Sacramentals

[AVZ]

Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

There is no difference between the two. Both sacramental objects and devotional objects hold no power and are only symbols or reminders of the believes and sacraments.

This is not true. As one example, demons hate holy water and blessed salt.

I fear you have been watching too much "Supernatural".

It appears your community has had very little real experience with demonic attacks entirely unlike the Church has since her brith as is recorded in scripture.

One would say if demons are not attacking you its because they have nothing to fear from you.

How could you say that?
It's the Catholic Church that has stacks of rituals and manuals for exorcism, so one could argue that since it appears to be obvious that these are needed in Catholicism, Catholics are more prone to demon attacks.
Similarly it could be argued that Protestants may be less prone to demon attacks because the demons know they have an easier prey in Catholics.

Strategy is of course that you attack where the enemy is the weakest.

[LightHammer]

Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

There is no difference between the two. Both sacramental objects and devotional objects hold no power and are only symbols or reminders of the believes and sacraments.

This is not true. As one example, demons hate holy water and blessed salt.

I fear you have been watching too much "Supernatural".

It appears your community has had very little real experience with demonic attacks entirely unlike the Church has since her brith as is recorded in scripture.

One would say if demons are not attacking you its because they have nothing to fear from you.

How could you say that?
It's the Catholic Church that has stacks of rituals and manuals for exorcism, so one could argue that since it appears to be obvious that these are needed in Catholicism, Catholics are more prone to demon attacks.
Similarly it could be argued that Protestants may be less prone to demon attacks because the demons know they have an easier prey in Catholics.

Strategy is of course that you attack where the enemy is the weakest.

Not at all. Satan attacked Christ directly. Christ is not "where his enemy is the weakest". Simply put you carry this shallow attitude about demonic activity as if its just old superstition or that serious formation in defense against such is useless. You might as well be an atheist.

Scripture is clear on this. The history of the Church is clearer still. The Apostles cast out demons but they came across some that even they could not exorcise. When they appealed to Christ He said that the type of demon required fasting before the exorcist would be capable to remove it. This very clearly lays down the precedent that casting out demons is not something superstitious or something any random Christian can do. It requires a higher spiritual discipline within ones life.

That also is verified by the scriptures where a man attempts to use the holy name of Christ and the names of His Appstles to cast demons out. The possessed attacked the man violently.

Saying that someone has been quote "watching too much supernatural" because they believe in things recorded in the scriptures and history of the Church indicates that you know as much about Christianity than the people who made that tacky show.

[DaveW]

It's the Catholic Church that has stacks of rituals and manuals for exorcism, so one could argue that since it appears to be obvious that these are needed in Catholicism, Catholics are more prone to demon attacks.
Similarly it could be argued that Protestants may be less prone to demon attacks because the demons know they have an easier prey in Catholics.

It could just as easily be said that those less prone to attack are those who are not having a real spiritual impact. Why waste forces on those people?

And if one is coming from a cessationist mindset and world view, would he even recognize a demonic attack when it came at him?  Probably not. He would try to assign some physical reason for it.

[Catholica]

Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

There is no difference between the two. Both sacramental objects and devotional objects hold no power and are only symbols or reminders of the believes and sacraments.

This is not true. As one example, demons hate holy water and blessed salt.

I fear you have been watching too much "Supernatural".

Have no fear.  The only TV Show I watch is "The Voice".  And sometimes the evening news. 

My beliefs all come from reading the accounts of witnesses.  And the accounts of witnesses are considered powerful in scripture.  Learning from real experiences keeps our faith grounded in reality.

[FireSword]

So how come I heard it said many times, that the RCC last official exorcism was back in the 50's or 60's.
How come some individual Catholics believe the existence of demons, but the church denies they exist.

[Catholica]

So how come I heard it said many times, that the RCC last official exorcism was back in the 50's or 60's.
How come some individual Catholics believe the existence of demons, but the church denies they exist.

That the last official exorcism was back in the 50s or 60s is nonsense.  The Church affirms the existence of demons, and individual Catholics say "amen".  I guess I don't know what is meant by an "official exorcism" but exorcisms are still performed today.  In fact there has been a movement from the hierarchy of the church to increase the number of exorcists in every diocese.

Fr. Amorth has performed thousands and thousands of exorcisms.  The man was probably 30 in the 60s.

[FireSword]

So how come I heard it said many times, that the RCC last official exorcism was back in the 50's or 60's.
How come some individual Catholics believe the existence of demons, but the church denies they exist.

That the last official exorcism was back in the 50s or 60s is nonsense.  The Church affirms the existence of demons, and individual Catholics say "amen".  I guess I don't know what is meant by an "official exorcism" but exorcisms are still performed today.  In fact there has been a movement from the hierarchy of the church to increase the number of exorcists in every diocese.

Fr. Amorth has performed thousands and thousands of exorcisms.  The man was probably 30 in the 60s.

Forgive me for a lack of details, but they talked about a exorcism in the vatican, where they said satan showed up and stank the place out and since then they stopped doing exorcisms.

[Catholica]

So how come I heard it said many times, that the RCC last official exorcism was back in the 50's or 60's.
How come some individual Catholics believe the existence of demons, but the church denies they exist.

That the last official exorcism was back in the 50s or 60s is nonsense.  The Church affirms the existence of demons, and individual Catholics say "amen".  I guess I don't know what is meant by an "official exorcism" but exorcisms are still performed today.  In fact there has been a movement from the hierarchy of the church to increase the number of exorcists in every diocese.

Fr. Amorth has performed thousands and thousands of exorcisms.  The man was probably 30 in the 60s.

Forgive me for a lack of details, but they talked about a exorcism in the vatican, where they said satan showed up and stank the place out and since then they stopped doing exorcisms.

Sounds like Dan Brown to me.  It doesn't make any sense anyway.  If they said "Satan ... stank the place out" then why would they stop believing that he exists.

But anyway, that is patently false.  In fact I know someone who had an exorcism just a few years ago.

[LightHammer]

So how come I heard it said many times, that the RCC last official exorcism was back in the 50's or 60's.
How come some individual Catholics believe the existence of demons, but the church denies they exist.

That the last official exorcism was back in the 50s or 60s is nonsense.  The Church affirms the existence of demons, and individual Catholics say "amen".  I guess I don't know what is meant by an "official exorcism" but exorcisms are still performed today.  In fact there has been a movement from the hierarchy of the church to increase the number of exorcists in every diocese.

Fr. Amorth has performed thousands and thousands of exorcisms.  The man was probably 30 in the 60s.

Forgive me for a lack of details, but they talked about a exorcism in the vatican, where they said satan showed up and stank the place out and since then they stopped doing exorcisms.

Sounds like Dan Brown to me.  It doesn't make any sense anyway.  If they said "Satan ... stank the place out" then why would they stop believing that he exists.

But anyway, that is patently false.  In fact I know someone who had an exorcism just a few years ago.

Good ol Dan Brown

[Swiss_Guard]

A rite for exorcism is unnecessary. We need to only be in full knowledge that we have the authority of Christ to cast out evil spirits to do it---all in the name of Jesus Christ.

Oh? Try telling a possessed person that you personally have the authority of Jesus Christ and see how that works for ya.

[Lively Stone]

A rite for exorcism is unnecessary. We need to only be in full knowledge that we have the authority of Christ to cast out evil spirits to do it---all in the name of Jesus Christ.

Oh? Try telling a possessed person that you personally have the authority of Jesus Christ and see how that works for ya.

I've done it a few times. It 'works' just fine. We are supposed to use the authority we have been given. The victory is in Jesus.

[Swiss_Guard]

I've done it a few times.

[AVZ]

Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

There is no difference between the two. Both sacramental objects and devotional objects hold no power and are only symbols or reminders of the believes and sacraments.

This is not true. As one example, demons hate holy water and blessed salt.

I fear you have been watching too much "Supernatural".

It appears your community has had very little real experience with demonic attacks entirely unlike the Church has since her brith as is recorded in scripture.

One would say if demons are not attacking you its because they have nothing to fear from you.

How could you say that?
It's the Catholic Church that has stacks of rituals and manuals for exorcism, so one could argue that since it appears to be obvious that these are needed in Catholicism, Catholics are more prone to demon attacks.
Similarly it could be argued that Protestants may be less prone to demon attacks because the demons know they have an easier prey in Catholics.

Strategy is of course that you attack where the enemy is the weakest.

Not at all. Satan attacked Christ directly. Christ is not "where his enemy is the weakest". Simply put you carry this shallow attitude about demonic activity as if its just old superstition or that serious formation in defense against such is useless. You might as well be an atheist.

Scripture is clear on this. The history of the Church is clearer still. The Apostles cast out demons but they came across some that even they could not exorcise. When they appealed to Christ He said that the type of demon required fasting before the exorcist would be capable to remove it. This very clearly lays down the precedent that casting out demons is not something superstitious or something any random Christian can do. It requires a higher spiritual discipline within ones life.

That also is verified by the scriptures where a man attempts to use the holy name of Christ and the names of His Appstles to cast demons out. The possessed attacked the man violently.

Saying that someone has been quote "watching too much supernatural" because they believe in things recorded in the scriptures and history of the Church indicates that you know as much about Christianity than the people who made that tacky show.

May all be true, however the comment was that demons hate "holy water and blessed salt".
You have no scriptural evidence that his is a correct statement.

Holy water and blessed salt are made up by the RCC

[FireSword]

Holy water and blessed salt are made up by the RCC

Yes but they might have merit. When others use healing stones that are scriptural, Christians call that nonsense too.

[Swiss_Guard]

Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

There is no difference between the two. Both sacramental objects and devotional objects hold no power and are only symbols or reminders of the believes and sacraments.

This is not true. As one example, demons hate holy water and blessed salt.

I fear you have been watching too much "Supernatural".

It appears your community has had very little real experience with demonic attacks entirely unlike the Church has since her brith as is recorded in scripture.

One would say if demons are not attacking you its because they have nothing to fear from you.

How could you say that?
It's the Catholic Church that has stacks of rituals and manuals for exorcism, so one could argue that since it appears to be obvious that these are needed in Catholicism, Catholics are more prone to demon attacks.
Similarly it could be argued that Protestants may be less prone to demon attacks because the demons know they have an easier prey in Catholics.

Strategy is of course that you attack where the enemy is the weakest.

Not at all. Satan attacked Christ directly. Christ is not "where his enemy is the weakest". Simply put you carry this shallow attitude about demonic activity as if its just old superstition or that serious formation in defense against such is useless. You might as well be an atheist.

Scripture is clear on this. The history of the Church is clearer still. The Apostles cast out demons but they came across some that even they could not exorcise. When they appealed to Christ He said that the type of demon required fasting before the exorcist would be capable to remove it. This very clearly lays down the precedent that casting out demons is not something superstitious or something any random Christian can do. It requires a higher spiritual discipline within ones life.

That also is verified by the scriptures where a man attempts to use the holy name of Christ and the names of His Appstles to cast demons out. The possessed attacked the man violently.

Saying that someone has been quote "watching too much supernatural" because they believe in things recorded in the scriptures and history of the Church indicates that you know as much about Christianity than the people who made that tacky show.

May all be true, however the comment was that demons hate "holy water and blessed salt".
You have no scriptural evidence that his is a correct statement.

Holy water and blessed salt are made up by the RCC

Nonsense. It's well established that devils hate things that are sacred--thats a basic fact of the Christian faith. And scripture tell us that material objects including water can be made sacred. (Matthew 23:17, Numbers 5:17)

[Lively Stone]

Demons are repelled and vanquished only by the authority of Jesus Christ telling them they must leave. Salt and water are never means by which to deal appropriately and successfully with the demonic. These things are religious creations, nothing more. What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

[Swiss_Guard]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

[winsome]

I copied this out once from a booklet someone lent me. Unfortunately I didn't keep the reference. Perhaps LS should take note of the last paragraph.

Sacramentals are signs instituted by the Church to give grace through the prayers of the Church, and the faith of the recipients. They are the actions of the Church and of ourselves.

Why does God have us use sacramentals?

1. To crush the pride of Satan. For God to take on Satan directly would dignify him. Instead, God uses creatures (created things) confound the pride and curb the power of Satan.

2. God uses sacramentals to give us an opportunity to make an act of faith in himself and to demonstrate his power to do a lot with a little. Consider the stories of the feeding of he 5,000 (Jn 6) of the healing of Naaman (2Kings 5).

3. God uses sacramentals to accommodate himself to our limitations. We are not angels but animated bodies. We communicate by the five senses; our knowledge comes through our senses. That is why the Church uses rites and rituals in the liturgy and worship of God.

4. Sacramentals are an attempt to bring our daily lives into a continuing relationship with God. God uses physical, everyday things, like salt, oil, water, pictures, images as reminders of him.

If sin is a turning of God to creatures, sacramentals are the opposite – turning us from creatures to God.

There are two extremes to avoid regarding sacramentals. The first is superstitions – regarding the sacramentals as if they have magical powers. Superstition exists when we try to get an effect without a proportionate cause, for instance to think a rabbit's foot can bring good luck. In the sacramentals there is a proportionate cause to the effect desired; the power of the sacramentals comes from the prayers of the Church and the faith of the recipient. Sacramentals are not magical charms, they are a calling of God to act.

The other extreme is sophistication – to dismiss sacramentals as the tools of the weak and ignorant, The trouble with sophisticated people is they seek to shape God is his/her own image and likeness. They seek God their way and not his way.

[Lively Stone]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

The claims I make are from scripture only. Satan is always forced to deal with that fact. He may try to toy with those of us who know who we are in Christ who do not have to rely on religious notions, but he pays the price for it. But those who do not know who they are in Christ and do not grasp that they have the authority of Christ given to them, that the power that raised Him from the grave is dwelling within them and that they must dare to use it, the devil will definitely play games with. For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

[Lively Stone]

I copied this out once from a booklet someone lent me. Unfortunately I didn't keep the reference. Perhaps LS should take note of the last paragraph.

Sacramentals are signs instituted by the Church to give grace through the prayers of the Church, and the faith of the recipients. They are the actions of the Church and of ourselves.

Why does God have us use sacramentals?

1. To crush the pride of Satan. For God to take on Satan directly would dignify him. Instead, God uses creatures (created things) confound the pride and curb the power of Satan.

2. God uses sacramentals to give us an opportunity to make an act of faith in himself and to demonstrate his power to do a lot with a little. Consider the stories of the feeding of he 5,000 (Jn 6) of the healing of Naaman (2Kings 5).

3. God uses sacramentals to accommodate himself to our limitations. We are not angels but animated bodies. We communicate by the five senses; our knowledge comes through our senses. That is why the Church uses rites and rituals in the liturgy and worship of God.

4. Sacramentals are an attempt to bring our daily lives into a continuing relationship with God. God uses physical, everyday things, like salt, oil, water, pictures, images as reminders of him.

If sin is a turning of God to creatures, sacramentals are the opposite – turning us from creatures to God.

There are two extremes to avoid regarding sacramentals. The first is superstitions – regarding the sacramentals as if they have magical powers. Superstition exists when we try to get an effect without a proportionate cause, for instance to think a rabbit's foot can bring good luck. In the sacramentals there is a proportionate cause to the effect desired; the power of the sacramentals comes from the prayers of the Church and the faith of the recipient. Sacramentals are not magical charms, they are a calling of God to act.

The other extreme is sophistication – to dismiss sacramentals as the tools of the weak and ignorant, The trouble with sophisticated people is they seek to shape God is his/her own image and likeness. They seek God their way and not his way.

Actually, what you deem as sacramentals is superstition dressed up in religious clothes. Jesus has never instituted these things, nor has the Body of Christ. We need only the authority of the name of Jesus.

Acts 16:18
This went on day after day until Paul got so exasperated that he turned and said to the demon within her, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And instantly it left her.

[FireSword]

I think Catholics have lost the faith in the  name of Jesus. They have more faith in Mary, the saints or sacraments. This is where Pentecostals excel.

[Swiss_Guard]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

No, there are plenty of cases where he actually went away after the rite of exorcism, and the possessed person was freed. Frankly, I question the use of discussing this issue with you when you declare out of hand that any successful ritual excorcism performed by the Catholic Church is simply a ruse of the devil. Your attitude really brings to mind the accusation of the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. "But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils!"

[Lively Stone]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

No, there are plenty of cases where he actually went away after the rite of exorcism, and the possessed person was freed. Frankly, I question the use of discussing this issue with you when you declare out of hand that any successful ritual excorcism performed by the Catholic Church is simply a ruse of the devil. Your attitude really brings to mind the accusation of the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. "But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils!"

I don't declare what the Catholics do as a ruse of the devil. What they do is religion. What Jesus has commanded and authorized us to do is to do His work in the earth. When we are living Spirit-filled lives, we should always be ready to deal with the enemy when we meet him. We don't have to go running to a priest, and we shouldn't have to go running to a deliverance minister, either. We have the power within us to dispatch evil to its rightful place. That is how the believers of the first century lived and that is how we should live.

Mark 16:17
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.

[.:Lily:.]

I think Catholics have lost the faith in the  name of Jesus. They have more faith in Mary, the saints or sacraments. This is where Pentecostals excel.

[.:Lily:.]

In another thread the topic of Sacramentals came up so I thought I would give my understanding for discussion.


As their name indicates they are related to sacraments. Catholics tend to think of sacramentals as objects that have been blessed by an ordained minister with a special blessing. But according to the Catholic theologian Marcellino D'Ambrosio it is the ceremony that is used to bless the object which is the sacramental. He gives this definition.
Sacramentals are liturgical ceremonies instituted by the Catholic Church that bear some resem­­blance to the seven sac­ra­ments and dispose the Christian to receive and cooperate with grace.  Each includes a prayer of blessing accompanied by a sacred sign representing bene­fits obtained through the intercession of the Church.

However since the objects blessed in such sacramental ceremonies (for example holy water and blessed salt) persist they are often called sacramentals.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:
"Holy MotherChurch has, moreover, instituted sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy." (CCC 1667)

So sacramentals will include the blessing of an activity such as an engagement or a mission.

Such blessings, whether of objects or actions go back to Old and New Testament times. In Ex 40:9-11 objects and furnishings were anointed with sacred chrism. In Genesis blessings are imparted on children (see Gen 27:27-28). In Acts 13:3 Paul and Barnabus were blessed by the laying on of hands as they were sent out on mission. Jesus instructed the disciples to bless the homes of those who received them (Lk 10:5-7)

Common objects, used by Catholics, that have been blessed with sacramental ceremonies, are water and salt. Water with such a blessing is called holy water and we often dip our fingers in a small bowl of holy water on entering a church and make the sign of the cross. It reminds us of our baptism and is the link with the Sacrament of Baptism. Water is used in the Old Testament for purification. There is even a reference to holy water in Num 5:17.

Salt was used by Elisha to purify bad water (2Kg 2:19-22). Catholics used blessed salt, either on its own or dissolved in holy water for spiritual purification and protection.

It's important to note that such use of sacramentals is not magical. Their efficacy comes from the prayer of the Church and the faith of the user.

Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church's prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. "For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God." (CCC 1670)


Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

I know it feels good when you practice these so called "Sacraments." I know because I practiced most of them in different forms.

Spiritualism/Religion do not offer real happiness and joy to me anymore. I just want a real relationship with Jesus.

[AVZ]

May all be true, however the comment was that demons hate "holy water and blessed salt".
You have no scriptural evidence that his is a correct statement.

Holy water and blessed salt are made up by the RCC

Nonsense. It's well established that devils hate things that are sacred--thats a basic fact of the Christian faith. And scripture tell us that material objects including water can be made sacred. (Matthew 23:17, Numbers 5:17)

By definition the whole of creation is sacret, and since angels are Gods creation, angels themselves are sacret.
So, if demons cannot stand sacret things, please explain how a sacret thing like Gods creation can be corrupted?

The problem with the RCC is that they take all these objects, claim they are not really powerful, but treat them as if their life depends on it.

I recently was in a Catholic Church in the US. Stacks and stacks of statues, devotional pictures, candles, altars, window paintings...you name it.
Yet, I couldnt find a single bible.

That's what has become of the RCC. Gods Word has to be found in objects rather than scripture.

[winsome]

In another thread the topic of Sacramentals came up so I thought I would give my understanding for discussion.


As their name indicates they are related to sacraments. Catholics tend to think of sacramentals as objects that have been blessed by an ordained minister with a special blessing. But according to the Catholic theologian Marcellino D'Ambrosio it is the ceremony that is used to bless the object which is the sacramental. He gives this definition.
Sacramentals are liturgical ceremonies instituted by the Catholic Church that bear some resem­­blance to the seven sac­ra­ments and dispose the Christian to receive and cooperate with grace.  Each includes a prayer of blessing accompanied by a sacred sign representing bene­fits obtained through the intercession of the Church.

However since the objects blessed in such sacramental ceremonies (for example holy water and blessed salt) persist they are often called sacramentals.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:
"Holy MotherChurch has, moreover, instituted sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy." (CCC 1667)

So sacramentals will include the blessing of an activity such as an engagement or a mission.

Such blessings, whether of objects or actions go back to Old and New Testament times. In Ex 40:9-11 objects and furnishings were anointed with sacred chrism. In Genesis blessings are imparted on children (see Gen 27:27-28). In Acts 13:3 Paul and Barnabus were blessed by the laying on of hands as they were sent out on mission. Jesus instructed the disciples to bless the homes of those who received them (Lk 10:5-7)

Common objects, used by Catholics, that have been blessed with sacramental ceremonies, are water and salt. Water with such a blessing is called holy water and we often dip our fingers in a small bowl of holy water on entering a church and make the sign of the cross. It reminds us of our baptism and is the link with the Sacrament of Baptism. Water is used in the Old Testament for purification. There is even a reference to holy water in Num 5:17.

Salt was used by Elisha to purify bad water (2Kg 2:19-22). Catholics used blessed salt, either on its own or dissolved in holy water for spiritual purification and protection.

It's important to note that such use of sacramentals is not magical. Their efficacy comes from the prayer of the Church and the faith of the user.

Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church's prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. "For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God." (CCC 1670)


Another point is not to confuse sacramental objects with devotional objects such as rosaries and religious pictures which are used in private prayer and devotions.

I know it feels good when you practice these so called "Sacraments." I know because I practiced most of them in different forms.

Spiritualism/Religion do not offer real happiness and joy to me anymore. I just want a real relationship with Jesus.

Why do you think it is either/or?

Why not both?

[winsome]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

The claims I make are from scripture only. Satan is always forced to deal with that fact. He may try to toy with those of us who know who we are in Christ who do not have to rely on religious notions, but he pays the price for it. But those who do not know who they are in Christ and do not grasp that they have the authority of Christ given to them, that the power that raised Him from the grave is dwelling within them and that they must dare to use it, the devil will definitely play games with. For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

But you rarely quote any scripture to back up your claims.

Mostly you just give us your opinions

[winsome]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

No, there are plenty of cases where he actually went away after the rite of exorcism, and the possessed person was freed. Frankly, I question the use of discussing this issue with you when you declare out of hand that any successful ritual excorcism performed by the Catholic Church is simply a ruse of the devil. Your attitude really brings to mind the accusation of the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. "But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils!"

I don't declare what the Catholics do as a ruse of the devil. What they do is religion. What Jesus has commanded and authorized us to do is to do His work in the earth. When we are living Spirit-filled lives, we should always be ready to deal with the enemy when we meet him. We don't have to go running to a priest, and we shouldn't have to go running to a deliverance minister, either. We have the power within us to dispatch evil to its rightful place. That is how the believers of the first century lived and that is how we should live.

Mark 16:17
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.

Why do you think Catholics do not cast out devils in Jesus name?

[Lively Stone]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

The claims I make are from scripture only. Satan is always forced to deal with that fact. He may try to toy with those of us who know who we are in Christ who do not have to rely on religious notions, but he pays the price for it. But those who do not know who they are in Christ and do not grasp that they have the authority of Christ given to them, that the power that raised Him from the grave is dwelling within them and that they must dare to use it, the devil will definitely play games with. For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

But you rarely quote any scripture to back up your claims.

Mostly you just give us your opinions

That is false. In this case, my opinions are based in fact and experience, and is supported by the word. Sacramentals are both extra-biblical and anti-biblical. You have no scripture to support your religious beliefs in this area.

[Lively Stone]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

No, there are plenty of cases where he actually went away after the rite of exorcism, and the possessed person was freed. Frankly, I question the use of discussing this issue with you when you declare out of hand that any successful ritual excorcism performed by the Catholic Church is simply a ruse of the devil. Your attitude really brings to mind the accusation of the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. "But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils!"

I don't declare what the Catholics do as a ruse of the devil. What they do is religion. What Jesus has commanded and authorized us to do is to do His work in the earth. When we are living Spirit-filled lives, we should always be ready to deal with the enemy when we meet him. We don't have to go running to a priest, and we shouldn't have to go running to a deliverance minister, either. We have the power within us to dispatch evil to its rightful place. That is how the believers of the first century lived and that is how we should live.

Mark 16:17
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.

Why do you think Catholics do not cast out devils in Jesus name?

They are not aware that they can.

[Swiss_Guard]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

The claims I make are from scripture only. Satan is always forced to deal with that fact. He may try to toy with those of us who know who we are in Christ who do not have to rely on religious notions, but he pays the price for it. But those who do not know who they are in Christ and do not grasp that they have the authority of Christ given to them, that the power that raised Him from the grave is dwelling within them and that they must dare to use it, the devil will definitely play games with. For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

But you rarely quote any scripture to back up your claims.

Mostly you just give us your opinions

That is false. In this case, my opinions are based in fact and experience, and is supported by the word. Sacramentals are both extra-biblical and anti-biblical. You have no scripture to support your religious beliefs in this area.

Actually, there are examples in both the Old and New Testaments of material objects being imbued with holiness, or the power to rout demons. We have the face-cloths and aprons of Paul being used to exorcise devils in Acts,  and the bones of Elisha beiing given the power to raise the dead in 2 Kings for instance.  If you honestly think that the concept of material objects being endowed with Divine power is 'anti-Biblical' then you clearly lack understanding of Scripture.

[Swiss_Guard]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

No, there are plenty of cases where he actually went away after the rite of exorcism, and the possessed person was freed. Frankly, I question the use of discussing this issue with you when you declare out of hand that any successful ritual excorcism performed by the Catholic Church is simply a ruse of the devil. Your attitude really brings to mind the accusation of the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. "But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils!"

I don't declare what the Catholics do as a ruse of the devil. What they do is religion. What Jesus has commanded and authorized us to do is to do His work in the earth. When we are living Spirit-filled lives, we should always be ready to deal with the enemy when we meet him. We don't have to go running to a priest, and we shouldn't have to go running to a deliverance minister, either. We have the power within us to dispatch evil to its rightful place. That is how the believers of the first century lived and that is how we should live.

Mark 16:17
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.

Why do you think Catholics do not cast out devils in Jesus name?

They are not aware that they can.

And what evidence have you for that? You do realise that the priests who perform the exorcism rite act in Jesus' name.

[Lively Stone]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

The claims I make are from scripture only. Satan is always forced to deal with that fact. He may try to toy with those of us who know who we are in Christ who do not have to rely on religious notions, but he pays the price for it. But those who do not know who they are in Christ and do not grasp that they have the authority of Christ given to them, that the power that raised Him from the grave is dwelling within them and that they must dare to use it, the devil will definitely play games with. For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

But you rarely quote any scripture to back up your claims.

Mostly you just give us your opinions

That is false. In this case, my opinions are based in fact and experience, and is supported by the word. Sacramentals are both extra-biblical and anti-biblical. You have no scripture to support your religious beliefs in this area.

Actually, there are examples in both the Old and New Testaments of material objects being imbued with holiness, or the power to rout demons. We have the face-cloths and aprons of Paul being used to exorcise devils in Acts,  and the bones of Elisha beiing given the power to raise the dead in 2 Kings for instance.  If you honestly think that the concept of material objects being endowed with Divine power is 'anti-Biblical' then you clearly lack understanding of Scripture.

I am well aware of these things. However, we have no one the caliber of Paul in the world that I am aware of, who has the heavy mantle of revelation he had. We have all the revelation we need in the word of God and in the infilling Holy Spirit who goes with us wherever we go and is ready, willing and able to work through us as we release our faith. We have no need of articles by which His Spirit will work. He works through His people.

Articles or sacramentals are merely religion and religion is powerless against the enemy.

[Lively Stone]

What power they have is only in the imagination. Satan knows it and he plays along with the game.

That works both ways. How do you know that Satan isn't playing along with the game when you claim to personally posess the authority of Jesus Christ?

For these people, Satan never goes away, but only plays hide and seek.

No, there are plenty of cases where he actually went away after the rite of exorcism, and the possessed person was freed. Frankly, I question the use of discussing this issue with you when you declare out of hand that any successful ritual excorcism performed by the Catholic Church is simply a ruse of the devil. Your attitude really brings to mind the accusation of the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24. "But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils!"

I don't declare what the Catholics do as a ruse of the devil. What they do is religion. What Jesus has commanded and authorized us to do is to do His work in the earth. When we are living Spirit-filled lives, we should always be ready to deal with the enemy when we meet him. We don't have to go running to a priest, and we shouldn't have to go running to a deliverance minister, either. We have the power within us to dispatch evil to its rightful place. That is how the believers of the first century lived and that is how we should live.

Mark 16:17
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.

Why do you think Catholics do not cast out devils in Jesus name?

They are not aware that they can.

And what evidence have you for that? You do realise that the priests who perform the exorcism rite act in Jesus' name.

You enforce my point. We don't need priests to do what we are all supposed to be empowered to do. We are all priests.

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God's very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

Mark 16:17a
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons;