Universalism:

[LaSpino3]

The distinguishing characteristic of Universalists is the belief in the final holiness and happiness of the whole (all of the) human race. Universalist claim there is a place of punishment for sin after this life ends, and in time, even this punishment will end. Example, Catholic's teach purgatory, and in time those who die in sin will leave this place coming to a state of perfection and live happily ever-after.

Is this teaching found in the Bible?  Let me begin this discussion with,

Matt.7:13, Jesus said, "Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there will be which go in thereat; Because narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

You thoughts,

Phil LaSpino

[Catholica]

The distinguishing characteristic of Universalists is the belief in the final holiness and happiness of the whole (all of the) human race. Universalist claim there is a place of punishment for sin after this life ends, and in time, even this punishment will end. Example, Catholic's teach purgatory, and in time those who die in sin will leave this place coming to a state of perfection and live happily ever-after.

Is this teaching found in the Bible?  Let me begin this discussion with,

Matt.7:13, Jesus said, "Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there will be which go in thereat; Because narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

You thoughts,

Phil LaSpino

My thoughts are that purgatory is not universalism, if you think otherwise, then either you don't understand Catholic theology or you don't understand universalism.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

My thoughts are that purgatory is not universalism, if you think otherwise, then either you don't understand Catholic theology or you don't understand universalism.

Agree.  Although I don't believe in purgatory, it was never envisaged as a place for all men.

Purgatory is said to be for believers who need a little extra purification before they get to heaven.  Unbelievers still go to hell in this view.

As for the Bible, there are abundant verses that talk about God's work as being for "all men" or "mankind."  However, there are just as many that talk about men not accepting God's work, and rejecting correction.  It takes two to tango!

Jarrod

[Ben]

Purgatory, my favorite tradition of man invented by the RCC to extract millions of dollars from the loved ones left behind.  I'm sure it contributes a significant portion of the 170 BILLION dollars the RCC takes in every year.  Supposedly the poor sinner's sins left a "stain" on his soul that poor Christ's ineffective blood just couldn't quite take care of so he is sent to purgatory where he is subjected to fire which will "purge" his sin stained soul.  The RCC uses 1 Cor 3: 15 as a proof text to "prove" purgatory.  The problem is 1 Cor 3:15 says "If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."  Note what is subjected to fire HIS WORKS and NOT the man.  So supposedly after several weeks, months or maybe years (and after LOTS of $$$ has been paid) the priest finally declares that the sinner is now in bliss. I guess they never read Heb 1:3 where we read "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."  Christ "purged" our sins by Himself.  He doesn't need purgatory to "help" Him purge sins.

Ben

[Catholica]

So the question is, LaSpino, whether you want to talk about purgatory or you want to talk about universalism.  They are different things.   I assume the answer is universalism, since that is the title of the thread.

[LaSpino3]

OK, I will retract the statement that Purgatory has only a hint of being connected with Universalism, in that all men are not saved, but some may be saved if they die in their sins. This through the masses, prayer, and financial assistance to the church. 

But as Ben has stated, and as I will ask, "If Christ died for us (all men) and has redeemed us from sin and hell, as the Scriptures state, then the idea of any further meritorious suffering for even one person appears to take away the perfection of Jesus finished work, and places a certain amount of  value, or merit on the works of men, a teaching that is opposed in the Scripture.

Phil LaSpino

[TruthScientist]

1 Co. 3 is about the Bema Judgment.  This is the Judgment for believers and their works of what sort.  The fire will either burn them or purify them.  The believer who does not work will be judged... 

The unbelievers judgment will be the Great White Throne Judgement...

[Catholica]

OK, I will retract the statement that Purgatory has only a hint of being connected with Universalism, in that all men are not saved, but some may be saved if they die in their sins. This through the masses, prayer, and financial assistance to the church. 

No, a person who is in purgatory has already been saved.  The error is equating salvation with instant access to heaven.  The suffering that souls undergo in purgatory is for purifying men from their sins.  These men are already saved if they get there, they have the absolute assurance that one day they will enter heaven.

Purification of souls can be aided by the Church on Earth through gaining indulgences from the merits of Christ (Jesus' work), and through offering masses for their souls, which is the sacrifice of Calvary (Jesus' work).  Stipends for the work of the priests is offered for these masses, typically $5.  This is an extremely meager offering for the priest's work, a mass taking more than one hour to perform.  The Church is not getting rich on mass stipends.  Ben is wrong about that.

And essentially, the only thing that is being done is that some person is willingly making a small sacrifice of their own, in union with Christ, and this helps purify their souls, souls that have already been saved.  There is no earning salvation whatsoever through anyone's works or money.

But as Ben has stated, and as I will ask, "If Christ died for us (all men) and has redeemed us from sin and hell, as the Scriptures state, then the idea of any further meritorious suffering for even one person appears to take away the perfection of Jesus finished work, and places a certain amount of  value, or merit on the works of men, a teaching that is opposed in the Scripture.

Phil LaSpino

The part that I have bolded above is an error.  Here is scripture contradicting it:

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

According to Paul, something is "lacking" in Christ's afflictions.  Are Christ's afflictions not perfect?  Indeed they are perfect, but what is lacking is simply our participation in them, which according to Paul, helps the body of Christ, the Church.  Christ's work is perfect, but is made more perfect, in a sense, by our participation in them.

Also we are privileged through the gospel, through Jesus, to "take part in the divine nature":

2 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The divine nature is one that effects another person's salvation and sanctification, is it not?  We cannot do this on our own, but by Christ working through us.  Through Christ we become God's co-workers, working with God to effect reconciliation with God:

1 Cor. 3:9 For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building.

2 Cor. 5:8 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

Thus the gospel is more than just that Jesus saves us, but also that he has raised us to the dignity of being children of God, of being brothers and sister to God, to being able to have life to the full, and take part in the saving work of Jesus for all men, which is true life indeed, and being able to take part in the divine nature, the saving work of God, through Jesus.

Thus in life we are able to pray for our fellow man and have God's saving power flow through us, and that saving power is one both of salvation and sanctification.  Even in purgatory we are part of that one vine, and the co-working with Jesus of those in Christ's kingdom can still affect sanctification of saved souls in purgatory.

This takes nothing away from Christ's work, but rather fulfills it to it's intended use, which is to make us co-workers with God.  Jesus made it all possible for us, and it is impossible without what he did.

[LaSpino3]

Catholica wrote, "Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

According to Paul, something is "lacking" in Christ's afflictions.  Are Christ's afflictions not perfect?  Indeed they are perfect, but what is lacking is simply our participation in them, which according to Paul, helps the body of Christ, the Church.  Christ's work is perfect, but is made more perfect, in a sense, by our participation in them.

Phil replies, "No exactly! Paul was telling the Gentile that he has suffered for them for preaching the gospel to them. And because this was a good cause, he rejoiced in his suffering. The Jews were angry with him because he said God had chosen the Gentiles, calling them and asserting that they would enjoy the same privileges as the Jews, and that the Gentiles were now united with believing Jews.

Because of this the Jews attempted to kill him, and in order to save his life, he had to appeal to Caesar.

Also, Perfect means just that, you can add nothing to perfection, nothing at all.

None of the other verses have anything to do with praying anyone out of purgatory. But thanks for your reply.

Phil LaSpino

[Catholica]

Catholica wrote, "Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

According to Paul, something is "lacking" in Christ's afflictions.  Are Christ's afflictions not perfect?  Indeed they are perfect, but what is lacking is simply our participation in them, which according to Paul, helps the body of Christ, the Church.  Christ's work is perfect, but is made more perfect, in a sense, by our participation in them.

Phil replies, "No exactly! Paul was telling the Gentile that he has suffered for them for preaching the gospel to them. And because this was a good cause, he rejoiced in his suffering. The Jews were angry with him because he said God had chosen the Gentiles, calling them and asserting that they would enjoy the same privileges as the Jews, and that the Gentiles were now united with believing Jews.

Because of this the Jews attempted to kill him, and in order to save his life, he had to appeal to Caesar.

Also, Perfect means just that, you can add nothing to perfection, nothing at all.

None of the other verses have anything to do with praying anyone out of purgatory. But thanks for your reply.

Phil LaSpino

You didn't deal with Paul saying there was something lacking in Christ's afflictions.  Which was a major point.

[HRoberson]

Catholica wrote, "Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

According to Paul, something is "lacking" in Christ's afflictions.  Are Christ's afflictions not perfect?  Indeed they are perfect, but what is lacking is simply our participation in them, which according to Paul, helps the body of Christ, the Church.  Christ's work is perfect, but is made more perfect, in a sense, by our participation in them.

Phil replies, "No exactly! Paul was telling the Gentile that he has suffered for them for preaching the gospel to them. And because this was a good cause, he rejoiced in his suffering. The Jews were angry with him because he said God had chosen the Gentiles, calling them and asserting that they would enjoy the same privileges as the Jews, and that the Gentiles were now united with believing Jews.

Because of this the Jews attempted to kill him, and in order to save his life, he had to appeal to Caesar.

Also, Perfect means just that, you can add nothing to perfection, nothing at all.

None of the other verses have anything to do with praying anyone out of purgatory. But thanks for your reply.

Phil LaSpino

You didn't deal with Paul saying there was something lacking in Christ's afflictions.  Which was a major point.

I do not believe Scripture teaches universalism, but I have no quarrel with God's grace however it is applied.

[HRoberson]

Catholica wrote, "Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

According to Paul, something is "lacking" in Christ's afflictions.  Are Christ's afflictions not perfect?  Indeed they are perfect, but what is lacking is simply our participation in them, which according to Paul, helps the body of Christ, the Church.  Christ's work is perfect, but is made more perfect, in a sense, by our participation in them.

Phil replies, "No exactly! Paul was telling the Gentile that he has suffered for them for preaching the gospel to them. And because this was a good cause, he rejoiced in his suffering. The Jews were angry with him because he said God had chosen the Gentiles, calling them and asserting that they would enjoy the same privileges as the Jews, and that the Gentiles were now united with believing Jews.

Because of this the Jews attempted to kill him, and in order to save his life, he had to appeal to Caesar.

Also, Perfect means just that, you can add nothing to perfection, nothing at all.

None of the other verses have anything to do with praying anyone out of purgatory. But thanks for your reply.

Phil LaSpino

You didn't deal with Paul saying there was something lacking in Christ's afflictions.  Which was a major point.

If the church is the body of Christ, she gives herself over to death not for her own sake but for the sake of the world. Her sufferings join with Christ's in delivering the world from darkness.

[Johnb]

HR said I do not believe Scripture teaches universalism, but I have no quarrel with God's grace however it is applied.

My view exactly HR.  Amen. 

[Catholica]

Also, Perfect means just that, you can add nothing to perfection, nothing at all.

Yet Paul says that he is making up for "what is lacking with regard to Christ's afflictions".  By your logic, Christ's sacrifice was not perfect, because if it was, then Paul could add nothing to it.

[Ben]

Christ is "lacking" in absolutely nothing and to even infer that somehow we must "make up" for this is preposterous.  This passage is difficult to understand especially in the light that Christ has two bodies. His former body of flesh and blood and His current body called the church.   This passage makes no reference to sufferings in expiation of sin and productive of merit. What it does teach is that believers should regard their sufferings less in relation to themselves as individuals, and more as parts of a grand whole, carrying out God's perfect plan.

Ben

[Theodore A. Jones]

OK, I will retract the statement that Purgatory has only a hint of being connected with Universalism, in that all men are not saved, but some may be saved if they die in their sins. This through the masses, prayer, and financial assistance to the church. 

But as Ben has stated, and as I will ask, "If Christ died for us (all men) and has redeemed us from sin and hell, as the Scriptures state, then the idea of any further meritorious suffering for even one person appears to take away the perfection of Jesus finished work, and places a certain amount of  value, or merit on the works of men, a teaching that is opposed in the Scripture.

Phil LaSpino

That Christ died for us is true, but he did not died in place of us. If he had died in place of us and it is just the act of crucifying him that has redeemed us then the benefit must be universal. The scriptures do not state as you say. 

[TruthScientist]

Catholica wrote, "Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

According to Paul, something is "lacking" in Christ's afflictions.  Are Christ's afflictions not perfect?  Indeed they are perfect, but what is lacking is simply our participation in them, which according to Paul, helps the body of Christ, the Church.  Christ's work is perfect, but is made more perfect, in a sense, by our participation in them.

Phil replies, "No exactly! Paul was telling the Gentile that he has suffered for them for preaching the gospel to them. And because this was a good cause, he rejoiced in his suffering. The Jews were angry with him because he said God had chosen the Gentiles, calling them and asserting that they would enjoy the same privileges as the Jews, and that the Gentiles were now united with believing Jews.

Because of this the Jews attempted to kill him, and in order to save his life, he had to appeal to Caesar.

Also, Perfect means just that, you can add nothing to perfection, nothing at all.

None of the other verses have anything to do with praying anyone out of purgatory. But thanks for your reply.

Phil LaSpino

This is an oxymoron...  How can anything be added to what is already perfect?  Christ has no flaws even in His humanity... 

[Ben]

The more I am a participant on these Christian forums and read what Catholics believe the more I see I must step up my prayers for them.  From what I can gather from reading their responses to a number of threads I have discovered that Christ's sacrifice on the cross just doesn't quite fill the bill. His "perfect" sacrifice isn't actually perfect!  Christ needs His mother to assist Him in redeeming mankind (she is the co-mediatrix with Christ.) Christ's blood didn't cleanse all sin from His children so they need purgatory to finish the job.  Priests in about six churches in the USA can now offer "plenary indulgences" for a "charitable donation" in other words as my Catholic friend from NYC said "ya cut da priest a nice fat check and yer guaranteed heaven."  So he did.  There is no such thing as imputed righteousness, as it is a fabrication of Protestant thinking so we must "add to" Christ's righteousness in order to appease that wrathful angry God in heaven.

Amazing.

Ben

[TruthScientist]

The more I am a participant on these Christian forums and read what Catholics believe the more I see I must step up my prayers for them.  From what I can gather from reading their responses to a number of threads I have discovered that Christ's sacrifice on the cross just doesn't quite fill the bill. His "perfect" sacrifice isn't actually perfect!  Christ needs His mother to assist Him in redeeming mankind (she is the co-mediatrix with Christ.) Christ's blood didn't cleanse all sin from His children so they need purgatory to finish the job.  Priests in about six churches in the USA can now offer "plenary indulgences" for a "charitable donation" in other words as my Catholic friend from NYC said "ya cut da priest a nice fat check and yer guaranteed heaven."  So he did.  There is no such thing as imputed righteousness, as it is a fabrication of Protestant thinking so we must "add to" Christ's righteousness in order to appease that wrathful angry God in heaven.

Amazing.

Ben

This is what we get when people are allowed to use special revelations and extra bible books...  you can come up with what ever flavor you like...

[epiphanius]

The more I am a participant on these Christian forums and read what Catholics believe the more I see I must step up my prayers for them.

Thank you.  (No sarcasm intended.)

From what I can gather from reading their responses to a number of threads I have discovered that Christ's sacrifice on the cross just doesn't quite fill the bill. His "perfect" sacrifice isn't actually perfect!

I have reflected a long time on how something could be "lacking to the afflictions of Christ," as St. Paul affirms in Col. 1:24.  I came up with something that seems to work.

Beginning with Romans 8, we have: "For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh ..." (Rom. 8:3)  This is important, since although Christ took on our human nature in every aspect except sin, He did not take on our sinfulness.  In other words, even though He took our sins with Him to the cross, He did not on that account--or any other--become contaminated by them (i.e. sinful).  From this, it follows that although we are united with Christ by grace, that union remains imperfect in this life (on our end, not His), because we continue to sin.  However, it is precisely because of this duality in us (justified yet sinful) that we are united to the rest of fallen humanity (i.e. the unsaved) in a way that He cannot be.  Thus, when we share in the cross of Christ, our sharing in His glory becomes real--not merely analogous or simulated--which means that we are in a sense adding something to the sacrifice of Christ.

[BlackSepulcher]

The distinguishing characteristic of Universalists is the belief in the final holiness and happiness of the whole (all of the) human race. Universalist claim there is a place of punishment for sin after this life ends, and in time, even this punishment will end. Example, Catholic's teach purgatory, and in time those who die in sin will leave this place coming to a state of perfection and live happily ever-after.

Is this teaching found in the Bible?  Let me begin this discussion with,

Matt.7:13, Jesus said, "Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there will be which go in thereat; Because narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

You thoughts,

Phil LaSpino

It is not a teaching in Catholicism. In fact, it is the Church herself who originally deemed universalism a heresy.

Purgatory is a temporal cleansing of the soul for those saved. Calling it 'punishment' is a bit misleading:
God requires satisfaction, and your venial sins must be accounted for.

The mortally sinful are subject to the possibility of eternal damnation. It is important to note that these sins, however grave, do not automatically condemn one- they rather will be the subject of your account when you are judged so that you know the reason for the judgement put upon you, whether it be salvation or damnation.

There is a beautiful grace in this respect, which the Church fully illustrates. She does not, however, posit universalism in any way.

[mclees8]

The distinguishing characteristic of Universalists is the belief in the final holiness and happiness of the whole (all of the) human race. Universalist claim there is a place of punishment for sin after this life ends, and in time, even this punishment will end. Example, Catholic's teach purgatory, and in time those who die in sin will leave this place coming to a state of perfection and live happily ever-after.

Is this teaching found in the Bible?  Let me begin this discussion with,

Matt.7:13, Jesus said, "Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there will be which go in thereat; Because narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

You thoughts,

Phil LaSpino

It is not a teaching in Catholicism. In fact, it is the Church herself who originally deemed universalism a heresy.

Purgatory is a temporal cleansing of the soul for those saved. Calling it 'punishment' is a bit misleading:
God requires satisfaction, and your venial sins must be accounted for.

The mortally sinful are subject to the possibility of eternal damnation. It is important to note that these sins, however grave, do not automatically condemn one- they rather will be the subject of your account when you are judged so that you know the reason for the judgement put upon you, whether it be salvation or damnation.

There is a beautiful grace in this respect, which the Church fully illustrates. She does not, however, posit universalism in any way.

I just would like you to post where in our knew testament this  secondary cleansing of sin for the believers is mentioned. it says our works will be tried yet the person is still saved even if by fire. This fire is simply the shame of having our works burned and our having  loss of reward. No purgatory from the imaginations of men  If it were so then even the pope will have to go there and serve his time. But is this as the courts of men. will our transgression be measured and sentence pronounced and how much time will one have to serve according to the degree of his sin unless you think that there are perfect Christians who never sinned in any form since they believed.  What do you think? Is the pope exempt or is any of the saints of the church. How long must they serve?

Where then is the grace of God that that pardons sin without punishment because it is already known of God that all have sinned because we all under sin in the present dispensation. Where fore grace simply crushes satan by unconditional forgiveness for all who choose to believe and follow the admonition to confess ones weaknesses before Christ. 

[BlackSepulcher]

I just would like you to post where in our knew testament this  secondary cleansing of sin for the believers is mentioned. it says our works will be tried yet the person is still saved even if by fire. This fire is simply the shame of having our works burned and our having  loss of reward.

That interpretation is completely arbitrary. It is wrought by your belief that God doesn't require satisfaction after forgiveness, and that simply is not true.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, they were forgiven. But they weren't placed back in grace, they had to live with their fallen nature and were cast out of Eden. In order for man to maintain itself in God, they had to obey the Old Law which was exaction for every sin.

We are forgiven through Jesus, and so we do not need the Old Law, but we still have to live with our sins. If we were cleansed of our sins in the context your belief demands it, then there shouldn't be a remnant of those sins thereafter.

You are still left to account for those sins, and if you do not do it, God does- because He is a perfect God, and He demands satisfaction. If Jesus had to be crucified to satisfy our salvation, then Purgatory has to be there to satisfy being with God, having the Beatific Vision.

It is a very simple and logical doctrine, it is not an arbitrary claim of the Church. In fact, the RCC had deduced Purgatory and as much as nobody liked taking advice from the Church, many churches, particularly Easter Orthodox, had to concede it's existence. Furthermore, the Church of England, although refusing to indoctrinate it, does not consider it heresy to accept or deny it- it is open to speculation because there simply is nothing to vanquish the notion.

Even Luther knew the same, and that is why you don't hear much anything of it in reformist literature. Why Protestants today are so adamant in denying it is a bit odd, but not really a mystery- it's due to Catholic paranoia.