Preterism, a step by step explanation

[Stucky]

It would be helpful, Stucky, if you refrained from off topic postings that swell the numbers but contribute nothing to the thread.

Would you care to explain your first sarcastic remark and also explain how this doesnt apply to you and the other users?  How is what you posted after your sarcastic remark "on topic" and mine, which was in response to Jarrod's, off topic?  Do you have the nerve to tell Jarrod the same thing or just me?  Such hypocricy.

Stucky:
Jarrod,
Are you familiar with the principal of hermaneutics?  The term hermeneutics covers both the first order art and the second order theory of understanding and interpretation of linguistic and non-linguistic expressions.

You own reply to Jarrod began with a condescending & sacastic remark.

Jarrod made a relevant comment, with an example, it did not need a reply. It was rhetorical.

While your reply was an answer to his point, it was off-topic.

You take my question to him as sarcastic?  Well, arent you the thin skinned little one.  I simply asked him a question.  Maybe he doesnt understand the principal of hermaneutics, many dont. and hermaneutics is very relevant to my interpretations of scripture. Just because your opinion is that his comment was rhetorical doesnt make it rhetorical.  You are just attempting to impose your opinions on others again.  Again, it is your opinion that my response was off-topic but, in my opinion you are completely wrong.

[ChessMaster]

An auxillary army of 200 million

http://aoreport.com/ao/prophecy-studies-mainmenu-47/archived-studies-mainmenu-64/272-the-myth-of-the-200-million-man-army-of-the-kings-of-the-east

Your "200 million man army" is a myth and is - again - the result of an utterly absurd translation. Read the link.

You said that the 200 million man army is a myth??  Well let me inform you Storm it is in the bible.  Revelation 9:16.  Now i agree that is a rather large number but have you ever heard of China? or how about India?  200 million is not exactly out of the realm of possibility.  I wonder how much of the scriptures you refer to as myth when it contradicts your beliefs?lol

[ChessMaster]

Hmm.  You know Coventanter i may just be a "partial preterists" as you call it.  I, believe that Jesus is coming back literally as scripture teaches to set up his kingdom on Earth.  I reject Dispensationalism, Pre-trib. escape, and the modern Zionsists state of Israel.  Does that make me a "partial preterists"?

We have a basic agreement on the final coming of our Lord.

I presume from what you have written elsewhere that you believe in a continuous-historical interpretation of NT prophecy, particularly Revelation. Most accept Irenaeus' account as indicating that John had his visions in the 90s. They see the seal/trumpet/vial judgements as occurring throughout history & intensifying towards the end; also they see the Papacy as the great Roman antichrist.

It's a position I believed & taught for many years - even preached through Revelation with that understanding, but the questions I had needed answering. Further study & internet searches led to my present understanding.

The Olivet prophecy - up to "this generation" leads to ad 70;
Revelation was written before ad 70;
ethnic Israel lost all significance with their rejection, first of their Messiah, then the Apostolic Gospel - Israel is now the Church, comprising both Jew & Gentile believers, one redeemed people of God in Christ;
events in the Middle East ar without prophetic significance;
there will not be a prophesied rebuilt temple - even if one is built, it will be of no prophetic significance;
there are no "end-times" warning signs to indicate Jesus imminent return.

That, of course, gives further challenges:
What of 2 Thes. 2?
How can most of the Revelation prophecies be explained as having been fulfilled in ad 70?
How did Jesus come in ad 70?

This thread can run & run.....

I see no reason to not believe that Revelation was written by John in the 90s.  To make the claim that all the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled by 70 AD, i think is rather foolish when one reads some of the details of the prophecies.  So i guess i am not a "partial preterists" after all.      

There's a very logical reason (besides many others)  why Revelation wasn't written in AD95.  If so, why didn't John, a Hebrew, record the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 as a past fact instead of a soon to take place prophecy?

Please don't discuss logic.  Full preterist should avoid that word all together. lol  So because John didn't say anything about the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 is why you think Revelation was not written in the 90s?  What about the verses in Revelation that deals with prophecy on a global scale?  To say that all the prophecies of Revelation were only dealing with Jerusalem in AD70 is #1 idtiotic  or #2 not taking the book of Revelation very serious.

What "global scale?" reference is that?

Are you serious?  I mean really are you serious?   Okay....when i say global scale i am talking about the prophecies in the book of Revelation that used terms like "nations" or "all people of the Earth" or "kings of the East"...this is just off the top of my head i don't have the time at this moment to dig up verses but if you like i can do that for you later Lehigh.  These terms imply a much larger scale than just Jerusalem or Palestine...but hey if you just ignore those references then you don't have to worry about them.lol

Of course I'm serious. Now, "kings of the east " were the auxiliary armies of Titus that came to the siege. I already explained Rev.16:12 in another thread in end-times.
As far as "nations" well, you are going to have to be more specific- bc God sometimes refers to Israel as many "nations" and sometimes "nations" describes gentile nations. So, be specific to which verse and passage in question. "all the people of the Earth" is most likely interpreted- the "land." So, once again, you have to be seriously specific to know which verse and context you mention.
Revelation is a book of "7s" It is the same catastrophe for the Jews, just with different feature and characters along the way.

Here is just a few specific verses for you Lehigh.  Revelation 9:18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.  I take that literally.  Revelation 11:9-10  Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
10 And those who dwell on the Earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these Two Prophets tormented those who dwell on the Earth.  Once again i take this literally.  John refers to peoples and tribes and tongues and nations and those who dwell on the Earth...now i know this may be hard for you to accept but anyone of just a little common sense can see this clearly is a reference to something much broader and larger than Palestine in 70 AD. Is this enough verses or would you like some more? 

You made some good points there Grappler...i noticed they didn't respond.lol

[Covenanter]

An auxillary army of 200 million

http://aoreport.com/ao/prophecy-studies-mainmenu-47/archived-studies-mainmenu-64/272-the-myth-of-the-200-million-man-army-of-the-kings-of-the-east

Your "200 million man army" is a myth and is - again - the result of an utterly absurd translation. Read the link.

You said that the 200 million man army is a myth??  Well let me inform you Storm it is in the bible.  Revelation 9:16.  Now i agree that is a rather large number but have you ever heard of China? or how about India?  200 million is not exactly out of the realm of possibility.  I wonder how much of the scriptures you refer to as myth when it contradicts your beliefs?lol

See my post at the top of the page:
"There has been some discussion about a Preterist interpretation of the 200 million army. Read Joel - the army is a plague of locusts. 200 million is not an exaggeration. "  But it seems most of my posts are in invisible ink. 

Welcome Chessmaster. I used to play chess at a high standard. I gave up during my student days, & falling in love, marriage & raising a family became incompatible with chess. Also chess is played in the mind, & I lost sleep playing through games, analysing them in my mind, etc. I could play "blindfold" chess so could play games during quiet periods, such as during sermons. 

I came to Christ just before going to university, & was baptised in my first term. I felt that the intensity of study required to excel in chess would distract both from studies & Christian service.

[Covenanter]

Here is just a few specific verses for you Lehigh.  Revelation 9:18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.  I take that literally.  Revelation 11:9-10  Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
10 And those who dwell on the Earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these Two Prophets tormented those who dwell on the Earth.  Once again i take this literally.  John refers to peoples and tribes and tongues and nations and those who dwell on the Earth...now i know this may be hard for you to accept but anyone of just a little common sense can see this clearly is a reference to something much broader and larger than Palestine in 70 AD. Is this enough verses or would you like some more? 

You made some good points there Grappler...i noticed they didn't respond.lol

Note that in 9:18 the KJV reads "men" not "mankind." Interpretive translation to force a meaning, & selection of a version that supports your interpretation is not a convincing way of proving a point. The Gk is ἀνθρώπων normally translated "man" or "men." Also v. 15. Killing 1/3 of the Jewish rebels by Roman armies & natural forces (200 million locusts) is dreadful, but is within a "common sense" understanding.

Rev. 11 begins with the earthly temple of God, & continues with the destruction of Jerusalem, & ends the recognition of the heavenly temple of God. A literal, "common sense" reading leads to ad 70. The contextual arguments for ad 70 make the catastrophic judgment of the once holy city the subject of the passage. Precise interpretation of the details is not straightforward (!) & depends on the paradigm adopted.

I'll stop there for now, but you will see that the "anti-preterist" proof texts are unconvincing.

[ChessMaster]

An auxillary army of 200 million

http://aoreport.com/ao/prophecy-studies-mainmenu-47/archived-studies-mainmenu-64/272-the-myth-of-the-200-million-man-army-of-the-kings-of-the-east

Your "200 million man army" is a myth and is - again - the result of an utterly absurd translation. Read the link.

You said that the 200 million man army is a myth??  Well let me inform you Storm it is in the bible.  Revelation 9:16.  Now i agree that is a rather large number but have you ever heard of China? or how about India?  200 million is not exactly out of the realm of possibility.  I wonder how much of the scriptures you refer to as myth when it contradicts your beliefs?lol

See my post at the top of the page:
"There has been some discussion about a Preterist interpretation of the 200 million army. Read Joel - the army is a plague of locusts. 200 million is not an exaggeration. "  But it seems most of my posts are in invisible ink. 

Welcome Chessmaster. I used to play chess at a high standard. I gave up during my student days, & falling in love, marriage & raising a family became incompatible with chess. Also chess is played in the mind, & I lost sleep playing through games, analysing them in my mind, etc. I could play "blindfold" chess so could play games during quiet periods, such as during sermons. 

I came to Christ just before going to university, & was baptised in my first term. I felt that the intensity of study required to excel in chess would distract both from studies & Christian service.

Hello Covenant.  I never took chess as serious as you did.lol  I went through a few years of playing some random tournaments and then stopped but now i play alot of on-line chess...usually 5 minute games. 

[ChessMaster]

Here is just a few specific verses for you Lehigh.  Revelation 9:18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.  I take that literally.  Revelation 11:9-10  Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
10 And those who dwell on the Earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these Two Prophets tormented those who dwell on the Earth.  Once again i take this literally.  John refers to peoples and tribes and tongues and nations and those who dwell on the Earth...now i know this may be hard for you to accept but anyone of just a little common sense can see this clearly is a reference to something much broader and larger than Palestine in 70 AD. Is this enough verses or would you like some more? 

You made some good points there Grappler...i noticed they didn't respond.lol

Note that in 9:18 the KJV reads "men" not "mankind." Interpretive translation to force a meaning, & selection of a version that supports your interpretation is not a convincing way of proving a point. The Gk is ἀνθρώπων normally translated "man" or "men." Also v. 15. Killing 1/3 of the Jewish rebels by Roman armies & natural forces (200 million locusts) is dreadful, but is within a "common sense" understanding.

Rev. 11 begins with the earthly temple of God, & continues with the destruction of Jerusalem, & ends the recognition of the heavenly temple of God. A literal, "common sense" reading leads to ad 70. The contextual arguments for ad 70 make the catastrophic judgment of the once holy city the subject of the passage. Precise interpretation of the details is not straightforward (!) & depends on the paradigm adopted.

I'll stop there for now, but you will see that the "anti-preterist" proof texts are unconvincing.

Cove...in reference to Rev.9:18  the ESV which is the bible i use and a much better translation than the outdated KJV the word
"mankind" is used not men.  Ever hear of RC Sprouls?   I am sure you have.   R C Sprouls who is a big proponent of preterism supports the ESV.  As for Rev. 11 you will have to do a little better than that to convince me that everything in Revelation happened by 70 AD...since when does nations, tribes, and tongues = the small geographical area of Palestine?  Oh by the way i have some more things in Revelation to talk about with you or any other preterists also...we are just getting started.

[Covenanter]

Cove...in reference to Rev.9:18  the ESV which is the bible i use and a much better translation than the outdated KJV the word
"mankind" is used not men.  Ever hear of RC Sprouls?   I am sure you have.   R C Sprouls who is a big proponent of preterism supports the ESV.  As for Rev. 11 you will have to do a little better than that to convince me that everything in Revelation happened by 70 AD...since when does nations, tribes, and tongues = the small geographical area of Palestine?  Oh by the way i have some more things in Revelation to talk about with you or any other preterists also...we are just getting started.

Sproul's preference for the ESV does not guarantee the accuracy of the translation. My preference is actually for the NIV, but I would not argue a doctrine based on a translation of a key word. I use the Blue Letter Bible for access to Strong's numbering. That shows how every Greek word is used throughout the NT - often a key word is translated differently in different contexts. It also shows that a single English word can be the translation of several Greek words. e.g. in Mat. 24, the 3 occurrences of "world" are the translation of 3 different Gk words. "World" does not always mean the planet.

since when does nations, tribes, and tongues = the small geographical area of Palestine?

Rev. 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, ESV

That indicates that the defenders & possible attackers will include representatives from "some of the peoples..." rather than a global event. That is corroborated by Josephus & others who reported the war.

Can you deny that a simple reading of Rev. 11 predicts the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem, as prophesied by Jesus? And that the 200 million army in Rev. 9 refers to locusts? See the plague of God's army of locusts in Joel, & the allusion to princes as locusts in Nahum.

Joel 2:1 Blow a trumpet in Zion;
    sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,
2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.
3 Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
    but behind them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
    and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots, they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army drawn up for battle.

2:25 I will restore [fn] to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent among you.

The allusion needs no further comment.

As for Rev. 11 you will have to do a little better than that to convince me that everything in Revelation happened by 70 AD

I have not made that assertion. I do look for a NH&NE when the Lord Jesus returns for the general resurrection & final judgement.

Hello Covenanter.  I never took chess as serious as you did.lol  I went through a few years of playing some random tournaments and then stopped but now i play alot of on-line chess...usually 5 minute games.

Perhaps we can play a 5 minute internet game.

My last match game about 35 years ago - at an all-London tournament against a regular club player - went like this: (I was black)
1. P-K4, P-K4
2. P-KB4, P-Q4
3. KPxP, P-K5
4. Kt-QB3, Kt-KB3
5. B-Kt5 ch, P-QB3
6. PxQBP, PxQBP
7. B-R4, B-R3
8. KKt-K2, B-B4
9. Kt-Kt3, What was my winning move?
White Resigns

My wife was unwell & I dropped out of the tournament at the next round. 

[Covenanter]

Who or what do we understand by the two witnesses In Rev. 11? We have to remember that Revelation is in the Bible, to be understand by context & cross references, & is not a "stand alone" end times manual. We can see the witnesses also in Zechariah. Zerubbabel is in David's kingly line, & he is leading the rebuilding of the temple. The temple building will be perfectly built by Jesus, THE king in David's line. Direct allusions with Rev. 11 are not obvious, there's plenty of scope for further study.

Their characteristics point to Moses & Elijah, the witnesses to the transfiguration, & the witnesses against the rich man of the parable:
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Also: John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

We have already seen that Rev. 11 relates to the ad 70 destruction. We know also that in his grace, the Lord allowed the remaining life-span of this generation as time to repent. We also know that many thousands of Jews did repent, only to suffer rejection by the Jewish leaders.

In his speech before the Sanhedrin, Stephen calls Moses & the prophets to witness against his accusers. Acts 7. In killing Stephen, they sought to kill the witnesses of the Word the Law (Moses) & the Prophets (Elijah.)

The Jews invoked Moses in their persecutions of Paul. e.g. Acts 18:13 Saying, This [fellow] persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law. They repeated used their interpretation of the Law against Jesus.

Is the death of the witnesses an attempt to cancel the authority of the Word - an attempt by antichrist to establish his authority above God? (See 2 Thes. 2) But they CANNOT silence the Word of God. They silenced the Son of God by the cross, & he rose triumphant, vindicated. His Olivet prophecy of the destruction is fast becoming vindicated as Revelation proceeds. Their attempt to silence the Word hastens their own destruction.

I won't try a detailed interpretation of the whole chapter, but I will suggest that until ad 70, the Kingdom of God had a physical centre - the Jerusalem temple of God with the physical descendants of Abraham, & a spiritual centre - Christ & his redeemed people Israel. With the destruction, all ambiguity ended, so that 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

That fulfills Jesus word to the Samaritan woman: 19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[notreligus]

Stucky, and others who seem to be having trouble understanding this - this thread is for preterists to explain their beliefs. It is not the place to tell them how wrong they are.

You must clarify something.

If what you say is true then this entire discussion board has no purpose except for everyone working in the same office to stop by the water cooler and share the office gossip. 

I posted at the CARM forum for over six years and was a contributing member.  I left there because the owner of that forum is personally intrusive and even "private messages" are monitored there.  Just mention his name in a message and you'll hear from him personally.  I don't like that sort of atmosphere where a moderator or a board owner tries to dictate what is discussed at what appears to be an apologetics forum.   If only people of the same ilk are allowed here, then that means you will allow them to discuss others but others can't discuss them.  That seems unfair and renders this board useless, IMHO. 

[notreligus]

Are you Preterists able to defend your beliefs, or do you want it to be written into law that you have a superior theological position that cannot be questioned?  I've just started looking at this forum and right away I have the impression that you folk have some elitist attitude.  That should not be. 

[Stucky]

Are you Preterists able to defend your beliefs, or do you want it to be written into law that you have a superior theological position that cannot be questioned?  I've just started looking at this forum and right away I have the impression that you folk have some elitist attitude.  That should not be.

   

Here, here, give this man a cigar.  Exactly what I have been saying since I came to this bulletin board forum.   

This person is not a preterist but see how their elitism just oozes out of their statement.   Why cant they just talk normal?

"listen and be told,probably for the first time in spite of the fact that the Catechism at CCC 282 states that Catechesis on creation is of major importance most Catholics do not know  the Catholic doctrine of Creation or that CCC 327 states that it is "simul et ex nihilo"and Lateran IV,Council of Cologne and Vatican I add and clarify and define as follows "in the beginning,in an instant,in each of six by 24hr days,out of nothing God created everything very good in all its parts = complete = no millions of evolution necessary or possible[including Evolution by God[Theistic evolution] = to accept or teach 'Origins Evolution' is forbidden and anathema to and for Catholics = come home now,and all will be forgiven - twinc"

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Ahhh...ok so we are back to picking and choosing what parts of the bible are fact and which are fiction.lol

To be fair, everyone picks and chooses which part of the Bible they think are figurative or symbolic.

For example, Ezekiel 28 says that the king of Tyrus was the cherub that protected the garden of Eden against Adam and Eve returning there.  Literal or Figurative?  Can a man be a cherub?

Jarrod

Jarrod,

Are you familiar with the principal of hermaneutics?  The term hermeneutics covers both the first order art and the second order theory of understanding and interpretation of linguistic and non-linguistic expressions.

Ezekiel 28
If this passage were referring exclusively to the ruler of Tyre, then you would certainly have to say that it is a case of imagery and even overstatement.

•Could Ezekiel actually have had the "ruler" in mind when he described him as being "perfect and blameless" in all his ways? The doctrine of original sin is muddled when one considers that the "king of Tyre" is said to have been "blameless from the day he was created." In contrast to that statement, King David wrote "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5) Satan was sinless when he was created, but that could not be said of any earthly ruler, not even King David.
•It is said that the King of Tyre was 'created' instead of 'born.' If the word 'born' had been used it would certainly have ruled out Satan, but that is not the case.
•The ruler of Tyre could not have been in the Garden of Eden. Satan was.
•It seems strange that the king is described as being adorned with 'every precious stone.' Did he really have such wealth? If this were referring to a king, it would seem to be exaggeration.
•The king was called a "guardian cherub." This would make it the only instance in the Old Testament where that word was used in reference to a human. That seems unlikely when you study how the word 'cherub' is used in other contexts.
•At one time, the "king of Tyre" would have been in close fellowship with God, for it is said that he walked on the 'holy mount of God.' Obviously this could not have been the case; it would have to be imagery. The 'holy mount of God' is a direct reference to God's throne. On the other hand 'cherubs' are associated with closeness to God, as demonstrated in the construction of the 'Ark of the Covenant.' "The cherubim (pl. of cherub) were the "inner circle" of angels who had the closest access to God and guarded his holiness. "

There can be no reasonable doubt that the ruler of Tyre is not the only person being referred to here. On the other hand, it is quite reasonable to believe that the passage is referring to the ruling power behind the ruler of Tyre's actions.

It should be noted that addressing Satan through a human being is consistent with another passage in scripture. In Matthew 16:23 we see that "Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." Jesus was talking at Peter, but directing his comments to Satan. Reading the passage carefully it is hard to determine just which part of the sentence was for Peter and which part was for Satan. (One feels the same uncertainty at times in Isaiah and Ezekiel.) Whichever the case, Peter got an earful, and Satan-the ruling power behind Peter's foolish words-was put in his place. In the same way, the ruler of Tyre would have been warned, and Satan-the ruling power behind his reign-would have been exposed.

Wow, uber-long post.

I'm familiar with hermeneutics, although I'm not sure which hermeneutic principle you're referring to?  There's several different hermeneutic paradigms.  Analytical/Grammatical seems to be the most popular among conservative Bible scholars, but Historical/Grammatical seems to be favored more by preterists, which is the forum I'm in (I think).

As for Ezekiel versus early Genesis... it probably deserves it's own thread if we're going to go into detail.

For my purposes here, I only brought it up as an example of a place where two Scriptures can only be reconciled if one of them is partly figurative.  What I mean is you can't hold that Genesis is 100% literal and that Ezekiel is 100% literal at the same time.

If Genesis is completely literal, then either the king of Tyrus is a type of Satan or a pseudonym for him.
If Ezekiel is fully literal, then the trees in Genesis figure kingdoms, and the guardian angel there figures the king of Tyrus.

Final point is just that everybody does pick/choose what parts they think aren't completely literal.  And also that it's pretty clear that some parts are NOT completely literal.

Jarrod

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Are you Preterists able to defend your beliefs, or do you want it to be written into law that you have a superior theological position that cannot be questioned?  I've just started looking at this forum and right away I have the impression that you folk have some elitist attitude.  That should not be.

Unfortunately, this is probably true to some degree about every forum here.  And probably most churches as well.  And yes it applies in this forum.

I think the point Never was making is that this thread (not this whole forum) is for preterists to explain their beliefs and answer elementary questions.  Not to sit under inquisition.

If there's a particular point you want to prosecute, you might make your own thread in this forum.  If you have a simple "what do you believe" kind of question, then this is the place for it.

Jarrod

[ChessMaster]

Cove...in reference to Rev.9:18  the ESV which is the bible i use and a much better translation than the outdated KJV the word
"mankind" is used not men.  Ever hear of RC Sprouls?   I am sure you have.   R C Sprouls who is a big proponent of preterism supports the ESV.  As for Rev. 11 you will have to do a little better than that to convince me that everything in Revelation happened by 70 AD...since when does nations, tribes, and tongues = the small geographical area of Palestine?  Oh by the way i have some more things in Revelation to talk about with you or any other preterists also...we are just getting started.

Sproul's preference for the ESV does not guarantee the accuracy of the translation. My preference is actually for the NIV, but I would not argue a doctrine based on a translation of a key word. I use the Blue Letter Bible for access to Strong's numbering. That shows how every Greek word is used throughout the NT - often a key word is translated differently in different contexts. It also shows that a single English word can be the translation of several Greek words. e.g. in Mat. 24, the 3 occurrences of "world" are the translation of 3 different Gk words. "World" does not always mean the planet.

since when does nations, tribes, and tongues = the small geographical area of Palestine?

Rev. 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, ESV

That indicates that the defenders & possible attackers will include representatives from "some of the peoples..." rather than a global event. That is corroborated by Josephus & others who reported the war.

Can you deny that a simple reading of Rev. 11 predicts the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem, as prophesied by Jesus? And that the 200 million army in Rev. 9 refers to locusts? See the plague of God's army of locusts in Joel, & the allusion to princes as locusts in Nahum.

Joel 2:1 Blow a trumpet in Zion;
    sound an alarm on my holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,
2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.
3 Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
    but behind them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
    and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots, they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army drawn up for battle.

2:25 I will restore [fn] to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent among you.

The allusion needs no further comment.

As for Rev. 11 you will have to do a little better than that to convince me that everything in Revelation happened by 70 AD

I have not made that assertion. I do look for a NH&NE when the Lord Jesus returns for the general resurrection & final judgement.

Hello Covenanter.  I never took chess as serious as you did.lol  I went through a few years of playing some random tournaments and then stopped but now i play alot of on-line chess...usually 5 minute games.

Perhaps we can play a 5 minute internet game.

My last match game about 35 years ago - at an all-London tournament against a regular club player - went like this: (I was black)
1. P-K4, P-K4
2. P-KB4, P-Q4
3. KPxP, P-K5
4. Kt-QB3, Kt-KB3
5. B-Kt5 ch, P-QB3
6. PxQBP, PxQBP
7. B-R4, B-R3
8. KKt-K2, B-B4
9. Kt-Kt3, What was my winning move?
White Resigns

My wife was unwell & I dropped out of the tournament at the next round.

The NIV uses the word "mankind" as well.  I will go with mankind on this one.  If Revelation 11 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD who were the two witnesses?  So you are looking for the coming of Jesus as well?  So what do you think of those people who claim that he came in 70 AD? 

[Covenanter]

Chessmaster:
If Revelation 11 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD who were the two witnesses?  So you are looking for the coming of Jesus as well?  So what do you think of those people who claim that he came in 70 AD?

Thank you for explaining NH&NE to Stucky.

My post #78 above explains the two witnesses as the Law & Prophets.

There is an earlier post of mine explaining Jesus coming in ad 70. It's #9 on the first page of this thread.

Briefly:
Luke 20:....
13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

In that sense, Jesus came in ad 70.

And what was my winning move?

[ChessMaster]

Chessmaster:
If Revelation 11 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD who were the two witnesses?  So you are looking for the coming of Jesus as well?  So what do you think of those people who claim that he came in 70 AD?

Thank you for explaining NH&NE to Stucky.

My post #78 above explains the two witnesses as the Law & Prophets.

There is an earlier post of mine explaining Jesus coming in ad 70. It's #9 on the first page of this thread.

Briefly:
Luke 20:....
13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

In that sense, Jesus came in ad 70.

And what was my winning move?

Lol..sorry Cove not into chess at the moment...check out chesscube it is a great site that you can play people from around the world including me if you like.  I am also sorry to say that i don't buy your explaination of the two witness nor this strange idea that Jesus came back in 70 AD.  Acts chapter 1 where the two angels explain that Jesus is going to come back literally means that he is going to come back literally.  What is your explaination of the prophecies in Revelation that deal with the mark of the beast and how all must take this mark in order to buy and sell?  This indicates a one world economic system.  Are you aware of how the powers that be are driving us towards that now?

[Lehigh]

QUESTION: According to preterists, who are the two witnesses? Please be more specific than answers I have received in the past.

ANSWER: I don't think there is a consensus among preterists as to who "the two witnesses" were. I personally believe the "two witnesses" were symbolic of the Church in the last days. Here are seven reasons why I believe this:

1. God gave His "two witnesses" authority to lock up heaven so that there would be no rain while they prophesied, to turn the waters into blood and to smite the Land with every calamity. (Rev. 11:6)

These judgments against Israel were the judgments of the saints, apostles and prophets, in Rev. 18:20. In Rev. 16:2-12 these judgments were "poured out" on the wicked by means of the Church (in the symbol of the "seven angels"). Compare Rev. 15:6 and Rev. 19:8,14; and compare Rev. 21:9 and Rev. 22:8,9.

Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

2. Fire came out of the mouth of the "two witnesses," and it devoured their enemies. (Rev. 11:5)

This symbol was taken from Jer. 5:14:

    "...Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it will consume them."

The prophetic words of the Church consumed the people in the Last Days, just as the prophetic words of Jeremiah consumed the people in his day.

Utterance and wisdom was "given" to believers that none of their enemies were able to resist or refute. (Matt. 10:19-20; Mk. 13:11; Lk. 21:15)

3. No one could harm the two witnesses. (Rev. 11:5) In Lk. 10:19, Jesus gave believers "authority" to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, so that nothing could injure them.

4. The two witnesses were the "two olive trees and the two lampstands." (Rev. 11:4)

In Zech. 3-4, these symbols represented Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the king. In the New Testament, the Church is God's "kingdom and priesthood." (I Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6)

5. The beast made war with the two witnesses, conquered them and killed them. (Rev. 11:7)

This parallels Rev. 13:7-9, where the beast made war with the saints, conquered them and killed them.

6. The two prophets "stood on their feet" after "a breath of God" entered them, and they ascended into Heaven. In that very hour, their enemies became terrified and Jerusalem's downfall began. (Rev. 11:12-13)

This parallels Eze. 37, where the house of Israel was symbolized as "a valley of dry bones." The "breath of God" entered the slain of Israel and "they stood on their feet" and became a vast, conquering army. (Eze. 37:9-14)

The Church was persecuted and martyred, until God raised her up, when He came and paid back affliction to those Jews who were afflicting her. (I Thess. 2:14-16; 4:13-18; II Thess. 1:6-10; Rev. 6:10-17)

7. The peoples "rejoiced" and made merry and gave presents to one another when the two prophets (witnesses) who had prophesied in sackcloth were killed, (Rev. 11:3,9-10) but the two prophets were later raised up. (Rev. 11:12)

This is a reiteration of Jesus' words concerning the Church:

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned to joy." (Jn. 16:20).

I believe the symbol of the "two witnesses" is based on Deut. 17:6; Matt. 18:16:

    "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death....."

The prophetic witness of the Church against fleshly Israel was faithful and true.

    "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony [witness]. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all on account of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand." (Lk. 21:12-20)[/b]

[ChessMaster]

QUESTION: According to preterists, who are the two witnesses? Please be more specific than answers I have received in the past.

ANSWER: . Here are seven reasons why I believe this:

1. God gave His "two witnesses" authority to lock up heaven so that there would be no rain while they prophesied, to turn the waters into blood and to smite the Land with every calamity. (Rev. 11:6)

These judgments against Israel were the judgments of the saints, apostles and prophets, in Rev. 18:20. In Rev. 16:2-12 these judgments were "poured out" on the wicked by means of the Church (in the symbol of the "seven angels"). Compare Rev. 15:6 and Rev. 19:8,14; and compare Rev. 21:9 and Rev. 22:8,9.

Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

2. Fire came out of the mouth of the "two witnesses," and it devoured their enemies. (Rev. 11:5)

This symbol was taken from Jer. 5:14:

    "...Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it will consume them."

The prophetic words of the Church consumed the people in the Last Days, just as the prophetic words of Jeremiah consumed the people in his day.

Utterance and wisdom was "given" to believers that none of their enemies were able to resist or refute. (Matt. 10:19-20; Mk. 13:11; Lk. 21:15)

3. No one could harm the two witnesses. (Rev. 11:5) In Lk. 10:19, Jesus gave believers "authority" to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, so that nothing could injure them.

4. The two witnesses were the "two olive trees and the two lampstands." (Rev. 11:4)

In Zech. 3-4, these symbols represented Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the king. In the New Testament, the Church is God's "kingdom and priesthood." (I Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6)

5. The beast made war with the two witnesses, conquered them and killed them. (Rev. 11:7)

This parallels Rev. 13:7-9, where the beast made war with the saints, conquered them and killed them.

6. The two prophets "stood on their feet" after "a breath of God" entered them, and they ascended into Heaven. In that very hour, their enemies became terrified and Jerusalem's downfall began. (Rev. 11:12-13)

This parallels Eze. 37, where the house of Israel was symbolized as "a valley of dry bones." The "breath of God" entered the slain of Israel and "they stood on their feet" and became a vast, conquering army. (Eze. 37:9-14)

The Church was persecuted and martyred, until God raised her up, when He came and paid back affliction to those Jews who were afflicting her. (I Thess. 2:14-16; 4:13-18; II Thess. 1:6-10; Rev. 6:10-17)

7. The peoples "rejoiced" and made merry and gave presents to one another when the two prophets (witnesses) who had prophesied in sackcloth were killed, (Rev. 11:3,9-10) but the two prophets were later raised up. (Rev. 11:12)

This is a reiteration of Jesus' words concerning the Church:

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned to joy." (Jn. 16:20).

I believe the symbol of the "two witnesses" is based on Deut. 17:6; Matt. 18:16:

    "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death....."

The prophetic witness of the Church against fleshly Israel was faithful and true.

    "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony [witness]. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all on account of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand." (Lk. 21:12-20)[/b]

Lehigh you said... I don't think there is a consensus among preterists as to who "the two witnesses" were. I personally believe the "two witnesses" were symbolic of the Church in the last days.  Don't you mean ARE symbolic....??  Surely you are not suggesting that the last days have already occurred??lol  you are aren't you?  wow.  OK.  if the last days are now in the past...what are the days called that we are living in now?

[Lehigh]

QUESTION: According to preterists, who are the two witnesses? Please be more specific than answers I have received in the past.

ANSWER: . Here are seven reasons why I believe this:

1. God gave His "two witnesses" authority to lock up heaven so that there would be no rain while they prophesied, to turn the waters into blood and to smite the Land with every calamity. (Rev. 11:6)

These judgments against Israel were the judgments of the saints, apostles and prophets, in Rev. 18:20. In Rev. 16:2-12 these judgments were "poured out" on the wicked by means of the Church (in the symbol of the "seven angels"). Compare Rev. 15:6 and Rev. 19:8,14; and compare Rev. 21:9 and Rev. 22:8,9.

Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

2. Fire came out of the mouth of the "two witnesses," and it devoured their enemies. (Rev. 11:5)

This symbol was taken from Jer. 5:14:

    "...Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it will consume them."

The prophetic words of the Church consumed the people in the Last Days, just as the prophetic words of Jeremiah consumed the people in his day.

Utterance and wisdom was "given" to believers that none of their enemies were able to resist or refute. (Matt. 10:19-20; Mk. 13:11; Lk. 21:15)

3. No one could harm the two witnesses. (Rev. 11:5) In Lk. 10:19, Jesus gave believers "authority" to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, so that nothing could injure them.

4. The two witnesses were the "two olive trees and the two lampstands." (Rev. 11:4)

In Zech. 3-4, these symbols represented Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the king. In the New Testament, the Church is God's "kingdom and priesthood." (I Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6)

5. The beast made war with the two witnesses, conquered them and killed them. (Rev. 11:7)

This parallels Rev. 13:7-9, where the beast made war with the saints, conquered them and killed them.

6. The two prophets "stood on their feet" after "a breath of God" entered them, and they ascended into Heaven. In that very hour, their enemies became terrified and Jerusalem's downfall began. (Rev. 11:12-13)

This parallels Eze. 37, where the house of Israel was symbolized as "a valley of dry bones." The "breath of God" entered the slain of Israel and "they stood on their feet" and became a vast, conquering army. (Eze. 37:9-14)

The Church was persecuted and martyred, until God raised her up, when He came and paid back affliction to those Jews who were afflicting her. (I Thess. 2:14-16; 4:13-18; II Thess. 1:6-10; Rev. 6:10-17)

7. The peoples "rejoiced" and made merry and gave presents to one another when the two prophets (witnesses) who had prophesied in sackcloth were killed, (Rev. 11:3,9-10) but the two prophets were later raised up. (Rev. 11:12)

This is a reiteration of Jesus' words concerning the Church:

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned to joy." (Jn. 16:20).

I believe the symbol of the "two witnesses" is based on Deut. 17:6; Matt. 18:16:

    "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death....."

The prophetic witness of the Church against fleshly Israel was faithful and true.

    "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony [witness]. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all on account of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand." (Lk. 21:12-20)[/b]

Lehigh you said... I don't think there is a consensus among preterists as to who "the two witnesses" were. I personally believe the "two witnesses" were symbolic of the Church in the last days.  Don't you mean ARE symbolic....??  Surely you are not suggesting that the last days have already occurred??lol  you are aren't you?  wow.  OK.  if the last days are now in the past...what are the days called that we are living in now?

No it's all past tense in the aoric form. "they lived and reigned"  "And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire" until the New Jerusalem.
This age is synonymous with the city of the living God:
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one about to come.
With the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, Jesus Christ brought to complete establishment the eternal Jerusalem from above. The last days concerned Israel and its covenant and nation. We are now in the age that was about to come, the everlasting Covenant through the blood of that great Shepherd of the sheep.

[Lively Stone]

The Full Preterist believes we are now living in the Millennium---you know that period of 1000 years where Satan is bound and Jesus is on His earthly throne? After the 1000 years, Satan is supposed to be set loose and he is to go about the world gathering the great armies together to rise up to destroy Jesus and His Kingdom.

It's now been nearly 2000 years since 70AD.

Time to give up. 

[Covenanter]

Thanks for your genuine questions, Chessmaster. They help us to search the Scriptures. Most of the anti-preterists are hostile.

Lehigh:
Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

I'll post some supporting Scriptures:

Psalm 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof.

Psalm 114:1 When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;
2 Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.
3 The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.
4 The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.
5 What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?
6 Ye mountains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?
7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;
8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Mat. 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Zec. 14:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mark 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rev. 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

How literal is all this? Should we expect mountains to be throw around when we pray? So why should we not understand that the Apostles were praying according to Jesus' encouragement, & the temple mount was cast into the sea in a spiritual sense, thus fulfilling Jesus' prophecy in John 4, & the prophecies of Isaiah 2 & Micah 4.

The new covenant temple comprises all the redeemed people of God, regardless of ethnicity, or location in the world.

See also the graphic description by Habakkuk of the Exodus & the conquest of the Land:
A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet upon Shigionoth.
2 O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.
3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
7 I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction: and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?
9 Thy bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the tribes, even thy word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.
10 The mountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high.
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.
14 Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.
15 Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.
16 When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.
17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
19 The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

[ChessMaster]

QUESTION: According to preterists, who are the two witnesses? Please be more specific than answers I have received in the past.

ANSWER: . Here are seven reasons why I believe this:

1. God gave His "two witnesses" authority to lock up heaven so that there would be no rain while they prophesied, to turn the waters into blood and to smite the Land with every calamity. (Rev. 11:6)

These judgments against Israel were the judgments of the saints, apostles and prophets, in Rev. 18:20. In Rev. 16:2-12 these judgments were "poured out" on the wicked by means of the Church (in the symbol of the "seven angels"). Compare Rev. 15:6 and Rev. 19:8,14; and compare Rev. 21:9 and Rev. 22:8,9.

Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

2. Fire came out of the mouth of the "two witnesses," and it devoured their enemies. (Rev. 11:5)

This symbol was taken from Jer. 5:14:

    "...Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it will consume them."

The prophetic words of the Church consumed the people in the Last Days, just as the prophetic words of Jeremiah consumed the people in his day.

Utterance and wisdom was "given" to believers that none of their enemies were able to resist or refute. (Matt. 10:19-20; Mk. 13:11; Lk. 21:15)

3. No one could harm the two witnesses. (Rev. 11:5) In Lk. 10:19, Jesus gave believers "authority" to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, so that nothing could injure them.

4. The two witnesses were the "two olive trees and the two lampstands." (Rev. 11:4)

In Zech. 3-4, these symbols represented Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the king. In the New Testament, the Church is God's "kingdom and priesthood." (I Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6)

5. The beast made war with the two witnesses, conquered them and killed them. (Rev. 11:7)

This parallels Rev. 13:7-9, where the beast made war with the saints, conquered them and killed them.

6. The two prophets "stood on their feet" after "a breath of God" entered them, and they ascended into Heaven. In that very hour, their enemies became terrified and Jerusalem's downfall began. (Rev. 11:12-13)

This parallels Eze. 37, where the house of Israel was symbolized as "a valley of dry bones." The "breath of God" entered the slain of Israel and "they stood on their feet" and became a vast, conquering army. (Eze. 37:9-14)

The Church was persecuted and martyred, until God raised her up, when He came and paid back affliction to those Jews who were afflicting her. (I Thess. 2:14-16; 4:13-18; II Thess. 1:6-10; Rev. 6:10-17)

7. The peoples "rejoiced" and made merry and gave presents to one another when the two prophets (witnesses) who had prophesied in sackcloth were killed, (Rev. 11:3,9-10) but the two prophets were later raised up. (Rev. 11:12)

This is a reiteration of Jesus' words concerning the Church:

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned to joy." (Jn. 16:20).

I believe the symbol of the "two witnesses" is based on Deut. 17:6; Matt. 18:16:

    "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death....."

The prophetic witness of the Church against fleshly Israel was faithful and true.

    "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony [witness]. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all on account of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand." (Lk. 21:12-20)[/b]

Lehigh you said... I don't think there is a consensus among preterists as to who "the two witnesses" were. I personally believe the "two witnesses" were symbolic of the Church in the last days.  Don't you mean ARE symbolic....??  Surely you are not suggesting that the last days have already occurred??lol  you are aren't you?  wow.  OK.  if the last days are now in the past...what are the days called that we are living in now?

No it's all past tense in the aoric form. "they lived and reigned"  "And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire" until the New Jerusalem.
This age is synonymous with the city of the living God:
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one about to come.
With the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, Jesus Christ brought to complete establishment the eternal Jerusalem from above. The last days concerned Israel and its covenant and nation. We are now in the age that was about to come, the everlasting Covenant through the blood of that great Shepherd of the sheep.

Oh ok so we are now living in the "Millenial Kingdom" and Satan is bound..Hooray!!!  But but wait a minute i look around and see all this evil and i see this evil growing year by year...Oh just ignore that stuff because Satan is bound...Hooray!!  If you really think that Satan is bound as we speak...i have some ocean front property i would like to sell you in Kansas.

[ChessMaster]

Thanks for your genuine questions, Chessmaster. They help us to search the Scriptures. Most of the anti-preterists are hostile.

Lehigh:
Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

I'll post some supporting Scriptures:

Psalm 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof.

Psalm 114:1 When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;
2 Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.
3 The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.
4 The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.
5 What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?
6 Ye mountains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?
7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;
8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Mat. 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Zec. 14:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mark 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rev. 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

How literal is all this? Should we expect mountains to be throw around when we pray? So why should we not understand that the Apostles were praying according to Jesus' encouragement, & the temple mount was cast into the sea in a spiritual sense, thus fulfilling Jesus' prophecy in John 4, & the prophecies of Isaiah 2 & Micah 4.

The new covenant temple comprises all the redeemed people of God, regardless of ethnicity, or location in the world.

See also the graphic description by Habakkuk of the Exodus & the conquest of the Land:
A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet upon Shigionoth.
2 O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.
3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
7 I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction: and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?
9 Thy bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the tribes, even thy word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.
10 The mountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high.
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.
14 Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.
15 Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.
16 When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.
17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
19 The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

Why do you think that they are hostile?

[Covenanter]

Why do you think that they are hostile?

They ask questions they think are unanswerable to try to ridicule Preterism, & never actually consider the replies. They just ask more questions.

[Stucky]

Thanks for your genuine questions, Chessmaster. They help us to search the Scriptures. Most of the anti-preterists are hostile.

Lehigh:
Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

I'll post some supporting Scriptures:

Psalm 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof.

Psalm 114:1 When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;
2 Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.
3 The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.
4 The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.
5 What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?
6 Ye mountains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?
7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;
8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Mat. 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Zec. 14:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mark 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rev. 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

How literal is all this? Should we expect mountains to be throw around when we pray? So why should we not understand that the Apostles were praying according to Jesus' encouragement, & the temple mount was cast into the sea in a spiritual sense, thus fulfilling Jesus' prophecy in John 4, & the prophecies of Isaiah 2 & Micah 4.

The new covenant temple comprises all the redeemed people of God, regardless of ethnicity, or location in the world.

See also the graphic description by Habakkuk of the Exodus & the conquest of the Land:
A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet upon Shigionoth.
2 O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.
3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
7 I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction: and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?
9 Thy bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the tribes, even thy word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.
10 The mountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high.
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.
14 Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.
15 Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.
16 When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.
17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
19 The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

  Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, to me.

[Lehigh]

The Full Preterist believes we are now living in the Millennium---you know that period of 1000 years where Satan is bound and Jesus is on His earthly throne? After the 1000 years, Satan is supposed to be set loose and he is to go about the world gathering the great armies together to rise up to destroy Jesus and His Kingdom.

It's now been nearly 2000 years since 70AD.

Time to give up. 

No, that is erroneous information. Full Preterists believe the "millennium" or "thousand year" is over!

The dead were raised from out of Hades following the "millennium."

Satan had a "short time" from the Cross to the Parousia in AD70 (Rev.12)

John 14:30,
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

1John 3:7,
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

We don't have to worry about Satan any longer- for WE ARE Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS & the devil was defeated for all the brethren from AD70 and beyond!

[Lively Stone]

The Full Preterist believes we are now living in the Millennium---you know that period of 1000 years where Satan is bound and Jesus is on His earthly throne? After the 1000 years, Satan is supposed to be set loose and he is to go about the world gathering the great armies together to rise up to destroy Jesus and His Kingdom.

It's now been nearly 2000 years since 70AD.

Time to give up. 

No, that is erroneous information. Full Preterists believe the "millennium" or "thousand year" is over!

The dead were raised from out of Hades following the "millennium."

Satan had a "short time" from the Cross to the Parousia in AD70 (Rev.12)

John 14:30,
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

1John 3:7,
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

We don't have to worry about Satan any longer- for WE ARE Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS & the devil was defeated for all the brethren from AD70 and beyond!

It's funny that Preterists have actually told me that they believe that this is the Millennium---it may have even been you. Nonetheless, scripture tells us that after the Millennium is over, Satan will be loosed, foment an uprising among the nations and attempt to destroy King Jesus, but He will finish them off in short shrift. Then the end comes---JUDGMENT DAY. There is no long period of earthly life that goes on before that, so this age is definitely NOT what you claim. You have your ages (or dare I say---dispensations) out of order!

An important truth for you---the events are chronological:


Revelation 20:7-15

The Defeat of Satan

7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


While Jesus came and defeated Satan for us, His children, Satan is still active on this planet, deceiving, destroying and seeking to kill Jesus' followers.

1 Peter 5:8
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

This is an instruction that is still as relevant today as it was for the first century Church.

[Stucky]

The Full Preterist believes we are now living in the Millennium---you know that period of 1000 years where Satan is bound and Jesus is on His earthly throne? After the 1000 years, Satan is supposed to be set loose and he is to go about the world gathering the great armies together to rise up to destroy Jesus and His Kingdom.

It's now been nearly 2000 years since 70AD.

Time to give up. 

No, that is erroneous information. Full Preterists believe the "millennium" or "thousand year" is over!

The dead were raised from out of Hades following the "millennium."

Satan had a "short time" from the Cross to the Parousia in AD70 (Rev.12)

John 14:30,
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

1John 3:7,
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

We don't have to worry about Satan any longer- for WE ARE Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS & the devil was defeated for all the brethren from AD70 and beyond!

It's funny that Preterists have actually told me that they believe that this is the Millennium---it may have even been you. Nonetheless, scripture tells us that after the Millennium is over, Satan will be loosed, foment an uprising among the nations and attempt to destroy King Jesus, but He will finish them off in short shrift. Then the end comes---JUDGMENT DAY. There is no long period of earthly life that goes on before that, so this age is definitely NOT what you claim. You have your ages (or dare I say---dispensations) out of order!

An important truth for you---the events are chronological:


Revelation 20:7-15

The Defeat of Satan

7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


While Jesus came and defeated Satan for us, His children, Satan is still active on this planet, deceiving, destroying and seeking to kill Jesus' followers.

1 Peter 5:8
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

This is an instruction that is still as relevant today as it was for the first century Church.

   

[Lehigh]

The Full Preterist believes we are now living in the Millennium---you know that period of 1000 years where Satan is bound and Jesus is on His earthly throne? After the 1000 years, Satan is supposed to be set loose and he is to go about the world gathering the great armies together to rise up to destroy Jesus and His Kingdom.

It's now been nearly 2000 years since 70AD.

Time to give up. 

No, that is erroneous information. Full Preterists believe the "millennium" or "thousand year" is over!

The dead were raised from out of Hades following the "millennium."

Satan had a "short time" from the Cross to the Parousia in AD70 (Rev.12)

John 14:30,
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

1John 3:7,
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

We don't have to worry about Satan any longer- for WE ARE Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS & the devil was defeated for all the brethren from AD70 and beyond!

It's funny that Preterists have actually told me that they believe that this is the Millennium---it may have even been you. Nonetheless, scripture tells us that after the Millennium is over, Satan will be loosed, foment an uprising among the nations and attempt to destroy King Jesus, but He will finish them off in short shrift. Then the end comes---JUDGMENT DAY. There is no long period of earthly life that goes on before that, so this age is definitely NOT what you claim. You have your ages (or dare I say---dispensations) out of order!

An important truth for you---the events are chronological:


Revelation 20:7-15

The Defeat of Satan

7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


While Jesus came and defeated Satan for us, His children, Satan is still active on this planet, deceiving, destroying and seeking to kill Jesus' followers.

1 Peter 5:8
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

This is an instruction that is still as relevant today as it was for the first century Church.

The Judgment throne has passed. Hades is no more.  Our "eternal life" is guaranteed when we die in Christ and we now go to heaven, not Hades, because the hope of Israel is fulfilled. The resurrection of the dead from Hades was their hope.

You can stand guard if you want.

I'm too busy doing my job, trying to get ppl healed. I also try to lead the lost to Christ and all His blessings for an abundant life now and later!~

[Lively Stone]

The Full Preterist believes we are now living in the Millennium---you know that period of 1000 years where Satan is bound and Jesus is on His earthly throne? After the 1000 years, Satan is supposed to be set loose and he is to go about the world gathering the great armies together to rise up to destroy Jesus and His Kingdom.

It's now been nearly 2000 years since 70AD.

Time to give up. 

No, that is erroneous information. Full Preterists believe the "millennium" or "thousand year" is over!

The dead were raised from out of Hades following the "millennium."

Satan had a "short time" from the Cross to the Parousia in AD70 (Rev.12)

John 14:30,
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

1John 3:7,
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

We don't have to worry about Satan any longer- for WE ARE Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS & the devil was defeated for all the brethren from AD70 and beyond!

It's funny that Preterists have actually told me that they believe that this is the Millennium---it may have even been you. Nonetheless, scripture tells us that after the Millennium is over, Satan will be loosed, foment an uprising among the nations and attempt to destroy King Jesus, but He will finish them off in short shrift. Then the end comes---JUDGMENT DAY. There is no long period of earthly life that goes on before that, so this age is definitely NOT what you claim. You have your ages (or dare I say---dispensations) out of order!

An important truth for you---the events are chronological:


Revelation 20:7-15

The Defeat of Satan

7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


While Jesus came and defeated Satan for us, His children, Satan is still active on this planet, deceiving, destroying and seeking to kill Jesus' followers.

1 Peter 5:8
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

This is an instruction that is still as relevant today as it was for the first century Church.

The Judgment throne has passed.

So the end has come? Nonsense! If Judgment has occurred, why are you still in your flesh? Every believer at that point will have been glorified. Preterism has really caused a lot of confusion and brings much deception.

Hades is no more.

Nonsense also! Hades---or Sheol, is the grave and the unbelieving dead are amassed there until they are resurrected ON JUDGMENT DAY!

Our "eternal life" is guaranteed when we die in Christ and we now go to heaven, not Hades, because the hope of Israel is fulfilled. The resurrection of the dead from Hades was their hope.

Yes, when I die, because I am Christ's, I will go directly to heaven to be where He is. That is His promise. Jesus took care of the righteous in Hades when He went to open their way to heaven during those three days He was there. No righteous person has ever gone there since.

So...if as you say, the Judgment has occurred, why are people dying? Death is supposed to be no more, Death and Hades is to be dispatched forever into the Lake of Fire. Why do we still have billions of sinners here who should have been cast into the Lake of Fire long ago? Did God forget them? Or are you saying that everyone on this planet is righteous?

Preterism is the doctrine of someone who surely didn't know the word of God, and I question his personal knowledge of and living relationship with the Saviour also. It certainly has some very deep roots that are blinding so many people to the truth.

[Stucky]

The Full Preterist believes we are now living in the Millennium---you know that period of 1000 years where Satan is bound and Jesus is on His earthly throne? After the 1000 years, Satan is supposed to be set loose and he is to go about the world gathering the great armies together to rise up to destroy Jesus and His Kingdom.

It's now been nearly 2000 years since 70AD.

Time to give up. 

No, that is erroneous information. Full Preterists believe the "millennium" or "thousand year" is over!

The dead were raised from out of Hades following the "millennium."

Satan had a "short time" from the Cross to the Parousia in AD70 (Rev.12)

John 14:30,
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

1John 3:7,
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

We don't have to worry about Satan any longer- for WE ARE Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS & the devil was defeated for all the brethren from AD70 and beyond!

It's funny that Preterists have actually told me that they believe that this is the Millennium---it may have even been you. Nonetheless, scripture tells us that after the Millennium is over, Satan will be loosed, foment an uprising among the nations and attempt to destroy King Jesus, but He will finish them off in short shrift. Then the end comes---JUDGMENT DAY. There is no long period of earthly life that goes on before that, so this age is definitely NOT what you claim. You have your ages (or dare I say---dispensations) out of order!

An important truth for you---the events are chronological:


Revelation 20:7-15

The Defeat of Satan

7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


While Jesus came and defeated Satan for us, His children, Satan is still active on this planet, deceiving, destroying and seeking to kill Jesus' followers.

1 Peter 5:8
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

This is an instruction that is still as relevant today as it was for the first century Church.

The Judgment throne has passed. Hades is no more.  Our "eternal life" is guaranteed when we die in Christ and we now go to heaven, not Hades, because the hope of Israel is fulfilled. The resurrection of the dead from Hades was their hope.

You can stand guard if you want.

I'm too busy doing my job, trying to get ppl healed. I also try to lead the lost to Christ and all His blessings for an abundant life now and later!~

Good for you, keep up the good work and thank you for posting your opinion.

[Lively Stone]

I'm too busy doing my job, trying to get ppl healed. I also try to lead the lost to Christ and all His blessings for an abundant life now and later!~

How does one TRY to get people healed? Jesus is our Healer. We have the authority of Christ over sickness and disease and it is merely a matter of taking that authority over it. It isn't something we strive at.

As a Christian we are all called to preach the gospel to the lost. His abundant life is on offer to us now and eternal life later.

Why do you have to TRY?

The one good thing there is that you do know that we still have the lost among us, where we know in the scriptures that after Judgment, there will not be any more need for the spreading of the gospel, because there will be no more lost among us. So---how can you say that God's final Judgment has come and gone? That is error, and the spreading of additional doctrine to the already established word of God it is something we must stand against.

[Lehigh]

I'm too busy doing my job, trying to get ppl healed. I also try to lead the lost to Christ and all His blessings for an abundant life now and later!~

How does one TRY to get people healed? Jesus is our Healer. We have the authority of Christ over sickness and disease and it is merely a matter of taking that authority over it. It isn't something we strive at.

As a Christian we are all called to preach the gospel to the lost. His abundant life is on offer to us now and eternal life later.

Why do you have to TRY?

The one good thing there is that you do know that we still have the lost among us, where we know in the scriptures that after Judgment, there will not be any more need for the spreading of the gospel, because there will be no more lost among us. So---how can you say that God's final Judgment has come and gone? That is error, and the spreading of additional doctrine to the already established word of God it is something we must stand against.

Yup, and the gospel is preached in the New Jerusalem for the lost to keep coming still- "Come take the water of life freely"

"Trying" is a term for the humble. (I was talking about my job as a healthcare professional and the contribution we make in the healing/rehabilitation process. But since you mentioned it, I'm proud to be humble!

God's final judgment is already on us when we die. 

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Lively Stone]

I'm too busy doing my job, trying to get ppl healed. I also try to lead the lost to Christ and all His blessings for an abundant life now and later!~

How does one TRY to get people healed? Jesus is our Healer. We have the authority of Christ over sickness and disease and it is merely a matter of taking that authority over it. It isn't something we strive at.

As a Christian we are all called to preach the gospel to the lost. His abundant life is on offer to us now and eternal life later.

Why do you have to TRY?

The one good thing there is that you do know that we still have the lost among us, where we know in the scriptures that after Judgment, there will not be any more need for the spreading of the gospel, because there will be no more lost among us. So---how can you say that God's final Judgment has come and gone? That is error, and the spreading of additional doctrine to the already established word of God it is something we must stand against.

Yup, and the gospel is preached in the New Jerusalem for the lost to keep coming still- "Come take the water of life freely"

The New Jerusalem has yet to come.

Revelation 3:12
All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.

Revelation 21:1
[ The New Jerusalem ] Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone.

Revelation 21:2
And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

"Trying" is a term for the humble. (I was talking about my job as a healthcare professional and the contribution we make in the healing/rehabilitation process. But since you mentioned it, I'm proud to be humble!

As a former healthcare professional, healing wasn't my job. Care was. God does the healing. Humility would acknowledge that.

God's final judgment is already on us when we die. 

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Sorry, but Christians do not undergo judgment. When we die we are received immediately into the Kingdom. Unbelievers have to wait until the second death to be raised and judged.

Revelation 2:11
"Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
"But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."