The Fallible Assumption of Mary

[Ladonia]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

I am simply explaining the cover. The saying is , never judge a book by it's cover, but  people do anyway.

The cover of catholicism is basically a lot of old men wearing strange outfits, in big buildings, walking up and down at a pedestrian pace, uttering gibberish ,or Latin, then laying off smoke - incense, this process takes up most of the Catholic church service, then 2 mins speech about the great example Jesus is.
For a Catholic he must go outside the church to learn about Jesus and bible teachings, in their spare time.

A protestant church however dedicates most of the time on teaching the word of God and praising Jesus. Anyone can see instantly that this church loves Jesus and is dedicated to teaching the flock, the life of Jesus. A protestant can learn about Jesus in Church and gives them the tools to be empowered as a Holy Ghost filled world changer.

The world thinks the RCC is just a big ceremony, no different than the ceremony of the Olympics. It has no reason to hate it, they might think it's boring or colorful

But the world sees the protestant church, loving Jesus and doing miracles, they think wow, Jesus could actually be real, this threatens their world view.

A Protestant church dedicates itself to a pastor harranging the people with his version of the Scriptures. Then once in awhile a "communion supper" happens, a fake communion supper with grape juice and bread.  And then, in order to increase attendance, some churchs  have "entertainment" like bands to bring the people in. I'll stick with the Holy Mass, just like it has been done for a couple of thousand years, that has as it's main emphasis Christ's sacrifice.

[RaaniJ]

The issue of whether Mary was assumed or not is relevant to why the Church proclaims it as a doctrine.

It proclaims Mary as assumed into heaven because it is true.

Where is the evidence of these claims?

It's not  a big thing really, but it's having faith that the Universal Church is indeed teaching the truth. Just as you have faith that Christ did indeed rise from the dead, even though your own eyes never saw such a thing.

Psalm 146:3 "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save."

I have no trouble putting my trust in Jesus' Holy Church.  "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me". (Luke 10:16)

You should always put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ before man/church. Jesus did say, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." If what someone is saying that claims to be a man/woman of God..what they say have to connect to the Bible. It has to be written in the Bible. That would be their evidence, nothing that anyone has said about Mary...such as her disappearing and flying to Heaven is nowhere in the Bible. God is not going to tell someone something that the Bible does not support. There is very little written about Mary in the Bible, and of course it should be considering the fact that Jesus is all that we should be focused on.

Of course! And the Lord Jesus Christ has led me to hear him in his church here on earth. The Universal Church and Jesus Christ are synonymous, and this fact is most exemplified when we receive him via Holy Communion, which is and has always been the core of our worship service.

That really has nothing to do with what I said...but I hope that you actually listen to what the Church says and then go home and see if what they are saying matches with the Word of God. Because if not, then that is not a church that God dwells in.

And I believe that the Catholic Church matches with the Word of God. What do you want me to do, go to some other church somewhere just to hear a preacher give me his take on the Scriptures, some other church that does not recognize Christ's real presence in the Holy Eucharist? Never!

Sweetheart, you are supposed to go to a Church that has the presence of the Lord in it and goes by what the scripture says. If you are going to a church and what they are saying does not go along with what the Bible says, then that is not the church that you should keep attending.

[Catholica]

Sweetheart, you are supposed to go to a Church that has the presence of the Lord in it and goes by what the scripture says. If you are going to a church and what they are saying does not go along with what the Bible says, then that is not the church that you should keep attending.

Amen to that!

[Ladonia]

The issue of whether Mary was assumed or not is relevant to why the Church proclaims it as a doctrine.

It proclaims Mary as assumed into heaven because it is true.

Where is the evidence of these claims?

It's not  a big thing really, but it's having faith that the Universal Church is indeed teaching the truth. Just as you have faith that Christ did indeed rise from the dead, even though your own eyes never saw such a thing.

Psalm 146:3 "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save."

I have no trouble putting my trust in Jesus' Holy Church.  "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me". (Luke 10:16)

You should always put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ before man/church. Jesus did say, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." If what someone is saying that claims to be a man/woman of God..what they say have to connect to the Bible. It has to be written in the Bible. That would be their evidence, nothing that anyone has said about Mary...such as her disappearing and flying to Heaven is nowhere in the Bible. God is not going to tell someone something that the Bible does not support. There is very little written about Mary in the Bible, and of course it should be considering the fact that Jesus is all that we should be focused on.

Of course! And the Lord Jesus Christ has led me to hear him in his church here on earth. The Universal Church and Jesus Christ are synonymous, and this fact is most exemplified when we receive him via Holy Communion, which is and has always been the core of our worship service.

That really has nothing to do with what I said...but I hope that you actually listen to what the Church says and then go home and see if what they are saying matches with the Word of God. Because if not, then that is not a church that God dwells in.

And I believe that the Catholic Church matches with the Word of God. What do you want me to do, go to some other church somewhere just to hear a preacher give me his take on the Scriptures, some other church that does not recognize Christ's real presence in the Holy Eucharist? Never!

Sweetheart, you are supposed to go to a Church that has the presence of the Lord in it and goes by what the scripture says. If you are going to a church and what they are saying does not go along with what the Bible says, then that is not the church that you should keep attending.

That's why I attend a church of  orthodox Christianity, that is where Christ's "Real Presence" is found in the Holy Sacrament.

[RaaniJ]

There is also no "particular plan" for Mary in the plan of salvation. Nowhere in the Bible is she given a position in that plan.
Absolutely nowhere is she even slightly mentioned as being such.
So there, assumption as well.

Really? And if she had said no to being the Mother of Jesus?

Ridiculous. Are you really suggesting that God's plan of redemption depended on Mary's willingness to accept the offer?
Like when the angel appeared to Mary, all other angels were crossing their fingers wishing: "please let her say yes"...

But now the INTERESTING part of your statement.
You imply that it would have been possible for Mary to have said "no".
If that is indeed the case, then God would not have been certain of Mary's choice...hence Mary could have never been without sin.
If Mary's decision was uncertain beforehand, then her birth without original sin would also have been uncertain.

Yes, God's plan of salvation depended on Mary saying "yes" because God does not FORCE anyone to say "yes."  Nevertheless, God already knew Mary's choice because He knows everything. 

Are you serious?
God has forced a lot of people to do His will.

I admit that in Mary's case there was no force used, but you now really have a problem.

If Mary was without original sin and had to reamin without sin, then God purposely made her differently from other people at her birth.
If Mary was created differently and purposely without sin, then Mary could never had said "no" because saying "no" would have been a sin.
Hence, you could say that due to her "special creation" and inability to reject, Mary was forced into the position of being Jesus' mother.

So, the question if Mary could have said "no" is moot.

Now, if Mary could not sin, then Mary was not fully human, because even Adam and Eve were created with at least the possibility to sin.
If Jesus was born from Mary, then He never could have inherited His humanity from her.

On a second note: If Mary was created without original sin, and she never sinned in her life...obviously she would not need a redeemer.

God does not force anyone to do anything. He gives you two choices, to obey or disobey. If a person such as Mary obeys him that does not mean that he forced her. God did not force Moses or Noah or anyone else in the Bible to do his will. They could've said no..but then that would be disobedience. Being obedient does not mean that someone is forcing you. When a dog obeys his owner, it does not mean that the owner is forcing the dog to do as they command. No one knows if Mary was without sin. I believe that Jesus was the only person who has walked this Earth without sin.

[RaaniJ]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus is the only one that can and he is the only one that has defeated death.

[Catholica]

God does not force anyone to do anything. He gives you two choices, to obey or disobey. If a person such as Mary obeys him that does not mean that he forced her. God did not force Moses or Noah or anyone else in the Bible to do his will. They could've said no..but then that would be disobedience. Being obedient does not mean that someone is forcing you.

Amen to that!

No one knows if Mary was without sin. I believe that Jesus was the only person who has walked this Earth without sin.

I know that Mary was without sin.

[RaaniJ]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

He is the only one that can save us*

[RaaniJ]

The issue of whether Mary was assumed or not is relevant to why the Church proclaims it as a doctrine.

It proclaims Mary as assumed into heaven because it is true.

Where is the evidence of these claims?

It's not  a big thing really, but it's having faith that the Universal Church is indeed teaching the truth. Just as you have faith that Christ did indeed rise from the dead, even though your own eyes never saw such a thing.

Psalm 146:3 "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save."

I have no trouble putting my trust in Jesus' Holy Church.  "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me". (Luke 10:16)

You should always put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ before man/church. Jesus did say, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." If what someone is saying that claims to be a man/woman of God..what they say have to connect to the Bible. It has to be written in the Bible. That would be their evidence, nothing that anyone has said about Mary...such as her disappearing and flying to Heaven is nowhere in the Bible. God is not going to tell someone something that the Bible does not support. There is very little written about Mary in the Bible, and of course it should be considering the fact that Jesus is all that we should be focused on.

Of course! And the Lord Jesus Christ has led me to hear him in his church here on earth. The Universal Church and Jesus Christ are synonymous, and this fact is most exemplified when we receive him via Holy Communion, which is and has always been the core of our worship service.

That really has nothing to do with what I said...but I hope that you actually listen to what the Church says and then go home and see if what they are saying matches with the Word of God. Because if not, then that is not a church that God dwells in.

And I believe that the Catholic Church matches with the Word of God. What do you want me to do, go to some other church somewhere just to hear a preacher give me his take on the Scriptures, some other church that does not recognize Christ's real presence in the Holy Eucharist? Never!

Sweetheart, you are supposed to go to a Church that has the presence of the Lord in it and goes by what the scripture says. If you are going to a church and what they are saying does not go along with what the Bible says, then that is not the church that you should keep attending.

That's why I attend a church of  orthodox Christianity, that is where Christ's "Real Presence" is found in the Holy Sacrament.

Like I said earlier, I hope they follow what the scriptures say.

[Catholica]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

Perhaps you have redefined hate?  There are plenty of people who hate the Catholic Church.  For example, those who see it as a roadblock to their revolutionary agenda.  There are many non-Catholics who hate the Church because they believe that it is the great whore.  Or perhaps you don't think that is hate. 

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think they don't hate them for that reason, they just find them annoying or quaint.  I used to be secular.  I know.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

I thought that people don't hate the RCC?  But other than that, that statement is way out in left field. 

[FireSword]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

Perhaps you have redefined hate?  There are plenty of people who hate the Catholic Church.  For example, those who see it as a roadblock to their revolutionary agenda.  There are many non-Catholics who hate the Church because they believe that it is the great whore.  Or perhaps you don't think that is hate. 

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think they don't hate them for that reason, they just find them annoying or quaint.  I used to be secular.  I know.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

I thought that people don't hate the RCC?  But other than that, that statement is way out in left field.

The people that say the RCC is the whore are usually minority groups of protestants. That message is not well known among the masses.

When I say nobody hate the RCC, I talk of  secular folk. The Islam folk hate all kinds of people, secular, Christian, Catholic, Jew, other Islam groups, the west, nothing exclusive to the RCC, just that sometime the RCC is a bigger and more visible target, as the pentecoast persecuted churches of Christ usually operate underground.

[FireSword]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

I am simply explaining the cover. The saying is , never judge a book by it's cover, but  people do anyway.

The cover of catholicism is basically a lot of old men wearing strange outfits, in big buildings, walking up and down at a pedestrian pace, uttering gibberish ,or Latin, then laying off smoke - incense, this process takes up most of the Catholic church service, then 2 mins speech about the great example Jesus is.
For a Catholic he must go outside the church to learn about Jesus and bible teachings, in their spare time.

A protestant church however dedicates most of the time on teaching the word of God and praising Jesus. Anyone can see instantly that this church loves Jesus and is dedicated to teaching the flock, the life of Jesus. A protestant can learn about Jesus in Church and gives them the tools to be empowered as a Holy Ghost filled world changer.

The world thinks the RCC is just a big ceremony, no different than the ceremony of the Olympics. It has no reason to hate it, they might think it's boring or colorful

But the world sees the protestant church, loving Jesus and doing miracles, they think wow, Jesus could actually be real, this threatens their world view.

A Protestant church dedicates itself to a pastor harranging the people with his version of the Scriptures. Then once in awhile a "communion supper" happens, a fake communion supper with grape juice and bread.  And then, in order to increase attendance, some churchs  have "entertainment" like bands to bring the people in. I'll stick with the Holy Mass, just like it has been done for a couple of thousand years, that has as it's main emphasis Christ's sacrifice.

Thank you for taking criticism of your church in good spirit.
I don't see the problem with taking communion once in a while.
Firstly communion is scriptural and a word used by Paul. Secondly, Jesus only ever did the communion once and Paul only mentioned it once. The words spoken by Jesus, 'remember me' hints that communion is to be done at intervals, even once a year, mirroring Passover, since Jesus spoke of communion on passover, which is an annual custom.

[Catholica]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

Perhaps you have redefined hate?  There are plenty of people who hate the Catholic Church.  For example, those who see it as a roadblock to their revolutionary agenda.  There are many non-Catholics who hate the Church because they believe that it is the great whore.  Or perhaps you don't think that is hate. 

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think they don't hate them for that reason, they just find them annoying or quaint.  I used to be secular.  I know.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

I thought that people don't hate the RCC?  But other than that, that statement is way out in left field.

The people that say the RCC is the whore are usually minority groups of protestants. That message is not well known among the masses.

When I say nobody hate the RCC, I talk of  secular folk. The Islam folk hate all kinds of people, secular, Christian, Catholic, Jew, other Islam groups, the west, nothing exclusive to the RCC, just that sometime the RCC is a bigger and more visible target, as the pentecoast persecuted churches of Christ usually operate underground.

Nobody secular hates the RCC?  I can tell you every proponent of abortion hates the RCC, every proponent of gay marriage, every proponent of artificial contraception, many atheists.  The teaching of the RCC is the world's moral compass, and there are many, many secular people who hate the RCC.

[.:Lily:.]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

[FireSword]

Nobody secular hates the RCC?  I can tell you every proponent of abortion hates the RCC, every proponent of gay marriage, every proponent of artificial contraception, many atheists.  The teaching of the RCC is the world's moral compass, and there are many, many secular people who hate the RCC.

Most of these ideas have come from the west, which has spread like a plague to other countries. The moral compass comes from Christians, not Catholics. In America and uk Catholics are merely a supporting arm of protestants, or cheerleaders. The base of morality comes from Protestants. We need more protestants in these nations, as having large numbers of catholics, doesn't change the culture much, as they tend to rely on the flesh, such as naming and shaming, rather than the power of the kingdom of God, to set the captives free.

[AVZ]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

Correction: Jesus followed rituals as they were commanded in the Old Testament.
But He however did strongly agitate against rituals and regulations added by religious authorities.

A ritual is a ritual. It's either good or bad. There are New Testament rituals as well. I bet you follow rituals. Do you pray every day?  Before meals? Go to services every week perhaps? And in those services, follow the same form every week?

Look, any ritual or regulation added by the proper religious authorities (the Church) who were given said power by Jesus himself, is , well, kosher. If certain rituals were good enough for Our Lord, then certain rituals are good enough for us and in no way violate anything.

And how do you determine is a ritual is good or bad?

I leave the determination to God's Holy Church and as a faithful adherant accept the two thousand years of study it has done on all the relevant issues in a spirit of humility. I have full confidence that the Holy Spirit is indeed the guiding force behind it all.

Exactly my point.
You are confident that the church will provide you "kosher" information, and you must, if that church basically tells you not to argue over what they teach.
The Israelites were told the same thing by the Pharisees...don't argue over what we tell you to do.
The Bible tells us that they were wrong...they ignored scripture and ended up nailing the foundation of their belief to the cross.

So if you are part of an organisation where your hold the belief (either by choice or by force) that whatever this organisation proclaims is true, then it will be very difficult for you to determine what is good and what is bad.

It was Christ who said that He is the Head of the Church and will lead His Church into all truths.  This is why the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth because Truth (who is Christ) is her Head and who leads her into all truth.  So, if you cannot believe what the Holy Bible says about the Church or even believe in Christ's promise to lead the Church into all truth......what then do you have left?? 

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

[Catholica]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

This is from the Church, which has the authority to bind and loose which comes from Christ.

[winsome]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

[Selene]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

[AVZ]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

[winsome]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

[Ladonia]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

I am simply explaining the cover. The saying is , never judge a book by it's cover, but  people do anyway.

The cover of catholicism is basically a lot of old men wearing strange outfits, in big buildings, walking up and down at a pedestrian pace, uttering gibberish ,or Latin, then laying off smoke - incense, this process takes up most of the Catholic church service, then 2 mins speech about the great example Jesus is.
For a Catholic he must go outside the church to learn about Jesus and bible teachings, in their spare time.

A protestant church however dedicates most of the time on teaching the word of God and praising Jesus. Anyone can see instantly that this church loves Jesus and is dedicated to teaching the flock, the life of Jesus. A protestant can learn about Jesus in Church and gives them the tools to be empowered as a Holy Ghost filled world changer.

The world thinks the RCC is just a big ceremony, no different than the ceremony of the Olympics. It has no reason to hate it, they might think it's boring or colorful

But the world sees the protestant church, loving Jesus and doing miracles, they think wow, Jesus could actually be real, this threatens their world view.

A Protestant church dedicates itself to a pastor harranging the people with his version of the Scriptures. Then once in awhile a "communion supper" happens, a fake communion supper with grape juice and bread.  And then, in order to increase attendance, some churchs  have "entertainment" like bands to bring the people in. I'll stick with the Holy Mass, just like it has been done for a couple of thousand years, that has as it's main emphasis Christ's sacrifice.

Thank you for taking criticism of your church in good spirit.
I don't see the problem with taking communion once in a while.
Firstly communion is scriptural and a word used by Paul. Secondly, Jesus only ever did the communion once and Paul only mentioned it once. The words spoken by Jesus, 'remember me' hints that communion is to be done at intervals, even once a year, mirroring Passover, since Jesus spoke of communion on passover, which is an annual custom.

1 Cor 11:26 "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."  I do believe that this means that Holy Communion could and should be taken regularly.

But for further enlightenment, let us go back to the early Church and St. Justin Martyr in about the year 150 AD where he writes: "On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray".

"On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, "Amen". The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent".

What better example could we have than to emulate  those who were closet to the new  Christian faith?

[AVZ]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

[winsome]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

Please explain how the scriptures have been interpreted incorrectly in your opinon.

[Selene]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

How is it wrong and in contradiction to the scriptures? 

[FireSword]

Simple, because Paul gave two choices, marry or be obstinate.

The Rcc gives this choice, but only to some priests and not to others. Why not extend the choice to all priests?

[mclees8]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

Perhaps you have redefined hate?  There are plenty of people who hate the Catholic Church.  For example, those who see it as a roadblock to their revolutionary agenda.  There are many non-Catholics who hate the Church because they believe that it is the great whore.  Or perhaps you don't think that is hate. 

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think they don't hate them for that reason, they just find them annoying or quaint.  I used to be secular.  I know.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

I thought that people don't hate the RCC?  But other than that, that statement is way out in left field.

The people that say the RCC is the whore are usually minority groups of protestants. That message is not well known among the masses.

When I say nobody hate the RCC, I talk of  secular folk. The Islam folk hate all kinds of people, secular, Christian, Catholic, Jew, other Islam groups, the west, nothing exclusive to the RCC, just that sometime the RCC is a bigger and more visible target, as the pentecoast persecuted churches of Christ usually operate underground.

Fire sword I have been a believer for many years. I would say that the years have taken the edge off believers. It is my exsperience that many do not take the whole word seriously catholic and Protestant. I know because i used to be just that way. I was only concerned about salvation but The book of Revelation was a book no one wanted to study or know about. It is to spooky and hard to understand. Yet i would venture that if even one who has been a believer for a short time or just never studied Rev. if asked then to read ch 17 and asked them what church first came to mind I belive they would say the RCC. You see the entity is the most vividly described in all the New Testament . There has to be a reason for that.  The Lord wants us to recognize this church.

But most will not venture to study REV. or take it seriously as a warning for our time or even their childrens time. The general attitude is apathy, and  time has favored the ecumenical movement to except the Catholioc faith as another viable Christian church and the pope as the true head of Christianity.  My greatest concern is they won't even see the antichrist when he rises to power and follow him like lost sheep, and the pope will be there cheering  it all on.

[trifecta]

Lily,

Martin Luther himself believed most of what Catholics believe today about Mary.  The church has always had always held her in high regard.

She hasn't been so controversial in Christianity until recently. 

Please see that, for many, she is a wonderful example of a Christian woman. 
Try not to hold it against people who regard her in this way.

Regards,

[Catholica]

Simple, because Paul gave two choices, marry or be obstinate.

You mean abstinent/celibate.

[.:Lily:.]

Lily,

Martin Luther himself believed most of what Catholics believe today about Mary.  The church has always had always held her in high regard.

She hasn't been so controversial in Christianity until recently. 

Please see that, for many, she is a wonderful example of a Christian woman. 
Try not to hold it against people who regard her in this way.

Regards,

I'm not holding it against anyone. Yes, she is a wonderful example for every Christian woman. She is the mother of Jesus! 

Who cares what Martin Luther say?

He is so wrong! We know better.

[FireSword]

Simple, because Paul gave two choices, marry or be obstinate.

You mean abstinent/celibate.

Yeah, the spellchecker changed it.

[AVZ]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

Please explain how the scriptures have been interpreted incorrectly in your opinon.

Wrong to enforce celebacy. Even this Cathcolic cardinal admits that Jesus never commanded this.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

[Selene]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

Please explain how the scriptures have been interpreted incorrectly in your opinon.

Wrong to enforce celebacy. Even this Cathcolic cardinal admits that Jesus never commanded this.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

We are not going against this biblical verse.  You see.....we never forbid marriage.  In fact, some of the Catholic priests are married.  Married pastors who converted to the Catholic faith are allowed to keep their wife.  When the Catholic Church says that a priest in the Latin rite Church should not marry......that is NOT a forbiddance of marriage.  THAT is a requirement of ORDINATION.  There is a big difference between forbidding marriage and having requirements for ordination. 

Therefore, the Catholic Church is not going against this biblical verse because we never forbid marriage.  The fact that we have married priests in our Church proves it.  However, we can make requirements for priestly ordination.....just like St. Paul did when he laid down the requirements of the office of bishop.  I hope you did not misinterpret 1 Timothy 3:2 to mean that St. Paul meant that a bishop SHOULD and MUST be married.  St. Paul actually meant that if a bishop is married, he should be married to only one person, not two or three or more than one wife.   

1 Timothy 3:2   A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

[winsome]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

[AVZ]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

Please explain how the scriptures have been interpreted incorrectly in your opinon.

Wrong to enforce celebacy. Even this Cathcolic cardinal admits that Jesus never commanded this.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

We are not going against this biblical verse.  You see.....we never forbid marriage.  In fact, some of the Catholic priests are married.  Married pastors who converted to the Catholic faith are allowed to keep their wife.  When the Catholic Church says that a priest in the Latin rite Church should not marry......that is NOT a forbiddance of marriage.  THAT is a requirement of ORDINATION.  There is a big difference between forbidding marriage and having requirements for ordination. 

Therefore, the Catholic Church is not going against this biblical verse because we never forbid marriage.  The fact that we have married priests in our Church proves it.  However, we can make requirements for priestly ordination.....just like St. Paul did when he laid down the requirements of the office of bishop.  I hope you did not misinterpret 1 Timothy 3:2 to mean that St. Paul meant that a bishop SHOULD and MUST be married.  St. Paul actually meant that if a bishop is married, he should be married to only one person, not two or three or more than one wife.   

1 Timothy 3:2   A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Maybe I have misunderstood, but if you are a RCC priest and you want to get married, you cannot be a priest anymore.
Am I mistaken?