Can a Catholic know they are going to heaven while they are alive?

[hammer123]

I've heard that Catholics aren't sure if they will make it to heaven.

[winsome]

Yes and no. We can have an assurance but not an absolute assurance.

Here is an extract from a tract from Catholic Answers that explains this:

"Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.

But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one's present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one's life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, "By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10), "If any one says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20), "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one's life in grace and the resolution of one's heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, "It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God. "

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

[hammer123]

What sins would someone have to commit that would lead them to hell?

[winsome]

What sins would someone have to commit that would lead them to hell?

Mortal sins, for example murder, adultery, theft.

or as John put it (1Jn 5:16-17)
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We believe that mortal sin cuts us off completely from God because it is not just a turning away, but rejection of God.
Mortal sins require three conditions:
1. Grave (very serious) matter
2. Full knowlege - we understand the seriousness of what we are doing
3. Full consent - we are not being coerced; it is a deliberate act on our part.

As the extract I gave stated "...such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent."

There is always the opportunity to repent, but if we die unrepentant then we will have rejected God and are destined for hell.

[Red Baker]

What sins would someone have to commit that would lead them to hell?

Mortal sins, for example murder, adultery, theft.

or as John put it (1Jn 5:16-17)
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We believe that mortal sin cuts us off completely from God because it is not just a turning away, but rejection of God.
Mortal sins require three conditions:
1. Grave (very serious) matter
2. Full knowlege - we understand the seriousness of what we are doing
3. Full consent - we are not being coerced; it is a deliberate act on our part.

As the extract I gave stated "...such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent."

There is always the opportunity to repent, but if we die unrepentant then we will have rejected God and are destined for hell.

Greetings Winsome,

Believing in this system of works, cannot ever give the soul true peace, and joy.  This is sad, to say the very least, and not according to the scripture to be truthful before God and others who live under this terrible bondage of not knowing the wonderful blessedness that king David described, and Paul boldly shouted through the NT for all to hear, who hath ears to hear, and eyes to see.

Romans 4:6,7

"Even David also describeth the blessedness of the man ~dear soul, there is blessedness to be had NOW, while we live in this body of sin and death! Winsome, David knew this blessedness in while living under the OT teachings; HOW MUCH MORE can we under the NT!   I am not saying these things to put you down, but to cause you to believe the record that God has given to us.  I can get tougher, and should if you and others reject the revelation of the man who glories in the doctrine of grace without works of any kind, in receiving eternal life.  There is a glorious blessedness that every child of God can enjoy now.   Religion places men under the bondage of FEAR, true knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ liberates men from out under that bondage, wherein the devil desires to keep everyone, specially, believers in God.  If you love and believe God, then believe his word, above the teachings of men.  Take hold of this blessedness that David described and Paul explain in his gospel that God gave to him to preach unto us.

"of the man whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS~I did not write these words, but, before the God of heaven, I firmly believe them and rejoice with joy that is unspeakable and full of glory sent from heaven, into my soul by the Holy Ghost.   

Winsome, every child of God has Jesus Christ's righteousness imputeth to his account by the free grace of God.  It is a done deal!  David knew this, and many other OT saints knew this, some had greater knowledge, some, no doubt lesser knowledge, and some did not even know it, but if they were given to Jesus Christ by God, then he die for them, and then his righteousness was by the sovereign acts of God, placed to their account, and by that act, they were declared righteous by God. 

"Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins ARE COVERED."  I said that it is a done deal, and God's word support what I said. 

I can say with David these words: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sins."  Your post is made null and void by these words of David, at least it is for every child of grace.  One could spend days on this one subject, which is the very heart of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, the very gospel that Paul preached and one that we trust in for enjoying the blessedness of knowing that our sins ARE forgiven, and knowing that regardless, what happens tomorrow, next week of the very last day of my life, I am secured in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.  You, or me, have no righteousness of our own, nor can we by our righteousness, guarantee that we can do enough to secure our right to eternal life.  Paul dealt with these arguments over and over again in Acts, Romans and Galatians~and we still do, unto this very day.

RB

[Red Baker]

Winsome and all sincere, and believing Catholics~Greetings,

I want to answer this question in the OP, in this manner:  "How can all believers know that they posses eternal life now, at this very hour?"

There is a way that we (true believers) can know that we have eternal life abiding within us at this present hour.  And that way is "BY FAITH IN THE WORD OF GOD".  It is just that simple.  Anything more than that is adding to Paul's gospel, which is the only gospel that guarantee's that God's promises of free grace to the seed of Jesus Christ remains as such~by grace, and not of debt, that God would owe anyone, who may think that he has done some " many wonderful works"~Matthew 7:23. 

Romans 4:16

"Therefore it is of faith~  The sense of these words are clear, as we consider the overall scriptures, specially, Galatians 2-4, and even more so in chapter three.  Faith is not the means of  obtaining~The error of many godly reformers, including both Luther, and Calvin; but faith is the system/method that God chose to give the children of promise the assurance/and evidence that they are partakers of the promises of God.  There is no other system whereby the promises of God become sure to us, than the system of faith.  So many are confused concerning the wording of how Paul used the word faith.  He never once used it in a regeneration sense.  He used it in others senses, and we must compare scriptures with scriptures to determined how it is used, lest we end up in serious error.  In Romans 4 faith is used as a "means whereby we can know, or, a system whereby faith is the evidence , that proves we are children of promises, given to Jesus Christ.   Faith does not make us children, Jesus Christ by his righteousness secured all of God's promises to us~Faith proves that we are Abraham's children, it does not make us children.   By faith, we can have assurance that we are now the the sons of God. 1 John 3:2

"that it might be by grace"~Any other system, must include works, and where there are works, one can never have assurance that they are true heirs of the world to come, because, we all know that we all can say with Paul: "O wretched man that I am!" Salvation in its fullest term in the scriptures, is all of grace. 

"To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed." Salvation is of grace, period!  God's word give testimony to this great truth.  Any other system, would leave the seed of Jesus Christ, without any hope whatsoever.  Our works, cannot give us true peace.  Our works must by their nature, keep us in bondage.  The children of promises, can and do have perfect peace and joy, that is unspeakable;  at least from my little mind.   Grace secures the promises of God.  Faith gives us evidence, that we are partaker of  God promises in Christ.  Faith is reckoned as our righteousness, or, in other words, gives evidence.

We who are of grace, can, and do, have assurance that we are NOW sons of God, in possession  of eternal life, which works cannot give that assurance.

RB 

[DaveW]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

[Red Baker]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

Hello Dave,

I am not sure why you said this??

[Ladonia]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

Hello Dave,

I am not sure why you said this??

Winsome and all sincere, and believing Catholics~Greetings,

I want to answer this question in the OP, in this manner:  "How can all believers know that they posses eternal life now, at this very hour?"

There is a way that we (true believers) can know that we have eternal life abiding within us at this present hour.  And that way is "BY FAITH IN THE WORD OF GOD".  It is just that simple.  Anything more than that is adding to Paul's gospel, which is the only gospel that guarantee's that God's promises of free grace to the seed of Jesus Christ remains as such~by grace, and not of debt, that God would owe anyone, who may think that he has done some " many wonderful works"~Matthew 7:23. 

Romans 4:16

"Therefore it is of faith~  The sense of these words are clear, as we consider the overall scriptures, specially, Galatians 2-4, and even more so in chapter three.  Faith is not the means of  obtaining~The error of many godly reformers, including both Luther, and Calvin; but faith is the system/method that God chose to give the children of promise the assurance/and evidence that they are partakers of the promises of God.  There is no other system whereby the promises of God become sure to us, than the system of faith.  So many are confused concerning the wording of how Paul used the word faith.  He never once used it in a regeneration sense.  He used it in others senses, and we must compare scriptures with scriptures to determined how it is used, lest we end up in serious error.  In Romans 4 faith is used as a "means whereby we can know, or, a system whereby faith is the evidence , that proves we are children of promises, given to Jesus Christ.   Faith does not make us children, Jesus Christ by his righteousness secured all of God's promises to us~Faith proves that we are Abraham's children, it does not make us children.   By faith, we can have assurance that we are now the the sons of God. 1 John 3:2

"that it might be by grace"~Any other system, must include works, and where there are works, one can never have assurance that they are true heirs of the world to come, because, we all know that we all can say with Paul: "O wretched man that I am!" Salvation in its fullest term in the scriptures, is all of grace. 

"To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed." Salvation is of grace, period!  God's word give testimony to this great truth.  Any other system, would leave the seed of Jesus Christ, without any hope whatsoever.  Our works, cannot give us true peace.  Our works must by their nature, keep us in bondage.  The children of promises, can and do have perfect peace and joy, that is unspeakable;  at least from my little mind.   Grace secures the promises of God.  Faith gives us evidence, that we are partaker of  God promises in Christ.  Faith is reckoned as our righteousness, or, in other words, gives evidence.

We who are of grace, can, and do, have assurance that we are NOW sons of God, in possession  of eternal life, which works cannot give that assurance.

RB 

We have been through this very topic many times before. It's not just about "works", or the "blessed assurance" , as the Scriptures talk about both. Suffice it to say that I like what Fr. Goeshel has said about the subject and what his response will be when his spirit leaves his body and he comes face to face with the Almighty. "Mercy Lord, mercy!

[Red Baker]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

Hello Dave,

I am not sure why you said this??

Winsome and all sincere, and believing Catholics~Greetings,

I want to answer this question in the OP, in this manner:  "How can all believers know that they posses eternal life now, at this very hour?"

There is a way that we (true believers) can know that we have eternal life abiding within us at this present hour.  And that way is "BY FAITH IN THE WORD OF GOD".  It is just that simple.  Anything more than that is adding to Paul's gospel, which is the only gospel that guarantee's that God's promises of free grace to the seed of Jesus Christ remains as such~by grace, and not of debt, that God would owe anyone, who may think that he has done some " many wonderful works"~Matthew 7:23. 

Romans 4:16

"Therefore it is of faith~  The sense of these words are clear, as we consider the overall scriptures, specially, Galatians 2-4, and even more so in chapter three.  Faith is not the means of  obtaining~The error of many godly reformers, including both Luther, and Calvin; but faith is the system/method that God chose to give the children of promise the assurance/and evidence that they are partakers of the promises of God.  There is no other system whereby the promises of God become sure to us, than the system of faith.  So many are confused concerning the wording of how Paul used the word faith.  He never once used it in a regeneration sense.  He used it in others senses, and we must compare scriptures with scriptures to determined how it is used, lest we end up in serious error.  In Romans 4 faith is used as a "means whereby we can know, or, a system whereby faith is the evidence , that proves we are children of promises, given to Jesus Christ.   Faith does not make us children, Jesus Christ by his righteousness secured all of God's promises to us~Faith proves that we are Abraham's children, it does not make us children.   By faith, we can have assurance that we are now the the sons of God. 1 John 3:2

"that it might be by grace"~Any other system, must include works, and where there are works, one can never have assurance that they are true heirs of the world to come, because, we all know that we all can say with Paul: "O wretched man that I am!" Salvation in its fullest term in the scriptures, is all of grace. 

"To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed." Salvation is of grace, period!  God's word give testimony to this great truth.  Any other system, would leave the seed of Jesus Christ, without any hope whatsoever.  Our works, cannot give us true peace.  Our works must by their nature, keep us in bondage.  The children of promises, can and do have perfect peace and joy, that is unspeakable;  at least from my little mind.   Grace secures the promises of God.  Faith gives us evidence, that we are partaker of  God promises in Christ.  Faith is reckoned as our righteousness, or, in other words, gives evidence.

We who are of grace, can, and do, have assurance that we are NOW sons of God, in possession  of eternal life, which works cannot give that assurance.

RB 

We have been through this very topic many times before. It's not just about "works", or the "blessed assurance" , as the Scriptures talk about both. Suffice it to say that I like what Fr. Goeshel has said about the subject and what his response will be when his spirit leaves his body and he comes face to face with the Almighty. "Mercy Lord, mercy!

"Suffice it to say that I like what Fr. Goeshel has said about the subject and what his response will be when his spirit leaves his body and he comes face to face with the Almighty. "Mercy Lord, mercy!"

I will believe my Father in heaven over and above ?? Goeshel!  And you would show wisdom in doing the same.  Did not know that this topic has been covered many time before~Then if so, you obviously did not learn what  the scriptures plainly teaches.   

RB 

[Ladonia]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

Hello Dave,

I am not sure why you said this??

Winsome and all sincere, and believing Catholics~Greetings,

I want to answer this question in the OP, in this manner:  "How can all believers know that they posses eternal life now, at this very hour?"

There is a way that we (true believers) can know that we have eternal life abiding within us at this present hour.  And that way is "BY FAITH IN THE WORD OF GOD".  It is just that simple.  Anything more than that is adding to Paul's gospel, which is the only gospel that guarantee's that God's promises of free grace to the seed of Jesus Christ remains as such~by grace, and not of debt, that God would owe anyone, who may think that he has done some " many wonderful works"~Matthew 7:23. 

Romans 4:16

"Therefore it is of faith~  The sense of these words are clear, as we consider the overall scriptures, specially, Galatians 2-4, and even more so in chapter three.  Faith is not the means of  obtaining~The error of many godly reformers, including both Luther, and Calvin; but faith is the system/method that God chose to give the children of promise the assurance/and evidence that they are partakers of the promises of God.  There is no other system whereby the promises of God become sure to us, than the system of faith.  So many are confused concerning the wording of how Paul used the word faith.  He never once used it in a regeneration sense.  He used it in others senses, and we must compare scriptures with scriptures to determined how it is used, lest we end up in serious error.  In Romans 4 faith is used as a "means whereby we can know, or, a system whereby faith is the evidence , that proves we are children of promises, given to Jesus Christ.   Faith does not make us children, Jesus Christ by his righteousness secured all of God's promises to us~Faith proves that we are Abraham's children, it does not make us children.   By faith, we can have assurance that we are now the the sons of God. 1 John 3:2

"that it might be by grace"~Any other system, must include works, and where there are works, one can never have assurance that they are true heirs of the world to come, because, we all know that we all can say with Paul: "O wretched man that I am!" Salvation in its fullest term in the scriptures, is all of grace. 

"To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed." Salvation is of grace, period!  God's word give testimony to this great truth.  Any other system, would leave the seed of Jesus Christ, without any hope whatsoever.  Our works, cannot give us true peace.  Our works must by their nature, keep us in bondage.  The children of promises, can and do have perfect peace and joy, that is unspeakable;  at least from my little mind.   Grace secures the promises of God.  Faith gives us evidence, that we are partaker of  God promises in Christ.  Faith is reckoned as our righteousness, or, in other words, gives evidence.

We who are of grace, can, and do, have assurance that we are NOW sons of God, in possession  of eternal life, which works cannot give that assurance.

RB 

We have been through this very topic many times before. It's not just about "works", or the "blessed assurance" , as the Scriptures talk about both. Suffice it to say that I like what Fr. Goeshel has said about the subject and what his response will be when his spirit leaves his body and he comes face to face with the Almighty. "Mercy Lord, mercy!

"Suffice it to say that I like what Fr. Goeshel has said about the subject and what his response will be when his spirit leaves his body and he comes face to face with the Almighty. "Mercy Lord, mercy!"

I will believe my Father in heaven over and above ?? Goeshel!  And you would show wisdom in doing the same.  Did not know that this topic has been covered many time before~Then if so, you obviously did not learn what  the scriptures plainly teaches.   

RB 

It's a little bit haughty of you to put down the idea of asking for God's mercy I would say.

But you conveiniently ignore all the Scriptures that say the opposite of what you say. You know, the ones that tell us we are judged by our actions and the like?  You see, I take both into consideration - God's promise and my messups. On  Judgement Day, God could deny you your salvation just because he wants to. He has that power and there is nothing you could do to change that reality. So yes, I will beg for mercy for my sins upon my entry into the next world, all the while relying on Jesus to advocate for me. But in the end God Almighty could turn to his son and and say about me: "I don't like this guy so much" and send me straight to hades. 

[Red Baker]

it's a little bit haughty of you to put down the idea of asking for God's mercy I would say.~no, only on the part of those refuse to believe the scriptures, but follows men, who come up phrases such as was used.

If, such phrases could be found in the word of God, then no problem.  Unless you desire to use scriptures to support your position, then I care not to waste my time with folk like yourself.

RB

[Ladonia]

it's a little bit haughty of you to put down the idea of asking for God's mercy I would say.~no, only on the part of those refuse to believe the scriptures, but follows men, who come up phrases such as was used.

If, such phrases could be found in the word of God, then no problem.  Unless you desire to use scriptures to support your position, then I care not to waste my time with folk like yourself.

RB

Ah yes, the old "words of men" argument.  Well, there are men whom God sent here as part of his infallible Church, to instruct us on the correct interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Not our own private interpretation, but one which is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit within the confines of his teaching church here on earth. An interpretation that has stood the test of time, not the thousands of biblical interpretations that exist amongst the thousands of other Christian sects.

[Ladonia]

And another thing, there is nothing un-biblical about asking God for mercy - whether we are in this life or the next.

[mclees8]

it's a little bit haughty of you to put down the idea of asking for God's mercy I would say.~no, only on the part of those refuse to believe the scriptures, but follows men, who come up phrases such as was used.

If, such phrases could be found in the word of God, then no problem.  Unless you desire to use scriptures to support your position, then I care not to waste my time with folk like yourself.

RB

Ah yes, the old "words of men" argument.  Well, there are men whom God sent here as part of his infallible Church, to instruct us on the correct interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Not our own private interpretation, but one which is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit within the confines of his teaching church here on earth. An interpretation that has stood the test of time, not the thousands of biblical interpretations that exist amongst the thousands of other Christian sects.

The church is not infallible for the church is made up fallible men, and this can be shown in many scripture and the epistles of the apostles. Jesus warned us of false teachers and misguided men that would pray  on the church. There is only one infallible and that is God Himself and His word. Where do you get the idea your church is infallible. Because fallible priests say they are infallible.

[mclees8]

And another thing, there is nothing un-biblical about asking God for mercy - whether we are in this life or the next.

This is true. I have to pray for his grace and mercy every day. And then by faith I must stand on it

[winsome]

The church is not infallible for the church is made up fallible men, and this can be shown in many scripture and the epistles of the apostles. Jesus warned us of false teachers and misguided men that would pray  on the church. There is only one infallible and that is God Himself and His word. Where do you get the idea your church is infallible. Because fallible priests say they are infallible.

I've started a thread on that. 

You are welcome to join in.

[Red Baker]

And another thing, there is nothing un-biblical about asking God for mercy - whether we are in this life or the next.

You said: "And another thing, there is nothing un-biblical about asking God for mercy"~I never said that it was, you are very deceitfully putting a spin on my words to you.   In this life, we ask for mercy and forgiveness everyday that we live, in order to walk in fellowship with the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.  No where in the word of God, are we lead to believe that we will be seeking for God's mercy in that day, no where!  There will be many deceived people crying out to God to reconsider all of their wonderful works, which they thought was going to merit heaven for them;  but they shall all be rejected, and cast into outer darkness.   Matthew 7  True believers, trust in the righteousness of the Son of God, not some so-called "mother church", where there are a bunch of men walking around in their long robes, and wide phylacteries;  who love to be called of men, father, father.  All their works they do to seen of men.  Matthew 23 is almost a perfect picture of the Catholic Church leaders;  if not, then who fits it better? 

Deal with the scriptures presented to you, that condemns your false understanding of the word of God.  If you cannot do that, then you have nothing to offer anyone, but your opinions only , which are worthless, and cannot serve you or anyone else, in that day. Answer the questions present to you, which are scriptural based, and after the teachings of Paul, not father so, and so.

Question and answer from the scriptures:

I want to answer this question in the OP, in this manner:  "How can all believers know that they posses eternal life now, at this very hour?"

There is a way that we (true believers) can know that we have eternal life abiding within us at this present hour.  And that way is "BY FAITH IN THE WORD OF GOD".  It is just that simple.  Anything more than that is adding to Paul's gospel, which is the only gospel that guarantee's that God's promises of free grace to the seed of Jesus Christ remains as such~by grace, and not of debt, that God would owe anyone, who may think that he has done some " many wonderful works"~Matthew 7:23. 

Romans 4:16

"Therefore it is of faith~  The sense of these words are clear, as we consider the overall scriptures, specially, Galatians 2-4, and even more so in chapter three.  Faith is not the means of  obtaining~The error of many godly reformers, including both Luther, and Calvin; but faith is the system/method that God chose to give the children of promise the assurance/and evidence that they are partakers of the promises of God.  There is no other system whereby the promises of God become sure to us, than the system of faith.  So many are confused concerning the wording of how Paul used the word faith.  He never once used it in a regeneration sense.  He used it in others senses, and we must compare scriptures with scriptures to determined how it is used, lest we end up in serious error.  In Romans 4 faith is used as a "means whereby we can know, or, a system whereby faith is the evidence , that proves we are children of promises, given to Jesus Christ.   Faith does not make us children, Jesus Christ by his righteousness secured all of God's promises to us~Faith proves that we are Abraham's children, it does not make us children.   By faith, we can have assurance that we are now the the sons of God. 1 John 3:2

"that it might be by grace"~Any other system, must include works, and where there are works, one can never have assurance that they are true heirs of the world to come, because, we all know that we all can say with Paul: "O wretched man that I am!" Salvation in its fullest term in the scriptures, is all of grace. 

"To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed." Salvation is of grace, period!  God's word give testimony to this great truth.  Any other system, would leave the seed of Jesus Christ, without any hope whatsoever.  Our works, cannot give us true peace.  Our works must by their nature, keep us in bondage.  The children of promises, can and do have perfect peace and joy, that is unspeakable;  at least from my little mind.   Grace secures the promises of God.  Faith gives us evidence, that we are partaker of  God promises in Christ.  Faith is reckoned as our righteousness, or, in other words, gives evidence.

We who are of grace, can, and do, have assurance that we are NOW sons of God, in possession  of eternal life, which works cannot give that assurance.

Believing in this system of works, cannot ever give the soul true peace, and joy.  This is sad, to say the very least, and not according to the scripture to be truthful before God and others who live under this terrible bondage of not knowing the wonderful blessedness that king David described, and Paul boldly shouted through the NT for all to hear, who hath ears to hear, and eyes to see.

Romans 4:6,7

"Even David also describeth the blessedness of the man ~dear soul, there is blessedness to be had NOW, while we live in this body of sin and death! Winsome, David knew this blessedness in while living under the OT teachings; HOW MUCH MORE can we under the NT!   I am not saying these things to put you down, but to cause you to believe the record that God has given to us.  I can get tougher, and should if you and others reject the revelation of the man who glories in the doctrine of grace without works of any kind, in receiving eternal life.  There is a glorious blessedness that every child of God can enjoy now.   Religion places men under the bondage of FEAR, true knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ liberates men from out under that bondage, wherein the devil desires to keep everyone, specially, believers in God.  If you love and believe God, then believe his word, above the teachings of men.  Take hold of this blessedness that David described and Paul explain in his gospel that God gave to him to preach unto us.

"of the man whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS~I did not write these words, but, before the God of heaven, I firmly believe them and rejoice with joy that is unspeakable and full of glory sent from heaven, into my soul by the Holy Ghost.   

Winsome, every child of God has Jesus Christ's righteousness imputeth to his account by the free grace of God.  It is a done deal!  David knew this, and many other OT saints knew this, some had greater knowledge, some, no doubt lesser knowledge, and some did not even know it, but if they were given to Jesus Christ by God, then he die for them, and then his righteousness was by the sovereign acts of God, placed to their account, and by that act, they were declared righteous by God. 

"Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins ARE COVERED."  I said that it is a done deal, and God's word support what I said. 

I can say with David these words: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sins."  Your post is made null and void by these words of David, at least it is for every child of grace.  One could spend days on this one subject, which is the very heart of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, the very gospel that Paul preached and one that we trust in for enjoying the blessedness of knowing that our sins ARE forgiven, and knowing that regardless, what happens tomorrow, next week of the very last day of my life, I am secured in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.  You, or me, have no righteousness of our own, nor can we by our righteousness, guarantee that we can do enough to secure our right to eternal life.  Paul dealt with these arguments over and over again in Acts, Romans and Galatians~and we still do, unto this very day.

You show me, or someone else from your infallible church that which you said is~"An interpretation that has stood the test of time, not the thousands of biblical interpretations that exist amongst the thousands of other Christian sects."

The only interpretation that can stand the test of time, is the one that the scriptures supports in the present!   And it is surely not Catholicism, which is nothing more than what your forefathers held to, which is known in the scriptures as the sect of the Pharisees.  Same bird, different colors of feathers.  Same spirit, same doctrine, same like traditions, and I might add~The same judgment of God upon it.   Your house, that you so gloriously trust in, shall be left desolate not so far into the future.  The mouth of God hath spoken it.  Selah.

RB

[DaveW]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

Hello Dave,

I am not sure why you said this??

Natural reaction to a poorly worded statement.  I do understand what the OP wanted to say; but the way it is phrased means that they are going to heaven while still alive.

[Red Baker]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

Hello Dave,

I am not sure why you said this??

Natural reaction to a poorly worded statement.  I do understand what the OP wanted to say; but the way it is phrased means that they are going to heaven while still alive.

I see why you said it.  Generally Catholics are quick to defend their beliefs, yet when I come to debate this simple point with them, they all run for hills.

RB

[winsome]

"... going to heaven while they are alive."

I thought most people (exception of Elijah and Enoch) went to heaven after they died .....

Hello Dave,

I am not sure why you said this??

Natural reaction to a poorly worded statement.  I do understand what the OP wanted to say; but the way it is phrased means that they are going to heaven while still alive.

I see why you said it.  Generally Catholics are quick to defend their beliefs, yet when I come to debate this simple point with them, they all run for hills.

RB

A question was asked in the OP and it was answered, and the follow up. The questioner seems satisfied with the replies.

As far as I am concerned your intervention was off topic and I'm not interested in yet another grace vs works thread or your Calvanist ideas of pre-destination which I have already been through with you.

Shalom!

[AVZ]

It's a little bit haughty of you to put down the idea of asking for God's mercy I would say.

But you conveiniently ignore all the Scriptures that say the opposite of what you say. You know, the ones that tell us we are judged by our actions and the like?  You see, I take both into consideration - God's promise and my messups. On  Judgement Day, God could deny you your salvation just because he wants to. He has that power and there is nothing you could do to change that reality. So yes, I will beg for mercy for my sins upon my entry into the next world, all the while relying on Jesus to advocate for me. But in the end God Almighty could turn to his son and and say about me: "I don't like this guy so much" and send me straight to hades. 

I do understand your reasoning, but I doubt you are on the right track here.
Judgement Day is not some kid kind of election day where most votes count.
As you are aware both the Son and the Father are part of the Trinity and their main goal is to let as much as possible souls pass into heaven.
I cannot imagine a situation where the Son says: Well, this guy can enter...and the Father being in disagreement with Him.

See, as much as God has all the power to do what He wants, He cannot break His word or divert from it.
There is an assurance of heaven for those who believe in their hearts and profess with their mouth.

[DaveW]

As you are aware both the Son and the Father are part of the Trinity and their main goal is to let as much as possible souls pass into heaven.

There is not a lot of agreement on that point.

Bishop Joseph Garlington (of Promise Keepers) said once that the "national mother" of his denomination attended his congregation when he was a kid and she taught that only about 7 or 8 people from all of time and eternity got to go to heaven.  (not even all of the 12)

[AVZ]

As you are aware both the Son and the Father are part of the Trinity and their main goal is to let as much as possible souls pass into heaven.

There is not a lot of agreement on that point.

Bishop Joseph Garlington (of Promise Keepers) said once that the "national mother" of his denomination attended his congregation when he was a kid and she taught that only about 7 or 8 people from all of time and eternity got to go to heaven.  (not even all of the 12)

I doubt this is a very popular theory among the various denominations.
From what I am aware of, there is more agreement on the point then there is disagreement?

[DaveW]

I doubt this is a very popular theory among the various denominations.
From what I am aware of, there is more agreement on the point then there is disagreement?

On that particular point, it is not popular.  But the idea that God is trying to make it possible for "As much as possible" to make it into heaven, no there is no agreement on that.

Each group believes that God is limiting access to their pet doctrine; whether it is the UPC and being baptized in the name of "Jesus ONLY" or other pentecostals who say you have to speak in tongues to be saved to some cessationist groups that believe that if you speak in tongues you cannot be saved to the radical KJVOs who say that if you read a bible other than ole king Jimmy you are doomed, to the Yashuans who believe using the name "Jesus" is actually calling on the greek king of their pantheon zeus.  If you are Church of Christ (old line conservative) playing an instrument in church will cost you your place in heaven as will missing any of the 5 (not 4, not 6) elements of worship EVERY SUNDAY. And to that point is the old line conservative SDA who claim that meeting on Sunday is the mark of the beast.

Everyone of these groups believe that God is extremely limiting salvation and they think they have the proper key to get in.   They do not believe the goal is to "...let as much as possible souls pass into heaven."  They believe the exact opposite.

In fact it is my opinion that the ONLY reason many of these groups exist is to promote their "key;" and if that is found to not be the key, they have no reason to exist.

[AVZ]

I doubt this is a very popular theory among the various denominations.
From what I am aware of, there is more agreement on the point then there is disagreement?

On that particular point, it is not popular.  But the idea that God is trying to make it possible for "As much as possible" to make it into heaven, no there is no agreement on that.

Each group believes that God is limiting access to their pet doctrine; whether it is the UPC and being baptized in the name of "Jesus ONLY" or other pentecostals who say you have to speak in tongues to be saved to some cessationist groups that believe that if you speak in tongues you cannot be saved to the radical KJVOs who say that if you read a bible other than ole king Jimmy you are doomed, to the Yashuans who believe using the name "Jesus" is actually calling on the greek king of their pantheon zeus.  If you are Church of Christ (old line conservative) playing an instrument in church will cost you your place in heaven as will missing any of the 5 (not 4, not 6) elements of worship EVERY SUNDAY. And to that point is the old line conservative SDA who claim that meeting on Sunday is the mark of the beast.

Everyone of these groups believe that God is extremely limiting salvation and they think they have the proper key to get in.   They do not believe the goal is to "...let as much as possible souls pass into heaven."  They believe the exact opposite.

In fact it is my opinion that the ONLY reason many of these groups exist is to promote their "key;" and if that is found to not be the key, they have no reason to exist.

Is it not many on this board that mentions the 13000 different denominations?
What then causes the 5 or 6 you mention above to be a generalization as "there is no agreement"?

On the contrary, there are only a few groups that claim exclusive entry into heaven.
And that is besides the fact that much understanding is missing towards the exact teaching of the odd few.

Although disputed and argued, even the statements made by the RCC in the past could lead to the understanding that salvation is only achievable by those who submit to the Holy See.
And in this particular case, the promotion of the "key" or "keys" indeed is a sensitive matter.

But what do I argue, and not let the Bible speak for itself.
Are there not many rooms in the House of our Father?
Does the Bible not speak of a multitude without number?

If God would not be interested to save as many souls as possible, why even bother sending His Son and extending His grace to us?

1 Timothy 2:4
"since He wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."


2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because He does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I actually delight in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign LORD? Do I not prefer that he turn from his wicked conduct and live?"


Instead of your statement that there is not a lot of agreement on the intentions of God, if you do check, you will find that the vast majority will agree.

[DaveW]

Yes Revelation definitely speaks of the multitude beyond all number from every tribe and nation and tongue.

But the 5-6 groups I mentioned are typical of almost every congregation I have ever even visited and that covers a LOT of denominational territory over the last 50 years.   I do not have the time (nor would the mods allow me the room) to delineate every instance. And these are just the ones I have come across with me being just one person.

With the rise of the internet over the last 2 decades, much of that animus between the various groups seems to be fading. IMO that is a good thing and why I participate on discussion sites such as this.

[AVZ]

Dave,

I fear that my statement "And that is besides the fact that much understanding is missing towards the exact teaching of the odd few." may lead to some misunderstanding.
Hence I would like to give an example.

You for example state "radical KJVOs who say that if you read a bible other than ole king Jimmy you are doomed".
Well, first of all KJVO is not a denomination. A KJVO-er is a person that argues that only the KJV translation of the Bible is correct and inspired.
Perhaps a bit similar to Catholics preferring their own translation, for example the Douay-Rheims.

Secondly, KJVO-ers can be found cross denomination.

Thirdly, and most importantly, KJVO-ers in general do NOT claim that people who do not read the KJV translation are doomed.

See, a lot of our claims about denominations are based on fables and misinformation.
(Reminder to myself: Remember this when discussing with Catholics)
Does the Church of Christ really teach that they who do play an instrument in church will go to hell?

Do Pentecostals really say that if you do not speak in tongues you go to hell?
And do "some" (whoever these "some" may be) cessationist groups really teach you go to hell if you speak in tongues?

See, your statements are as unclear as they are untrue.
Surely I agree with you that there are many exceptions among the believers, but eh...just to be sure...are you sure these "exceptions" cannot be found in the RCC?
The RCC does not have hard-liners? And do they represent the majority?

You really don't have to look too far.
Just compare the various participants on this board and you will find differences in opinion.
But I do not think anybody here claims that the other is doomed and is beyond salvation.

[AVZ]

Yes Revelation definitely speaks of the multitude beyond all number from every tribe and nation and tongue.

But the 5-6 groups I mentioned are typical of almost every congregation I have ever even visited and that covers a LOT of denominational territory over the last 50 years.   I do not have the time (nor would the mods allow me the room) to delineate every instance. And these are just the ones I have come across with me being just one person.

With the rise of the internet over the last 2 decades, much of that animus between the various groups seems to be fading. IMO that is a good thing and why I participate on discussion sites such as this.

Dave,

I am afraid you are confusing things.
Teaching your believes as the right path to salvation is different from condemning others for following a different path.
Let me give you an example:

I was brought up with celebrating Sunday as a day of rest. We did not sell things because that was labor, and we did not buy things because someone had to do labor for you.
In the opinion of my parents, that's the way to keep Gods command.
On Sunday, after church, we usually had some family coming over for coffee, maybe a few drinks and a good cigar.

Years later I ended up at the other side of the world and went to church.
After the service some members invited me for lunch, and to my surprise I was brought to the nearest restaurant.
I did accept the invitation, and during lunch I told the hosts that I was brought up not to buy things on Sunday in line with Gods command.

After having had an exquisite lunch, I leaned backwards, and lighted up a nice cigarette.
Have you ever seen the comments I got! Christians do not smoke because your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.


What the above illustrates is that many people believe different things and follow different rules.
But far would it be for me to condemn my host for going to a restaurant on Sunday, and far would it be for him to condemn me for smoking.

See, the easiest way to create a misunderstanding is to say:
Look at that group. They do not buy and sell on Sunday...so they think everybody that does goes to hell.
or
Look at that group. They do not smoke...so they think all smokers go to hell.

I am sure you got my point.

[grams]

I am not here to fight ! 
I know the church has made a big differenc in the last 20some years.
But I left before that .

But when I was a Catholic , I was always afraid of death !

Because I felt I was always going to hell .
If I missed mass that was a big sin, and if I died before confession I was on my way to hell.
Purgatory if I had a small sin.    Which I now know this is not true.

But it does make me wonder  about the people who died before the church changed.  And my family , were are they ?
We were not told to use a bible.   
I had gone to the Catholic  school for 6 years.  Mass 6 days a week and the mass was in Latin and the days the priest would talk , give the gospel and read from the book he had.   That was in Polish.
And of course I did not understand either.   So it was day dream time.
We were told we had to go to the 9 'O'clock mass.  That was for children.
Why most of us did not understand any of that!
I am so very glad they have changed.   I am sure those who have not had to do this will not understand me, and think I am starting a argument.
No I am not.    I just would like for those who have not experienced this to know why some people  knock the church.   If you were there at that time you could not speak unless spoken to .  Among other things.
I do hope this will help the Catholic of today to understand , how it was !
And how blessed you are today....... 

[Star of David]

I've heard that Catholics aren't sure if they will make it to heaven.

As a Catholic, you're right. Catholics leave that judgment up to God.

Protestants, on the other hand, do God's job for Him ahead of time. And some of them get surprised, I am sure.

[Red Baker]

I am not here to fight ! 
I know the church has made a big differenc in the last 20some years.
But I left before that .

But when I was a Catholic , I was always afraid of death !

Because I felt I was always going to hell .
If I missed mass that was a big sin, and if I died before confession I was on my way to hell.
Purgatory if I had a small sin.    Which I now know this is not true.

But it does make me wonder  about the people who died before the church changed.  And my family , were are they ?
We were not told to use a bible.   
I had gone to the Catholic  school for 6 years.  Mass 6 days a week and the mass was in Latin and the days the priest would talk , give the gospel and read from the book he had.   That was in Polish.
And of course I did not understand either.   So it was day dream time.
We were told we had to go to the 9 'O'clock mass.  That was for children.
Why most of us did not understand any of that!
I am so very glad they have changed.   I am sure those who have not had to do this will not understand me, and think I am starting a argument.
No I am not.    I just would like for those who have not experienced this to know why some people  knock the church.   If you were there at that time you could not speak unless spoken to .  Among other things.
I do hope this will help the Catholic of today to understand , how it was !
And how blessed you are today.......

What a blessed testimony!  Thanks grams.  What a confession from a tender conscience!  The Lord bless you.

RB

[grams]

Thank You  Red Baker  !

I sure do hope this will help all the Catholic people who read this , can understand why and how things are now different. 

I have not been in a C. C. in a lot of years .   And I do pray that they have canged , and know about salvation .   Which I did not know ! 

[BlackSepulcher]

On the subject of mortal sin, it's important to understand that a mortal sin does not necessarily mean immanent damnation unless it is repented.
Mortal sin is what makes one subject to the possibility of damnation. They are the sins that you will be made to give an account of at Judgement, by which God will decide whether one should inherit the Kingdom.

As such, a Catholic does not live in mortal fear of Hell. A common thing among Catholics is guilt, because we are taught to recognize our errors in relevance to the perfect nature of God and the holy sacrifice of Christ. The Church's outward teaching is of a bit more serious and appropriately archaic temperament.

[mclees8]

On the subject of mortal sin, it's important to understand that a mortal sin does not necessarily mean immanent damnation unless it is repented.
Mortal sin is what makes one subject to the possibility of damnation. They are the sins that you will be made to give an account of at Judgement, by which God will decide whether one should inherit the Kingdom.

As such, a Catholic does not live in mortal fear of Hell. A common thing among Catholics is guilt, because we are taught to recognize our errors in relevance to the perfect nature of God and the holy sacrifice of Christ. The Church's outward teaching is of a bit more serious and appropriately archaic temperament.

I am not sure you have the correct theology about sin and account before Christ. The Lord knows you walk and your every failing and the repentant heart before you ever pass on. I do not believe one who is truly saved would do deliberate mortal sin. Yes there is sin unto death but one will not have to give account in the judgment seat of Christ for he already knows one's remorse . I'm working the graveyard shift  and do not have my Bible with me right now but I know about the judgment seat of Christ where our works shall be tested but  it is not going to be a thing where heaven or hell is determined. That judgment will come at the great white throne but your fate is already been determined and each one will know at that time just why hell awaits them.