Eastern Orthodox and some of their beliefs.

[Red Baker]

Since there are some Eastern Orthodox on this forum, thought it would be good for some to have a overview of what they believe.  I am not one of them, by the way.

I will make a few comments in BLUE~RB

Eastern Orthodox Church Beliefs and Practices    


By Mary Fairchild


The word orthodox means "right believing" and was adopted to signify the true religion that faithfully followed the beliefs and practices defined by the first seven ecumenical councils (dating back to the first 10 centuries). Orthodox Christianity claims to have fully preserved, without any deviation, the traditions and doctrines of the early Christian church established by the apostles. This is why they believe themselves to be the only true and "right believing" Christian faith. This is NOT one group, sect, church,  etc. that can make such a claim, unless their doctrine  is supported by the scriptures alone, even then, there is not a person living, who is in absolutely perfect agreement with the teachings of God's word.  It is sad, but if one is honest, they must admit that they themselves are constantly being converted to a more perfect knowledge of the word of God.  Also, the Lord said these words in Matthew 24:22~"And except those days be shortened, there shall be NO FLESH SAVED: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."  This salvation is not speaking of depleted of individuals lives, but a practical salvation of  KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of spiritual truths.  The contents of the context within this chapter will prove that point.  In another scripture, I our Lord said: When the Son of man come again, will we find faith in the earth?  Which proves, that true faith will be hard to find.   

The primary disputes that led to the split between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church centered around Rome's deviation from the original conclusions of the seven ecumenical councils, such as the claim to a universal papal supremacy. Another particular conflict is known as the Filioque Controversy. The Latin word filioque means "and from the Son." It had been inserted into the Nicene Creed during the 6th century, thus changing the phrase pertaining to the origin of the Holy Spirit from "who proceeds from the Father" to "who proceeds from the Father and the Son." It had been added to emphasize Christ's divinity, but Eastern Christians not only objected to the altering of anything produced by the first ecumenical councils, they disagreed with its new meaning. Eastern Christians believe both the Spirit and the Son have their origin in the Father. BOTH are great errors, that has produce so much confusion concerning the Godhead.  The Godhead is ONE, yet revealed to us in three distinct persons, according to the work of redemption that is revealed to us in the word of God.  There is ONLY ONE Eternal Spirit, that no man has ever seen, or will ever see.  The Spirit NEVER proceed from the father and Son.  The Son is the EVERLASTING FATHER of all things~Isaiah 9:6, Jesus Christ IS the EXPRESS image of God.  The ONLY God that we will ever see, is Jesus Christ.  Matthew 5:8...God IS a Spirit, that NO ONE will ever see, nor can they.  Jesus Christ was NOT eternal begotten, that within itself is a self-contradiction of terms!  Enough for now.   

One clear distinction between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is the concept of "Sola Scriptura." This "Scripture alone" doctrine held by Protestant faiths asserts that the Word of God alone can be clearly understood and interpreted by the individual believer and is sufficient on its own to be the final authority in Christian doctrine. Orthodoxy argues that the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance. God's children reject traditions, specially when they (false brethren) try to supersede thus saith the Lord God of heaven and earth.  Christians live by every word that proceeds out of God mouth, period!  This enough to help God's children to search for themselves, and to try the spirits to see if they are of God, or of the devil.  There is so much more than I might pick up later and consider some points.

Another less apparent distinction between Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Christianity is their differing theological approaches, which perhaps is simply the result of cultural influences. The Eastern mindset is more inclined toward philosophy, mysticism, and ideology, whereas the Western outlook is guided more by a practical and legal mentality. This can be seen in the subtly different ways that Eastern and Western Christians approach spiritual truth. Orthodox Christians believe that truth must be personally experienced and, as a result, they place less emphasis on its precise definition.

Worship is considered the very center of church life in Eastern Orthodoxy. It is highly liturgical, embracing seven sacraments. It is characterized by a priestly and mystical nature. Veneration of icons and a mystical form of meditative prayer is commonly incorporated into their religious rituals.

More Orthodox Beliefs and Practices:

•Authority of Scripture - Orthodox Christians believe the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance.

•Baptism - Orthodox Christians believe baptism is the initiator of the salvation experience. The Orthodox Church practices baptism by full immersion.

•Eucharist - The Eucharist is the center of worship in the Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that during the Eucharist believers partake mystically of Christ's body and blood and through it receive his life and strength.

•Holy Spirit - Orthodox Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Trinity, who proceeds from the Father and is one in essence with the Father. The Holy Spirit is given by Christ as a gift to the church, to empower for service, to place God's love in our hearts, and to impart spiritual gifts for the Christian life and witness.

•Jesus Christ - Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, God's Son, fully divine and fully human. He became flesh through Mary, but was without sin. He died on the cross as man's Savior. He resurrected and ascended to heaven. He will return to judge all men.

•Mary - Orthodox Christians believe Mary has supreme grace and is to be highly honored but they reject the doctrine of Immaculate Conception.

•Predestination - Orthodox Christians believe God has foreknowlege of man's destiny, but he does not predestine him.

•Saints and Icons - Orthodox Christians practice veneration of icons; reverence is directed toward the person they represent and not the relics themselves.

•Salvation - Orthodox Christians believe salvation is a gradual, life-long process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. This requires faith in Jesus Christ, working through love.

•The Trinity - Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

[Bitter Sweet]

I was raised Eastern Orthodox too but I didn't really learn much about it because it was all spoken in Latin in the church I went to. Before my grandmother died, she had some very big disagreements with the church too and it's lack of teaching and I learned most about God from her. My husband say's that he is "in a fight with the popes" too and so do most of his friends who are Godly oriented, they don't go either because they don't agree with the teachings. We don't have anything to do with the church. The only thing we have left with one of Paul's first churches is my husband digging graves behind it for his parents because it's too expensive to pay someone to do it for them.


His parents aren't dead, we were just talking about this last night because his dad asked him to do it. He said it's better to be prepared because if it happens in winter it will be a lot harder to do because the ground will be frozen and way up high on the mountain it gets really cold. I asked how are you going to get your friends to help? He said he is going to invite them for bbq in the village to get them up there first. 

[JohnDB]

Befriended?

I helped with the juice at St Marks in Nashville free of charge.

They are Egyptians that came to America for a better life. They also are known as Coptic.

They also fast a LOT. They are only supposed to eat meat 50 days of the year.

But their original Church was founded by St Mark himself.

The children were cute as they recited their liturgy in three languages. (The Lord's Prayer).

They respected my faith and I respect theirs. They know persecution firsthand.

[Red Baker]

Befriended?

I helped with the juice at St Marks in Nashville free of charge.

They are Egyptians that came to America for a better life. They also are known as Coptic.

They also fast a LOT. They are only supposed to eat meat 50 days of the year.

But their original Church was founded by St Mark himself.

The children were cute as they recited their liturgy in three languages. (The Lord's Prayer).

They respected my faith and I respect theirs. They know persecution firsthand.

JohnDB~Maybe that title was not the best, sorry.  I believe they are God fearing people in churches that over all are not sound biblically, so I will change the title, not wise what I asked.   But, their doctrine are against the teaching of the scriptures, so we cannot endorse them, and will not. 

RB

[Bitter Sweet]

Befriended?

I helped with the juice at St Marks in Nashville free of charge.

They are Egyptians that came to America for a better life. They also are known as Coptic.

They also fast a LOT. They are only supposed to eat meat 50 days of the year.

But their original Church was founded by St Mark himself.

The children were cute as they recited their liturgy in three languages. (The Lord's Prayer).

They respected my faith and I respect theirs. They know persecution firsthand.

JohnDB~Maybe that title was not the best, sorry.  I believe they are God fearing people in churches that over all are not sound biblically, so I will change the title, not wise what I asked.   But, their doctrine are against the teaching of the scriptures, so we cannot endorse them, and will not. 

RB

All of my husbands friends are Orthodox but they don't go to the church. One of his friends went to school to be a priest and ended up turning away from the church because of what he learned and didn't agree with how it was taught.

So we do have Orthodox friends too but not like the kind that agree with what has been added. This past Sunday was the Resurrection day, we call it the Great Day and once again God made it so that I had a legit excuse for my family to not go into that church, my child had pink eye. Next weekend they are having a Christening and now I have pink eye. But they are rushing the Christening because my cousin is about to go to jail (the child's father). I don't think Christening the baby is going to help his judgement.

[Red Baker]

I was raised Eastern Orthodox too but I didn't really learn much about it because it was all spoken in Latin in the church I went to. Before my grandmother died, she had some very big disagreements with the church too and it's lack of teaching and I learned most about God from her. My husband say's that he is "in a fight with the popes" too and so do most of his friends who are Godly oriented, they don't go either because they don't agree with the teachings. We don't have anything to do with the church. The only thing we have left with one of Paul's first churches is my husband digging graves behind it for his parents because it's too expensive to pay someone to do it for them.


His parents aren't dead, we were just talking about this last night because his dad asked him to do it. He said it's better to be prepared because if it happens in winter it will be a lot harder to do because the ground will be frozen and way up high on the mountain it gets really cold. I asked how are you going to get your friends to help? He said he is going to invite them for bbq in the village to get them up there first. 

Greetings BitterSweet,

Your grandmother did a very good job of teaching you, it shows in your love for the scriptures.  I changed the title, because I know that there God fearing children, that are not converted to the truth, yet for what ever reason, stay where they feel comfortable, and beside, God does not give every one the same measure of faith.  Paul knew that there were some Jews that fear God and had a godly zeal for him, yet not according to knowledge.  These men were born again, yet lack knowledge of the truth!

Romans 10:2

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

Back to verse one of Romans 10~Paul prayed for them that they might be saved. This salvation that Paul prayed for IS NOT A VITAL SALVATION, but, practical only.  No man living can have a true zeal and fear of God, without being first quicken to spiritual life!  Romans 3 will speak loud and clear concerning this important point.

So, I am sorry if I offended your tender spirit for the truth. Please forgive.   

RB

[Thaddaeus]

Since there are some Eastern Orthodox on this forum, thought it would be good for some to have a overview of what they believe.  I am not one of them, by the way.

I will make a few comments in BLUE~RB

Eastern Orthodox Church Beliefs and Practices    


By Mary Fairchild


The word orthodox means "right believing" and was adopted to signify the true religion that faithfully followed the beliefs and practices defined by the first seven ecumenical councils (dating back to the first 10 centuries). Orthodox Christianity claims to have fully preserved, without any deviation, the traditions and doctrines of the early Christian church established by the apostles. This is why they believe themselves to be the only true and "right believing" Christian faith. This is NOT one group, sect, church,  etc. that can make such a claim, unless their doctrine  is supported by the scriptures alone, even then, there is not a person living, who is in absolutely perfect agreement with the teachings of God's word.  It is sad, but if one is honest, they must admit that they themselves are constantly being converted to a more perfect knowledge of the word of God.  Also, the Lord said these words in Matthew 24:22~"And except those days be shortened, there shall be NO FLESH SAVED: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."  This salvation is not speaking of depleted of individuals lives, but a practical salvation of  KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of spiritual truths.  The contents of the context within this chapter will prove that point.  In another scripture, I our Lord said: When the Son of man come again, will we find faith in the earth?  Which proves, that true faith will be hard to find.   

The primary disputes that led to the split between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church centered around Rome's deviation from the original conclusions of the seven ecumenical councils, such as the claim to a universal papal supremacy. Another particular conflict is known as the Filioque Controversy. The Latin word filioque means "and from the Son." It had been inserted into the Nicene Creed during the 6th century, thus changing the phrase pertaining to the origin of the Holy Spirit from "who proceeds from the Father" to "who proceeds from the Father and the Son." It had been added to emphasize Christ's divinity, but Eastern Christians not only objected to the altering of anything produced by the first ecumenical councils, they disagreed with its new meaning. Eastern Christians believe both the Spirit and the Son have their origin in the Father. BOTH are great errors, that has produce so much confusion concerning the Godhead.  The Godhead is ONE, yet revealed to us in three distinct persons, according to the work of redemption that is revealed to us in the word of God.  There is ONLY ONE Eternal Spirit, that no man has ever seen, or will ever see.  The Spirit NEVER proceed from the father and Son.  The Son is the EVERLASTING FATHER of all things~Isaiah 9:6, Jesus Christ IS the EXPRESS image of God.  The ONLY God that we will ever see, is Jesus Christ.  Matthew 5:8...God IS a Spirit, that NO ONE will ever see, nor can they.  Jesus Christ was NOT eternal begotten, that within itself is a self-contradiction of terms!  Enough for now.   

One clear distinction between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is the concept of "Sola Scriptura." This "Scripture alone" doctrine held by Protestant faiths asserts that the Word of God alone can be clearly understood and interpreted by the individual believer and is sufficient on its own to be the final authority in Christian doctrine. Orthodoxy argues that the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance. God's children reject traditions, specially when they (false brethren) try to supersede thus saith the Lord God of heaven and earth.  Christians live by every word that proceeds out of God mouth, period!  This enough to help God's children to search for themselves, and to try the spirits to see if they are of God, or of the devil.  There is so much more than I might pick up later and consider some points.

Another less apparent distinction between Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Christianity is their differing theological approaches, which perhaps is simply the result of cultural influences. The Eastern mindset is more inclined toward philosophy, mysticism, and ideology, whereas the Western outlook is guided more by a practical and legal mentality. This can be seen in the subtly different ways that Eastern and Western Christians approach spiritual truth. Orthodox Christians believe that truth must be personally experienced and, as a result, they place less emphasis on its precise definition.

Worship is considered the very center of church life in Eastern Orthodoxy. It is highly liturgical, embracing seven sacraments. It is characterized by a priestly and mystical nature. Veneration of icons and a mystical form of meditative prayer is commonly incorporated into their religious rituals.

More Orthodox Beliefs and Practices:

•Authority of Scripture - Orthodox Christians believe the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance.

•Baptism - Orthodox Christians believe baptism is the initiator of the salvation experience. The Orthodox Church practices baptism by full immersion.

•Eucharist - The Eucharist is the center of worship in the Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that during the Eucharist believers partake mystically of Christ's body and blood and through it receive his life and strength.

•Holy Spirit - Orthodox Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Trinity, who proceeds from the Father and is one in essence with the Father. The Holy Spirit is given by Christ as a gift to the church, to empower for service, to place God's love in our hearts, and to impart spiritual gifts for the Christian life and witness.

•Jesus Christ - Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, God's Son, fully divine and fully human. He became flesh through Mary, but was without sin. He died on the cross as man's Savior. He resurrected and ascended to heaven. He will return to judge all men.

•Mary - Orthodox Christians believe Mary has supreme grace and is to be highly honored but they reject the doctrine of Immaculate Conception.

•Predestination - Orthodox Christians believe God has foreknowlege of man's destiny, but he does not predestine him.

•Saints and Icons - Orthodox Christians practice veneration of icons; reverence is directed toward the person they represent and not the relics themselves.

•Salvation - Orthodox Christians believe salvation is a gradual, life-long process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. This requires faith in Jesus Christ, working through love.

•The Trinity - Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

a whole post with the implication that Eastern Orthodoxy is a false religion and you have yet to list an unscriptural, false teaching. Stick to facts, not your opinion.

[jst2013]

I'm pretty good friends with someone who is  a part of the Coptic Church,one main thing I get from him is they are NOT friends with the Roman Catholic Church.They think Christ has been perverted by the Roman Church,and have lead many to hell in things that have taught and do.

[HRoberson]

We're using Mary Fairchild, a Calvary administrative assistant, as our starting point?

No wonder.

[Bitter Sweet]

So, I am sorry if I offended your tender spirit for the truth. Please forgive.   

RB

You haven't offended me at all.

What I find offensive is when people tell me I should go to church by finding another one, not follow my husbands lead and not doing what the bible says.

Ephesians 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

[Bitter Sweet]

They respected my faith and I respect theirs. They know persecution firsthand.

I was reading an article on Yahoo the other day about persecution not being against religious beliefs but happens because of disagreement with governments and laws. Aren't we supposed to be taken to court as a result of it? And then God gives us to words to say then instead of planning a case to defend ourselves?

Isn't that what happened to Jesus just after he cussed out the money changers? It wasn't religious it was political?

[Red Baker]

Since there are some Eastern Orthodox on this forum, thought it would be good for some to have a overview of what they believe.  I am not one of them, by the way.

I will make a few comments in BLUE~RB

Eastern Orthodox Church Beliefs and Practices    


By Mary Fairchild


The word orthodox means "right believing" and was adopted to signify the true religion that faithfully followed the beliefs and practices defined by the first seven ecumenical councils (dating back to the first 10 centuries). Orthodox Christianity claims to have fully preserved, without any deviation, the traditions and doctrines of the early Christian church established by the apostles. This is why they believe themselves to be the only true and "right believing" Christian faith. This is NOT one group, sect, church,  etc. that can make such a claim, unless their doctrine  is supported by the scriptures alone, even then, there is not a person living, who is in absolutely perfect agreement with the teachings of God's word.  It is sad, but if one is honest, they must admit that they themselves are constantly being converted to a more perfect knowledge of the word of God.  Also, the Lord said these words in Matthew 24:22~"And except those days be shortened, there shall be NO FLESH SAVED: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."  This salvation is not speaking of depleted of individuals lives, but a practical salvation of  KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of spiritual truths.  The contents of the context within this chapter will prove that point.  In another scripture, I our Lord said: When the Son of man come again, will we find faith in the earth?  Which proves, that true faith will be hard to find.   

The primary disputes that led to the split between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church centered around Rome's deviation from the original conclusions of the seven ecumenical councils, such as the claim to a universal papal supremacy. Another particular conflict is known as the Filioque Controversy. The Latin word filioque means "and from the Son." It had been inserted into the Nicene Creed during the 6th century, thus changing the phrase pertaining to the origin of the Holy Spirit from "who proceeds from the Father" to "who proceeds from the Father and the Son." It had been added to emphasize Christ's divinity, but Eastern Christians not only objected to the altering of anything produced by the first ecumenical councils, they disagreed with its new meaning. Eastern Christians believe both the Spirit and the Son have their origin in the Father. BOTH are great errors, that has produce so much confusion concerning the Godhead.  The Godhead is ONE, yet revealed to us in three distinct persons, according to the work of redemption that is revealed to us in the word of God.  There is ONLY ONE Eternal Spirit, that no man has ever seen, or will ever see.  The Spirit NEVER proceed from the father and Son.  The Son is the EVERLASTING FATHER of all things~Isaiah 9:6, Jesus Christ IS the EXPRESS image of God.  The ONLY God that we will ever see, is Jesus Christ.  Matthew 5:8...God IS a Spirit, that NO ONE will ever see, nor can they.  Jesus Christ was NOT eternal begotten, that within itself is a self-contradiction of terms!  Enough for now.   

One clear distinction between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is the concept of "Sola Scriptura." This "Scripture alone" doctrine held by Protestant faiths asserts that the Word of God alone can be clearly understood and interpreted by the individual believer and is sufficient on its own to be the final authority in Christian doctrine. Orthodoxy argues that the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance. God's children reject traditions, specially when they (false brethren) try to supersede thus saith the Lord God of heaven and earth.  Christians live by every word that proceeds out of God mouth, period!  This enough to help God's children to search for themselves, and to try the spirits to see if they are of God, or of the devil.  There is so much more than I might pick up later and consider some points.

Another less apparent distinction between Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Christianity is their differing theological approaches, which perhaps is simply the result of cultural influences. The Eastern mindset is more inclined toward philosophy, mysticism, and ideology, whereas the Western outlook is guided more by a practical and legal mentality. This can be seen in the subtly different ways that Eastern and Western Christians approach spiritual truth. Orthodox Christians believe that truth must be personally experienced and, as a result, they place less emphasis on its precise definition.

Worship is considered the very center of church life in Eastern Orthodoxy. It is highly liturgical, embracing seven sacraments. It is characterized by a priestly and mystical nature. Veneration of icons and a mystical form of meditative prayer is commonly incorporated into their religious rituals.

More Orthodox Beliefs and Practices:

•Authority of Scripture - Orthodox Christians believe the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance.

•Baptism - Orthodox Christians believe baptism is the initiator of the salvation experience. The Orthodox Church practices baptism by full immersion.

•Eucharist - The Eucharist is the center of worship in the Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that during the Eucharist believers partake mystically of Christ's body and blood and through it receive his life and strength.

•Holy Spirit - Orthodox Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Trinity, who proceeds from the Father and is one in essence with the Father. The Holy Spirit is given by Christ as a gift to the church, to empower for service, to place God's love in our hearts, and to impart spiritual gifts for the Christian life and witness.

•Jesus Christ - Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, God's Son, fully divine and fully human. He became flesh through Mary, but was without sin. He died on the cross as man's Savior. He resurrected and ascended to heaven. He will return to judge all men.

•Mary - Orthodox Christians believe Mary has supreme grace and is to be highly honored but they reject the doctrine of Immaculate Conception.

•Predestination - Orthodox Christians believe God has foreknowlege of man's destiny, but he does not predestine him.

•Saints and Icons - Orthodox Christians practice veneration of icons; reverence is directed toward the person they represent and not the relics themselves.

•Salvation - Orthodox Christians believe salvation is a gradual, life-long process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. This requires faith in Jesus Christ, working through love.

•The Trinity - Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

a whole post with the implication that Eastern Orthodoxy is a false religion and you have yet to list an unscriptural, false teaching. Stick to facts, not your opinion.

Thaddaeus,

I try to be kind and easy on people overall, yet with people like you, who themselves are very hard on everyone, with very little kind words or patience toward any one who is not of your faith exactly~ you force other people to be very firm and hit hard back.  So, if you believe that your church is the only true church with pure doctrine, then I will gladly debate you on the Sonship of Jesus Christ~since John said that it is a very important doctrine of the Christian faith. 1 John 5:7-10; 2 John 7,8 Or, your "strange fire teaching" that Jesus Christ's death saved all men, yet, man must do this and this and this, to be saved!    STRANGE FIRE INDEED  You, and many like you, do not know how to rightly divide scriptures concerning the words:  all, saved/save/salvation, etc.   I know, I have read many of your post.

RB

[notreligus]

We're using Mary Fairchild, a Calvary administrative assistant, as our starting point?

No wonder.

http://christianity.about.com/bio/Mary-Fairchild-16017.htm

Another one of those "nice" comments, eh?  Well, she's not of the Churches of Christ and we know that those Calvary Chapel people are evangelical and don't promote salvation by water, even though Chuck Smith has likely lost count of the thousands of people in southern California that he personally baptized by water. 

[OldDad]

I think the Eastern Orthodox is about as good as any other denomination.

[HRoberson]

We're using Mary Fairchild, a Calvary administrative assistant, as our starting point?

No wonder.

http://christianity.about.com/bio/Mary-Fairchild-16017.htm

Another one of those "nice" comments, eh?  Well, she's not of the Churches of Christ and we know that those Calvary Chapel people are evangelical and don't promote salvation by water, even though Chuck Smith has likely lost count of the thousands of people in southern California that he personally baptized by water. 

You object to the observation that the argument is based on a flat post by an admistrative assistant? Why are you rambling on about baptism and Smith?

[Catholica]

I thought the article was more fair without the comments added, so here is a reprint.

Eastern Orthodox Church Beliefs and Practices   

By Mary Fairchild


The word orthodox means "right believing" and was adopted to signify the true religion that faithfully followed the beliefs and practices defined by the first seven ecumenical councils (dating back to the first 10 centuries). Orthodox Christianity claims to have fully preserved, without any deviation, the traditions and doctrines of the early Christian church established by the apostles. This is why they believe themselves to be the only true and "right believing" Christian faith.

The primary disputes that led to the split between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church centered around Rome's deviation from the original conclusions of the seven ecumenical councils, such as the claim to a universal papal supremacy. Another particular conflict is known as the Filioque Controversy. The Latin word filioque means "and from the Son." It had been inserted into the Nicene Creed during the 6th century, thus changing the phrase pertaining to the origin of the Holy Spirit from "who proceeds from the Father" to "who proceeds from the Father and the Son." It had been added to emphasize Christ's divinity, but Eastern Christians not only objected to the altering of anything produced by the first ecumenical councils, they disagreed with its new meaning. Eastern Christians believe both the Spirit and the Son have their origin in the Father.

One clear distinction between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is the concept of "Sola Scriptura." This "Scripture alone" doctrine held by Protestant faiths asserts that the Word of God alone can be clearly understood and interpreted by the individual believer and is sufficient on its own to be the final authority in Christian doctrine. Orthodoxy argues that the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance.

Another less apparent distinction between Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Christianity is their differing theological approaches, which perhaps is simply the result of cultural influences. The Eastern mindset is more inclined toward philosophy, mysticism, and ideology, whereas the Western outlook is guided more by a practical and legal mentality. This can be seen in the subtly different ways that Eastern and Western Christians approach spiritual truth. Orthodox Christians believe that truth must be personally experienced and, as a result, they place less emphasis on its precise definition.

Worship is considered the very center of church life in Eastern Orthodoxy. It is highly liturgical, embracing seven sacraments. It is characterized by a priestly and mystical nature. Veneration of icons and a mystical form of meditative prayer is commonly incorporated into their religious rituals.

More Orthodox Beliefs and Practices:

•Authority of Scripture - Orthodox Christians believe the Holy Scriptures (as interpreted and defined by church teaching in the first seven ecumenical councils) along with Holy Tradition are of equal value and importance.

•Baptism - Orthodox Christians believe baptism is the initiator of the salvation experience. The Orthodox Church practices baptism by full immersion.

•Eucharist - The Eucharist is the center of worship in the Orthodox Church. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that during the Eucharist believers partake mystically of Christ's body and blood and through it receive his life and strength.

•Holy Spirit - Orthodox Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Trinity, who proceeds from the Father and is one in essence with the Father. The Holy Spirit is given by Christ as a gift to the church, to empower for service, to place God's love in our hearts, and to impart spiritual gifts for the Christian life and witness.

•Jesus Christ - Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, God's Son, fully divine and fully human. He became flesh through Mary, but was without sin. He died on the cross as man's Savior. He resurrected and ascended to heaven. He will return to judge all men.

•Mary - Orthodox Christians believe Mary has supreme grace and is to be highly honored but they reject the doctrine of Immaculate Conception.

•Predestination - Orthodox Christians believe God has foreknowlege of man's destiny, but he does not predestine him.

•Saints and Icons - Orthodox Christians practice veneration of icons; reverence is directed toward the person they represent and not the relics themselves.

•Salvation - Orthodox Christians believe salvation is a gradual, life-long process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. This requires faith in Jesus Christ, working through love.

•The Trinity - Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

[Thaddaeus]

Red Baker,

I try to be kind and easy on people overall, yet with people like you, who themselves are very hard on everyone, with very little kind words or patience toward any one who is not of your faith exactly~ you force other people to be very firm and hit hard back.  So, if you believe that your church is the only true church with pure doctrine, then I will gladly debate you on the Sonship of Jesus Christ~since John said that it is a very important doctrine of the Christian faith. 1 John 5:7-10; 2 John 7,8 Or, your "strange fire teaching" that Jesus Christ's death saved all men, yet, man must do this and this and this, to be saved!    STRANGE FIRE INDEED  You, and many like you, do not know how to rightly divide scriptures concerning the words:  all, saved/save/salvation, etc.   I know, I have read many of your post.

You make huge assertions with very little facts. You have yet to point out just one false teaching of the Orthodox Church with evidence that it is false. Keep to the facts, not your opinion.

[Lively Stone]

I think the Eastern Orthodox is about as good as any other denomination.

Like the RCC, I do not consider EO as a denomination. It is a religion all to itself.

[Red Baker]

Thaddaeus,

"The Trinity - Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. "

You believe your church is the only true church on earth~ Is this correct or wrong?  The statement above, do you agree with it, or no?  I want to prove to you that your church is not as pure as you think.  By saying that, I am not judging their eternal state, of being God's children or not, that is not for me to judge, even though, God's true church ( which are all born again believers in Jesus Christ, who are trusting his righteousness for the reward of the world to come) have the right and the ability to bind and to loose on earth, the doctrines of men. 

John 20:23

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

True children of God, have the spiritual insight to know truth and to know error~they are spiritual discerned, by having the Holy Ghost within them. (1 Corinthians 2:1-6) "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."  God's children have this gift, yet others who do not, cannot even judge that they DO, or that they are even of God!

So if you believe that your Orthodox religion is the only true religion, and that everyone has forsaken you, then let us take the confession above, if that is your church's profession and test it with the with the word of truth.

Or, you chose you one, and I will use the scriptures to tell you why I am not of your faith, that you so much trust in.  I do have a religion and it is the one that Paul defended in Galatians 2-5.  It is the religion of Free Justification through the faith and obedience on Jesus Christ FREELY GIVEN by the Grace of God to his seed.   We have no name, other than Believer's, followers of Jesus Christ, Christians, etc. We believe that some of us are in many faiths, just not fully converted fully, and may never be.  We make a clear distinction between regeneration, and conversion.  One happens immediately, the other a life long process, that is never fully competed in any man.   We all will die with some errors.  But one main truth we all believe in~that is: Free justification is through the obedience of ONE, not two! Not me and Jesus, but Jesus alone. Romans 5:19

RB

[JohnDB]

The Eastern Orthodox is also somewhat like the Catholic church in that they are still an umbrella organization with varying practices and beliefs in the individual churches.

The name "Eastern" comes from the fact that these churches were East of Rome/Europe when the split occurred. There were also some disagreements over the calendar with the Catholic church during the split (if my memory serves properly).

Some of the unique things about the Coptics that I am friends with were the liturgy. They say them in three languages. Arabic, latin, and English. I've been told that some do French or Spanish litugical recitals as well.

One of the unique things as well was the leader of the Church. He wore all black robes (white inner robe) & a black turban. The members would make an attempt to kiss either his hand or a ring on it (unsure) but before they could he would pull back his hand quickly making it a failed attempt every time. As if this was their customary greeting. I simply shook his hand when greeting him.

They were immensely grateful for the help and assistance I provided them. They said I was the first American to donate time & services. They were saying that some of the places I was walking soon would be off limits to all except the head pastor. They also had some kind of special reverence for a painting of Mark which had portions of gold leaf in the painting. I wanted to take it down due to the dust from drilling but they almost had a "come apart" over my desire to. So it got some dust on it.

They fed me burgers & etc while they couldn't eat meat for Lent. They were extremely hospitable. Their devotion to God is extreme. They have been persecuted by moslems and many have died for the name of Christ.

Sure they come from the middle east, they speak arabic, they are olive complctioned but they are anything but Moslem. They only wish to join American Christians in worshipping God. Right now the bigotry stemming from moslem terrorists is hampering their efforts. The cultural divide is also alarming to them. (They find ours troubling) 

[Ben]

I only know one living Greek Orthodox Christian. He demonstrates absolutely no fruit of the spirit that I have ever seen.  My former next door neighbors were Russian Orthodox.  I have met atheists that sinned less than them.  I assume there are some somewhere that have received Christ.

Ben

[HRoberson]

I only know one living Greek Orthodox Christian. He demonstrates absolutely no fruit of the spirit that I have ever seen.  My former next door neighbors were Russian Orthodox.  I have met atheists that sinned less than them.  I assume there are some somewhere that have received Christ.

Ben

And this demonstrates, what exactly? Shall we discuss Ted Haggard, or Jimmy Swaggert? How about those nice Baptists that hold up hate signs and rejoice that people get killed, or maybe Jim Bakker and company?

[JohnDB]

I only know one living Greek Orthodox Christian. He demonstrates absolutely no fruit of the spirit that I have ever seen.  My former next door neighbors were Russian Orthodox.  I have met atheists that sinned less than them.  I assume there are some somewhere that have received Christ.

Ben

I think the same thing about people from Connecticut.


Everyone I have ever met that came from there has been the biggest self righteous jerk you would ever want to meet. I am sure that they have some humble Christians there somewhere...I just haven't met any of them yet.

[Thaddaeus]

Red Baker,

"The Trinity - Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. "

You believe your church is the only true church on earth~ Is this correct or wrong?  The statement above, do you agree with it, or no?  I want to prove to you that your church is not as pure as you think.

Yes, and yes.
Now, where is the false teaching?

Or, you chose you one, and I will use the scriptures to tell you why I am not of your faith, that you so much trust in.  I do have a religion and it is the one that Paul defended in Galatians 2-5.  It is the religion of Free Justification through the faith and obedience on Jesus Christ FREELY GIVEN by the Grace of God to his seed.   We have no name, other than Believer's, followers of Jesus Christ, Christians, etc. We believe that some of us are in many faiths, just not fully converted fully, and may never be.  We make a clear distinction between regeneration, and conversion.  One happens immediately, the other a life long process, that is never fully competed in any man.   We all will die with some errors.  But one main truth we all believe in~that is: Free justification is through the obedience of ONE, not two! Not me and Jesus, but Jesus alone. Romans 5:19

its nice I suppose to create your own religion and I'm glad you feel secure in what you have developed or at least following someone else's developed religion.  I suspect, the Orthodox would be incorrect in a lot, if not all things, based on your man made version of a self proclaimed religion.

Yours is just another of many others that have cropped up in the sola scriptura melieu. You seem to be the self proclaimed pope of that church and your word is infallible.

I'll just stick to the Gospel of Christ as it was given once to the saints and has been preserved in his Body from the beginning.  I'm into the real thing, not an immitation at best, worse just another man made religion.

[Thaddaeus]

I think the Eastern Orthodox is about as good as any other denomination.

Like the RCC, I do not consider EO as a denomination. It is a religion all to itself.

that is the truest thing you have stated.

[Lively Stone]

I think the Eastern Orthodox is about as good as any other denomination.

Like the RCC, I do not consider EO as a denomination. It is a religion all to itself.

that is the truest thing you have stated.

As a religion all to itself, it bears little resemblance to true Christianity as revealed in the scriptures, as it leans heavily toward tradition, the actual church building as the place where truth is disseminated, and rejects the personal relationship we have with Jesus.

These beliefs are barriers to personal faith. How?

EO's are led to assume the Church's responsibility (not theirs) to seek the truth.

These beliefs pose a barrier to personal faith in Christ, in that they so elevate the Church's Tradition and its interpretation of scripture, that many Orthodox people assume it is only the Church's responsibility (through its representative, the local priest or bishop) to interpret and disseminate spiritual truth. Orthodox lay people usually do not feel a responsibility or right to seek the truth on their own or do personal Bible study, since it is already contained in the Tradition of the Church.

The Bible is not viewed as the primary source for dogma—Tradition is. Yet if Orthodox people were to study the Bible for themselves, many would discover personal faith in Christ as God speaks to them through His word.

[.:Lily:.]

I think the Eastern Orthodox is about as good as any other denomination.

Like the RCC, I do not consider EO as a denomination. It is a religion all to itself.

I agree.

I'll add the 'high' churches within Anglicanism there.

[Red Baker]

Thaddaeus,

Thaddaeus you said~#1: "its nice I suppose to create your own religion"~No, I do not think, or believe that the disciples of Jesus Christ, have any right whatsoever to say even one word in a way of proclaiming truth, if they cannot support their word (s) with holy scriptures from heaven.  So, do not accuse those who refuse to submit to traditions, men's opinions, and men's false teachings, as though they have their own religion, which is different from yours, and the one that you glory in. 

#2~"I'm glad you feel secure in what you have developed or at least following someone else's developed religion."~I have not developed any doctrine, and, surely not following what any man developed.   Read my post to you, where I stated clearly these words:

"It is the religion of Free Justification through the faith and obedience on Jesus Christ FREELY GIVEN by the Grace of God to his seed.   We have no name, other than Believer's, followers of Jesus Christ, Christians, etc."

And yes, I feel totally secure in this religion of Jesus Christ. As a believer in the scriptures, I trust completely in the obedience of one, for my hope of eternal life in the world to come. It is a religion, built upon the foundations of the apostles of Jesus Christ, who were the wise masterbuilders, guided skillfully by the Holy Ghost.  In my religion, Jesus Christ is the  chief corner stone, and those who put their trust in him alone shall never be confounded, world without end. We know that the works of the flesh is no hiding place, we trust in the obedience of Jesus Christ, and the free grace of God, that purposed and planned our glorious redemption through his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.  

#3~"Yours is just another of many others that have cropped up in the sola scriptura melieu"~Well, every true saint of God, do trust in the scriptures alone, and not in man's vain and wicked doctrines that many are base upon a spirit that thinks it is wiser than what is written, and a spirit that is base upon what appeals to the flesh of man, more than to his spirit.

Matthew 4:4

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

This is so plain, that only a blinded traditionalist would try to argue with one quoting this verse.

Matthew 15:3-13, read all of these verses, but I will only quote one, for the sake of time and space.

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

The Lord Jesus spent much of his time refuting these self righteous Pharisees and Jews by them leaving the word of God and teaching for doctrines~(v9) the commandments of vain and wicked men, who trusted so much in their works to be accepted before God. 

#4~"You seem to be the self proclaimed pope of that church and your word is infallible."  Well, again, you have me tagged wrong.  I am a wicked sinner, saved by the grace of God, and I battle sin every day that I live in this body of death, but I do glory and praise God, and can say with Paul:

O wretched man that I am!  who shall deliver me from the body of this death?  I thank God THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.
Romans 7:24,25

#5~"I'll just stick to the Gospel of Christ"~Thaddaeus, your gospel is another gospel that is base upon: "THIS DO AND LIVE", the gospel of Christ, said:  JESUS PAID IT ALL, THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO OR SHOULD DO, BUT TO BELIEVE IN THIS GLORIOUS GOSPEL OF PEACE AND GRACE, FREELY GIVEN! I might add:  that our believing is only an evidence that one posses this great salvation purchased by Jesus Christ.  John 5:24 and notice carefully the verb tenses in that scripture.

#6~"I'm into the real thing, not an immitation at best, worse just another man made religion"~my words to you are: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:...."  2 Peter 1:10

RB

[Red Baker]

I only know one living Greek Orthodox Christian. He demonstrates absolutely no fruit of the spirit that I have ever seen.  My former next door neighbors were Russian Orthodox.  I have met atheists that sinned less than them.  I assume there are some somewhere that have received Christ.

Ben

I think the same thing about people from Connecticut.


Everyone I have ever met that came from there has been the biggest self righteous jerk you would ever want to meet. I am sure that they have some humble Christians there somewhere...I just haven't met any of them yet.

JohnDB,

There is not much very good that does come out of the Northeast, but 1-95 heading south~But, I do have a son-law that is very good, and he's from Connecticut.  But, before him and my second daughter got very serious, I set him down and was very frank with him on many issues.  They have been married for almost twenty years with four beautiful sons. 

Your words reminded me of what Nathanael said to Philip:

John 1:46

And Nathanael said unto him,  An any good thing come out of Nazareth?  Philip saith unto him, Come and see."   Also, notice what Jesus said of Nathanael!  John 1:47   He did have not a judgmental attitude, but a very good spiritual insight!

RB 

[Thaddaeus]

Red Baker,

No, I do not think, or believe that the disciples of Jesus Christ, have any right whatsoever to say even one word in a way of proclaiming truth, if they cannot support their word (s) with holy scriptures from heaven.  So, do not accuse those who refuse to submit to traditions, men's opinions, and men's false teachings, as though they have their own religion, which is different from yours, and the one that you glory in. 

You are quite rediculous. Do you not know that the scriptures were written by those Apostles.  And you asking them to support what they say with scripture?

I no longer submit to the traditions of men, others or myself.  Yet, this is exactly what you are doing. You are submitting either to your own tradition, or some other person's tradition.  Which is precisely what you are ranting against.

Let's be honest, you have created or hold to a man made self proclaimed tradition.

I have not developed any doctrine, and, surely not following what any man developed.   Read my post to you, where I stated clearly these words:

"It is the religion of Free Justification through the faith and obedience on Jesus Christ FREELY GIVEN by the Grace of God to his seed.   We have no name, other than Believer's, followers of Jesus Christ, Christians, etc."

and how is this not a created, developed, religion and doctrine of men?  Who is making this pronouncement, you or some other guy?

And yes, I feel totally secure in this religion of Jesus Christ. As a believer in the scriptures, I trust completely in the obedience of one, for my hope of eternal life in the world to come. It is a religion, built upon the foundations of the apostles of Jesus Christ, who were the wise masterbuilders, guided skillfully by the Holy Ghost.

I'm glad you do. You believe in some man made interpretation of a text.

Your claim is made by every sola scripturist over the last 500 years beginning with Luther and possibly ending with your man made religion.  There will be yet another tomorrow that is even better than yours but will be quite different.

In my religion, Jesus Christ is the  chief corner stone, and those who put their trust in him alone shall never be confounded, world without end. We know that the works of the flesh is no hiding place, we trust in the obedience of Jesus Christ, and the free grace of God, that purposed and planned our glorious redemption through his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.   

I think you have shown without a shadow of a doubt that it is all yours and has very little to do with scripture as given by the Holy Spirit inspiring the Apostles.

Well, every true saint of God, do trust in the scriptures alone, and not in man's vain and wicked doctrines that many are base upon a spirit that thinks it is wiser than what is written, and a spirit that is base upon what appeals to the flesh of man, more than to his spirit.

I don't trust in scriptures at all. I Trust in the Truth, Christ is the Truth and the way, not scriptures.  I think the phrase says a lot about a true sola scripturist. They believe in the Bible, but only as a source, or ground, to develop their own brand of a religion. 

Seems most of what you have written here is pointed straight at you. You have described yourself quite accurately.

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

which is NOT just scriptures.

This is so plain, that only a blinded traditionalist would try to argue with one quoting this verse.

I don't know about traditionalist, as I don't see you as one, but you are describing yourself again.

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

and then you forthwith violate those very words and create/develop a whole new and inproved tradition/tradition of men.

The Church has tradition also, but that is not the Gospel of Christ. Holy Tradition is the oral revelation of the Apostles to the early Church. Scriptures were derived from that Oral Tradition.  Huge difference, but then sola scripturists are not known for being accurate.

The Lord Jesus spent much of his time refuting these self righteous Pharisees and Jews by them leaving the word of God and teaching for doctrines~(v9) the commandments of vain and wicked men, who trusted so much in their works to be accepted before God. 

and now you have added to the number.

#5~"I'll just stick to the Gospel of Christ"~Thaddaeus, your gospel is another gospel that is base upon: "THIS DO AND LIVE", the gospel of Christ, said:  JESUS PAID IT ALL, THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO OR SHOULD DO, BUT TO BELIEVE IN THIS GLORIOUS GOSPEL OF PEACE AND GRACE, FREELY GIVEN! I might add:  that our believing is only an evidence that one posses this great salvation purchased by Jesus Christ.  John 5:24 and notice carefully the verb tenses in that scripture.

so you claim, but have yet to show any evidence that it is NOT the Gospel of Christ as He gave and preserved.
You have, however, clearly shown that you have established a new religion of man, either you or someone, even picked a phrase to use as a mantra.  Not much different than all the rest of sola scripturists who proclaim their religion superior to that of the Holy Spirit.

You just don't like something that you did not create or worse, is a gospel much more agreeable with your sensibilities.  Sounds much like other modern men who don't like the responsibility that they were created to use. They much rather put responsibility on others so they seemingly don't become liable for their own actions. This is true modern humanism. This is the norm today in the US in our legiteous legal system.

#6~"I'm into the real thing, not an immitation at best, worse just another man made religion"~my words to you are: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:...."  2 Peter 1:10

You should take your own advice and follow Christ, not some man made, modern version of a gospel.

You have not shown even one false teaching of the Orthodox as yet.  You are so busy proclaiming your own religion and showing how many ways it is unscriptural. What was the purpose of the OP.  Just a better way to introduce another false teaching?

[Red Baker]

Thaddaues You said: #1~"Do you not know that the scriptures were written by those Apostles.  And you asking them to support what they say with scripture?" 

When I said these words: "I do not think, or believe that the disciples of Jesus Christ, have any right whatsoever to say even one word in a way of proclaiming truth, if they cannot support their word (s) with holy scriptures from heaven"~I was not referring to the apostles, but to born again children of God, then too are the disciples of the Lord Jesus.  Not sure how you could not follow something as simple as that. 

I am not going to go back and play games with someone who uses almost no scriptures, but a bunch words to no profit.  Some men argue to prove doctrines, which is a good thing; others argue to be just arguing, to try to hinder those who have truth and speak it. It is clear, that you are such a person. Acts 13:45!  and there are others.

Since you will not give certain specific that you feel strongly in defending, then I will take some of your twisted views and expose them.  Maybe in the morning. 

RB

[HRoberson]

I think the Eastern Orthodox is about as good as any other denomination.

Like the RCC, I do not consider EO as a denomination. It is a religion all to itself.

that is the truest thing you have stated.

As a religion all to itself, it bears little resemblance to true Christianity as revealed in the scriptures, as it leans heavily toward tradition, the actual church building as the place where truth is disseminated, and rejects the personal relationship we have with Jesus.

These beliefs are barriers to personal faith. How?

EO's are led to assume the Church's responsibility (not theirs) to seek the truth.

These beliefs pose a barrier to personal faith in Christ, in that they so elevate the Church's Tradition and its interpretation of scripture, that many Orthodox people assume it is only the Church's responsibility (through its representative, the local priest or bishop) to interpret and disseminate spiritual truth. Orthodox lay people usually do not feel a responsibility or right to seek the truth on their own or do personal Bible study, since it is already contained in the Tradition of the Church.

The Bible is not viewed as the primary source for dogma—Tradition is. Yet if Orthodox people were to study the Bible for themselves, many would discover personal faith in Christ as God speaks to them through His word.

I don't follow the logic that these things (assuming for the moment that they are true), make either the EO or the RCC a separate religion. That seems a rather huge jump in logic.

[Thaddaeus]

 Lively Stone,

As a religion all to itself, it bears little resemblance to true Christianity as revealed in the scriptures, as it leans heavily toward tradition, the actual church building as the place where truth is disseminated, and rejects the personal relationship we have with Jesus.

so you say, but can never muster any evidence to back it up.

as it leans heavily toward tradition,

anything that exists have a tradition. However, the Church Christ founded has what is known as HOLY TRADITION.  This is refering to the Original Gospel as it was Orally given, from which the scriptures are actually derived. 

YOu should study early Church history, you might even be enlightened and your responses might have some value, rather than unfounded assertions and/or misunderstood statements.

the actual church building as the place where truth is disseminated, and rejects the personal relationship we have with Jesus.

two more unfounded, or at best ignorant statements. Do you have anything of value to contribute here.

These beliefs are barriers to personal faith. How?

EO's are led to assume the Church's responsibility (not theirs) to seek the truth.

which is your misunderstanding again. We are to seek for Christ, for the Truth, and the Holy Spirit will lead all to conviction, but man must decide. ONCe one finds that Pearl of Great Price, one no longer needs to seek. We are to rest IN HIS TRUTH.

What we are not to do is create our own truth from the written portion of THE TRUTH.

These beliefs pose a barrier to personal faith in Christ, in that they so elevate the Church's Tradition and its interpretation of scripture,

The Church has never needed to interpret scripture the way you are understanding it.  It was given to the Church by the Holy Spirit ONCE.  It was necessary for the Church to further claify that Gospel in light of the several false teachings that were attempted to be foisted upon it by false teachers. But even that clarification was done by the Body, not an individual. Man has never had authority over scripture, only the Holy Spirit through the Body.

What seems a barrier is that you do not desire to have a relationship with the ONE True Christ, that He revealed, rather you prefer some man made developed religion.

that many Orthodox people assume it is only the Church's responsibility (through its representative, the local priest or bishop) to interpret and disseminate spiritual truth.

No bishop or Priest has the authority to interpret scripture. They do disseminate the Truth ONCE given. That is their responsibility. The ground and pillar of truth is the Church. I Tim 3:15. It NEVER says man is the ground of that Truth. 

Orthodox lay people usually do not feel a responsibility or right to seek the truth on their own or do personal Bible study, since it is already contained in the Tradition of the Church.

They have already accepted that Truth. What all beleivers need to do is use scripture to apply that Truth to their daily lives.  It is not the purpose of a beleiver  to constantly search for some additional truth on their own. That is why and how false doctrines, theories, and all the choas sola scriptura hass generated because you have forsaken the Truth and seek you own Truth from a text, which is only the written portion of Holy Tradition.

since it is already contained in the Tradition of the Church.

If ONE has the Truth, believes in the Giver of that Truth, what other truth must we seek?Of course, if one does not actually want the Truth of scripture, then one needs to fabricate one of their own, though based on a text, which then produces all the thousands of gospels we have in the sola scriptura melieu.

The Bible is not viewed as the primary source for dogma—Tradition is.

It might be wiser to study early Church history so one does not make such an uninformed statement.  The dogma, the doctrines, the practice, the Gospel(revelation) all came before the text. The Early Church did not use a Bible, they had none. That is why it is called Holy (oral) Traditiion.  Even after the first century it was not necessary to use a text the way you use it.  The bible as a Canon does not appear until the end of the 4th century.

Yet if Orthodox people were to study the Bible for themselves, many would discover personal faith in Christ as God speaks to them through His word.

that is application, not interpretation. ONe does not need to find out what the text means when it was given to the Church in the beginning. But that does not rule out that we all read and study for application of that Truth to our lives.

The sola scripturist is trying to find out what it means, the application is not even in the picture.

[Thaddaeus]

Red Baker,

When I said these words: "I do not think, or believe that the disciples of Jesus Christ, have any right whatsoever to say even one word in a way of proclaiming truth, if they cannot support their word (s) with holy scriptures from heaven"~

no individual was ever given the right to interpret scripture the way you are inferring, with scripture or without scripture. That is wholly a protestant mantra, unscriptual at that.

A sola scripturist does not "use" scripture, but rather his own interpretation of that scripture and usually twists scripture to say what they need it to say.

It is why the Revelation, the Gospel of Christ has never changed over the last 2000 years within the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit through the Body has not permitted any man to impose his own interpretation upon scripture.  You think that you have the right to guess, thus invaribly change what the Gospel has always meant.
YOu are superceding the authority of Christ as Head of the Church and the protector,the Holy Spirit.

I am not going to go back and play games with someone who uses almost no scriptures, but a bunch words to no profit.

the ball is in your park. You are the one who claimed the Orthodox were false, and have yet to give one false teaching.

YOu also have simply made philosophical statements and assertions, statements that don't require refutation with texts.

Some men argue to prove doctrines, which is a good thing; others argue to be just arguing, to try to hinder those who have truth and speak it. It is clear, that you are such a person.

You have not proved anything except a lot of bluster from you.

Since you will not give certain specific that you feel strongly in defending, then I will take some of your twisted views and expose them.  Maybe in the morning. It is your OP.

I'll await your listing what you perceive as false along with the evidence to show it is false.

[Lively Stone]

I think the Eastern Orthodox is about as good as any other denomination.

Like the RCC, I do not consider EO as a denomination. It is a religion all to itself.

that is the truest thing you have stated.

As a religion all to itself, it bears little resemblance to true Christianity as revealed in the scriptures, as it leans heavily toward tradition, the actual church building as the place where truth is disseminated, and rejects the personal relationship we have with Jesus.

These beliefs are barriers to personal faith. How?

EO's are led to assume the Church's responsibility (not theirs) to seek the truth.

These beliefs pose a barrier to personal faith in Christ, in that they so elevate the Church's Tradition and its interpretation of scripture, that many Orthodox people assume it is only the Church's responsibility (through its representative, the local priest or bishop) to interpret and disseminate spiritual truth. Orthodox lay people usually do not feel a responsibility or right to seek the truth on their own or do personal Bible study, since it is already contained in the Tradition of the Church.

The Bible is not viewed as the primary source for dogma—Tradition is. Yet if Orthodox people were to study the Bible for themselves, many would discover personal faith in Christ as God speaks to them through His word.

I don't follow the logic that these things (assuming for the moment that they are true), make either the EO or the RCC a separate religion. That seems a rather huge jump in logic.

Actually it is quite logical to see that these two almost identical theological groups are religions that separate from mainstream Christianity. They do not hold to the authority of God's word, but rather to man's traditions....something that Jesus Himself spoke rather harshly about---as did Paul under God's inspiration. So, they fall outside of Christianity.

Mark 7:8
For you ignore God's law and substitute your own tradition.

Colossians 2:8
Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.


Any doctrine or thinking that doesn't coincide with Jesus---throw it out, turn away.