Sacramentals

[winsome]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

The claims I make are from scripture only. Satan is always forced to deal with that fact. He may try to toy with those of us who know who we are in Christ who do not have to rely on religious notions, but he pays the price for it. But those who do not know who they are in Christ and do not grasp that they have the authority of Christ given to them, that the power that raised Him from the grave is dwelling within them and that they must dare to use it, the devil will definitely play games with. For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

But you rarely quote any scripture to back up your claims.

Mostly you just give us your opinions

That is false. In this case, my opinions are based in fact and experience, and is supported by the word. Sacramentals are both extra-biblical and anti-biblical. You have no scripture to support your religious beliefs in this area.

Actually, there are examples in both the Old and New Testaments of material objects being imbued with holiness, or the power to rout demons. We have the face-cloths and aprons of Paul being used to exorcise devils in Acts,  and the bones of Elisha beiing given the power to raise the dead in 2 Kings for instance.  If you honestly think that the concept of material objects being endowed with Divine power is 'anti-Biblical' then you clearly lack understanding of Scripture.

I am well aware of these things. However, we have no one the caliber of Paul in the world that I am aware of, who has the heavy mantle of revelation he had. We have all the revelation we need in the word of God and in the infilling Holy Spirit who goes with us wherever we go and is ready, willing and able to work through us as we release our faith. We have no need of articles by which His Spirit will work. He works through His people.

You are like mclees. When you are given scripture you find some excuse to discount it.

[Swiss_Guard]

I am well aware of these things. However, we have no one the caliber of Paul in the world that I am aware of, who has the heavy mantle of revelation he had.

Here again, you display your lack of understanding.  "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul passed on his teaching and gifts to all who were faithful, not just men of 'high caliber.'

He works through His people.

Not always, apparently. He can and does attach His Divine grace to material objects. He was as willing to work through an apron as He was to work through an Apostle.

...and religion is powerless against the enemy.

A rather peculiar statement to come from a purported member of the Christian religion.

[Lively Stone]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

The claims I make are from scripture only. Satan is always forced to deal with that fact. He may try to toy with those of us who know who we are in Christ who do not have to rely on religious notions, but he pays the price for it. But those who do not know who they are in Christ and do not grasp that they have the authority of Christ given to them, that the power that raised Him from the grave is dwelling within them and that they must dare to use it, the devil will definitely play games with. For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

But you rarely quote any scripture to back up your claims.

Mostly you just give us your opinions

That is false. In this case, my opinions are based in fact and experience, and is supported by the word. Sacramentals are both extra-biblical and anti-biblical. You have no scripture to support your religious beliefs in this area.

Actually, there are examples in both the Old and New Testaments of material objects being imbued with holiness, or the power to rout demons. We have the face-cloths and aprons of Paul being used to exorcise devils in Acts,  and the bones of Elisha beiing given the power to raise the dead in 2 Kings for instance.  If you honestly think that the concept of material objects being endowed with Divine power is 'anti-Biblical' then you clearly lack understanding of Scripture.

I am well aware of these things. However, we have no one the caliber of Paul in the world that I am aware of, who has the heavy mantle of revelation he had. We have all the revelation we need in the word of God and in the infilling Holy Spirit who goes with us wherever we go and is ready, willing and able to work through us as we release our faith. We have no need of articles by which His Spirit will work. He works through His people.

You are like mclees. When you are given scripture you find some excuse to discount it.

Enough of the personal comments. Do you have appropriate scripture?

[Lively Stone]

I am well aware of these things. However, we have no one the caliber of Paul in the world that I am aware of, who has the heavy mantle of revelation he had.

Here again, you display your lack of understanding.  "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Paul passed on his teaching and gifts to all who were faithful, not just men of 'high caliber.'

Understanding is not one of my lacks.

Yes, Paul taught all manner of people, which attests to how the Lord empowers all of His people---some who are workers on the churches as leaders and others who are co-workers with Him in the world and the marketplace and workplace.

However, no one has shown himself to be like Paul, who was given a very heavy mantle of revelation for which he was constantly persecuted and jailed and even beaten to the point of death. He was given an unusual gift. We don't see that kind of gift today...not that it is beyond God to do.

It is definitely not appropriate to assign power to objects.

Acts 9:1-12
God gave Paul the power to perform unusual miracles. When handkerchiefs or aprons that had merely touched his skin were placed on sick people, they were healed of their diseases, and evil spirits were expelled.

He works through His people.

Not always, apparently.

Yes, ALWAYS, as the believer allows Him.

He can and does attach His Divine grace to material objects. He was as willing to work through an apron as He was to work through an Apostle.

Through who's anointing has that been done? We need a name so we can check that out.

...and religion is powerless against the enemy.

A rather peculiar statement to come from a purported member of the Christian religion.

I am not a member of any religion. I am Christ's. It is His power that works in and through me as His joint-heir that has any merit.

[Swiss_Guard]

Understanding is not one of my lacks.

Exchange the word 'understanding' with 'self-righteous opinion' and I'd agree with you.

However, no one has shown himself to be like Paul, who was given a very heavy mantle of revelation for which he was constantly persecuted and jailed and even beaten to the point of death. He was given an unusual gift. We don't see that kind of gift today...not that it is beyond God to do.

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing that Paul wasn't a unique individual with special gifts; I am pointing out that God used His power to consecrate material objects for the purpose of exorcism. Paul's apron was transformed into a sacramental, thus demonstrating that such things are not anti-Biblical.

It is definitely not appropriate to assign power to objects.

Tell that to God.

Yes, ALWAYS, as the believer allows Him.

No, He sometimes prefers to work through aprons, if you believe the Bible.(which in your case, I'm beginning to doubt. You're scaring me, Lively. )

Through who's anointing has that been done? We need a name so we can check that out.

God. Yahweh. Jesus. The Almighty. (I'd give His personal address but I don't think that information is in the public domain.)

[Lively Stone]

Understanding is not one of my lacks.

Exchange the word 'understanding' with 'self-righteous opinion' and I'd agree with you.

There is nothing self-righteous about rightly dividing the word of truth. That is what the Lord requires of us.

However, no one has shown himself to be like Paul, who was given a very heavy mantle of revelation for which he was constantly persecuted and jailed and even beaten to the point of death. He was given an unusual gift. We don't see that kind of gift today...not that it is beyond God to do.

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing that Paul wasn't a unique individual with special gifts; I am pointing out that God used His power to consecrate material objects for the purpose of exorcism. Paul's apron was transformed into a sacramental, thus demonstrating that such things are not anti-Biblical.

Yes He did that. He isn't doing that today---in this hemisphere, at least. It isn't necessary, as we are all supposed to be willing to be used of God to defeat Satan when we encounter him. No one is run so ragged and is as overworked as Paul was in his day that these things are made necessary.

It is definitely not appropriate to assign power to objects.

Tell that to God.

We can see that God thinks that it isn't necessary. When His people are willing and able to do the work of casting out evil spirits, these secondary works are not needed. His spirit working with fullness through His children are what He desires. His Body functioning according to His design is all he needs to see, but He isn't about to lend power to objects when He sees people are not walking in his fullness, either. He sends people to do the work of Christ, not things.

Yes, ALWAYS, as the believer allows Him.

No, He sometimes prefers to work through aprons, if you believe the Bible.(which in your case, I'm beginning to doubt. You're scaring me, Lively. )

If He does, it is in conjunction with the successful work He is doing through His heavy-laden servants. We don;t see this because there is a dearth of servants who are doing the works of Paul under his same kind of anointing.

Through who's anointing has that been done? We need a name so we can check that out.

God. Yahweh. Jesus. The Almighty. (I'd give His personal address but I don't think that information is in the public domain.)

You don't know of anyone who is anointed to the capacity of Paul, then. Thank you.

[Swiss_Guard]

Understanding is not one of my lacks.

Exchange the word 'understanding' with 'self-righteous opinion' and I'd agree with you.

There is nothing self-righteous about rightly dividing the word of truth. That is what the Lord requires of us.

But you're not divining it rightly. You're divining it wrongly. So wrongly, in fact,  it's unbelieveable.

Yes He did that. He isn't doing that today---in this hemisphere, at least.

I'm going to need some Scriptural verification for that. God set the precedent, and you've produced nothing to prove He wanted us to stop.

It is definitely not appropriate to assign power to objects.

Tell that to God.

We can see that God thinks that it isn't necessary.

Can we, now? What I see is that God showed us that His Divine power can be attached to physical objects. I have Scriptural support backing me up, whereas you have nothing but the declaration that you know what God is thinking.

If He does, it is in conjunction with the successful work He is doing through His heavy-laden servants. We don;t see this because there is a dearth of servants who are doing the works of Paul under his same kind of anointing.

Again, this is opinion rather than scripture. Where in the Bible does God say that He only gives holy object as aids to overworked servants? You just snatched that out thin air.

You don't know of anyone who is anointed to the capacity of Paul, then. Thank you.

No, actually; I confess I didn't understand your somewhat ponderous question. I can produce plenty of people who exhibited similiar gifts to Paul.

Padre Pio, who was given the ability to see Spirits and recieved the Stigmata.

Lucia of Fatima, who was given visions of the future and was associated with a miracle of the sun witnessed by seventy thousand witnesses.

Bernadette Soubirous, who recieved visons and was associated with several well-documented miracles.

These are just three; there are many, many others.

[Lively Stone]

Understanding is not one of my lacks.

Exchange the word 'understanding' with 'self-righteous opinion' and I'd agree with you.

There is nothing self-righteous about rightly dividing the word of truth. That is what the Lord requires of us.

But you're not divining it rightly. You're divining it wrongly. So wrongly, in fact,  it's unbelieveable.

Actually, the word is 'dividing', and yes, I divide the word of truth rightly in this case.

Yes He did that. He isn't doing that today---in this hemisphere, at least.

I'm going to need some Scriptural verification for that. God set the precedent, and you've produced nothing to prove He wanted us to stop.

Scriptural proof that we aren't seeing these types of miracles today? The proof is in the pudding. We don't have many apostle-like workers in the field today who is anointed like Paul and need to send out handkerchiefs with their anointing on it before them because of the clamor after their ministry.

I am not saying that God wants these things to stop. But we do not have many people in these kinds of strongly anointed, unusual callings.

It is definitely not appropriate to assign power to objects.

Tell that to God.

We can see that God thinks that it isn't necessary.

Can we, now? What I see is that God showed us that His Divine power can be attached to physical objects. I have Scriptural support backing me up, whereas you have nothing but the declaration that you know what God is thinking.

What happened with Paul is not the same thing as your religion believes ad practices. It is not the same anointing. What the Catholic church is doing is practicing out of a kind of mixture of religion, mysticism and superstition.

If He does, it is in conjunction with the successful work He is doing through His heavy-laden servants. We don't see this because there is a dearth of servants who are doing the works of Paul under his same kind of anointing.

Again, this is opinion rather than scripture. Where in the Bible does God say that He only gives holy object as aids to overworked servants? You just snatched that out thin air.

He blesses people with all sorts of gifts, but this special gift is not seen very often because there are not many---if any---servants in the Body of Christ who are called like Paul was called. I am sure that this gift is given to people who are burdened with much volume of work in healing and deliverance and so the Lord calls them to use items in their possession to use as a proxy.

You don't know of anyone who is anointed to the capacity of Paul, then. Thank you.

No, actually; I confess I didn't understand your somewhat ponderous question. I can produce plenty of people who exhibited similiar gifts to Paul.

Padre Pio, who was given the ability to see Spirits and recieved the Stigmata.

Lucia of Fatima, who was given visions of the future and was associated with a miracle of the sun witnessed by seventy thousand witnesses.

Bernadette Soubirous, who recieved visons and was associated with several well-documented miracles.

These are just three; there are many, many others.

Stigmata are false wonders, and Fatima was also a work of the enemy, and I have no idea about Bernadette, but I have my doubts.

[LightHammer]

May all be true, however the comment was that demons hate "holy water and blessed salt".
You have no scriptural evidence that his is a correct statement.

Holy water and blessed salt are made up by the RCC

Nonsense. It's well established that devils hate things that are sacred--thats a basic fact of the Christian faith. And scripture tell us that material objects including water can be made sacred. (Matthew 23:17, Numbers 5:17)

By definition the whole of creation is sacret, and since angels are Gods creation, angels themselves are sacret.
So, if demons cannot stand sacret things, please explain how a sacret thing like Gods creation can be corrupted?

The problem with the RCC is that they take all these objects, claim they are not really powerful, but treat them as if their life depends on it.

I recently was in a Catholic Church in the US. Stacks and stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars, window paintings...you name it.
Yet, I couldnt find a single bible.

That's what has become of the RCC. Gods Word has to be found in objects rather than scripture.

The Bible is unecessary when its interpreter is present. The scriptures are valid as being God's word because they come from God's men (the apostles). We have the descendants of those men (their successors). The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could.

From beginning to end the chronology will unfold until your eyes converge on the altar where a beautiful cross is superimpsed behind a successor of the apostles holding Christ Himself body in blood in the Eucharist.

Superior to reading any day of the week and this is made evident by the rise of the Church over all others throughout the world. The best Protestants can do is hop on the internet and pretend themselves Bible scholars promoting an egocentric version of Christianity where its not "Christ and His family" but "me and Christ".

[Lively Stone]

One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church.

Superior to reading any day of the week

Where is the biblical justification in that? It is precisely this kind of thinking that promotes religiosity in place of one discovering the truth for himself through the pages of the inspired word of God. It's the ultimate 'replacement theology'. 


Joshua 1:8
Let the words from the book of the law be always on your lips. Meditate on them day and night so that you may be careful to live by all that is written in it. If you do, as you make your way through this world, you will prosper and always find success.

[mclees8]

One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church.

Superior to reading any day of the week

Where is the biblical justification in that? It is precisely this kind of thinking that promotes religiosity in place of one discovering the truth for himself through the pages of the inspired word of God. It's the ultimate 'replacement theology'. 


Joshua 1:8
Let the words from the book of the law be always on your lips. Meditate on them day and night so that you may be careful to live by all that is written in it. If you do, as you make your way through this world, you will prosper and always find success.

I can't believe someone like LH saying such a think. I am dump founded. 
Don't need to read your bible just believe what ever the church tells you. All i can say is   WOW !
Was it not the Bareans that tought the best lesson. They did not even take Paul at his word, but dug for truth.

[Lively Stone]

One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church.

Superior to reading any day of the week

Where is the biblical justification in that? It is precisely this kind of thinking that promotes religiosity in place of one discovering the truth for himself through the pages of the inspired word of God. It's the ultimate 'replacement theology'. 


Joshua 1:8
Let the words from the book of the law be always on your lips. Meditate on them day and night so that you may be careful to live by all that is written in it. If you do, as you make your way through this world, you will prosper and always find success.

I can't believe someone like LH saying such a think. I am dump founded. 
Don't need to read your bible just believe what ever the church tells you. All i can say is   WOW !
Was it not the Bareans that tought the best lesson. They did not even take Paul at his word, but dug for truth.

The reason for the complete breakdown in spiritual agreement is because of this serious dichotomy. On one hand we have those who know the word of God and live by it, and on the other, we have those who follow their religion and live by its tenets and traditions.

Never the twain shall meet.

[winsome]

I think I can give you one small illustration of what LH is saying.

"The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could. "

This week, during Holy Week, I went into our Cathedral to pray and meditate on the "station' of the cross". They are very evocative and brought home to me the pain and suffering of Jesus; his great sacrifice for me, the love he poured out for me, in a way that words on a page never could.

Paticularly poignant was the way (whether by accident or design - I suspect the latter), the Lady Chapel had Christ on the cross (with Mary looking on) on one side of the Chapel, and Mary holding the body of Jesus on the other.

[Lively Stone]

I think I can give you one small illustration of what LH is saying.

"The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could. "

This week, during Holy Week, I went into our Cathedral to pray and meditate on the "station' of the cross". They are very evocative and brought home to me the pain and suffering of Jesus; his great sacrifice for me, the love he poured out for me, in a way that words on a page never could.

Paticularly poignant was the way (whether by accident or design - I suspect the latter), the Lady Chapel had Christ on the cross (with Mary looking on) on one side of the Chapel, and Mary holding the body of Jesus on the other.

That's all fine and dandy if one lives by one's feelings. At this particular season, we do want to draw close to the cross, but we must be careful about just what it is we are feeding. Is it the sense of the dramatic by imagery, or do we run to the word of God to have Him speak to our hearts His message of love so great that He would send His precious Son to die a criminal's death for our every sin, understanding anew what Jesus would have been thinking, in His unbearable anguish:

"I must become the thing I most hate in order to destroy it!"

[.:Lily:.]

In another thread the topic of Sacramentals came up so I thought I would give my understanding for discussion.


As their name indicates they are related to sacraments. Catholics tend to think of sacramentals as objects that have been blessed by an ordained minister with a special blessing. But according to the Catholic theologian Marcellino D'Ambrosio it is the ceremony that is used to bless the object which is the sacramental. He gives this definition.
Sacramentals are liturgical ceremonies instituted by the Catholic Church that bear some resem­­blance to the seven sac­ra­ments and dispose the Christian to receive and cooperate with grace.  Each includes a prayer of blessing accompanied by a sacred sign representing bene­fits obtained through the intercession of the Church.

However since the objects blessed in such sacramental ceremonies (for example holy water and blessed salt) persist they are often called sacramentals.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:
"Holy MotherChurch has, moreover, instituted sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy." (CCC 1667)

So sacramentals will include the blessing of an activity such as an engagement or a mission.

Such blessings, whether of objects or actions go back to Old and New Testament times. In Ex 40:9-11 objects and furnishings were anointed with sacred chrism. In Genesis blessings are imparted on children (see Gen 27:27-28). In Acts 13:3 Paul and Barnabus were blessed by the laying on of hands as they were sent out on mission. Jesus instructed the disciples to bless the homes of those who received them (Lk 10:5-7)

Common objects, used by Catholics, that have been blessed with sacramental ceremonies, are water and salt. Water with such a blessing is called holy water and we often dip our fingers in a small bowl of holy water on entering a church and make the sign of the cross. It reminds us of our baptism and is the link with the Sacrament of Baptism. Water is used in the Old Testament for purification. There is even a reference to holy water in Num 5:17.

Salt was used by Elisha to purify bad water (2Kg 2:19-22). Catholics used blessed salt, either on its own or dissolved in holy water for spiritual purification and protection.

It's important to note that such use of sacramentals is not magical. Their efficacy comes from the prayer of the Church and the faith of the user.

Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church's prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. "For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God." (CCC 1670)


Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

I know it feels good when you practice these so called "Sacraments." I know because I practiced most of them in different forms.

Spiritualism/Religion do not offer real happiness and joy to me anymore. I just want a real relationship with Jesus.

Why do you think it is either/or?

Why not both?

I believe LS said it already: They are extra-biblical or anti-biblical.

Matthew 6:24:
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[winsome]

I think I can give you one small illustration of what LH is saying.

"The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could. "

This week, during Holy Week, I went into our Cathedral to pray and meditate on the "station' of the cross". They are very evocative and brought home to me the pain and suffering of Jesus; his great sacrifice for me, the love he poured out for me, in a way that words on a page never could.

Paticularly poignant was the way (whether by accident or design - I suspect the latter), the Lady Chapel had Christ on the cross (with Mary looking on) on one side of the Chapel, and Mary holding the body of Jesus on the other.

That's all fine and dandy if one lives by one's feelings. At this particular season, we do want to draw close to the cross, but we must be careful about just what it is we are feeding. Is it the sense of the dramatic by imagery, or do we run to the word of God to have Him speak to our hearts His message of love so great that He would send His precious Son to die a criminal's death for our every sin, understanding anew what Jesus would have been thinking, in His unbearable anguish:

"I must become the thing I most hate in order to destroy it!"

No, it's not about feelings. Someone said a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes pictures, statues etc. can bring more meaning to us than words.

When God ordered the Tabernacle in the desert to be built he commanded the Israelites to use the finest materials and the best craftmen. God knows that these things can speak to us very powerfully.

I'm glad I don't live in your barren world, but have the richness of all that the Catholic Church has to offer.

[Lively Stone]

I think I can give you one small illustration of what LH is saying.

"The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could. "

This week, during Holy Week, I went into our Cathedral to pray and meditate on the "station' of the cross". They are very evocative and brought home to me the pain and suffering of Jesus; his great sacrifice for me, the love he poured out for me, in a way that words on a page never could.

Paticularly poignant was the way (whether by accident or design - I suspect the latter), the Lady Chapel had Christ on the cross (with Mary looking on) on one side of the Chapel, and Mary holding the body of Jesus on the other.

That's all fine and dandy if one lives by one's feelings. At this particular season, we do want to draw close to the cross, but we must be careful about just what it is we are feeding. Is it the sense of the dramatic by imagery, or do we run to the word of God to have Him speak to our hearts His message of love so great that He would send His precious Son to die a criminal's death for our every sin, understanding anew what Jesus would have been thinking, in His unbearable anguish:

"I must become the thing I most hate in order to destroy it!"

No, it's not about feelings. Someone said a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes pictures, statues etc. can bring more meaning to us than words.

When God ordered the Tabernacle in the desert to be built he commanded the Israelites to use the finest materials and the best craftmen. God knows that these things can speak to us very powerfully.

I'm glad I don't live in your barren world, but have the richness of all that the Catholic Church has to offer.

LOL! My world is far from barren!

The richness of God's word is all I need. As for reminders...why would I need them, when Jesus is living in me? As for the Catholic religion having anything to offer---Jesus is the one who extends offers to me of a rich and satisfying life.

John 10:10
The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.

[winsome]

In another thread the topic of Sacramentals came up so I thought I would give my understanding for discussion.


As their name indicates they are related to sacraments. Catholics tend to think of sacramentals as objects that have been blessed by an ordained minister with a special blessing. But according to the Catholic theologian Marcellino D'Ambrosio it is the ceremony that is used to bless the object which is the sacramental. He gives this definition.
Sacramentals are liturgical ceremonies instituted by the Catholic Church that bear some resem­­blance to the seven sac­ra­ments and dispose the Christian to receive and cooperate with grace.  Each includes a prayer of blessing accompanied by a sacred sign representing bene­fits obtained through the intercession of the Church.

However since the objects blessed in such sacramental ceremonies (for example holy water and blessed salt) persist they are often called sacramentals.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:
"Holy MotherChurch has, moreover, instituted sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy." (CCC 1667)

So sacramentals will include the blessing of an activity such as an engagement or a mission.

Such blessings, whether of objects or actions go back to Old and New Testament times. In Ex 40:9-11 objects and furnishings were anointed with sacred chrism. In Genesis blessings are imparted on children (see Gen 27:27-28). In Acts 13:3 Paul and Barnabus were blessed by the laying on of hands as they were sent out on mission. Jesus instructed the disciples to bless the homes of those who received them (Lk 10:5-7)

Common objects, used by Catholics, that have been blessed with sacramental ceremonies, are water and salt. Water with such a blessing is called holy water and we often dip our fingers in a small bowl of holy water on entering a church and make the sign of the cross. It reminds us of our baptism and is the link with the Sacrament of Baptism. Water is used in the Old Testament for purification. There is even a reference to holy water in Num 5:17.

Salt was used by Elisha to purify bad water (2Kg 2:19-22). Catholics used blessed salt, either on its own or dissolved in holy water for spiritual purification and protection.

It's important to note that such use of sacramentals is not magical. Their efficacy comes from the prayer of the Church and the faith of the user.

Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church's prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. "For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God." (CCC 1670)


Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

I know it feels good when you practice these so called "Sacraments." I know because I practiced most of them in different forms.

Spiritualism/Religion do not offer real happiness and joy to me anymore. I just want a real relationship with Jesus.

Why do you think it is either/or?

Why not both?

I believe LS said it already: They are extra-biblical or anti-biblical.

Matthew 6:24:
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Nothing wrong with extra-biblical.

And they are not anti-biblical.

[winsome]

I think I can give you one small illustration of what LH is saying.

"The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could. "

This week, during Holy Week, I went into our Cathedral to pray and meditate on the "station' of the cross". They are very evocative and brought home to me the pain and suffering of Jesus; his great sacrifice for me, the love he poured out for me, in a way that words on a page never could.

Paticularly poignant was the way (whether by accident or design - I suspect the latter), the Lady Chapel had Christ on the cross (with Mary looking on) on one side of the Chapel, and Mary holding the body of Jesus on the other.

That's all fine and dandy if one lives by one's feelings. At this particular season, we do want to draw close to the cross, but we must be careful about just what it is we are feeding. Is it the sense of the dramatic by imagery, or do we run to the word of God to have Him speak to our hearts His message of love so great that He would send His precious Son to die a criminal's death for our every sin, understanding anew what Jesus would have been thinking, in His unbearable anguish:

"I must become the thing I most hate in order to destroy it!"

No, it's not about feelings. Someone said a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes pictures, statues etc. can bring more meaning to us than words.

When God ordered the Tabernacle in the desert to be built he commanded the Israelites to use the finest materials and the best craftmen. God knows that these things can speak to us very powerfully.

I'm glad I don't live in your barren world, but have the richness of all that the Catholic Church has to offer.

LOL! My world is far from barren!

The richness of God's word is all I need. As for reminders...why would I need them, when Jesus is living in me? As for the Catholic religion having anything to offer---Jesus is the one who extends offers to me of a rich and satisfying life.

John 10:10
The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.

Catholics have all that as well.

Jesus has so much more to give you.

The Church is the "fullness of the one who fills all things in every way" (Eph 1:23)

Yes, Catholics have the fullness of Christ, the fullness of a rich and satisfying life..

[Lively Stone]

I think I can give you one small illustration of what LH is saying.

"The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could. "

This week, during Holy Week, I went into our Cathedral to pray and meditate on the "station' of the cross". They are very evocative and brought home to me the pain and suffering of Jesus; his great sacrifice for me, the love he poured out for me, in a way that words on a page never could.

Paticularly poignant was the way (whether by accident or design - I suspect the latter), the Lady Chapel had Christ on the cross (with Mary looking on) on one side of the Chapel, and Mary holding the body of Jesus on the other.

That's all fine and dandy if one lives by one's feelings. At this particular season, we do want to draw close to the cross, but we must be careful about just what it is we are feeding. Is it the sense of the dramatic by imagery, or do we run to the word of God to have Him speak to our hearts His message of love so great that He would send His precious Son to die a criminal's death for our every sin, understanding anew what Jesus would have been thinking, in His unbearable anguish:

"I must become the thing I most hate in order to destroy it!"

No, it's not about feelings. Someone said a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes pictures, statues etc. can bring more meaning to us than words.

When God ordered the Tabernacle in the desert to be built he commanded the Israelites to use the finest materials and the best craftmen. God knows that these things can speak to us very powerfully.

I'm glad I don't live in your barren world, but have the richness of all that the Catholic Church has to offer.

LOL! My world is far from barren!

The richness of God's word is all I need. As for reminders...why would I need them, when Jesus is living in me? As for the Catholic religion having anything to offer---Jesus is the one who extends offers to me of a rich and satisfying life.

John 10:10
The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.

Catholics have all that as well.

Jesus has so much more to give you.

Yes, the Lord has much more in store for me, but it isn't found in religion, thanks.

The Church is the "fullness of the one who fills all things in every way" (Eph 1:23)

Yes, Catholics have the fullness of Christ, the fullness of a rich and satisfying life..

No, that is not true. You cannot say that a group of people have that. It is on offer to individuals.

[FireSword]

I think Catholics have lost the faith in the  name of Jesus. They have more faith in Mary, the saints or sacraments. This is where Pentecostals excel.

Catholics still mention his name Jesus, but not much emphasize on it

[LightHammer]

One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church.

Superior to reading any day of the week

Where is the biblical justification in that?

Its in the rest of the post that you didn't quote from in your response.

[FireSword]

Catholics have all that as well.

Jesus has so much more to give you.

The Church is the "fullness of the one who fills all things in every way" (Eph 1:23)

Yes, Catholics have the fullness of Christ, the fullness of a rich and satisfying life..

With respect to Catholic artwork, this is not exclusive to catholic.

I personally find some of this artwork, particularly from the medieval period to be a bit demonic, as they contain many demons snarling etc doing evil to humans, painted as the lost. Hardly inspiring.

I think in spirit led churches today, art is making a comeback, depicting heavenly visions and the kingdom of God on earth.

[LightHammer]

Catholics have all that as well.

Jesus has so much more to give you.

The Church is the "fullness of the one who fills all things in every way" (Eph 1:23)

Yes, Catholics have the fullness of Christ, the fullness of a rich and satisfying life..

With respect to Catholic artwork, this is not exclusive to catholic.

I personally find some of this artwork, particularly from the medieval period to be a bit demonic, as they contain many demons snarling etc doing evil to humans, painted as the lost. Hardly inspiring.

I think in spirit led churches today, art is making a comeback, depicting heavenly visions and the kingdom of God on earth.

The artwork is exclusively Catholic at least in origin. The rest are from sects that broke away from the Church and borrowed (stole) her expressions.

[Lively Stone]

One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church.

Superior to reading any day of the week

Where is the biblical justification in that?

Its in the rest of the post that you didn't quote from in your response.

Maybe you should start again. There is no justification for what you suggested.

[FireSword]

The artwork is exclusively Catholic at least in origin. The rest are from sects that broke away from the Church and borrowed (stole) her expressions

Did Beethoven, steal from Mozart?

[Catholica]

I think Catholics have lost the faith in the  name of Jesus. They have more faith in Mary, the saints or sacraments. This is where Pentecostals excel.

Catholics still mention his name Jesus, but not much emphasize on it

You have no clue what you are talking about.  Sorry.  Catholics believe Jesus both created the sacraments and acts directly through every sacrament.  We believe that no sacrament would have power without Jesus being it's power.  The mass is completely about Jesus from start to finish and every prayer we say we say, in or out of mass, is in the name of Jesus.

[.:Lily:.]

Catholics have all that as well.

Jesus has so much more to give you.

The Church is the "fullness of the one who fills all things in every way" (Eph 1:23)

Yes, Catholics have the fullness of Christ, the fullness of a rich and satisfying life..

With respect to Catholic artwork, this is not exclusive to catholic.

I personally find some of this artwork, particularly from the medieval period to be a bit demonic, as they contain many demons snarling etc doing evil to humans, painted as the lost. Hardly inspiring.

I think in spirit led churches today, art is making a comeback, depicting heavenly visions and the kingdom of God on earth.

In my new church we do have an office for Art. It still needs a lot of work :(

I think when I have time next month i'll start something for the church.

I do not believe the Catholic art is bad. The Catholic church has an amazing talent when it comes to art but most of it is about Mary and Saints and other things.

My western art classes I studied in the university were mostly Catholic in nature 

[LightHammer]

The artwork is exclusively Catholic at least in origin. The rest are from sects that broke away from the Church and borrowed (stole) her expressions

Did Beethoven, steal from Mozart?

Beethoven was Catholic.

[Catholica]

The artwork is exclusively Catholic at least in origin. The rest are from sects that broke away from the Church and borrowed (stole) her expressions

Did Beethoven, steal from Mozart?

Beethoven was Catholic.

And much of Mozart's best music was written for the Catholic mass.

Mozart - Ave Verum Corpus

Ave, verum corpus
natum de Maria Virgine,
Vere passum immolatum
in Cruce pro homine,
Cujus latus perforatum
unda fluxit (et) sanguine,
Esto nobis praegustatum
in mortis examine.    

Hail,true body
born of the Virgin Mary,
Who truly suffered, sacrificed
on the Cross for man,
Whose pierced side overflowed
with water and blood,
Be for us a foretaste
In the test of death.

Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor- Kyrie

[LightHammer]

The artwork is exclusively Catholic at least in origin. The rest are from sects that broke away from the Church and borrowed (stole) her expressions

Did Beethoven, steal from Mozart?

Beethoven was Catholic.

And much of Mozart's best music was written for the Catholic mass.

Mozart - Ave Verum Corpus

Ave, verum corpus
natum de Maria Virgine,
Vere passum immolatum
in Cruce pro homine,
Cujus latus perforatum
unda fluxit (et) sanguine,
Esto nobis praegustatum
in mortis examine.    

Hail,true body
born of the Virgin Mary,
Who truly suffered, sacrificed
on the Cross for man,
Whose pierced side overflowed
with water and blood,
Be for us a foretaste
In the test of death.

Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor- Kyrie

I have the Great Mass on my iphone. Truly one of the best pieces of baroque music (if not music in general) ever composed.

[.:Lily:.]

The artwork is exclusively Catholic at least in origin. The rest are from sects that broke away from the Church and borrowed (stole) her expressions

Did Beethoven, steal from Mozart?

Beethoven was Catholic.

And much of Mozart's best music was written for the Catholic mass.

Mozart - Ave Verum Corpus

Ave, verum corpus
natum de Maria Virgine,
Vere passum immolatum
in Cruce pro homine,
Cujus latus perforatum
unda fluxit (et) sanguine,
Esto nobis praegustatum
in mortis examine.    

Hail,true body
born of the Virgin Mary,
Who truly suffered, sacrificed
on the Cross for man,
Whose pierced side overflowed
with water and blood,
Be for us a foretaste
In the test of death.

Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor- Kyrie

That music makes me feel sad :(


Here is a better Catholic one for you:

I've got the joy, joy, joy, joy

[Catholica]

I have the Great Mass on my iphone. Truly one of the best pieces of baroque music (if not music in general) ever composed.

No arguments there!!!

[Catholica]

The artwork is exclusively Catholic at least in origin. The rest are from sects that broke away from the Church and borrowed (stole) her expressions

Did Beethoven, steal from Mozart?

Beethoven was Catholic.

And much of Mozart's best music was written for the Catholic mass.

Mozart - Ave Verum Corpus

Ave, verum corpus
natum de Maria Virgine,
Vere passum immolatum
in Cruce pro homine,
Cujus latus perforatum
unda fluxit (et) sanguine,
Esto nobis praegustatum
in mortis examine.    

Hail,true body
born of the Virgin Mary,
Who truly suffered, sacrificed
on the Cross for man,
Whose pierced side overflowed
with water and blood,
Be for us a foretaste
In the test of death.

Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor- Kyrie

That music makes me feel sad :(

The feeling is your soul longing for God.  This is a vale of tears in which we live.

Here is a better Catholic one for you:

I've got the joy, joy, joy, joy

Heresy.  Joy is not the same as happiness.  :)  Have a nice day! 

[AVZ]

May all be true, however the comment was that demons hate "holy water and blessed salt".
You have no scriptural evidence that his is a correct statement.

Holy water and blessed salt are made up by the RCC

Nonsense. It's well established that devils hate things that are sacred--thats a basic fact of the Christian faith. And scripture tell us that material objects including water can be made sacred. (Matthew 23:17, Numbers 5:17)

By definition the whole of creation is sacret, and since angels are Gods creation, angels themselves are sacret.
So, if demons cannot stand sacret things, please explain how a sacret thing like Gods creation can be corrupted?

The problem with the RCC is that they take all these objects, claim they are not really powerful, but treat them as if their life depends on it.

I recently was in a Catholic Church in the US. Stacks and stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars, window paintings...you name it.
Yet, I couldnt find a single bible.

That's what has become of the RCC. Gods Word has to be found in objects rather than scripture.

The Bible is unecessary when its interpreter is present. The scriptures are valid as being God's word because they come from God's men (the apostles). We have the descendants of those men (their successors). The contents of scripture are poured out in those "stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars and window painting" that you smirk at. One doesn't ever need to look at the Bible if they are raised up in the Church. Walk into one of our buildings and on your left and right priceless artworks will illustrate the work of salvation in a way more elegant and captivating than words could.

From beginning to end the chronology will unfold until your eyes converge on the altar where a beautiful cross is superimpsed behind a successor of the apostles holding Christ Himself body in blood in the Eucharist.

Superior to reading any day of the week and this is made evident by the rise of the Church over all others throughout the world. The best Protestants can do is hop on the internet and pretend themselves Bible scholars promoting an egocentric version of Christianity where its not "Christ and His family" but "me and Christ".

And that is exactly the reason why there are millions of Catholics who do not own a Bible, never touch one and have absolutely not the slightest clue what it contains.
To me it seems like the perfect method to keep the faithful under control.
I suppose there is sound argumentation to suppose that the Gospel was only written by the Apostles to be read by church leaders?