Judaism and Catholicism

[winsome]

This morning on the BBC Today programme, in the Thought For The Day slot, The Chief Rabbi, Lord Sacks said this:

"When people talk about religion in Britain, they tend to speak about beliefs. Which, for Jews, is very odd. Yes, belief is important, but for us religion is fundamentally about rituals, the things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals. Ritual is the poetry of deed, the choreography of faith, and nowhere is this clearer than on Passover, Pesach, the festival we begin celebrating this Monday night........ Rituals are how civilizations preserve their memory, keeping faith with those who came before us and handing on their legacy to the future."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p016q9f3

I thought this was interesting because it also illustrates one of the differences between Catholics and Fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestants. We value rituals as an intrinsic part of our faith and they do not. Our rituals are "things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals" and they are how we preserve our memories and hand them on. Of course many rituals – the various liturgies – are much more than just the passing on of memories; they are how we live our life in Christ.

Another point that struck me was that this is another example of how Catholicism is rooted in Judaism. Someone said that Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled.

In his letter to the Romans St. Paul uses the symbolism of the olive tree for Israel. The Jews who have not accepted Jesus are the braches cut off the cultivated olive. He says that we gentiles are as a wild olive "grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree" (Rom 11:17). The root he says supports us.

It is not surprising that many Jewish customs and practices were carried forward into Christianity, but given new significance. This does not mean that we have to start calling Jesus Yeshua, or hold Friday Shabbats, but Judaism provided a source for many of the symbols, rituals and practices still carried out by Apostolic churches.  Examples of these are Baptism, the laying on of hands, use of oil and incense, priestly vestments, monastics, various blessings and so on.

[mclees8]

This morning on the BBC Today programme, in the Thought For The Day slot, The Chief Rabbi, Lord Sacks said this:

"When people talk about religion in Britain, they tend to speak about beliefs. Which, for Jews, is very odd. Yes, belief is important, but for us religion is fundamentally about rituals, the things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals. Ritual is the poetry of deed, the choreography of faith, and nowhere is this clearer than on Passover, Pesach, the festival we begin celebrating this Monday night........ Rituals are how civilizations preserve their memory, keeping faith with those who came before us and handing on their legacy to the future."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p016q9f3

I thought this was interesting because it also illustrates one of the differences between Catholics and Fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestants. We value rituals as an intrinsic part of our faith and they do not. Our rituals are "things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals" and they are how we preserve our memories and hand them on. Of course many rituals – the various liturgies – are much more than just the passing on of memories; they are how we live our life in Christ.

Another point that struck me was that this is another example of how Catholicism is rooted in Judaism. Someone said that Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled.

In his letter to the Romans St. Paul uses the symbolism of the olive tree for Israel. The Jews who have not accepted Jesus are the braches cut off the cultivated olive. He says that we gentiles are as a wild olive "grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree" (Rom 11:17). The root he says supports us.

It is not surprising that many Jewish customs and practices were carried forward into Christianity, but given new significance. This does not mean that we have to start calling Jesus Yeshua, or hold Friday Shabbats, but Judaism provided a source for many of the symbols, rituals and practices still carried out by Apostolic churches.  Examples of these are Baptism, the laying on of hands, use of oil and incense, priestly vestments, monastics, various blessings and so on.

Don't get me wrong here. I am not against things that as you say are aids to remembering who we are. I have a small picture of Jesus on my computer so as to always remember that i am a believer following Christ and i have bounderies that must never be crossed. For the most part I am not a ritual person nor do i lean to sacrimentals. But like anything else these things can become just superfical things and acts with no real life in them. It is a great mistake that these things should be mechanical, and relpace a real vital and living faith that emanates from within us. Its as David said in Psalm 51. Thou desirest truth in the inward parts.

[neophyte]

It is good to practice as Jesus did and He wants us to follow the completeness of Judaism which is only contained in its fullness as found in His Apostolic Christian Universal/Catholic Church.

[winsome]

This morning on the BBC Today programme, in the Thought For The Day slot, The Chief Rabbi, Lord Sacks said this:

"When people talk about religion in Britain, they tend to speak about beliefs. Which, for Jews, is very odd. Yes, belief is important, but for us religion is fundamentally about rituals, the things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals. Ritual is the poetry of deed, the choreography of faith, and nowhere is this clearer than on Passover, Pesach, the festival we begin celebrating this Monday night........ Rituals are how civilizations preserve their memory, keeping faith with those who came before us and handing on their legacy to the future."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p016q9f3

I thought this was interesting because it also illustrates one of the differences between Catholics and Fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestants. We value rituals as an intrinsic part of our faith and they do not. Our rituals are "things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals" and they are how we preserve our memories and hand them on. Of course many rituals – the various liturgies – are much more than just the passing on of memories; they are how we live our life in Christ.

Another point that struck me was that this is another example of how Catholicism is rooted in Judaism. Someone said that Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled.

In his letter to the Romans St. Paul uses the symbolism of the olive tree for Israel. The Jews who have not accepted Jesus are the braches cut off the cultivated olive. He says that we gentiles are as a wild olive "grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree" (Rom 11:17). The root he says supports us.

It is not surprising that many Jewish customs and practices were carried forward into Christianity, but given new significance. This does not mean that we have to start calling Jesus Yeshua, or hold Friday Shabbats, but Judaism provided a source for many of the symbols, rituals and practices still carried out by Apostolic churches.  Examples of these are Baptism, the laying on of hands, use of oil and incense, priestly vestments, monastics, various blessings and so on.

Don't get me wrong here. I am not against things that as you say are aids to remembering who we are. I have a small picture of Jesus on my computer so as to always remember that i am a believer following Christ and i have bounderies that must never be crossed. For the most part I am not a ritual person nor do i lean to sacrimentals. But like anything else these things can become just superfical things and acts with no real life in them. It is a great mistake that these things should be mechanical, and relpace a real vital and living faith that emanates from within us. Its as David said in Psalm 51. Thou desirest truth in the inward parts.

I agree. Sacramentals, rituals, set prayers can become superficial and mechanical. We have to be aware of that and make sure it doesn't happen.

[FireSword]

No one supports the Jews more than Fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestants. Thank the Lord for Evangelists a great and mighty work indeed and no man can take this away.

[AVZ]

This morning on the BBC Today programme, in the Thought For The Day slot, The Chief Rabbi, Lord Sacks said this:

"When people talk about religion in Britain, they tend to speak about beliefs. Which, for Jews, is very odd. Yes, belief is important, but for us religion is fundamentally about rituals, the things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals. Ritual is the poetry of deed, the choreography of faith, and nowhere is this clearer than on Passover, Pesach, the festival we begin celebrating this Monday night........ Rituals are how civilizations preserve their memory, keeping faith with those who came before us and handing on their legacy to the future."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p016q9f3

I thought this was interesting because it also illustrates one of the differences between Catholics and Fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestants. We value rituals as an intrinsic part of our faith and they do not. Our rituals are "things we do together as an expression of collective memory and shared ideals" and they are how we preserve our memories and hand them on. Of course many rituals – the various liturgies – are much more than just the passing on of memories; they are how we live our life in Christ.

Another point that struck me was that this is another example of how Catholicism is rooted in Judaism. Someone said that Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled.

In his letter to the Romans St. Paul uses the symbolism of the olive tree for Israel. The Jews who have not accepted Jesus are the braches cut off the cultivated olive. He says that we gentiles are as a wild olive "grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree" (Rom 11:17). The root he says supports us.

It is not surprising that many Jewish customs and practices were carried forward into Christianity, but given new significance. This does not mean that we have to start calling Jesus Yeshua, or hold Friday Shabbats, but Judaism provided a source for many of the symbols, rituals and practices still carried out by Apostolic churches.  Examples of these are Baptism, the laying on of hands, use of oil and incense, priestly vestments, monastics, various blessings and so on.

Pesach is a typical Jewish festival with some typical Jewish rituals in it, however baptism, laying on of hands, use of oil and incense, priestly vestmanes, monastics and blessings are not.
In fact very little typical Jewish expressions and rituals made it into the Apostolic churches. Main reason for this is that being Jewish was considered a bad thing during the early years of the church.

Surely Christianity (not only Catholicism) is rooted in Judaism, but to say that Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled is a bit far-fetched.

[k-pappy]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

[FireSword]

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

We as in gentles, The Jews continued their practices, including Peter.

I think Paul preached against self righteousness, where the Jews believed keeping he laws would make them righteous. But unlike Moses, Abraham and the prophets God was far from their hearts, as Jesus said to them, your fathers killed the prophets, and you build their sepulchers.

Notice Jesus did not call the Jewish temple an abomination or defunct, but called it my Fathers house.

[mclees8]

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

We as in gentles, The Jews continued their practices, including Peter.

I think Paul preached against self righteousness, where the Jews believed keeping he laws would make them righteous. But unlike Moses, Abraham and the prophets God was far from their hearts, as Jesus said to them, your fathers killed the prophets, and you build their sepulchers.

Notice Jesus did not call the Jewish temple an abomination or defunct, but called it my Fathers house.

I disagree. I believe it was from the moment the vail was torn the Old Testament priest hood became defunct. We were then no more under the condemnation of the law.  Jesus also said of the Temple that not one stone shall be left on another. The temple was destroyed in AD70

[winsome]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

[mclees8]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

Winsome who do you supose this person is in 1:13? Where is this all taking place. ? Also in 5:8 What is taking place and where is taking place.  We are not robbers of His glory by establishing a copy of the old testament priest hood or the vision of the spiritual kingdom of God. Peter to whom you supose to be the first pope was no copy cat of this show of authority.
Do not justify the papacy and your religious order with this. Our relation ship is one of true worship and there is no place for arrogance and religioius pride, or hows of earthly authority.

[winsome]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

Winsome who do you supose this person is in 1:13? Where is this all taking place. ? Also in 5:8 What is taking place and where is taking place.  We are not robbers of His glory by establishing a copy of the old testament priest hood or the vision of the spiritual kingdom of God. Peter to whom you supose to be the first pope was no copy cat of this show of authority.
Do not justify the papacy and your religious order with this. Our relation ship is one of true worship and there is no place for arrogance and religioius pride, or hows of earthly authority.

Of course I know who is referred to in Rev 1:13; our High Priest, wearing a robe and a sash just as his priests on earth do.

How is it robbing Jesus of his glory? You make no sense.

If incense is used in heaven what is wrong with using it on earth just as the Jews did? Remember the Temple was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary.

Earthly authority is where Jesus gave it - to his apostles and their successors.

[Amo]

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Dan 8:9-14 (KJV)

[mclees8]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

Winsome who do you supose this person is in 1:13? Where is this all taking place. ? Also in 5:8 What is taking place and where is taking place.  We are not robbers of His glory by establishing a copy of the old testament priest hood or the vision of the spiritual kingdom of God. Peter to whom you supose to be the first pope was no copy cat of this show of authority.
Do not justify the papacy and your religious order with this. Our relation ship is one of true worship and there is no place for arrogance and religioius pride, or hows of earthly authority.

Of course I know who is referred to in Rev 1:13; our High Priest, wearing a robe and a sash just as his priests on earth do.

How is it robbing Jesus of his glory? You make no sense.

If incense is used in heaven what is wrong with using it on earth just as the Jews did? Remember the Temple was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary.

Earthly authority is where Jesus gave it - to his apostles and their successors.

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood. Revelation had not been written yet so they had no knowledge of the heavenly vision of John.  Do we see any of it in the book of acts or teaching in the epistles of the apostles When did the church first prescribe to all this?

If not then why not?  After all you say this is all of the authority that Jesus established. So back it up. 

[winsome]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

Winsome who do you supose this person is in 1:13? Where is this all taking place. ? Also in 5:8 What is taking place and where is taking place.  We are not robbers of His glory by establishing a copy of the old testament priest hood or the vision of the spiritual kingdom of God. Peter to whom you supose to be the first pope was no copy cat of this show of authority.
Do not justify the papacy and your religious order with this. Our relation ship is one of true worship and there is no place for arrogance and religioius pride, or hows of earthly authority.

Of course I know who is referred to in Rev 1:13; our High Priest, wearing a robe and a sash just as his priests on earth do.

How is it robbing Jesus of his glory? You make no sense.

If incense is used in heaven what is wrong with using it on earth just as the Jews did? Remember the Temple was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary.

Earthly authority is where Jesus gave it - to his apostles and their successors.

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood. Revelation had not been written yet so they had no knowledge of the heavenly vision of John.  Do we see any of it in the book of acts or teaching in the epistles of the apostles When did the church first prescribe to all this?

If not then why not?  After all you say this is all of the authority that Jesus established. So back it up. 

Are you suggesting that the early Church knew nothing until the epistles and book of Revelation were written?

This is a sola scriptura mindset; that nothing is known unless it it written in scripture and nothing is true ubless it is expicitly written in scripture. It is an unbiblical mindset.

Jesus instituted the NT priesthood at the Last Supper, which itself was a Jewish feast.

I'm not saying that Catholic vestments are copies of Jewish ones. They comes from the Greco-Roman dress. From early writing it seems that special clothes were set aside from everyday use. Our priests wear an alb which is a long white robe and a stole (like a sash) just as in Rev1:13.

Moreover the role of Peter looks back toIsaiah 22: 20-23 when God deposes Shebna as the master of the palace and installs Heliakim instead:In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle [or sash] on hiim
 

[k-pappy]

winsome, Paul said that if you try to keep even a small part of the Jewish customs, than you must keep the entire law. 

Also, though it was not in the scriptures I quoted above, Paul publically rebuked Peter for disassociating himself from the gentiles and adhering to Jewish customs when the "Judaizers" visited.

[neophyte]

BondServant, Peter's actions had to do with matters of discipline, not with issues of faith or morals.
Furthermore, the problem was Peter's actions, not his teaching. Paul acknowledged that Peter very well knew the correct teaching (Gal. 2:12–13). The problem was that he wasn't living up to his own teaching. Thus, in this instance, Peter was not doing any teaching; much less was he solemnly defining a matter of faith or morals.

[winsome]

winsome, Paul said that if you try to keep even a small part of the Jewish customs, than you must keep the entire law. 

I don't see you quoting that. I see you quoting Paul referring to the Jewish law. Paul himself kept some Jewish customs, for example Acts 21:26.

Moreover I said in the OP "It is not surprising that many Jewish customs and practices were carried forward into Christianity, but given new significance."
We are not trying to be Jews. We are bringing forward that which is good and useful.
"Then every scribe who has been instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings from his storeroom both the new and the old." (Mt 13:52).
There is good in the old to bring forward, but again as I said in the OP, with new significance

Also, though it was not in the scriptures I quoted above, Paul publically rebuked Peter for disassociating himself from the gentiles and adhering to Jewish customs when the "Judaizers" visited.

And quite right but I'm not suggesting that we dissociate ourselved from gentiles and return to Judaism.

[DaveW]

Also, though it was not in the scriptures I quoted above, Paul publically rebuked Peter for disassociating himself from the gentiles and adhering to Jewish customs when the "Judaizers" visited.

It was NOT a rebuke for keeping Jewish custom.  Read the text more closely. It was a rebuke for 2 things:

1) dissing his gentile brothers
2) duplicity -trying to put on a "good show" only when the judaizers were there.

[mclees8]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

Winsome who do you supose this person is in 1:13? Where is this all taking place. ? Also in 5:8 What is taking place and where is taking place.  We are not robbers of His glory by establishing a copy of the old testament priest hood or the vision of the spiritual kingdom of God. Peter to whom you supose to be the first pope was no copy cat of this show of authority.
Do not justify the papacy and your religious order with this. Our relation ship is one of true worship and there is no place for arrogance and religioius pride, or hows of earthly authority.

Of course I know who is referred to in Rev 1:13; our High Priest, wearing a robe and a sash just as his priests on earth do.

How is it robbing Jesus of his glory? You make no sense.

If incense is used in heaven what is wrong with using it on earth just as the Jews did? Remember the Temple was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary.

Earthly authority is where Jesus gave it - to his apostles and their successors.

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood. Revelation had not been written yet so they had no knowledge of the heavenly vision of John.  Do we see any of it in the book of acts or teaching in the epistles of the apostles When did the church first prescribe to all this?

If not then why not?  After all you say this is all of the authority that Jesus established. So back it up. 

Are you suggesting that the early Church knew nothing until the epistles and book of Revelation were written?

This is a sola scriptura mindset; that nothing is known unless it it written in scripture and nothing is true ubless it is expicitly written in scripture. It is an unbiblical mindset.

Jesus instituted the NT priesthood at the Last Supper, which itself was a Jewish feast.

I'm not saying that Catholic vestments are copies of Jewish ones. They comes from the Greco-Roman dress. From early writing it seems that special clothes were set aside from everyday use. Our priests wear an alb which is a long white robe and a stole (like a sash) just as in Rev1:13.

Moreover the role of Peter looks back toIsaiah 22: 20-23 when God deposes Shebna as the master of the palace and installs Heliakim instead:In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle [or sash] on hiim
 

Are you then saying that they did prescibe to ritual Robes and insense just because you deny sola scriptura.  Are you saying that all the deciples knew the vision of John . Please give me a brake. I will ask again

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood.

[winsome]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

Winsome who do you supose this person is in 1:13? Where is this all taking place. ? Also in 5:8 What is taking place and where is taking place.  We are not robbers of His glory by establishing a copy of the old testament priest hood or the vision of the spiritual kingdom of God. Peter to whom you supose to be the first pope was no copy cat of this show of authority.
Do not justify the papacy and your religious order with this. Our relation ship is one of true worship and there is no place for arrogance and religioius pride, or hows of earthly authority.

Of course I know who is referred to in Rev 1:13; our High Priest, wearing a robe and a sash just as his priests on earth do.

How is it robbing Jesus of his glory? You make no sense.

If incense is used in heaven what is wrong with using it on earth just as the Jews did? Remember the Temple was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary.

Earthly authority is where Jesus gave it - to his apostles and their successors.

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood. Revelation had not been written yet so they had no knowledge of the heavenly vision of John.  Do we see any of it in the book of acts or teaching in the epistles of the apostles When did the church first prescribe to all this?

If not then why not?  After all you say this is all of the authority that Jesus established. So back it up. 

Are you suggesting that the early Church knew nothing until the epistles and book of Revelation were written?

This is a sola scriptura mindset; that nothing is known unless it it written in scripture and nothing is true ubless it is expicitly written in scripture. It is an unbiblical mindset.

Jesus instituted the NT priesthood at the Last Supper, which itself was a Jewish feast.

I'm not saying that Catholic vestments are copies of Jewish ones. They comes from the Greco-Roman dress. From early writing it seems that special clothes were set aside from everyday use. Our priests wear an alb which is a long white robe and a stole (like a sash) just as in Rev1:13.

Moreover the role of Peter looks back toIsaiah 22: 20-23 when God deposes Shebna as the master of the palace and installs Heliakim instead:In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle [or sash] on hiim
 

Are you then saying that they did prescibe to ritual Robes and insense just because you deny sola scriptura.  Are you saying that all the deciples knew the vision of John . Please give me a brake. I will ask again

No, I didn't say that. I don't know how you get that out of what I actually said.

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood.

As I said "This is a sola scriptura mindset; that nothing is known unless it it written in scripture and nothing is true ubless it is expicitly written in scripture. It is an unbiblical mindset."

[LightHammer]

winsome, Paul said that if you try to keep even a small part of the Jewish customs, than you must keep the entire law. 

Also, though it was not in the scriptures I quoted above, Paul publically rebuked Peter for disassociating himself from the gentiles and adhering to Jewish customs when the "Judaizers" visited.

Paul never said that anyway.

[mclees8]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

We are not to carry on the customs/traditions/laws of the Jews.  Paul preached against the Judaizers everywhere he went.  I don't think the Bible can be more clear:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul preached that we are not to keep the Jewish LAW. That was applicable to the Old Covenant and we live under the new covenant.
I don't see Paul preaching against Jewish practices such as the use of incense, oil, laying on of hands and baptism.

Jesus gave baptism a new meaning and commanded it (Mt 28:19)
Paul commanded baptism for the 12 men at Ephesus and then laid hands on them (Acts 10:5-6)).
James recommended anointing with oil (Jas 5:14)
We see incense in Rev 5:8 and priestly vestments in Rev 1:13

Winsome who do you supose this person is in 1:13? Where is this all taking place. ? Also in 5:8 What is taking place and where is taking place.  We are not robbers of His glory by establishing a copy of the old testament priest hood or the vision of the spiritual kingdom of God. Peter to whom you supose to be the first pope was no copy cat of this show of authority.
Do not justify the papacy and your religious order with this. Our relation ship is one of true worship and there is no place for arrogance and religioius pride, or hows of earthly authority.

Of course I know who is referred to in Rev 1:13; our High Priest, wearing a robe and a sash just as his priests on earth do.

How is it robbing Jesus of his glory? You make no sense.

If incense is used in heaven what is wrong with using it on earth just as the Jews did? Remember the Temple was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary.

Earthly authority is where Jesus gave it - to his apostles and their successors.

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood. Revelation had not been written yet so they had no knowledge of the heavenly vision of John.  Do we see any of it in the book of acts or teaching in the epistles of the apostles When did the church first prescribe to all this?

If not then why not?  After all you say this is all of the authority that Jesus established. So back it up. 

Are you suggesting that the early Church knew nothing until the epistles and book of Revelation were written?

This is a sola scriptura mindset; that nothing is known unless it it written in scripture and nothing is true ubless it is expicitly written in scripture. It is an unbiblical mindset.

Jesus instituted the NT priesthood at the Last Supper, which itself was a Jewish feast.

I'm not saying that Catholic vestments are copies of Jewish ones. They comes from the Greco-Roman dress. From early writing it seems that special clothes were set aside from everyday use. Our priests wear an alb which is a long white robe and a stole (like a sash) just as in Rev1:13.

Moreover the role of Peter looks back toIsaiah 22: 20-23 when God deposes Shebna as the master of the palace and installs Heliakim instead:In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle [or sash] on hiim
 

Are you then saying that they did prescibe to ritual Robes and insense just because you deny sola scriptura.  Are you saying that all the deciples knew the vision of John . Please give me a brake. I will ask again

No, I didn't say that. I don't know how you get that out of what I actually said.

The first authority of the earthly visible church founded by Jesus with the twelve, and  Peter being the first pope according to your beleif, did they prescribe to all this practice? please show the scripture that they prescibed to  Robes and ensense or any of the practice of the Old Testament priest hood.

As I said "This is a sola scriptura mindset; that nothing is known unless it it written in scripture and nothing is true ubless it is expicitly written in scripture. It is an unbiblical mindset."

I know how i got it. You said its sola scriptura mindset that nothing is true unless it is written. My origional question to you was did the Apostles prescribe to vestments ritual and ensense. Is there anything in the New Testament aside from revelation which they would not have known of Johns vision. I assume you agreed with that.

So i then said does this mean you believe the apostles did pescribe to those things. Now you say that is not what you said. then what did you say? So are you saying now that they  did not prescribe to those things? its got to be one or the other. The question is on the board. Did the apostles  at any time during their earthy leadership prescribe to the use of vestments, ritual and ensense or not. Either they did or they did not so which is it.
Do you personally believe they did

[winsome]

I know how i got it. You said its sola scriptura mindset that nothing is true unless it is written. My origional question to you was did the Apostles prescribe to vestments ritual and ensense. Is there anything in the New Testament aside from revelation which they would not have known of Johns vision. I assume you agreed with that.

So i then said does this mean you believe the apostles did pescribe to those things. Now you say that is not what you said. then what did you say? So are you saying now that they  did not prescribe to those things? its got to be one or the other. The question is on the board. Did the apostles  at any time during their earthy leadership prescribe to the use of vestments, ritual and ensense or not. Either they did or they did not so which is it.
Do you personally believe they did

As I said, many things were carried forward from Judaism. It's not a matter of the apostles specifically prescribing things or not. As I keep saying that is a sola scriptura mindset.



Jewish Priest

See anything similar white robe, outer vestment , girdle. incense.

I really can't see what your problem is unless you are trying to insist that only things specifically prescribed in scripture are permissable.

[k-pappy]

winsome, Paul said that if you try to keep even a small part of the Jewish customs, than you must keep the entire law. 

I don't see you quoting that. I see you quoting Paul referring to the Jewish law. Paul himself kept some Jewish customs, for example Acts 21:26.

Forgive me, winsome, I had assumed you were familiar with the scriptures:

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

Given some of the other responses, I figure you all will continue to explain away the meaning of this passage, and that's fine.  I prefer to go by what is written, not what any person claims it means.

When you read the book of Galatians in its entirety, the context of what is written is clear.

You all are free to cling to your traditions and rituals.  I will cling to my Savior.

[winsome]

winsome, Paul said that if you try to keep even a small part of the Jewish customs, than you must keep the entire law. 

I don't see you quoting that. I see you quoting Paul referring to the Jewish law. Paul himself kept some Jewish customs, for example Acts 21:26.

Forgive me, winsome, I had assumed you were familiar with the scriptures:

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

Given some of the other responses, I figure you all will continue to explain away the meaning of this passage, and that's fine.  I prefer to go by what is written, not what any person claims it means.

When you read the book of Galatians in its entirety, the context of what is written is clear.

You all are free to cling to your traditions and rituals.  I will cling to my Savior.

This has been answered and I note that you have no response to those answers.

[mclees8]

I know how i got it. You said its sola scriptura mindset that nothing is true unless it is written. My origional question to you was did the Apostles prescribe to vestments ritual and ensense. Is there anything in the New Testament aside from revelation which they would not have known of Johns vision. I assume you agreed with that.

So i then said does this mean you believe the apostles did pescribe to those things. Now you say that is not what you said. then what did you say? So are you saying now that they  did not prescribe to those things? its got to be one or the other. The question is on the board. Did the apostles  at any time during their earthy leadership prescribe to the use of vestments, ritual and ensense or not. Either they did or they did not so which is it.
Do you personally believe they did

As I said, many things were carried forward from Judaism. It's not a matter of the apostles specifically prescribing things or not. As I keep saying that is a sola scriptura mindset.



Jewish Priest

See anything similar white robe, outer vestment , girdle. incense.

I really can't see what your problem is unless you are trying to insist that only things specifically prescribed in scripture are permissable.

Why would you say that? You see in the Old Testament priesthood the relationship was tangible and visual for the appearance of the religious authority, thus the Robes the ritual with all the instruments of the priesthood. But God told Ezekiel that the day was coming when the Lord would establish his laws in the heart. Thus no more need for outward show of religion. Jesus chastised the Pharisees for all their outward forms to look all pious and religious. When Jesus gave up the Ghost on the cross the veil was torn and the Old testament priesthood with all its forms and ritual was no more. The covenant was then established in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Now we are clothed spiritually with robes of righteousness. Now our relationship is no longer outward but established in the heart. 
So our first leaders did not lean to or use these outward shows. There was no need to bring forward any Old Testament practices. The apostles made no vain show of themselves.  So why then justify this now and when did they decide to use these things again and why?  Everything the Catholic church does depends on it religious appearance thus they justify the use by pointing to the old testament or seeing Jesus in Revelation wearing  robes in a spiritual vision. Yet the apostles never did that because what we have in our Knew Covenant relationship is not founded on the outward shows anymore but a life that is guided of the Holy Spirit  God desires truth in the inward parts.
So you say what is wrong with what you do. Everything is wrong with it. All that is carnal is enmity with God.

[winsome]

And you were there to observe it were you?

Or are you just guessing?

You complain when we do not use scripture and now you complain when we do. There is no pleasing you.

[mclees8]

And you were there to observe it were you?

Or are you just guessing?

You complain when we do not use scripture and now you complain when we do. There is no pleasing you.

It is obvious you lack understanding. There is truly a reason why but you cannot see it for looking, yet its there. i don't have to quote every scripture and verse to see it. Just know this the apostles never established any ritual vestments or ensese in their leadership and all you have to do is read the book.

[Amo]

1 Pet 2: 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

According to the Apostle Peter, those who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, are a royal, and a holy priesthood. Each member of the body of Christ, is an ambassador for Christ. Using whatever gifts of the Spirit that God gives them to bring people to a knowledge of God by introducing them to His Son, who is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). Unlike the priests of the old covenant who stood as a type of Christ, mediating if you will, between humanity and God, new covenant believers introduce the world to the one and only true mediator between man and God. The literal priesthood of the old covenant has been abolished by Christ in favor of the spiritual priesthood of the new covenant.

The old covenant believer was dependent upon a literal human being and place to receive forgiveness of sins. The new covenant believer however, after being introduced to the Lord Jesus Christ, our high priest who ever liveth to intercede for us, can receive forgiveness for sins at any time, and in any place ( Jn 4: 19-24). The new covenant believer has no need for a human go between, but has been given direct access to the throne of God in and through the ministration of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Each believer may now come boldly before the throne of God with their prayers, and confessions, entreating the mercies of our loving God. This is among the most precious promises of the new testament scriptures.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

The Lord Jesus Christ came to earth, and became one of us, so that we could each have a close and personal relationship with him and his Father in heaven. The Devil has ever sought to separate humanity from God. With the cooperation of our first parents he succeeded in the garden. Ever since, God has been seeking to bring us back, and Satan has been seeking to keep us apart. However, since the Son of God became one of us, there is nothing that can keep us from the love of God, save our own choice to be separate.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

To establish another literal priesthood would destroy the intimacy God intends between Himself and His followers, established by Jesus Christ. Making people once again dependent upon another human being for intercession and forgiveness of sins, stifles personal time and therefore relationship of individuals with God through His Son. It also places a human being in God's place, that is between humanity and God. Which place Christ alone came to fill, and can fill. Thus, it is in this sense, antichrist. What can be more intimate than asking for, and receiving forgiveness from a loved one? Even this is denied those who will submit to the intercession of a literal priesthood established among men, over the spiritual, divine, and universal priesthood established and officiated by Christ Himself. All sin is against God, apart from making things right with individuals we have wronged, we must make it all right with God Himself. This cannot be done for us by another human being other than Christ Himself.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Why would anyone who has direct access to the throne of God, and an invitation from God himself to come their when ever they need to, seek intercession from another sinful, and fallible human being. Jesus Christ is our high priest. By his blood we may all enter in through the veil, into the holiest, where Christ ever liveth to make intercession for us. This was accomplished through his flesh, verse 20. His flesh was our flesh, he became one of us, so that we could enter into the holiest and have direct access to the throne of God. We no longer need anyone between us and God. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. He presented his body a living sacrifice unto God, that we might be able to follow in his footsteps, seeing that his body, or flesh, was our body, or flesh.

The primary role of the priesthood during the old covenant was to officiate the sacrifice. This role has been taken from humanity, and established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who was our sacrifice, and is our high priest. The sacrifice of the new covenant believer is clearly pointed out by the Apostle Paul.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Christ has prepared the way, so that we may give our own selves as living and holy sacrifices unto God. This is our spiritual service of worship in the new covenant. Obviously, no one can do this for another. These things Christ has accomplished by becoming one of us. Now, what person can officiate between the individual and God, when the individual has been granted by the grace of God, the power to present themselves directly to God as a living and holy sacrifice. This is what has been granted to all through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Christ has established a close and personal relationship with each and every individual which cares to accept this relationship. There is no need for another literal priesthood to be established in God's church. In fact, any man that presumes to put himself between anyone else, and God, has put themselves in the place of God.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 6:5-7)

If by faith, we have died with Christ, we are freed from our sins. We personally have been empowered to do this thing by faith, and so has anyone else who cares to accept it. How says anyone that I need a priest, that is, another sinful human being to officiate between me and God? Why would anyone want to nullify the grace of God in this manner? Why take this gift away from humanity, which was given at such infinite cost? The answer is clear, it places the one who does so in a position of power over those who will submit to the same. A power by the way, that is not commissioned by God. This is the original sin of Satan himself, that is, presuming prerogatives which belong only to God, without His consent or approval. (Isa. 14: 12-15).

The setting up of a literal priesthood, separates those who submit to it from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the true high priest of the new covenant. It establishes the literal priest in a position of authority between man and God over all that submit to them. This is the true nature of all such infringements upon the Priesthood and intercession of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The ending result being the separation of those who submit to the same from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's intercession for them. 

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:33-34 (KJV)

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Heb 7:22-28 (KJV)

[winsome]

And you were there to observe it were you?

Or are you just guessing?

You complain when we do not use scripture and now you complain when we do. There is no pleasing you.

It is obvious you lack understanding. There is truly a reason why but you cannot see it for looking, yet its there. i don't have to quote every scripture and verse to see it. Just know this the apostles never established any ritual vestments or ensese in their leadership and all you have to do is read the book.

mclees,

When we want to show respect for a person or an occasion we take care over what we wear.

You don't expect the bride and groom to turn up for their wedding in torn jeans and t-shirts. And if you receive an invitation to go to the wedding of a friend you wouldn't turn up in them yourself. You would clothe yourself in your best attire, perhaps even hire a special suit for the occasion.

We normally wear black or least dark formal clothes for a funeral. Graduates will wear special robes for their graduation ceremony at a university.

The Catholic priest at Mass is presiding at the most important worship ceremony in Catholic life. When he consecrates the bread and wine he acts in persona Christi (in the person of Christ). We expect him to dress suitably for the occasion, in a way that expresses the importance of the occasion.

"[It] is fitting that, when a man represents God, as in the case of a priest, he wears clothing to reveal this mystery. The priests of the Old Covenant were commanded by God to wear special garments when they served in the presence of the Lord. These vestments were signs to denote the sacred calling of the priest, but even more, the vestments reminded the priest that he stood in the presence of the thrice Holy God." (The Crucified Rabbi by Taylor Marshall)

[mclees8]

And you were there to observe it were you?

Or are you just guessing?

You complain when we do not use scripture and now you complain when we do. There is no pleasing you.

It is obvious you lack understanding. There is truly a reason why but you cannot see it for looking, yet its there. i don't have to quote every scripture and verse to see it. Just know this the apostles never established any ritual vestments or ensese in their leadership and all you have to do is read the book.

mclees,

When we want to show respect for a person or an occasion we take care over what we wear.

You don't expect the bride and groom to turn up for their wedding in torn jeans and t-shirts. And if you receive an invitation to go to the wedding of a friend you wouldn't turn up in them yourself. You would clothe yourself in your best attire, perhaps even hire a special suit for the occasion.

We normally wear black or least dark formal clothes for a funeral. Graduates will wear special robes for their graduation ceremony at a university.

The Catholic priest at Mass is presiding at the most important worship ceremony in Catholic life. When he consecrates the bread and wine he acts in persona Christi (in the person of Christ). We expect him to dress suitably for the occasion, in a way that expresses the importance of the occasion.

"[It] is fitting that, when a man represents God, as in the case of a priest, he wears clothing to reveal this mystery. The priests of the Old Covenant were commanded by God to wear special garments when they served in the presence of the Lord. These vestments were signs to denote the sacred calling of the priest, but even more, the vestments reminded the priest that he stood in the presence of the thrice Holy God." (The Crucified Rabbi by Taylor Marshall)

Listen I know what you have been taught by decades of tadition. This is the way you see the priesthood. It is just that way to you and many. Still your earliest leaders the apostles did no institute these practices. In all the catholic idea the clirgy is glorified and exalted above the common, but I tell you this is not from the beginning.  The vatican is a grand religious show and a ritual parrade.  All that your church projects is an outward show. You have come to believe that this is fitting and right and a show of respect, yet even Jesus did not do these things. take your depeiction of the most famous painting of the last Supper. The upper room was a humble and  common setteing and the funiture was everyday furniture. The apostles are depected in common clothes. A stark contrast to what catholics see. Why did the painter see this setting like this? They were all common and most of us reading our Knew Testament would never get the idea that Christ and the apostles were nothing but that even untill they were all martyerd.

Some thing happens when we desire to be noticed for our position of prominence. Peter would never do any of this because he knew What Jesus taught about the pride of the pharisees. There is something about religious prominence that paints a wrong picture. It is anything but humble  I do not think you will ever understand unless the Lord reveals it to you. 

[k-pappy]

This has been answered and I note that you have no response to those answers.

It has not been answered.  People just told me I was wrong, so I posted the scripture.

But that's ok, if you don't want to debate.  Just ignore me and the scriptures I posted.  It's not about you, anyway.  It's about people who could be led astray by what you said.  I hope anyone following this thread will read the book of Galatians and ignore what is being said...even if they ignore what I say.  The Bible speaks for itself.

[winsome]

This has been answered and I note that you have no response to those answers.

It has not been answered.  People just told me I was wrong, so I posted the scripture.

But that's ok, if you don't want to debate.  Just ignore me and the scriptures I posted.  It's not about you, anyway.  It's about people who could be led astray by what you said.  I hope anyone following this thread will read the book of Galatians and ignore what is being said...even if they ignore what I say.  The Bible speaks for itself.

See posts #9, #18, #21

[mclees8]

This has been answered and I note that you have no response to those answers.

It has not been answered.  People just told me I was wrong, so I posted the scripture.

But that's ok, if you don't want to debate.  Just ignore me and the scriptures I posted.  It's not about you, anyway.  It's about people who could be led astray by what you said.  I hope anyone following this thread will read the book of Galatians and ignore what is being said...even if they ignore what I say.  The Bible speaks for itself.

See posts #9, #18, #21

I think we answered to all those answers. Still i would like to see your real justification backed up by the apostles and all we see in the epistles. Of course I think someone said here that all we have to do is listen to the church and never read scripture.