Preterism, a step by step explanation

[JohnDB]

We have this forum for Preterists.


Many people who are not particularly theologically astute wish to understand what this particular theology is comprised of.


Can someone (who is a preterist) please give a step by step explanation and articulation of what this "end times viewpoint" involves and why you believe this.


It would be of immense help to those who simply do not understand.

[Covenanter]

A fair question, John. I'll do my best, as what some call a "partial preterist" because I believe that Jesus will return in glory for resurrection & judgement, & to bring into being a perfect new heaven & new earth.

Some of the other preterists here do not believe in a final second coming, but believe that the resurrection is to a heavenly state at death or at specific times such as Jesus' resurrection & his coming in ad 70. As they will only be proved wrong when Jesus does return, I can fellowship with them.

The alternative eschatologies include:
Preterism -

Preterism - a Biblical defence.

Preterists believe that when Jesus prophesied the AD 70 destruction (Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21) he went on to detail the events of that time, to give disasters that were NOT signs of the end (of Jerusalem) & signs that meant the destruction was imminent. The Jerusalem Jewish Christians took his warning & fled the city 3 1/2 years before the end.

We further believe that the OT prophets primarily prophesy Jesus, his coming; his saving work; the Gospel to the nations; his spiritual kingdom in the Gospel age; & his final coming for resurrection & judgment, & to establish a perfect NH&NE for his redeemed people. Jesus believed & taught that (Luke 24) as did the Apostles.

We further believe that Revelation was written primarily for its first C readers before AD 70, so that the various seals, trumpets & vials related to the destruction. The warnings & encouragements to the first C church establish principles for Christian living down the centuries, but there is no further detailed prophecy of "end times" & future dispensations.

We believe that Rev. 20 refers to the present Gospel age. Satan was bound that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. That was effected by Christ's resurrection & the great commission - the Gospel to the nations which were hitherto in Satan's power. Jesus bound him.

That thread ran for 18 pages - mostly hostile.

PLEASE - if you are anti-preterism, do not post in this thread. Too many threads are taken over by contributors trying to disprove preterism so that the Biblical arguments are lost in hostile posts.

I am, of course, happy to answer genuine questions, but my time is limited.

Historical amillennial - sees aspects of Jesus Olivet prophecy continuing down the ages, after its ad 70 fulfilment. The millennium is the present Gospel age, after which Jesus will return in glory for resurrection & judgement, & to bring into being a perfect new heaven & new earth. It is a position I held for many years, & maintain fellowship with those who believe that.

Futurism/dispensationalists see all prophecy focusing on yet future "end times;" the re-establishment of the nation of Israel, rebuilding of a physical temple, antichrist, rapture of believers leaving unbelievers to suffer tribulation, all followed by a millennium ruled in person by Jesus from earthly Jerusalem. That idyllic millennium ends with the release of Satan & a whorld-wide rebellion of most of those who have enjoyed Jesus' direct rule. It's a fantastic scenario that I strongly oppose.

I hope that helps - please ask specific questions.

[Lehigh]

I will post articles relevant to Preterist questions.  Preterism is what the Bible teaches, not what tradition teaches.

I am a full Preterist.  I am not waiting for the grace and blessings in Christ to come "someday"  Their hope (in the N.T.) is our reality. Salvation was made complete in AD70. There is nothing that He didn't fulfill.

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/how_to_share.htm

Here is my approach to sharing the preterist view. I like to give futurists a handout with all the scriptures on it so they can see them for themselves. The following is included in this handout.

As we read the Bible, we must keep in mind the hermeneuticial principle of audience relevance, which seeks to discover what the original audience understood a passage to mean. The Bible is written "for" us, but it is not written "to" us. We must seek to understand what Scripture meant to its original audience, then we can apply it to ourselves. As you read the following scriptures, ask yourself these questions: Who is this written to? When was it written? When did they expect Christ to return?

Jesus said to His disciples:

    Matthew 10:23 (NKJV) "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    Matthew 16:27-28 (NKJV) "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

    Matthew 24:34 (NKJV) "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jesus said to Peter:

    John 21:21-22 (NKJV) Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man (John)?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."

Paul said to the Roman Christians:

    Romans 13:11-12 (NKJV) And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

    Romans 16:20 (NKJV) And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Paul said to the Corinthian Christians:

    1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NKJV) so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NKJV) But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.

    1 Corinthians 10:11 (NKJV) Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul said to the Philippian Christians:

    Philippians 1:6 (NKJV) being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

    Philippians 4:5 (NKJV) Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Paul said to the Thessalonian Christians:

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NKJV) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul said to Timothy:

    1 Timothy 6:14 (NKJV) that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,

Paul said to Titus:

    Titus 2:12-13 (NKJV) teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The writer of Hebrews said to the Hebrew Christians:

    Hebrews 10:37 (NKJV) "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

    James 5:7-9 (NKJV) Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Peter wrote to Christians:

    1 Peter 1:13 (NKJV) Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    1 Peter 4:7 (NKJV) But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

John wrote to the seven Churches in Asia Minor:

    Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants; things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

    Revelation 1:3 (NKJV) Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Jesus said to the first century church of Thyatira:

    Revelation 2:25 (NKJV) "But hold fast what you have till I come.

Jesus said to the first century church of Philadelphia:

    Revelation 3:11 (NKJV) "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

    Revelation 22:6-7 (NKJV) Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. 7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

    Revelation 22:10 (NKJV) And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

    Revelation 22:12 (NKJV) "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

    Revelation 22:20 (NKJV) He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Keep in mind audience relevance, which seeks to discover what the original audience understood a passage to mean. He said He was coming soon, He said His coming was "at hand." He said He was coming in the life time of those He was speaking to. He said He was coming in "their generation." You cannot read the New Testament without seeing the imminent expectation that they had for the return of Christ. This has caused problems for many.

The self-proclaimed atheist, Bertrand Russell, made use of this obvious conclusion in his work, Why I Am Not A Christian : "I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem very wise. For one thing, He certainly thought that His Second Coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove it.... That was the belief of His early followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching" (page 16).

Russell used the New Testament's "imminent" texts as "proof" that Jesus could not be the Son of God. And modern Christianity, in general, has not been able to answer adequately such objections from atheists and non-Christians. Believers today must address directly the vast misunderstanding that exists within the realm of Christianity regarding Christ's eschatological teachings.

    Matthew 24:34 (NKJV) "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jesus, here, very plainly and very clearly, tells His disciples that ALL of the things He had mentioned would come to pass in THEIR GENERATION. If you study the context, you will see that this includes the gospel being preached in all the world, the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation, and the Second Coming of Christ. This is so clear that it greatly troubles those who hold to a futuristic eschatology. Look at what C.S. Lewis said about Matthew 24:34:

The apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be done." And He was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. (Essay "The World's Last Night" (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p. 385)

Is Lewis right? Was Jesus wrong? I can't accept that, can you? Fortunately, Christ did keep His promise to come within the first-century generation. Christ's Second Coming occurred spiritually -- the way He intended it -- at the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem. This highly verified historical event signified that sin finally had been atoned forever and that all Christians, from generation to generation, could live eternally -- on earth and in heaven -- without separation from God.

Now, I'm sure that you're thinking: If the Lord did come back in 70 AD, how did we miss it for all these years? How could He have come back and we not have known it? The problem here is one of preconceived ideas. It is because of the paradigms that we have developed. We think that the Second Coming is an earth burning, heaven melting, globe changing event; so we assume it could not have already happened.

I submit to you that either Scripture is wrong about the time of the Second Coming and thus not inerrant, or our paradigms are wrong about the nature of the Second Coming. Which one of those are you more comfortable with; an incorrect paradigm or an uninspired Scripture? I think I can prove that our understanding of the "nature" of the Second Coming is wrong.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

How is it that the Thessalonians thought that the Second Coming had already happened? If they viewed the nature of these things as literal, how on earth could they have thought that they already happened? If their concept of the Second Coming was an earth burning; heaven melting; globe changing event, how could they have thought it had already happened? If Paul was teaching the Second Coming as an earth burning; heaven melting; globe changing event, all he would have had to say to the Thessalonians is, "Hello, look out your windows, the earth is not on fire, the sky is still blue." Paul never corrects their idea of the nature of the Second Coming, he simply says it has not happened yet. They must have viewed the nature of the Second Coming differently than we do.

Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the physical creation will be destroyed. Notice what God said after the flood of Noah's day:

    Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time, and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change His method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?

    Psalms 148:4-6 (NKJV) Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.

What decree did God make concerning the establishment of the heaven and the earth that will never pass away? Genesis 8:21! God said that He would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word. He said He was coming soon, and He did.

Until January, 1997, I had never heard of the preterist (meaning past in fulfillment) view of eschatology, so, I obviously could not believe what I didn't know. When a friend first shared it with me, I thought he was MAD. As I began to study this view, I saw that though it went against what the majority of the Church was teaching, it was what the Bible was teaching. I had to make a choice between tradition and the Scripture-- the choice was easy. If this view is new to you, I would ask that you would openly and honestly look at what it is saying. Almost every book in the New Testament talks of a "soon" return of Jesus Christ, and it is very hard to make 2,000 years "soon," by any hermeneutic. The major issue to me in all of this is the Inspiration of Scripture. Don't let tradition rob you of the precious truths which our Lord taught. I challenge you to be a Berean and daily search the Scripture to see if these things are so. .

[Nevertheless]

Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time, and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change His method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?

I have no comment on the rest of your post, but in this case, at least, you have removed the verse from its context, and thus obscured its meaning. If you had continued on to verse 22, you would see that. "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.""

The promise is further explained in chapter 9.
"8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9 "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." "

Folks say that God promised not to again destroy every living thing by a flood because they read the whole story, not just a verse or two cherry-picked out of it.

[Lehigh]

Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time, and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change His method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?

I have no comment on the rest of your post, but in this case, at least, you have removed the verse from its context, and thus obscured its meaning. If you had continued on to verse 22, you would see that. "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.""

The promise is further explained in chapter 9.
"8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9 "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." "

Folks say that God promised not to again destroy every living thing by a flood because they read the whole story, not just a verse or two cherry-picked out of it.

Well, some folks actually studied the the whole O.T. too, when hearing about Faith.

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

I don't think so.

[Lively Stone]

Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time, and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change His method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?

I have no comment on the rest of your post, but in this case, at least, you have removed the verse from its context, and thus obscured its meaning. If you had continued on to verse 22, you would see that. "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.""

The promise is further explained in chapter 9.
"8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9 "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." "

Folks say that God promised not to again destroy every living thing by a flood because they read the whole story, not just a verse or two cherry-picked out of it.

Well, some folks actually studied the the whole O.T. too, when hearing about Faith.

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

I don't think so.

Many know Israel's history from the beginning, yet it is the Preterists who deny and ignore what God says about her future. 

Ezekiel 37:21-28
21 Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations to which they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land.

22 And I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, neither be divided into two kingdoms any more.

23 They shall not defile themselves any more with their idols and their detestable things or with any of their transgressions, but I will save them out of all their dwelling places and from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them. So shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

24 And David My Servant shall be King over them, and they all shall have one Shepherd. They shall also walk in My ordinances and heed My statutes and do them.

25 They shall dwell in the land in which your fathers dwelt, that I gave to My servant Jacob, and they shall dwell there, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My Servant David shall be their Prince forever.

26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, and I will give blessings to them and multiply them and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.

27 My tabernacle or dwelling place also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

28 Then the nations shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord do set apart and consecrate Israel for holy use, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forevermore.


Note:
Ezekiel 34:23 The name of David is here put simply, as well as in Ezek. 34:24; Ezek. 37:24, 25; Jer. 30:9; Hos. 3:5, instead of the more usual designations of the Messiah as the Son (Matt. 1:1), the Branch (Jer. 23:5), the Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16). But there can be no possible doubt as to the meaning.... David, as the head of the theocracy and the ancestor of our Lord according to the flesh, constantly appears in the Scriptures as a type of the Messiah, and there can be no reasonable doubt that the prophecy would have been so understood, even at the time it was uttered (Charles Ellicott, A Bible Commentary).

[Nevertheless]

Well, some folks actually studied the the whole O.T. too, when hearing about Faith.

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

I don't think so.

Is that really supposed to be a response to what I wrote?

[Lehigh]

Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time, and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change His method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?

I have no comment on the rest of your post, but in this case, at least, you have removed the verse from its context, and thus obscured its meaning. If you had continued on to verse 22, you would see that. "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.""

The promise is further explained in chapter 9.
"8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9 "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." "

Folks say that God promised not to again destroy every living thing by a flood because they read the whole story, not just a verse or two cherry-picked out of it.

Well, some folks actually studied the the whole O.T. too, when hearing about Faith.

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

I don't think so.

Many know Israel's history from the beginning, yet it is the Preterists who deny and ignore what God says about her future. 

Ezekiel 37:21-28
21 Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations to which they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land.

22 And I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King over them all; and they shall be no longer two nations, neither be divided into two kingdoms any more.

23 They shall not defile themselves any more with their idols and their detestable things or with any of their transgressions, but I will save them out of all their dwelling places and from all their backslidings in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them. So shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

24 And David My Servant shall be King over them, and they all shall have one Shepherd. They shall also walk in My ordinances and heed My statutes and do them.

25 They shall dwell in the land in which your fathers dwelt, that I gave to My servant Jacob, and they shall dwell there, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My Servant David shall be their Prince forever.

26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, and I will give blessings to them and multiply them and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.

27 My tabernacle or dwelling place also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

28 Then the nations shall know, understand, and realize that I the Lord do set apart and consecrate Israel for holy use, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forevermore.


Note:
Ezekiel 34:23 The name of David is here put simply, as well as in Ezek. 34:24; Ezek. 37:24, 25; Jer. 30:9; Hos. 3:5, instead of the more usual designations of the Messiah as the Son (Matt. 1:1), the Branch (Jer. 23:5), the Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16). But there can be no possible doubt as to the meaning.... David, as the head of the theocracy and the ancestor of our Lord according to the flesh, constantly appears in the Scriptures as a type of the Messiah, and there can be no reasonable doubt that the prophecy would have been so understood, even at the time it was uttered (Charles Ellicott, A Bible Commentary).

No. This isn't a Christian Zionist thread, period!   This is about explaining Preterism to the masses on the www AND you, the student.

And naturally you cite an O.T. prophet!   

Tell me about Israel of the Bible's history apart from the figurative language of prophecy that you make literal in the N.T.

You can't bc Zionists are stuck in the 1960's "millenium madness" nonsense that was proved a sham many years ago.

Changing is something one has to implore God to  help you do. 

Otherwise, you won't grow in the knowledge of what Jesus taught.


So, are you understanding this thread so far?

Did you read pastor Curtis'  Bible study I posted?

Like I said, this is a thread made for Preterists to describe, even prove their end-time doctrine to the masses & for anyone else who is curious & wants to know more about it.

Thread hijacking per rule #2. with Zionism is against forum rules.

You have the regular "end-times" category for that.

[Lively Stone]

My response has nothing to do with Zionism. It was to respond to your statement and answer your question:

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

Many know Israel's history, but many choose to ignore the future God has in store for her.

[Covenanter]

"Preterism" is not a separate & militant branch of Christianity, but is found throughout the churches where the Bible is believed. We see prophecy focusing on Christ & the present age, with the ultimate & perfect fulfilment in our resurrection state. Discussion is on whether there is a final coming of the Lord Jesus for bodily resurrection & judgement & to bring about a NH&NE or whether the resurrection at death to glory in heaven with Christ is our final state. Either way, we preach Christ & see him as the glorious fulfilment of all prophecy.

Zionists - please do NOT hijack this thread - ask questions if you wish but do not post arguments. We've seen them all before.

There are, of course, many OT prophecies relating to Israel, promising a glorious future. Ezekiel makes many such prophecies, so should we look for these to be fulfilled in the people who claim descent from Abraham, & have now taken control of the territory promised to Abraham?

The OT prophecies are freely quoted in the NT, but NEVER is there any suggestion of an ethnic & territorial fulfilment of those prophecies. Rather, the prophecies are applied to believers in Jesus, both Jew & Gentile. Romans & Galatians spell this out. Even Rom. 11 insists on belief in Christ for regrafting Jewish individuals into the olive tree. It's about Christ-believing people, not ethnicity & territory.

In fact the OT has serious warnings against unbelieving Israel, & the warnings of e.g. Moses & Malachi are FINAL. Peter makes this clear.

Deut. 18:15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
....
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Jesus prophesied the same - the taking of the kingdom from the rebellious Jews, & the end of the nation in favour of a nation of believers. Notice the reference tohis "coming" for their judgement in ad 70. Peter explains further, quoting Exodus 19.

Mat. 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Exo. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Note that Peter is NOT addressing Jews, but those who were "not a people." See Eph. 2, & Romans 9 & Hosea.

Do the natural descendants of Abraham have a special place in God's purposes? Only by repentance & faith in Christ. Listen to John:

Mat. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

We CANNOT use promises to Abraham or Israel in the prophets to prove a future for ethnic Israel, nor should we recognise those in the land as a people restored according to God's prophecies & declared purposes. They are still enemies of Christ. The focus by futurists/dispensationalists on the country called Israel is in no way Biblical. They are sinners who need the Gospel, as they did in the time of Jesus & the Apostles.

Note that Stephen declared the rebellious Jews "uncircumcised" while Paul denounced circumcision as "concision" or mutilation.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

[Stucky]

"Preterism" is not a separate & militant branch of Christianity, but is found throughout the churches where the Bible is believed. We see prophecy focusing on Christ & the present age, with the ultimate & perfect fulfilment in our resurrection state. Discussion is on whether there is a final coming of the Lord Jesus for bodily resurrection & judgement & to bring about a NH&NE or whether the resurrection at death to glory in heaven with Christ is our final state. Either way, we preach Christ & see him as the glorious fulfilment of all prophecy.

Zionists - please do NOT hijack this thread - ask questions if you wish but do not post arguments. We've seen them all before.

There are, of course, many OT prophecies relating to Israel, promising a glorious future. Ezekiel makes many such prophecies, so should we look for these to be fulfilled in the people who claim descent from Abraham, & have now taken control of the territory promised to Abraham?

The OT prophecies are freely quoted in the NT, but NEVER is there any suggestion of an ethnic & territorial fulfilment of those prophecies. Rather, the prophecies are applied to believers in Jesus, both Jew & Gentile. Romans & Galatians spell this out. Even Rom. 11 insists on belief in Christ for regrafting Jewish individuals into the olive tree. It's about Christ-believing people, not ethnicity & territory.

In fact the OT has serious warnings against unbelieving Israel, & the warnings of e.g. Moses & Malachi are FINAL. Peter makes this clear.

Deut. 18:15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
....
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Jesus prophesied the same - the taking of the kingdom from the rebellious Jews, & the end of the nation in favour of a nation of believers. Notice the reference tohis "coming" for their judgement in ad 70. Peter explains further, quoting Exodus 19.

Mat. 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Exo. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Note that Peter is NOT addressing Jews, but those who were "not a people." See Eph. 2, & Romans 9 & Hosea.

Do the natural descendants of Abraham have a special place in God's purposes? Only by repentance & faith in Christ. Listen to John:

Mat. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

We CANNOT use promises to Abraham or Israel in the prophets to prove a future for ethnic Israel, nor should we recognise those in the land as a people restored according to God's prophecies & declared purposes. They are still enemies of Christ. The focus by futurists/dispensationalists on the country called Israel is in no way Biblical. They are sinners who need the Gospel, as they did in the time of Jesus & the Apostles.

Note that Stephen declared the rebellious Jews "uncircumcised" while Paul denounced circumcision as "concision" or mutilation.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

So, what you are saying is that if a Christian doesnt believe in Preterism they dont believe in the Bible, is that correct?

Zionists are not allowed on this thread?  Why?  Non-Catholics are allowed on the Catholic thread?  What's so special about Preterists?  Is this or is this not a Preterist Bulletin Board?  If not, why is it being hijacked by Preterists?  If this IS a Preterist Bulletin Board and you do not allow dissenting opinion, then why shoulod any non-Preterist remain here?

Your interpretation of the Scriptures is just that, YOUR interpretation.  Their has been no convocation of Saints to determine that you are correct.   

[Nevertheless]

Stucky, and others who seem to be having trouble understanding this - this thread is for preterists to explain their beliefs. It is not the place to tell them how wrong they are.

[Stucky]

Stucky, and others who seem to be having trouble understanding this - this thread is for preterists to explain their beliefs. It is not the place to tell them how wrong they are.

Gotcha Nevertheless, so where is the Futurists forum where we can explain our beliefs and you cant tell us how wrong we are?

[Nevertheless]

Stucky, and others who seem to be having trouble understanding this - this thread is for preterists to explain their beliefs. It is not the place to tell them how wrong they are.

Gotcha Nevertheless, so where is the Futurists forum where we can explain our beliefs and you cant tell us how wrong we are?

It's called the End Times Forum. If you'd like, just start a thread called, "Futurism, a step by step explanation", then in the OP request that futurists explain what they believe and why.

[Stucky]

Stucky, and others who seem to be having trouble understanding this - this thread is for preterists to explain their beliefs. It is not the place to tell them how wrong they are.

Gotcha Nevertheless, so where is the Futurists forum where we can explain our beliefs and you cant tell us how wrong we are?

It's called the End Times Forum. If you'd like, just start a thread called, "Futurism, a step by step explanation", then in the OP request that futurists explain what they believe and why.

I know that Nevertheless, I'm just being a smart-alek and asking what makes you Preterists so special that you get your own Forum and the rest of us have to settle for threads?   

[Nevertheless]

I know that Nevertheless, I'm just being a smart-alek and asking what makes you Preterists so special that you get your own Forum and the rest of us have to settle for threads?   

FYI - I am not a preterist.

[Stucky]

I know that Nevertheless, I'm just being a smart-alek and asking what makes you Preterists so special that you get your own Forum and the rest of us have to settle for threads?   

FYI - I am not a preterist.

Okay, thanks.  Then amend my question to:  What makes Preterists so special that they get their own Forum and the rest of us have to settle for threads?

[Lehigh]

I know that Nevertheless, I'm just being a smart-alek and asking what makes you Preterists so special that you get your own Forum and the rest of us have to settle for threads?   

FYI - I am not a preterist.

Okay, thanks.  Then amend my question to:  What makes Preterists so special that they get their own Forum and the rest of us have to settle for threads?

Yes, this is the ever so special, cream of the crop forum on Eschatology. Care to join us? 

[Lehigh]

My response has nothing to do with Zionism. It was to respond to your statement and answer your question:

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

Many know Israel's history, but many choose to ignore the future God has in store for her.

Those who think God has any future  for modern day Israel are the ZIONISTS!   

Hey LS,  did God just skip over the real Holocaust in the N.T. ?!  OOPS!  You can't explain!

[Grappler]

A fair question, John. I'll do my best, as what some call a "partial preterist" because I believe that Jesus will return in glory for resurrection & judgement, & to bring into being a perfect new heaven & new earth.

Some of the other preterists here do not believe in a final second coming, but believe that the resurrection is to a heavenly state at death or at specific times such as Jesus' resurrection & his coming in ad 70. As they will only be proved wrong when Jesus does return, I can fellowship with them.

The alternative eschatologies include:
Preterism -

Preterism - a Biblical defence.

Preterists believe that when Jesus prophesied the AD 70 destruction (Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21) he went on to detail the events of that time, to give disasters that were NOT signs of the end (of Jerusalem) & signs that meant the destruction was imminent. The Jerusalem Jewish Christians took his warning & fled the city 3 1/2 years before the end.

We further believe that the OT prophets primarily prophesy Jesus, his coming; his saving work; the Gospel to the nations; his spiritual kingdom in the Gospel age; & his final coming for resurrection & judgment, & to establish a perfect NH&NE for his redeemed people. Jesus believed & taught that (Luke 24) as did the Apostles.

We further believe that Revelation was written primarily for its first C readers before AD 70, so that the various seals, trumpets & vials related to the destruction. The warnings & encouragements to the first C church establish principles for Christian living down the centuries, but there is no further detailed prophecy of "end times" & future dispensations.

We believe that Rev. 20 refers to the present Gospel age. Satan was bound that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. That was effected by Christ's resurrection & the great commission - the Gospel to the nations which were hitherto in Satan's power. Jesus bound him.

That thread ran for 18 pages - mostly hostile.

PLEASE - if you are anti-preterism, do not post in this thread. Too many threads are taken over by contributors trying to disprove preterism so that the Biblical arguments are lost in hostile posts.

I am, of course, happy to answer genuine questions, but my time is limited.

Historical amillennial - sees aspects of Jesus Olivet prophecy continuing down the ages, after its ad 70 fulfilment. The millennium is the present Gospel age, after which Jesus will return in glory for resurrection & judgement, & to bring into being a perfect new heaven & new earth. It is a position I held for many years, & maintain fellowship with those who believe that.

Futurism/dispensationalists see all prophecy focusing on yet future "end times;" the re-establishment of the nation of Israel, rebuilding of a physical temple, antichrist, rapture of believers leaving unbelievers to suffer tribulation, all followed by a millennium ruled in person by Jesus from earthly Jerusalem. That idyllic millennium ends with the release of Satan & a whorld-wide rebellion of most of those who have enjoyed Jesus' direct rule. It's a fantastic scenario that I strongly oppose.

I hope that helps - please ask specific questions.

Hmm.  You know Coventanter i may just be a "partial preterists" as you call it.  I, believe that Jesus is coming back literally as scripture teaches to set up his kingdom on Earth.  I reject Dispensationalism, Pre-trib. escape, and the modern Zionsists state of Israel.  Does that make me a "partial preterists"?

[Lively Stone]

My response has nothing to do with Zionism. It was to respond to your statement and answer your question:

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

Many know Israel's history, but many choose to ignore the future God has in store for her.

Those who think God has any future  for modern day Israel are the ZIONISTS!   

Hey LS,  did God just skip over the real Holocaust in the N.T. ?!  OOPS!  You can't explain!

Don't label people. It is unseemly. I am a Christian who knows God and His word and who knows that Israel has yet to receive her Messiah, and by God's decree, that Day is fast approaching.

[Stucky]

My response has nothing to do with Zionism. It was to respond to your statement and answer your question:

They didn't just single out Prophecies that they can imagine into things that are NOT.

Do they really know Israel's O.T. history?

Many know Israel's history, but many choose to ignore the future God has in store for her.

Those who think God has any future  for modern day Israel are the ZIONISTS!   

Hey LS,  did God just skip over the real Holocaust in the N.T. ?!  OOPS!  You can't explain!

Don't label people. It is unseemly. I am a Christian who knows God and His word and who knows that Israel has yet to receive her Messiah, and by God's decree, that Day is fast approaching.

If I could put things as good as you do, I wouldnt need to quote other people so often.   

[Covenanter]

Thank you, Nevertheless.

Covenanter:
Zionists - please do NOT hijack this thread - ask questions if you wish but do not post arguments. We've seen them all before.

Stucky:
Zionists are not allowed on this thread?  Why?

See the OP - global moderator JohnDB requested Preterists to explain their theology.

We have this forum for Preterists.

Many people who are not particularly theologically astute wish to understand what this particular theology is comprised of.

Can someone (who is a preterist) please give a step by step explanation and articulation of what this "end times viewpoint" involves and why you believe this.

It would be of immense help to those who simply do not understand.

Stucky:
So, what you are saying is that if a Christian doesnt believe in Preterism they dont believe in the Bible, is that correct?

No - Preterists believe the Bible - but you may have noticed there is disagreement on many doctrines between Bible-believing Christians. We discuss the things to come to a right understanding of Bible teaching.

[Stucky]

Thank you, Nevertheless.

Covenanter:
Zionists - please do NOT hijack this thread - ask questions if you wish but do not post arguments. We've seen them all before.

Stucky:
Zionists are not allowed on this thread?  Why?

See the OP - global moderator JohnDB requested Preterists to explain their theology.

We have this forum for Preterists.

Many people who are not particularly theologically astute wish to understand what this particular theology is comprised of.

Can someone (who is a preterist) please give a step by step explanation and articulation of what this "end times viewpoint" involves and why you believe this.

It would be of immense help to those who simply do not understand.

Stucky:
So, what you are saying is that if a Christian doesnt believe in Preterism they dont believe in the Bible, is that correct?

No - Preterists believe the Bible - but you may have noticed there is disagreement on many doctrines between Bible-believing Christians. We discuss the things to come to a right understanding of Bible teaching.

Lol...Gotcha.  Preterists must have their own Forum where no cone is allowed to disagree with them.  No problem, I'm used to that from Muslims  and atheists.  Nothing new here.

[Covenanter]

Lol...Gotcha.  Preterists must have their own Forum where no cone is allowed to disagree with them.  No problem, I'm used to that from Muslims  and atheists.  Nothing new here.

No, Stucky, If you look at the other threads in this forum you will see there is plenty of debate & disagreement. This specific thread was started by a global moderator JohnDB who asked "Can someone (who is a preterist) please give a step by step explanation and articulation of what this "end times viewpoint" involves and why you believe this. It would be of immense help to those who simply do not understand."

You are posting against him, with the sort of contentious posts that do not contribute to the discussion.

Feel free to ask questions which will be answered here for the benefit of the OP request. If you want to argue or debate, open another thread on the Preterist forum.

[Stucky]

Lol...Gotcha.  Preterists must have their own Forum where no cone is allowed to disagree with them.  No problem, I'm used to that from Muslims  and atheists.  Nothing new here.

No, Stucky, If you look at the other threads in this forum you will see there is plenty of debate & disagreement. This specific thread was started by a global moderator JohnDB who asked "Can someone (who is a preterist) please give a step by step explanation and articulation of what this "end times viewpoint" involves and why you believe this. It would be of immense help to those who simply do not understand."

You are posting against him, with the sort of contentious posts that do not contribute to the discussion.

Feel free to ask questions which will be answered here for the benefit of the OP request. If you want to argue or debate, open another thread on the Preterist forum.

Okay, I'll shut up.  None of you seem to get my point.  No big deal.  Thanks.

[Covenanter]

Hmm.  You know Coventanter i may just be a "partial preterists" as you call it.  I, believe that Jesus is coming back literally as scripture teaches to set up his kingdom on Earth.  I reject Dispensationalism, Pre-trib. escape, and the modern Zionsists state of Israel.  Does that make me a "partial preterists"?

We have a basic agreement on the final coming of our Lord.

I presume from what you have written elsewhere that you believe in a continuous-historical interpretation of NT prophecy, particularly Revelation. Most accept Irenaeus' account as indicating that John had his visions in the 90s. They see the seal/trumpet/vial judgements as occurring throughout history & intensifying towards the end; also they see the Papacy as the great Roman antichrist.

It's a position I believed & taught for many years - even preached through Revelation with that understanding, but the questions I had needed answering. Further study & internet searches led to my present understanding.

The Olivet prophecy - up to "this generation" leads to ad 70;
Revelation was written before ad 70;
ethnic Israel lost all significance with their rejection, first of their Messiah, then the Apostolic Gospel - Israel is now the Church, comprising both Jew & Gentile believers, one redeemed people of God in Christ;
events in the Middle East ar without prophetic significance;
there will not be a prophesied rebuilt temple - even if one is built, it will be of no prophetic significance;
there are no "end-times" warning signs to indicate Jesus imminent return.

That, of course, gives further challenges:
What of 2 Thes. 2?
How can most of the Revelation prophecies be explained as having been fulfilled in ad 70?
How did Jesus come in ad 70?

This thread can run & run.....

[Nevertheless]

Those who think God has any future  for modern day Israel are the ZIONISTS!   

Hey LS,  did God just skip over the real Holocaust in the N.T. ?!  OOPS!  You can't explain!

The restriction cuts both ways. This thread is for you to explain your beliefs, not taunt those who do not share your beliefs.

Stick to the purpose of the thread.

[Stucky]

Those who think God has any future  for modern day Israel are the ZIONISTS!   

Hey LS,  did God just skip over the real Holocaust in the N.T. ?!  OOPS!  You can't explain!

The restriction cuts both ways. This thread is for you to explain your beliefs, not taunt those who do not share your beliefs.

Stick to the purpose of the thread.

[Happy22]

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Here is the "abomination of desolation" that the Messiah was referring to in
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Any rational student of Human history knows that the roman armies marched prideful into the holy city with eagles attached to their weapons.
When the Jews saw this, they freaked out, because the eagles were objects of worship to the soldiers.

We know from Josephus that the attempt of a Roman general, Vitellius, in the reign of Tiberius, to march his troops through Judea was resisted by the Jewish authorities,
on the ground that the idolatrous images on their ensigns would be a profanation of the law.

B.H. Carroll (1947) says, "Pilate, at that time Roman Procurator, sent from Caesarea, the seaport of that country on the Mediterranean Sea, a legion of Roman soldiers and had them secretly introduced into the city and sheltered in the tower of Antonio overlooking the Temple, and these soldiers brought with them their ensigns. The Roman sign was a straight staff, capped with a metallic eagle, and right under the eagle was a graven image of Caesar. Caesar claimed to be divine. Caesar exacted divine worship, and every evening when those standards were placed, the Roman legion got down and worshipped the image of Caesar thereof, and every morning at the roll call a part of the parade was for the whole legion to prostrate themselves before that graven image and worship it. The Jews were so horrified when they saw that image and the consequent worship, they went to Pilate, who was at that time living in Caesarea, and prostrated themselves before him and said, 'Kill us, if you will, but take that abomination of desolation out of our Holy City and from the neighborhood of our holy temple.'" (An Introduction of the English Bible, p. 263-264)

To the Jews, all Jerusalem was considered holy.

The desolation was directly connected to Jerusalem and the armies according to

Luke 21:20 (NKJV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."

By reading the surrounding verses, you cannot deny that this is a parallel account to Matthew's Olivet Discourse. Parallel accounts cannot have a different meaning. By combining Luke's statement with secular history, it is clear that Cestius Gallus and his Roman army were the abomination of desolation. It was fulfilled in A.D.66 when the Romans surrounded the city of Jerusalem.

Chrysostom wrote: "For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

Augustine wrote: (379) "Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)

C.H. Spurgeon wrote: (1888) "This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215).

Albert Barnes wrote: (1949) "The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Lu, xxi. 20. The Roman army is further called the abomination on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honours" (Matthew p. 254)

The Roman armies were an abomination and desolating ones to the Jews; not only because they consisted of Heathen men, and uncircumcised, but also because of the images of their gods, which were upon their ensigns: for images and idols were always an abomination to the Jews. Now our Lord observes, that when they should see the Roman armies encompassing Jerusalem, with their ensigns flying, and these abominations on them, they should conclude its desolation was at hand. This was, therefore, Christ's explanation of the abomination of desolation. The Roman army, heathen, with heathen images and standards, ready to sacrifice to idols on the temple altar, working the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple.

"Whoever reads, let him understand" is designed to draw the attention of the reader of Daniel to the passages' true meaning. When ye shall see the abomination which makes desolation spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place, where it ought not to be. In other words when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that is the sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel indicated the meaning of his prophesy was sealed till the time of the end (Daniel 12:9), which is 70AD. Matthew and Mark insert the words, "whoso readeth, let him understand", indicating the meaning of Daniel was revealed by Jesus..


The prophecy in Luke says "armies," not "army," so some say this did not happen when the Roman army (singular), destroyed Rome. If you read the historical accounts, you will see that Jerusalem was destroyed by "armies" (plural). Syria sent over 25,000 soldiers, Arabia sent 6,000 soldiers, all of which were under the command of Rome. It was a multi-national coalition of armies and Rome was in control.

Phillip Schaff, in his History of the Christian Church, gives us a vivid picture of the destruction of Jerusalem. "Titus (according to Josephus) intended at first to save that magnificent work of architecture, as a trophy of victory, and perhaps from some superstitious fear; and when the flames threatened to reach the Holy of Holies he forced his way through flame and smoke, over the dead and dying, to arrest the fire. But the destruction was determined by a higher decree. His own soldiers, roused to madness by the stubborn resistance, and greedy of the golden treasures, could not be restrained from the work of destruction. At first the halls around the temple were set on fire. Then a firebrand was hurled through the golden gate. When the flames arose the Jews raised a hideous yell, and tried to put out the fire; while others, clinging with a last convulsive grasp to their Messianic hopes, rested in the declaration of a false prophet, that God in the midst of the conflagration of the Temple would give a signal for the deliverance of his people. The legions vied with each other in feeding the flames, and made the unhappy people feel the full force of their unchained rage. Soon the whole prodigious structure was in a blaze and illuminated the skies. It was burned on the tenth of August, A.D. 70, the same day of the year on which, according to tradition, the first temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar." "No one," says Josephus, "can conceive a louder, more terrible shriek, than arose from all sides during the burning of the temple. The shout of victory and the jubilee of the legions sounded through the wailing of the people, now surrounded with fire and sword, upon the mountain, and throughout the city. The echo from all the mountains around, even to Perea (?), increased the deafening roar. Yet the misery itself was more terrible than this disorder. The hill on which the temple stood was seething hot, and seemed enveloped to its base in one sheet of flame. The blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and those that were slain were more in number than those that slew them. The ground was nowhere visible. All was covered with corpses ; over these heaps the soldiers pursued the fugitives." The Romans planted their eagles on the shapeless ruins, over against the eastern gate, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy. Thus was fulfilled the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place." (Philip Schaff, vol. 1 pp. 397-398).

The "abomination of desolation" is a past event, fulfilled in the events of AD 66-70. It was a sign for the disciples that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed, and for them to flee from Jerusalem in order to escape the great tribulation which was coming upon the Jewish people.

Frank Gaebelein, in The Expositors Bible Commentary, says this, "Although many commentators hold that Matthew here portrays not just the Fall of Jerusalem but also the Great tribulation before Antichrist comes, the details in vv. 16-21 are too limited geographically and culturally to justify that view. "

Matthew 24:16 (NKJV) "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Keep in mind, Judea has not existed since the first century. So if this is a warning to those 2,000+ years in the future, how would this prophesy help them? When the Roman armies were seen surrounding Jerusalem, this was the sign to get out of the entire country as soon as possible. They were not to be concerned when they heard of wars and rumors of wars but when they saw Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, this was a sign to flee to the mountains.

The phrase in verse 15 "Standing in the holy place," must mean the city itself, for by the time the Romans had actually desecrated the temple in AD 70, it was too late for anyone in the city to flee. The exhortation to flee is given to those in the adjacent country as well as to those in the city. The temptation was probably to run into the city for protection from its walls, but Jesus said, "flee to the mountains." While the Christians fled, the Jews in general rushed into the city, resulting in a horrible blood bath.


Josephus gives us an account of the Roman army pulling back from the battle at Jerusalem for no apparent reason. "7. It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world. But when the robbers perceived this unexpected retreat of his, they resumed their courage, and ran after the hinder parts of his army, and destroyed a considerable number of both their horsemen and footmen." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, book II, Chapter XIX, Section,7)

Foy Wallace (1966, The Book of Revelation, p. 352)."It is a remarkable but historical fact that Cestius Gallus, the Roman general, for some unknown reason, retired when they first marched against the city, suspended the siege, ceased the attack and withdrew his armies for an interval of time after the Romans had occupied the temple, thus giving every believing Jew the opportunity to obey the Lord's instruction to flee the city. Josephus the eyewitness, himself an unbeliever, chronicles this fact, and admitted his inability to account for the cessation of the fighting at this time, after a siege had begun. Can we account for it? We can. The Lord was fighting against Jerusalem Zechariah 14:2: 'For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city: The Lord was besieging that city. God was bringing these things to pass against the Jewish state and nation. Therefore, the opportunity was offered for the disciples to escape the siege, as Jesus had forewarned, and the disciples took it. So said Daniel; so said Jesus; so said Luke, so said Josephus"

History records it, for no known reason Cestius Gallus, suspended the siege, ceased the attack and withdrew his armies. At this time every believing Jew had the opportunity to flee the city as the Lord had instructed them.

Matthew 24:17 (NKJV) "Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes."

The idea here is that when the armies came against the city, they were to get out as fast as they could. Delay might mean being captured turned back, or perhaps even being killed. The general thought is clear and impressive. They were to waste no time in making their escape from the doomed city.

Matthew 24:19 (NKJV) "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!"

Women who were pregnant or had nursing babies would have a difficult time fleeing from the city.

Matthew 24:20 (NKJV) "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath."

To flee from your home and have to live in caverns in the mountains would be more difficult in the winter, there's the danger of freezing, exposure, hypothermia, and the snow will slow down escape. The man made Sabbath rules imposed on the Jews by the Pharisees would make fleeing on the Sabbath more difficult because few would help, and many would try to prevent traveling farther than a Sabbath day's journey. Jesus clearly expected these events to take place while the strict Sabbath law is still in effect. Also, the gates to the city were closed every sabbath day in Jerusalem, which would make escape that much harder (Neh.13:19-21).

The instructions Jesus gives his disciples about what to do, in view of verse 15, are so specific that they must be related to the Jewish War. If these verses were speaking of some future second coming of Christ, none of these conditions would matter. Jesus spoke these words to His disciples and history records that all these things took place in AD 66-70 in the Jewish war.

Therefore, we can clearly see once again that the roman armies did in fact already fulfill Mat 24;15 when they came into
the holy place, and demand with their eagle ensigns, that the Jews worship their own emperor.

This is what caused the first century disciples to flee to the mountains in 66AD.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The 'people of the prince' were the first century roman armies,
and no rational student of first century can deny that they did
completely """destroy the city and the sanctuary""".

This also fulfilled Mat 24;2 which cannot be separated from 'this generation' (30-70ad)

Today in 2012, it is impossible to """destroy the city and the sanctuary""",
because this already clearly fulfilled in the first century.

[Covenanter]

Thanks Happy - a very full explanation.

I posted this on another thread to explain in what way we should understand the signs involving the heavenly bodies:

We should therefore understand the whole prophecy as predicting the events of the destruction. Can we understand the extraordinary events as fulfilled around ad 70? The OT judgements in similar terms make it clear that we can.

We need a detailed examination of Mat. 24:29-34
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

v. 29 "immediately after" is Gk "de eutheōs meta"

de  1161
AV — but 1237, and 934, now 166, then 132, also 18, yet 16, yea 13, so 13, moreover 13, nevertheless 11, for 4, even 3, misc 10, not tr 300

eutheōs 2112
AV — immediately 35, straightway 32, forthwith 7, misc 6

meta 3326
AV — with 345, after 88, among 5, hereafter + 5023 4, afterward + 5023 4, against 4, not tr 1, misc 32

The implication is the following events are not necessarily significantly AFTER the tribulation, but are associated with it - even specific tribulation events if "meta" is given the most common translation "WITH." Certainly NOT 2000 years after.

I'll get started with the OT interpretation of the cataclysmic events.

29 Immediately afterWITH  the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

When the great nations of Babylon & Egypt were destroyed, their destruction was described in similar terms:

Isaiah 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
.....
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
....
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
....
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

That happened around 530 bc, & is recorded in Dan. 5.
30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

The earlier destruction of Egypt by Babylon is described thus:
Ez. 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

Mat. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth LAND mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus has spent the earlier verses of Mat. 24 giving signs of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, which coincides with his "coming" to destroy the husbandmen. We know the sun was darkened at midday when Jesus hung on the cross. Now the days of vengeance have arrived, & in a sense Jesus is in the clouds showing his presence in the prophesied destruction. Clouds showing God's presence filled first the tabernacle (Ex. 40:34), then the temple (1 Kings 8:10-11) at their dedication.

Of course all the tribes of the land mourn.

But God guards & protects his elect - his redeemed people - wherever they are.

[Grappler]

Hmm.  You know Coventanter i may just be a "partial preterists" as you call it.  I, believe that Jesus is coming back literally as scripture teaches to set up his kingdom on Earth.  I reject Dispensationalism, Pre-trib. escape, and the modern Zionsists state of Israel.  Does that make me a "partial preterists"?

We have a basic agreement on the final coming of our Lord.

I presume from what you have written elsewhere that you believe in a continuous-historical interpretation of NT prophecy, particularly Revelation. Most accept Irenaeus' account as indicating that John had his visions in the 90s. They see the seal/trumpet/vial judgements as occurring throughout history & intensifying towards the end; also they see the Papacy as the great Roman antichrist.

It's a position I believed & taught for many years - even preached through Revelation with that understanding, but the questions I had needed answering. Further study & internet searches led to my present understanding.

The Olivet prophecy - up to "this generation" leads to ad 70;
Revelation was written before ad 70;
ethnic Israel lost all significance with their rejection, first of their Messiah, then the Apostolic Gospel - Israel is now the Church, comprising both Jew & Gentile believers, one redeemed people of God in Christ;
events in the Middle East ar without prophetic significance;
there will not be a prophesied rebuilt temple - even if one is built, it will be of no prophetic significance;
there are no "end-times" warning signs to indicate Jesus imminent return.

That, of course, gives further challenges:
What of 2 Thes. 2?
How can most of the Revelation prophecies be explained as having been fulfilled in ad 70?
How did Jesus come in ad 70?

This thread can run & run.....

I see no reason to not believe that Revelation was written by John in the 90s.  To make the claim that all the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled by 70 AD, i think is rather foolish when one reads some of the details of the prophecies.  So i guess i am not a "partial preterists" after all.      

[Lehigh]

Hmm.  You know Coventanter i may just be a "partial preterists" as you call it.  I, believe that Jesus is coming back literally as scripture teaches to set up his kingdom on Earth.  I reject Dispensationalism, Pre-trib. escape, and the modern Zionsists state of Israel.  Does that make me a "partial preterists"?

We have a basic agreement on the final coming of our Lord.

I presume from what you have written elsewhere that you believe in a continuous-historical interpretation of NT prophecy, particularly Revelation. Most accept Irenaeus' account as indicating that John had his visions in the 90s. They see the seal/trumpet/vial judgements as occurring throughout history & intensifying towards the end; also they see the Papacy as the great Roman antichrist.

It's a position I believed & taught for many years - even preached through Revelation with that understanding, but the questions I had needed answering. Further study & internet searches led to my present understanding.

The Olivet prophecy - up to "this generation" leads to ad 70;
Revelation was written before ad 70;
ethnic Israel lost all significance with their rejection, first of their Messiah, then the Apostolic Gospel - Israel is now the Church, comprising both Jew & Gentile believers, one redeemed people of God in Christ;
events in the Middle East ar without prophetic significance;
there will not be a prophesied rebuilt temple - even if one is built, it will be of no prophetic significance;
there are no "end-times" warning signs to indicate Jesus imminent return.

That, of course, gives further challenges:
What of 2 Thes. 2?
How can most of the Revelation prophecies be explained as having been fulfilled in ad 70?
How did Jesus come in ad 70?

This thread can run & run.....

I see no reason to not believe that Revelation was written by John in the 90s.  To make the claim that all the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled by 70 AD, i think is rather foolish when one reads some of the details of the prophecies.  So i guess i am not a "partial preterists" after all.      

There's a very logical reason (besides many others)  why Revelation wasn't written in AD95.  If so, why didn't John, a Hebrew, record the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 as a past fact instead of a soon to take place prophecy?

[Lehigh]

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Here is the "abomination of desolation" that the Messiah was referring to in
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Any rational student of Human history knows that the roman armies marched prideful into the holy city with eagles attached to their weapons.
When the Jews saw this, they freaked out, because the eagles were objects of worship to the soldiers.

We know from Josephus that the attempt of a Roman general, Vitellius, in the reign of Tiberius, to march his troops through Judea was resisted by the Jewish authorities,
on the ground that the idolatrous images on their ensigns would be a profanation of the law.

B.H. Carroll (1947) says, "Pilate, at that time Roman Procurator, sent from Caesarea, the seaport of that country on the Mediterranean Sea, a legion of Roman soldiers and had them secretly introduced into the city and sheltered in the tower of Antonio overlooking the Temple, and these soldiers brought with them their ensigns. The Roman sign was a straight staff, capped with a metallic eagle, and right under the eagle was a graven image of Caesar. Caesar claimed to be divine. Caesar exacted divine worship, and every evening when those standards were placed, the Roman legion got down and worshipped the image of Caesar thereof, and every morning at the roll call a part of the parade was for the whole legion to prostrate themselves before that graven image and worship it. The Jews were so horrified when they saw that image and the consequent worship, they went to Pilate, who was at that time living in Caesarea, and prostrated themselves before him and said, 'Kill us, if you will, but take that abomination of desolation out of our Holy City and from the neighborhood of our holy temple.'" (An Introduction of the English Bible, p. 263-264)

To the Jews, all Jerusalem was considered holy.

The desolation was directly connected to Jerusalem and the armies according to

Luke 21:20 (NKJV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."

By reading the surrounding verses, you cannot deny that this is a parallel account to Matthew's Olivet Discourse. Parallel accounts cannot have a different meaning. By combining Luke's statement with secular history, it is clear that Cestius Gallus and his Roman army were the abomination of desolation. It was fulfilled in A.D.66 when the Romans surrounded the city of Jerusalem.

Chrysostom wrote: "For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

Augustine wrote: (379) "Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)

C.H. Spurgeon wrote: (1888) "This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215).

Albert Barnes wrote: (1949) "The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Lu, xxi. 20. The Roman army is further called the abomination on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honours" (Matthew p. 254)

The Roman armies were an abomination and desolating ones to the Jews; not only because they consisted of Heathen men, and uncircumcised, but also because of the images of their gods, which were upon their ensigns: for images and idols were always an abomination to the Jews. Now our Lord observes, that when they should see the Roman armies encompassing Jerusalem, with their ensigns flying, and these abominations on them, they should conclude its desolation was at hand. This was, therefore, Christ's explanation of the abomination of desolation. The Roman army, heathen, with heathen images and standards, ready to sacrifice to idols on the temple altar, working the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple.

"Whoever reads, let him understand" is designed to draw the attention of the reader of Daniel to the passages' true meaning. When ye shall see the abomination which makes desolation spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place, where it ought not to be. In other words when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that is the sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel indicated the meaning of his prophesy was sealed till the time of the end (Daniel 12:9), which is 70AD. Matthew and Mark insert the words, "whoso readeth, let him understand", indicating the meaning of Daniel was revealed by Jesus..


The prophecy in Luke says "armies," not "army," so some say this did not happen when the Roman army (singular), destroyed Rome. If you read the historical accounts, you will see that Jerusalem was destroyed by "armies" (plural). Syria sent over 25,000 soldiers, Arabia sent 6,000 soldiers, all of which were under the command of Rome. It was a multi-national coalition of armies and Rome was in control.

Phillip Schaff, in his History of the Christian Church, gives us a vivid picture of the destruction of Jerusalem. "Titus (according to Josephus) intended at first to save that magnificent work of architecture, as a trophy of victory, and perhaps from some superstitious fear; and when the flames threatened to reach the Holy of Holies he forced his way through flame and smoke, over the dead and dying, to arrest the fire. But the destruction was determined by a higher decree. His own soldiers, roused to madness by the stubborn resistance, and greedy of the golden treasures, could not be restrained from the work of destruction. At first the halls around the temple were set on fire. Then a firebrand was hurled through the golden gate. When the flames arose the Jews raised a hideous yell, and tried to put out the fire; while others, clinging with a last convulsive grasp to their Messianic hopes, rested in the declaration of a false prophet, that God in the midst of the conflagration of the Temple would give a signal for the deliverance of his people. The legions vied with each other in feeding the flames, and made the unhappy people feel the full force of their unchained rage. Soon the whole prodigious structure was in a blaze and illuminated the skies. It was burned on the tenth of August, A.D. 70, the same day of the year on which, according to tradition, the first temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar." "No one," says Josephus, "can conceive a louder, more terrible shriek, than arose from all sides during the burning of the temple. The shout of victory and the jubilee of the legions sounded through the wailing of the people, now surrounded with fire and sword, upon the mountain, and throughout the city. The echo from all the mountains around, even to Perea (?), increased the deafening roar. Yet the misery itself was more terrible than this disorder. The hill on which the temple stood was seething hot, and seemed enveloped to its base in one sheet of flame. The blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and those that were slain were more in number than those that slew them. The ground was nowhere visible. All was covered with corpses ; over these heaps the soldiers pursued the fugitives." The Romans planted their eagles on the shapeless ruins, over against the eastern gate, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy. Thus was fulfilled the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place." (Philip Schaff, vol. 1 pp. 397-398).

The "abomination of desolation" is a past event, fulfilled in the events of AD 66-70. It was a sign for the disciples that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed, and for them to flee from Jerusalem in order to escape the great tribulation which was coming upon the Jewish people.

Frank Gaebelein, in The Expositors Bible Commentary, says this, "Although many commentators hold that Matthew here portrays not just the Fall of Jerusalem but also the Great tribulation before Antichrist comes, the details in vv. 16-21 are too limited geographically and culturally to justify that view. "

Matthew 24:16 (NKJV) "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Keep in mind, Judea has not existed since the first century. So if this is a warning to those 2,000+ years in the future, how would this prophesy help them? When the Roman armies were seen surrounding Jerusalem, this was the sign to get out of the entire country as soon as possible. They were not to be concerned when they heard of wars and rumors of wars but when they saw Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, this was a sign to flee to the mountains.

The phrase in verse 15 "Standing in the holy place," must mean the city itself, for by the time the Romans had actually desecrated the temple in AD 70, it was too late for anyone in the city to flee. The exhortation to flee is given to those in the adjacent country as well as to those in the city. The temptation was probably to run into the city for protection from its walls, but Jesus said, "flee to the mountains." While the Christians fled, the Jews in general rushed into the city, resulting in a horrible blood bath.


Josephus gives us an account of the Roman army pulling back from the battle at Jerusalem for no apparent reason. "7. It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world. But when the robbers perceived this unexpected retreat of his, they resumed their courage, and ran after the hinder parts of his army, and destroyed a considerable number of both their horsemen and footmen." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, book II, Chapter XIX, Section,7)

Foy Wallace (1966, The Book of Revelation, p. 352)."It is a remarkable but historical fact that Cestius Gallus, the Roman general, for some unknown reason, retired when they first marched against the city, suspended the siege, ceased the attack and withdrew his armies for an interval of time after the Romans had occupied the temple, thus giving every believing Jew the opportunity to obey the Lord's instruction to flee the city. Josephus the eyewitness, himself an unbeliever, chronicles this fact, and admitted his inability to account for the cessation of the fighting at this time, after a siege had begun. Can we account for it? We can. The Lord was fighting against Jerusalem Zechariah 14:2: 'For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city: The Lord was besieging that city. God was bringing these things to pass against the Jewish state and nation. Therefore, the opportunity was offered for the disciples to escape the siege, as Jesus had forewarned, and the disciples took it. So said Daniel; so said Jesus; so said Luke, so said Josephus"

History records it, for no known reason Cestius Gallus, suspended the siege, ceased the attack and withdrew his armies. At this time every believing Jew had the opportunity to flee the city as the Lord had instructed them.

Matthew 24:17 (NKJV) "Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes."

The idea here is that when the armies came against the city, they were to get out as fast as they could. Delay might mean being captured turned back, or perhaps even being killed. The general thought is clear and impressive. They were to waste no time in making their escape from the doomed city.

Matthew 24:19 (NKJV) "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!"

Women who were pregnant or had nursing babies would have a difficult time fleeing from the city.

Matthew 24:20 (NKJV) "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath."

To flee from your home and have to live in caverns in the mountains would be more difficult in the winter, there's the danger of freezing, exposure, hypothermia, and the snow will slow down escape. The man made Sabbath rules imposed on the Jews by the Pharisees would make fleeing on the Sabbath more difficult because few would help, and many would try to prevent traveling farther than a Sabbath day's journey. Jesus clearly expected these events to take place while the strict Sabbath law is still in effect. Also, the gates to the city were closed every sabbath day in Jerusalem, which would make escape that much harder (Neh.13:19-21).

The instructions Jesus gives his disciples about what to do, in view of verse 15, are so specific that they must be related to the Jewish War. If these verses were speaking of some future second coming of Christ, none of these conditions would matter. Jesus spoke these words to His disciples and history records that all these things took place in AD 66-70 in the Jewish war.

Therefore, we can clearly see once again that the roman armies did in fact already fulfill Mat 24;15 when they came into
the holy place, and demand with their eagle ensigns, that the Jews worship their own emperor.

This is what caused the first century disciples to flee to the mountains in 66AD.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The 'people of the prince' were the first century roman armies,
and no rational student of first century can deny that they did
completely """destroy the city and the sanctuary""".

This also fulfilled Mat 24;2 which cannot be separated from 'this generation' (30-70ad)

Today in 2012, it is impossible to """destroy the city and the sanctuary""",
because this already clearly fulfilled in the first century.

Totally clear to me too!

Welcome Happy22! 

Good to see more & more Preterist brethren! 

Be blessed!

[Grappler]

Hmm.  You know Coventanter i may just be a "partial preterists" as you call it.  I, believe that Jesus is coming back literally as scripture teaches to set up his kingdom on Earth.  I reject Dispensationalism, Pre-trib. escape, and the modern Zionsists state of Israel.  Does that make me a "partial preterists"?

We have a basic agreement on the final coming of our Lord.

I presume from what you have written elsewhere that you believe in a continuous-historical interpretation of NT prophecy, particularly Revelation. Most accept Irenaeus' account as indicating that John had his visions in the 90s. They see the seal/trumpet/vial judgements as occurring throughout history & intensifying towards the end; also they see the Papacy as the great Roman antichrist.

It's a position I believed & taught for many years - even preached through Revelation with that understanding, but the questions I had needed answering. Further study & internet searches led to my present understanding.

The Olivet prophecy - up to "this generation" leads to ad 70;
Revelation was written before ad 70;
ethnic Israel lost all significance with their rejection, first of their Messiah, then the Apostolic Gospel - Israel is now the Church, comprising both Jew & Gentile believers, one redeemed people of God in Christ;
events in the Middle East ar without prophetic significance;
there will not be a prophesied rebuilt temple - even if one is built, it will be of no prophetic significance;
there are no "end-times" warning signs to indicate Jesus imminent return.

That, of course, gives further challenges:
What of 2 Thes. 2?
How can most of the Revelation prophecies be explained as having been fulfilled in ad 70?
How did Jesus come in ad 70?

This thread can run & run.....

I see no reason to not believe that Revelation was written by John in the 90s.  To make the claim that all the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled by 70 AD, i think is rather foolish when one reads some of the details of the prophecies.  So i guess i am not a "partial preterists" after all.      

There's a very logical reason (besides many others)  why Revelation wasn't written in AD95.  If so, why didn't John, a Hebrew, record the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 as a past fact instead of a soon to take place prophecy?

Please don't discuss logic.  Full preterist should avoid that word all together. lol  So because John didn't say anything about the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 is why you think Revelation was not written in the 90s?  What about the verses in Revelation that deals with prophecy on a global scale?  To say that all the prophecies of Revelation were only dealing with Jerusalem in AD70 is #1 idtiotic  or #2 not taking the book of Revelation very serious.