TruthScientist and SwordMaster...

[SwordMaster]

From the other thread...

If that is what you think, then you have not read enough of my responses to understand what I am saying. Don't get caught up in posts by others who try to twist what I am saying. I will clarify it for you...

1.  No man can work his way into eternal life, as it is a free gift of God provided for those who are in covenant with Him (Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.")

2.  No man can come to God without faith (Hebrews 11:6   "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.").

3.  True, genuine faith takes a man into grace (Romans 5:2   "Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.")

4.  According to Christ's own words, one must repent from his old lifestyle of sin, or he cannot be saved (Mark 1:15   and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."  //  Luke 13:3   No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.  //  and  Acts 3:19   Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,) Can one's sins be "blotted out" if they do not repent? Not according to Scripture, but man sure teaches that they can...

5.  Christ, by God's design and plan, is the Living New Covenant (Isaiah 42:6   "I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations,  //  and  //  Isaiah 49:8   Thus says the LORD: "In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,)

6.  In order for one to come to God, to enter into His Kingdom, one must not only have faith (believe) but also receive baptism (not that baptism saves anyone, but that baptism is the God-ordained rite by which one enters into Christ - the Living New Covenant) (Mark 16:16   Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.  //  Galatians 3:27   For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  //  John 3:5   Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.)

7.  Faith alone does not save anyone (James 2:14   What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? //  This is a rhetorical question, the answer is a resounding "NO!"  //  John 3:15-16  that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.  16   "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.)

Works do not save anyone, refer to point #1. Actions of obedience to God in accordance with our faith gives demonstration that our faith is not just lip-service (because lip-service faith saves no one), but is genuine and real, saving faith. In Both verses in John, the word "believe" is in the Present Active Participial verb form, meaning "believe and continue to believe"...giving clear indication that one must continue to believe - placing their trust and hope in Christ - in order to have eternal life. Also we observe the words "may" and "should not" which are clear indications that believing (contrary to popular doctrines of men today) is only one element of attaining eternal life - there is not "grace and faith alone" doctrine in Scripture, only what unstable and unbalanced men come up with after cherry-picking the Scriptures. "may" and "should not" are the accurate renderings of these two verses in John, many contemptible versions of the Bible (like the NIV) are translated according to the translator's slant and doctrinal holdings rather than a clear, thought-for-thought rendering of the text.

8.  After entering into Christ through baptism, one remains in Christ (and hence, the New Covenant) by walking in obedience to the law of the New Covenant (Hebrews 7:12   For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.     //     Romans 3:27   Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.     //     Galatians 6:2   Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.     //     1 Corinthians 9:21   To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.)

Obedience to the law of the New Covenant does not give one eternal life (see point #1 again), but the law of the New Covenant functions in the same manner as the law in every covenant - it keeps one in covenant relationship with God, and nothing else.

9.  The law of the New Covenant is, "love on people"  (John 13:34   A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.     //     Galatians 5:14   For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."     //     James 2:8   If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.)

Jesus Himself commands that we love one another; Paul affirms that this fulfills the law (of the New Covenant, not the "works of the law" of the Old Covenant); and James says that "you are doing well" in obeying the command to love, he doesn't say that you are stuck in legalistic nonsense.

10.  The law of the New Covenant is not to be confused with "the law," and  "works of the law," which are specifically addressing the "works of the law of Moses" or the Old Covenant (Romans 7:6   But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.)

There is a change in the modality by which we are to walk in obedience to God, not just a change in the law. When you follow through with chapter 7 into chapter 8:1, you see that one who is serving according to the new way of the Spirit is walking in the Spirit, and only those who walk in the Spirit remain in Christ where there is no condemnation. Christ is the Covenant, and when one meets his covenant obligation of loving on others through the new and living way of the Spirit, then he remains abiding in Christ - in the Covenant. Again...walking in obedience to the covenant obligations does not give one eternal life, it only keeps one in covenant relationship with God (1 John 3:23-24  And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.   24   Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.)

11.  In that covenant relationship one is free to engage God in intimate, personal loving relationship, and in that relationship is eternal life (John 17:3   And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.     //     1 John 4:8   Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.)  Numerous times God gives us the Word Picture of marriage as the union which describes the union that He desires and transmits eternal life through, which is a covenant relationship. The covenant does not give life, but creates the legal relationship by which an intimate relationship can be built and maintained - such is the relationship God desires of us. Your wedding ring does not give life to your legally recognized relationship, only intimacy with your spouse does not, yet we consistently confuse the one with the other.

The Covenant (Christ) makes the saving relationship with God possible, but it does not give that eternal life. The phrase "in Christ" is covenant legal language for abiding in the Covenant, so when we read this passage (and others like it).....1 John 5:11  And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. we see that the cognate phrase "in His Son" means in the Covenant. Saying that the life in Christ is like saying life is in my car...well, life is only in my car when someone is sitting in the car. In a similar figure, life is in Christ because it is in Christ in which we come to God, and when we engage Him in personal relationship (which is sharing our life with Him), then He shares His life with us - eternal life - which we see pre-figured in the life of Enoch. He walked with God in relationship, and one day they just kept on walking....and walking...until God - sharing His life with Enoch - just took him home (can't wait to meet Enoch!!! What stories he will have to tell as one of the Witnesses! (Rev. 11:3)).

12.  Because of the atonement in Christ, God has dealt the death blow to sin in the life of those participating in the Covenant (Romans 8:1   There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.     //     Romans 6:6-7   We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin.     //     1 John 2:10   Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.     - WITH -     1 John 1:7   But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have [covenant] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.)

The one walking in covenant with God does not have to worry about sin. Everyone sins, but those who are "abiding in the Light" are walking in obedience to God's command to love, and when one "misses the mark" (hamartia = sin) God overlooks that accidental sin - just like if your friend or spouse accidentally hurts you in some way, because it was not done intentionally, you forgive and continue forward.

13.  I have perfect peace and assurance of eternal life, because I (1) practice loving on people (1 John 3:14   We know that we have passed over from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death.     //     1 John 4:12   No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.     //     1 John 4:16-17  So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.)

There are those here that continually insist, despite telling them to the contrary-wise, that I have perfect assurance based upon the Scriptures. You will not find a passage in the NT Scriptures that states one has assurance of eternal life JUST because they believe. There is Hebrews 10:22, but when we take it in context...

Hebrews 10:19-23
19   Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
20   by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
21   and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22   let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance [complete understanding] of the faith [pistis, noun, meaning the received articles of the faith of Christianity], with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23   Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

This passage does not address "assurance of salvation based upon believing" but (according to the grammar) "complete understanding of the doctrines of Christianity" which brings confidence in what we believe.

Lets take one point at a time...go ahead and start!

[soundthruJesus]

Sorry for butting in...BUT...

SM, you are very right on in most of what you say here.

The only correction I would make would be to say that love comes from the Holy Spirit, and we get the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is foundational to understanding what keeps a man saved.

You did well in pointing out scriptural evidence that loving one another is what keeps us saved (1 John 3:14, 4:12, 4:16-17).

I will only contend from what I know in my gut from the Holy Spirit, because of an unction in me...

that it is through faith in Jesus that we stay saved and this faith produces that love that you say is what keeps us.

Without faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross this love could not exist in our hearts.

We cannot love according to the love spoken of in John 15:13 apart from the Holy Ghost shedding this love abroad in our hearts.

Doing things for other people is fine and dandy, but if you think that you are obtaining or even maintaining your salvation by it something is wrong with your motives.

For the born again believer, "We love Him (and others) because He first loved us."  (1 John 4:19)

"And herein is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."  (1 John 4:10)

It brings us back to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.  This scripture defines the gospel in a nutshell, and also tells us that if we keep it in memory, this is what maintains our salvation, and by this we will stand.

[mclees8]

Sorry for butting in...BUT...

SM, you are very right on in most of what you say here.

The only correction I would make would be to say that love comes from the Holy Spirit, and we get the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is foundational to understanding what keeps a man saved.

You did well in pointing out scriptural evidence that loving one another is what keeps us saved (1 John 3:14, 4:12, 4:16-17).

I will only contend from what I know in my gut from the Holy Spirit, because of an unction in me...

that it is through faith in Jesus that we stay saved and this faith produces that love that you say is what keeps us.

Without faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross this love could not exist in our hearts.

We cannot love according to the love spoken of in John 15:13 apart from the Holy Ghost shedding this love abroad in our hearts.

Doing things for other people is fine and dandy, but if you think that you are obtaining or even maintaining your salvation by it something is wrong with your motives.

For the born again believer, "We love Him (and others) because He first loved us."  (1 John 4:19)

"And herein is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."  (1 John 4:10)

It brings us back to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.  This scripture defines the gospel in a nutshell, and also tells us that if we keep it in memory, this is what maintains our salvation, and by this we will stand.

This is the first time to visit this section of the forum. I usually go t the Catholic forum where protestants and Catholics debate and fence with each other. I am neither because I know that the church is the church, no Protestant or Catholic.

With respect to Sword master as you said most of his teaching right on," if that is the right way to see it "  It was the lack of seeing what you have stated about the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit know one can hope to live and obey the Lords commandments. Even then we struggle and fall short.  It does not say this specifically in Scripture but for me, without the Holy Spirit it is difficult to abide in the vine. It is the Holy Spirit that gives us power to spread the gospel, Live according to the Gospel. This requires us to seek after Him and to enter His baptism.  We need do an intense study of the book of John and study  all the chapters and verses concerning the promise of the Holy Spirit for all believers. Being first witnessed in the 120 on the day of Pentecost.

[SwordMaster]

STJ said...

Sorry for butting in...BUT...

You are not butting in...I started this debate with TS quite a while ago and he backed out and never answered.

SM, you are very right on in most of what you say here. The only correction I would make would be to say that love comes from the Holy Spirit, and we get the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

Reformed Theology tells people that they cannot love unless they are saved and filled with God, but that is false. Non-believer's love...they love their children, spouses, and some people even do good things for others, which is the definition of loving on others. The unregenerate can love...they can even love sacrificially and die so that others don't have to. This has taken place in almost every war that this country has been in since its birth...men jumping on hand grenades so that their buddies could live, and most of them were not believers.

Now, the propensity for the unregenerate to do such things is not as great as it is with the regenerate person...because as you said, we have the love of God in our hearts (IF we spend enough time in His presence in worship and prayer and begin to take on His character), and that love for God compels us to move forward in love for others. But it is Scripturally in error to say that unregenerate people cannot love...but perhaps you meant something else and I am misunderstanding you.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is foundational to understanding what keeps a man saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1   Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2   and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
3   For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4   that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

But we do not get the whole picture of what Paul is saying above if we do not go further...

1 Corinthians 15:33-34
33   Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals."
34   Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

What Paul has taught from Romans to Philemon...even in Acts...

Acts 26:19-20
19   "Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20   but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

Paul has always affirmed that obedience to God is part and parcel of the gospel. Performing deeds (works) in keeping with repentance means only one thing, walking in obedience to God. Paul means obedience when he says to "hold fast to the word I preached to you," in other words, walk in obedience to what I taught you of the gospel. You are correct, this is foundation teaching on how a man remains abiding in covenant with God, so that he can come to eternal life.

You did well in pointing out scriptural evidence that loving one another is what keeps us saved (1 John 3:14, 4:12, 4:16-17).

Not "keeps us saved" but keeps us abiding in the covenant. Union with God is what gives a man eternal life, and covenant abiding is what gives a person what he needs in order to approach God in relationship and become one with Him.

I will only contend from what I know in my gut from the Holy Spirit, because of an unction in me...that it is through faith in Jesus that we stay saved and this faith produces that love that you say is what keeps us. Without faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross this love could not exist in our hearts.

You are correct in saying that we need faith, but faith alone does not cut it. Reality and Scripture both demonstrate that thinking to be unbiblical. There are millions of people in the United States alone who believe in God and in Jesus as the Messiah, but they do not walk in obedience to Him, therefore they may have eternal life because of faith, but failure to walk in obedience to the dictates of that faith will still send them to a Godless eternity...

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous will conduct his life according to what he believes."

In other words, actions speak louder than words. You can claim that you believe and walk with God until you are blue in the face, but when the rubber meets the road where does that claimed faith meet with the truth? If one claims that he can walk through a wall unscathed, and believes it, then he will try walking through a wall. If you claim to love your spouse...what demonstration is there in your life to prove your claim? This is what the passage in Habakkuk (which Paul quotes) is saying. When a passage from the OT is quoted, God expects us to know what that passage deals with, because the writers of the NT did not quote the whole story, just the main part which they elude to. Basically, what God is saying here, is that if one truly believes in Christ he will "walk like He did" (I John 2:6), he will practice righteousness like He did (I John 3:10).

We cannot love according to the love spoken of in John 15:13 apart from the Holy Ghost shedding this love abroad in our hearts.

This is not true, as pointed out above already.

Doing things for other people is fine and dandy, but if you think that you are obtaining or even maintaining your salvation by it something is wrong with your motives.

Actually, this is what Scripture teaches. Walking in obedience to the law of the new covenant (the law of Christ) is what maintains one's participation within the new covenant. It does not give eternal life because that is not what covenant law is all about, it only keeps one in legal relationship with God.

For the born again believer, "We love Him (and others) because He first loved us."  (1 John 4:19)

"And herein is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."  (1 John 4:10)

You seem to still be taking only half of the answer. It is true that we love Him because He first loved us, but that does NOT negate the command for obedience. Here is the way I look at it...there are people who only want to be "saved" because they do not want to go to hell for all eternity, and I would say that this is a valid concern. However, God does not save anyone just to keep them out of hell...He saves people in the hopes that they will come to Him on an intimate and personal level and enter into a living relationship with Him (John 17:3), that is what eternal life is all about. If a person comes to God only looking to avoid hell, then their motives are wrong and they will most likely end up there anyway, hearing the words, "I never knew you." If a person comes to God because they want to have a relationship with Him, then they will walk in obedience to Him according from the heart, not as if it was coerced out of them through walking in obedience "to the law."

Basically, I am in agreement with you to a certain extent...but God is far more personal, and desires relationship and reacts to relationship, more than He does to those who just want a "get out of hell free" card. I don't know if I explained that good enough for you to understand what I am saying...please tell me if I did not, ask for clarification so that I know I need to word myself better.

Blessings!

[tooldtocare]

Jesus Christ was reading from the Old Testament, the New had not been created yet. And this is what He read***

(2 Chr 7:17 KJV) And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;.

(2 Chr 7:18 KJV) Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.

(2 Chr 7:19 KJV) But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;.

You will see references to God's commandments mentioned numerous times but the actual commandments that are being referred to are not noted. For this reason I include them below.

STRANGER—The term "stranger" is mentioned 123 times in the Holy Bible

(Mal 3:5 KJV)  And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Jer 14:8 KJV)  O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

(Ezek 14:7 KJV)  For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

(Deu 1:16 KJV)  And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:19 KJV)  Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 24:19 KJV)  When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for thestranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV)  When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV)  If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Ezek 22:7 KJV)  In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

(Zec 7:10 KJV)  And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV)  Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV)  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV)  And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

But what God asked them to do they did not and instead we find this -----

(Mat 25:38 KJV)  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

(Mat 25:43 KJV) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

(Ezek 22:29 KJV) The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

has anything changed?