was the first

[Catholica]

Adamski, your research is faulty.  The Orthodox also allow for artificial birth control. 

Before 1930, all denominations not only did not allow for artificial birth control, but they called using it a sin.  Now somehow it is not a sin to them.

Chosenone, we do not "all agree that we have quite enough people in the world".  The question is, why do you believe that?

I agree that there are too many people on this planet.  We are teetering on a population that the earth cannot sustain.  This has led to starvation of millions, and agricultural/livestock activities that do not lend themselves to what I would label good stewardship of the land and animals God has given us.

How do you know?

People have been saying the same thing for a hundred years: we are not going to have enough food.  It's simply not true.  God has provided means to increase food production that has outstripped our world's need.  God will always provide.

The reason people starve today in the world is not because there is not enough food but (mainly) because there are corrupt governments who intercept food aid to the people who need it.  There is actually plenty of food to feed everyone on Earth. 

The problem will never be that there are too many people.  The contraceptive mentality has led us to believe that we are in control, and that God is not.  Take a look at the facts.  There is plenty of food.

Food: There's Lots Of It

[DaveW]

The problem will never be that there are too many people.

That is simply not true.  Unless we find another planet to populate. There have been examples after examples of lab tests on all kinds of mammals and once a given space reaches a certain density of population, it goes down of its own accord to ZERO. Extinction.

Here is the story of one such experiment:

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/42/wiles.php

[chosenone]

My point is gods word doesn't change because on the cross Jesus said

"it is finished"

The catholic and orthodox church which are decended from the apostles as in acts one follow his teachings literally (yes orthodox only endorse nfp also according to OCA.org)

Protestism has changed gods word with endorcimg birth control and know gay do called marriage and abortion in places like the elca, episcopalian, pcoa, and so forth


All Protestants thought birth control was a sin before 1930 labath Anglican conference which was the first

There is only one true church, and that is the world wide church of the family of God, which consists of all of His children. I dont think you can quote the RC or orthodox churches for anything, they do not have a good track record of keeping to Gods word.
Having a small number of children that you can adequatly care for it not only sensible and good, it is thinking of the world around you as well as yourself. It is being responsible.

Maybe those of you who dont think we need to limit the population need to go to other countries in the world and get your eyes opened. Even in the UK we are overcrowded and the services such as the hospitals and schools are stretched to breaking point in some areas.
We would be delighted if our population went down.

Besides that RC's use birth control anyway. The RC's who I know have very small families. SO whatever the pope says, they are not listening.

[Catholica]

The problem will never be that there are too many people.

That is simply not true.  Unless we find another planet to populate. There have been examples after examples of lab tests on all kinds of mammals and once a given space reaches a certain density of population, it goes down of its own accord to ZERO. Extinction.

Here is the story of one such experiment:

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/42/wiles.php

What you are saying doesn't really argue against what I said.  First of all humans are not animals, and second of all, are you saying that "zero" is too many people?

Seriously people, do we trust in God's providence, or don't we?  Will human efforts to populate the earth mean that the gates of hell prevail against the church?  Laughable. 

[DaveW]

No - not that zero is too many; just that if we reach a certain level of overcrowding, we will start heading for zero.

As to whether we are or are not animals; we are a lot more animal than we are plant or virus.

[Catholica]

No - not that zero is too many; just that if we reach a certain level of overcrowding, we will start heading for zero.

There are a couple of variables here.  One is, that people are rational creatures, so is the experiment valid?  And if the experiment is valid, then what truly is that level, and are we anywhere near it?  We are nowhere near the situation the mice were in.  The entire population of the earth could fit with 100 sq. feet per individual into the state of Texas.  I did some math and if we used the entire land area of the Earth, we could reach 16 trillion population and still have 100 sq. feet per person, still not be physically rubbing against people constantly.

As to whether we are or are not animals; we are a lot more animal than we are plant or virus.

By that reasoning, people are plants, because we are a lot more like plants than we are like minerals.

Being more like one thing than another does not make us that thing.  Being a lot "more" animal does not mean that we are animals.  We are not animals, we have a rational soul and they do not.  Our rational soul makes us more unpredictable than any experiment can simulate.

[chosenone]

Where does the Bible say that we must have multitudes of children? Many of the people in the Bible only had a couple. Abraham only had one, in marriage, and one outside marriage. God could easily have given him loads and loads. Noah only had three sons. Our job of populating the earth happened long ago, we are now in need of lowering the population drastically.
The popes instructions have led to much poverty and hunger and death and sickness in those countries when they still listen to Him. Of course neither he nor his fellow RC leaders have a clue about real life and poverty and hunger and living in a tin hut with sewage running down the street. They live in their palaces of jewels and have never been married or had children or lived in the real world.

[Catholica]

Where does the Bible say that we must have multitudes of children? Many of the people in the Bible only had a couple. Abraham only had one, in marriage, and one outside marriage. God could easily have given him loads and loads. Noah only had three sons. Our job of populating the earth happened long ago, we are now in need of lowering the population drastically.
The popes instructions have led to much poverty and hunger and death and sickness in those countries when they still listen to Him. Of course neither he nor his fellow RC leaders have a clue about real life and poverty and hunger and living in a tin hut with sewage running down the street. They live in their palaces of jewels and have never been married or had children or lived in the real world.

It's laborious to respond to such hate, especially coming from the mouth of a professing "Christian".

Here are the facts:

1) When people perform the marital act, the natural result is that children sometimes come forth.  Who created nature?  Was it not God?  The procreation of children is a direct result of the marital act.  Natural law demonstrates it so.  Therefore it is in God's order that the marital act at certain times can produce children.

2) We are not now in need of lowering the population drastically.  People just have decided that they would like there to be less people for their own comfort.  There is no particular need right now to lower the population.  The world still has plenty of resources, and will have for the foreseeable future.

3) Demonstrate how the pope's instructions have led to much poverty and hunger and death and sickness.  The Church's teaching does not force people to have lots of children.  The Church's teaching is clear that couples can avoid conceiving naturally, whether by abstinence or NFP, if they have a grave reason for doing so.  The Church provides plenty of counsel on what constitutes a grave reason.  So please, back up your preposterous hateful claim that the "popes instructions have led to much poverty and hunger and death and sickness".

[DaveW]

Abraham only had one, in marriage, and one outside marriage.

Gen 25.1   Now Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah.
2 She bore to him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Ishbak and Shuah.

6 but to the sons of his concubines, [more than just Hagar] Abraham gave gifts while he was still living, and sent them away from his son Isaac eastward, to the land of the east.

[Adamski]

Nfp is 95% effective that is the same rate at the pill

[chosenone]

Where does the Bible say that we must have multitudes of children? Many of the people in the Bible only had a couple. Abraham only had one, in marriage, and one outside marriage. God could easily have given him loads and loads. Noah only had three sons. Our job of populating the earth happened long ago, we are now in need of lowering the population drastically.
The popes instructions have led to much poverty and hunger and death and sickness in those countries when they still listen to Him. Of course neither he nor his fellow RC leaders have a clue about real life and poverty and hunger and living in a tin hut with sewage running down the street. They live in their palaces of jewels and have never been married or had children or lived in the real world.

It's laborious to respond to such hate, especially coming from the mouth of a professing "Christian".

Here are the facts:

1) When people perform the marital act, the natural result is that children sometimes come forth.  Who created nature?  Was it not God?  The procreation of children is a direct result of the marital act.  Natural law demonstrates it so.  Therefore it is in God's order that the marital act at certain times can produce children.

2) We are not now in need of lowering the population drastically.  People just have decided that they would like there to be less people for their own comfort.  There is no particular need right now to lower the population.  The world still has plenty of resources, and will have for the foreseeable future.

3) Demonstrate how the pope's instructions have led to much poverty and hunger and death and sickness.  The Church's teaching does not force people to have lots of children.  The Church's teaching is clear that couples can avoid conceiving naturally, whether by abstinence or NFP, if they have a grave reason for doing so.  The Church provides plenty of counsel on what constitutes a grave reason.  So please, back up your preposterous hateful claim that the "popes instructions have led to much poverty and hunger and death and sickness".

I disagree with all your points, and just because you may live in a place that isnt over crowded, many of the worlds population do.

Of course the popes teaching makes the situation worse, people having far too many children they cant cope with or feed or clothe.

If you are determined that conception must be a possibility, then how can you justify any attempts to stop that, even by so called 'natural' means?
Oh and by the way, abstinance isnt Biblical. God clearly says that we are not to deprive each other of sex.

I thank God that we can prayerfully and carefully and sensibly decide the number of children that we have now. Its such a blessing. Its not all about US, but about being responsible citizens of the world we live in, thinking of others as well as ourselves.

[Adamski]

Fact

--at the current rate Europe's population will be cut in half in 50 years