Is Saturday Sabbath Observance Essential?

[Hobie]

In fact is any day of worship an essential part and in keeping with Christ's Gospel message. Do we really need a day of worship, or does worship matter to God, if not then what does scripture mean by the following:

John 9:31
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

[Beta]

There is another ' essential' when it comes to 'worshipping God...
Joh.4v23, but the hour comes and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeks such to worship him.
v24 , God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth .

without TRUTH worship is in vain ....
for the TRUTH shall make you free (from error and sin) Joh.8v32

[Beta]

Not only is the 7th day Sabbath sanctified and holy time to God Lev.23;
all His ' holy Days' are ''appointed times to assemble before Him'

people no longer pay attention to GOD's appointments and are therefore void of hearing the Truths coming from His Lips !

[chosenone]

No its not essential and Paul makes this clear. However we are not to judge those who do or don't think that they need to keep the Sabbath Paul says, so I must not judge those who do think they need to keep this day different from the other days of the week.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

No its not essential and Paul makes this clear. However we are not to judge those who do or don't think that they need to keep the Sabbath Paul says, so I must not judge those who do think they need to keep this day different from the other days of the week.

Where does Paul say that?!

[chosenone]

No its not essential and Paul makes this clear. However we are not to judge those who do or don't think that they need to keep the Sabbath Paul says, so I must not judge those who do think they need to keep this day different from the other days of the week.

Where does Paul say that?!

Colossians 2:16-17

Amplified Bible (AMP)


16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.

17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.


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[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

No its not essential and Paul makes this clear. However we are not to judge those who do or don't think that they need to keep the Sabbath Paul says, so I must not judge those who do think they need to keep this day different from the other days of the week.

Where does Paul say that?!

Colossians 2:16-17

Amplified Bible (AMP)


16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.

17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.

A "SPECTRE / shadow / token" as real as the Object as real as the Light the Cause and Effect of the  "SPECTRE / shadow / token"—"THE SUBSTANCE OF IS CHRIST", SO REAL is the "shadow / token / spectre"—"these things which ARE: SABBATHS' FEAST OF CHRIST!"

[chosenone]

No its not essential and Paul makes this clear. However we are not to judge those who do or don't think that they need to keep the Sabbath Paul says, so I must not judge those who do think they need to keep this day different from the other days of the week.

Where does Paul say that?!

Colossians 2:16-17

Amplified Bible (AMP)


16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.

17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.

A "SPECTRE / shadow / token" as real as the Object as real as the Light the Cause and Effect of the  "SPECTRE / shadow / token"—"THE SUBSTANCE OF IS CHRIST", SO REAL is the "shadow / token / spectre"—"these things which ARE: SABBATHS' FEAST OF CHRIST!"

..............with regard to feast days OR a Sabbath. Two different things.

[johnm]

One verse theology is not the way to go. If the Law was absolute the Bible would only need one page; if there was a list of what to do, God would have given us a second page in the Bible; but God has given us the whole Bible as the bread of life; we are required to use much of it and grow into something called fruit. We know that some will be the greatest in the kingdom and receive much reward and others will be the least in the kingdom because they have taught others to sin.

There is a bigger problem; there is the truth and the lie; the covenant of God and the covenant of Satan; the lie is that Satan's covenant is way off in the future; the truth is Satan's covenant has been with us for 2000 years.
When you look out there do you see two mountains separated by a huge gulf or do you see a level playing field where the two covenants are not discernible and could easily be deceived into thinking one was nailed to the cross and the other hidden in a strange place called the seventieth week way off in the future. If we engage with Satan we should expect to be deceived. If we engage only with God we have a chance. If we go with the Bible alone we will have to keep the Sabbath; the Pope has said. The Bible alone means no isms like Dispensationalism or Catholicism or any ism.

Sabbaths and feast days, two out of many things, but one God and one covenant, what I mean is these two are not the division between God and Satan.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

..............with regard to feast days OR a Sabbath. Two different things.

'meh krinetoh en brohsei kai en posei eh (en brohsei kai en posei) en merei heortehs eh neomehnias eh sabbat-OHN ha estin....'

"not judge in eating and in drinking either with regard to (eating and drinking) OF FEAST .... OF SABBATHS WHICH are ...."

.... essentially ONE thing, "with regard to eating and drinking OF FEAST whether of month's or OF SABBATHS".

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Bla bla PLUS <<<Sabbaths and feast days, two out of many things, but one God and one covenant, what I mean is these two are not the division between God and Satan. >>>

.... a lot said to pave the way to say one thing which is inaccurate, <<Sabbaths and feast days, two out of many things, but one God and one covenant, what I mean is these two are not the division between God and Satan.>> In Colossians 2 it is the ONE FEAST OF SABBATHS' EATING AND DRINKING OF THE SUBSTANCE AND NOURISHMENT WHICH IS CHRIST.

Sermons are delivered in congregating Congregations where the EATING AND DRINKING is "IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH" which again, is an "eating and drinking OF CHRIST .... SABBATHS."

Which is the offensive part.

Which part is "with  regard to FEAST OF CHRIST -- SABBATHS".

Do with this text what you want you nor anybody in the world is able to separate "SABBATHS' FEAST-OF-CHRIST".

Remove "of Christ" you remove "of Sabbaths"; remove "of Sabbaths" you remove "of Christ".

USE LONG SERMONS OR SHORT JUDGMENTS, "Let no one entice you with beguiling words .... robbing you of your reward .... which is Christ the Substance OF SABBATHS' FEAST".

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

There is no shadow without a body and a light and a solid surface.
There is no shadow in airless space, yes, which like the whims of minds called ghosts are without substance.
But when the "shadow" is "OF THESE THINGS" and "THE SUBSTANCE IS OF CHRIST", "the shadow is OF SABBATH'S FEAST OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE -- the Body growing (and moving) with the growth (and movement) of God." verse 19.
Undeniable irrevocable and indissoluble REALITY thanks to "the TRUTH AS IT IS IN CHRIST"!
The truth of the Sabbath hits home like the judgments of God upon Athaliah.

[johnm]

<<There is no shadow without a body and a light and a solid surface.
There is no shadow in airless space, yes, which like the whims of minds called ghosts are without substance.
But when the "shadow" is "OF THESE THINGS" and "THE SUBSTANCE IS OF CHRIST", "the shadow is OF SABBATH'S FEAST OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE -- the Body growing (and moving) with the growth (and movement) of God." verse 19.
Undeniable irrevocable and indissoluble REALITY thanks to "the TRUTH AS IT IS IN CHRIST"!
The truth of the Sabbath hits home like the judgments of God upon Athaliah. >>


I am having trouble understanding you, but I expect you are like me and much of what you have to say stays in your mind and don't make it to paper.  Yet I see misinformation built on Paul being magnified in your words.

My understanding is; to keep the Law as a function of Law is an abomination and also was in OT times. But God operated differently to Paul; within a relatively short time of Moses giving the Law, thousands who would not comply were slaughtered because they were without excuse.

Paul, dealing with Pagans, up to their knees in idols and food sacrificed too idols, uses a slow approach of folding these Pagans into Israel; he starts with baby food, the assumption being they will proceed to strong meat. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul is saying that within the body of Christ there is a place for beginners.

However people who know me know that wouldn't trust Paul (the epistle) as far as I could kick him (it). Most of Christendom depend on Paul's epistles for their salvation, they let Big Paul correct little Christ on every point. It cannot be proved from scripture that the Sabbath has been changed or can it be proved from scripture that the Law and Covenant was abrogated on the cross; doctrines and authority of men are used for the allusion of abrogation.

Lets have a look at this:
Colossians 2:20-23 (KJV)
20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I can allow that Paul may have defined what he means by dead in Christ, but even so Paul must be talking about the departed, I would describe myself as being alive in Christ and Christ alive in me; even if barely so. A dead Christ is Roman Catholic theology.

Paul would never make such a ridiculous balls up as this; even as a deceiver, Paul would not blatantly  call the rudiments of God rudiments of the world, and he would not call the ordinances commandments and doctrines of men; bringing the things of God to nought or in vain is what some call the abomination of desolation. This could also be where the saying, "Hidden in plain sight," came from. 

My understanding, from Christ, is the living church is in the world but apart from the world and that the kingdom of God is among or within the living church and when any two or more gather Christ will be there. The kingdom that is coming is when the world is removed, among other things.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

<<There is no shadow without a body and a light and a solid surface.
There is no shadow in airless space, yes, which like the whims of minds called ghosts are without substance.
But when the "shadow" is "OF THESE THINGS" and "THE SUBSTANCE IS OF CHRIST", "the shadow is OF SABBATH'S FEAST OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE -- the Body growing (and moving) with the growth (and movement) of God." verse 19.
Undeniable irrevocable and indissoluble REALITY thanks to "the TRUTH AS IT IS IN CHRIST"!
The truth of the Sabbath hits home like the judgments of God upon Athaliah. >>


I am having trouble understanding you, but I expect you are like me and much of what you have to say stays in your mind and don't make it to paper.  Yet I see misinformation built on Paul being magnified in your words.

My understanding is; to keep the Law as a function of Law is an abomination and also was in OT times. But God operated differently to Paul; within a relatively short time of Moses giving the Law, thousands who would not comply were slaughtered because they were without excuse.

Paul, dealing with Pagans, up to their knees in idols and food sacrificed too idols, uses a slow approach of folding these Pagans into Israel; he starts with baby food, the assumption being they will proceed to strong meat. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul is saying that within the body of Christ there is a place for beginners.

However people who know me know that wouldn't trust Paul (the epistle) as far as I could kick him (it). Most of Christendom depend on Paul's epistles for their salvation, they let Big Paul correct little Christ on every point. It cannot be proved from scripture that the Sabbath has been changed or can it be proved from scripture that the Law and Covenant was abrogated on the cross; doctrines and authority of men are used for the allusion of abrogation.

Lets have a look at this:
Colossians 2:20-23 (KJV)
20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I can allow that Paul may have defined what he means by dead in Christ, but even so Paul must be talking about the departed, I would describe myself as being alive in Christ and Christ alive in me; even if barely so. A dead Christ is Roman Catholic theology.

Paul would never make such a ridiculous balls up as this; even as a deceiver, Paul would not blatantly  call the rudiments of God rudiments of the world, and he would not call the ordinances commandments and doctrines of men; bringing the things of God to nought or in vain is what some call the abomination of desolation. This could also be where the saying, "Hidden in plain sight," came from. 

My understanding, from Christ, is the living church is in the world but apart from the world and that the kingdom of God is among or within the living church and when any two or more gather Christ will be there. The kingdom that is coming is when the world is removed, among other things.

I allow myself to extract from your post what was profitable FOR ME, and specify:

: this,
<<<Colossians 2:20-23 (KJV)
20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh>>>

: is THE WORLD

: in STARKEST CONTRAST with,

: this,
<<<"Do not let judge you anyone in eating and drinking of Christ the SUBSTANCE OF SABBATHS' FEAST a spectre of things coming" — Do not let anyone beguile you of your REWARD CHRIST the nourishment ministered, the BODY GROWING with the growth OF GOD.">>>

: which is the CHURCH BODY OF CHRIST ---NOT of the world!

Further, it cannot be clearer than it IS— it cannot be clearer than what PAUL makes CLEAR it is

Period

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

<<<to keep the Law as a function of Law is an abomination and also was in OT times>>>

Grosser LIE is impossible.
NOT to keep the Law is an abomination and also was in OT times. As a function of Law transgression of it was 'rewarded' with DEATH—by GOD!

[DaveW]

..............with regard to feast days OR a Sabbath. Two different things.

'meh krinetoh en brohsei kai en posei eh (en brohsei kai en posei) en merei heortehs eh neomehnias eh sabbat-OHN ha estin....'

"not judge in eating and in drinking either with regard to (eating and drinking) OF FEAST .... OF SABBATHS WHICH are ...."

.... essentially ONE thing, "with regard to eating and drinking OF FEAST whether of month's or OF SABBATHS".

um - shabbaton is NOT the plural of sabbath.  (that would be shabbtotay)
I don't think -on makes a plural in Greek either. 

I believe the apostle was referring to Leviticus 23 where God calls the seventh day a Shabbat Shabbaton - a sabbath of rest.

the words Seven, Sabbath and Rest are all linguistically linked in Hebrew:

Shabbah, Shabbat, Shabbaton

[johnm]

<<<to keep the Law as a function of Law is an abomination and also was in OT times>>>

Grosser LIE is impossible.

NOT to keep the Law is an abomination and also was in OT times. As a function of Law transgression of it was 'rewarded' with DEATH—by GOD!<>>

A lie requires intent to deceive; this is not the case with me. There is intent to deceive by some of the larger religions to deceive when they abrogate the Law at/on the Cross. A more correct opinion that you may not like does not constitute a lie.

I read in the Bible about two weeks ago, "Too keep the Law not in the spirit is to mock God", I am not able to find it now. But even without that scripture God's people are always required to find the Law a delight. When the Law is a burden then those burdened have not entered into the covenant, the rest that is in Christ; the OT allowed for this as Christ explains in:

Matthew 23:37-38 (KJV)
37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

God does not Change, the Law/Covenant cannot Change; a part from Christ's declaration the Law defines the God of Israel uniquely from other Gods. 99% of Christendom believes the law is abrogated, so how do they know which God they worship; they honour Him by not keeping His commandments, they find the Law of God an offence.
   
God does not change and the Law is the same for everyone.
Leviticus 24:22 (ASV)
22  Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the sojourner, as for the home-born: for I am Jehovah your God.

Since the New Covenant not entering in is rewarded with the second death and second resurrection.

[Ladonia]

One verse theology is not the way to go. If the Law was absolute the Bible would only need one page; if there was a list of what to do, God would have given us a second page in the Bible; but God has given us the whole Bible as the bread of life; we are required to use much of it and grow into something called fruit. We know that some will be the greatest in the kingdom and receive much reward and others will be the least in the kingdom because they have taught others to sin.

There is a bigger problem; there is the truth and the lie; the covenant of God and the covenant of Satan; the lie is that Satan's covenant is way off in the future; the truth is Satan's covenant has been with us for 2000 years.
When you look out there do you see two mountains separated by a huge gulf or do you see a level playing field where the two covenants are not discernible and could easily be deceived into thinking one was nailed to the cross and the other hidden in a strange place called the seventieth week way off in the future. If we engage with Satan we should expect to be deceived. If we engage only with God we have a chance. If we go with the Bible alone we will have to keep the Sabbath; the Pope has said. The Bible alone means no isms like Dispensationalism or Catholicism or any ism.

Sabbaths and feast days, two out of many things, but one God and one covenant, what I mean is these two are not the division between God and Satan.

Do you  keep the other 600 and some odd Old Testament dictates also?

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

um - shabbaton is NOT the plural of sabbath.  (that would be shabbtotay)
I don't think -on makes a plural in Greek either. 

Really?

Who would have guessed!

Did I say <<shabbaton is the plural of sabbath>>?

I did not.

Did I say <<shabbaton>>?

I did not.

Was I using Hebrew words?

I was not.

Did I make 'one', <<a plural in Greek>>?

I did not.

Do I know what you are talking?

I do not.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

<<<to keep the Law as a function of Law is an abomination and also was in OT times>>>

Grosser LIE is impossible.

I reckon that depends on one's 'religious persuasion'.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I believe the apostle was referring to Leviticus 23 where God calls the seventh day a Shabbat Shabbaton - a sabbath of rest.

I -- on the other hand -- am very much of the opinion Paul is speaking about the Lord's Supper in Colossians 2:16 to 19, 'feasted' "OF SABBATHS, CHRIST BEING THE SUBSTANCE ... the HEAD and NOURISHMENT ministered ... the Body [the Church] growing with the growth of God".

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Paul's Great Parallel in Colossians 2 and Ephesians 4
Colossians 2
4 Now this I say lest any man should beguile you with enticing words:
Ephesians 4
14 That we be no more children tossed to and fro, carried about by every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men's cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Colossians 2
3 That their hearts might be comforted being  knit together in love unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God and of the Father and of Christ in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

Colossians 2
19 The Head from which all the Body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."
Ephesians 4
15,16 The Head, Christ, from which the whole Body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the Body unto edifying of itself in love

19 The Head from which
15,16 The Head, Christ, from which

19 the Body
16 the whole Body

19 by joints and bands knit together,
16 fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint

19 having nourishment ministered,
16 supplieth

19 increaseth with the increase of God
16 according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase

7 in the faith as ye have been taught.
16 unto edifying of itself in love.


The only noticeable difference between Ephesians 4 and Colossians 2 is that Paul brings the Lord's Supper and the "Sabbaths of" its observance "with regard to" the spiritual "eating and drinking of (its) Feast", together in Colossians 2, whereas he does not mention it in Ephesians 4.

[johnm]

<<One verse theology is not the way to go. If the Law was absolute the Bible would only need one page; if there was a list of what to do, God would have given us a second page in the Bible; but God has given us the whole Bible as the bread of life; we are required to use much of it and grow into something called fruit. We know that some will be the greatest in the kingdom and receive much reward and others will be the least in the kingdom because they have taught others to sin.

There is a bigger problem; there is the truth and the lie; the covenant of God and the covenant of Satan; the lie is that Satan's covenant is way off in the future; the truth is Satan's covenant has been with us for 2000 years.

When you look out there do you see two mountains separated by a huge gulf or do you see a level playing field where the two covenants are not discernible and could easily be deceived into thinking one was nailed to the cross and the other hidden in a strange place called the seventieth week way off in the future. If we engage with Satan we should expect to be deceived. If we engage only with God we have a chance. If we go with the Bible alone we will have to keep the Sabbath; the Pope has said. The Bible alone means no isms like Dispensationalism or Catholicism or any ism.

Sabbaths and feast days, two out of many things, but one God and one covenant, what I mean is these two are not the division between God and Satan. >>

???Do you  keep the other 600 and some odd Old Testament dictates also?

On a personal level ideally one should desire to commune with God in an ever deepening manner, in the manner that He has taught.

None of my comments are about you or me; I do not present myself as an example for others to follow; the issue is: do Christians follow Christ or doctrines of men; the thread: is Saturday Sabbath observance essential?

Yes! For those who have entered into the covenant.
No! For those who find the covenant an offence and who have abrogated the Law.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

More than one is talking past the other.

[johnm]

<<More than one is talking past the other.>>
Please explain?

The importance of the Law and the Sabbath to the New Covenant cannot be overstated. The fourth commandment contains the seal of God;
It contains His Name, Jehovah thy God
His office, creator,
His territory, heaven and earth.

It is interesting how God uses His seal
Revelation 7:2-3 (KJV)
2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ezekiel 20:12 (KJV)
12  Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Ezekiel 20:20 (KJV)
20  And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 31:13 (KJV)
13  Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 31:17 (KJV)
17  It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Galatians 3:29 (KJV)
29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 8:10 (KJV)
10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Isaiah 58:13 (KJV)
13  If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Luke 4:16 (KJV)
16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Isaiah 8:14-16 (KJV)
14  And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15  And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16  Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Revelation 9:4 (KJV)
4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The importance of the Law and the Sabbath to the New Covenant cannot be overstated. The fourth commandment contains the seal of God;
It contains His Name, Jehovah thy God
His office, creator,
His territory, heaven and earth.

<<The importance of the Law and the Sabbath>> can and regularly and grossly is <<overstated>>.

God is His Name.

His Name is God.

Yes, the Sabbath Commandment does <<contain His Name, Jehovah thy God>>. That does not make them the same, whereas God's Name and God are "ONE" and the same.  "The LORD IS ONE."

While <<the importance of the Law and the Sabbath>> can and regularly and grossly is <<overstated>>, it at the same time can and regularly and grossly is understated.

Like here : <<the Sabbath contains .... His office, creator>>, while the Sabbath Law contains God's <office> of SAVIOUR in the last analysis without his <office> of <<Creator>> Deuteronomy 5.
Incidentally, where God's <<territory>> was more than heaven and earth, but in the depths of the sea and out of the land and kingdom of Darkness.

So that the likelihood The Sabbath might be <<the seal of God>> is both reduced and increased. I would be wary of equations.

No, to be frank, I will not think above what is written; and it is NOT written that the Sabbath and or its Law is the seal of God. Actually it is CONTRARY what really is written, namely, that the Holy Spirit seals the works of God and nothing man might do.


PS

The Sabbath is said to be a or the sign that God sanctifies his people. Though it is sometimes so that his people think their holy Sabbath keeping is the seal of God,  it is the Sabbath that is the seal -- or no longer is the seal -- that it is God who sanctifies them --- or does not sanctify them vis-à-vis they're so holy they are much too holy. 

[johnm]

<<<Quote from: johnm on February 05, 2014, 02:16:29 AM

The importance of the Law and the Sabbath to the New Covenant cannot be overstated. The fourth commandment contains the seal of God;
It contains His Name, Jehovah thy God
His office, creator,
His territory, heaven and earth.

<<The importance of the Law and the Sabbath>> can and regularly and grossly is <<overstated>>.

God is His Name.

His Name is God.

Yes, the Sabbath Commandment does <<contain His Name, Jehovah thy God>>. That does not make them the same, whereas God's Name and God are "ONE" and the same.  "The LORD IS ONE."

While <<the importance of the Law and the Sabbath>> can and regularly and grossly is <<overstated>>, it at the same time can and regularly and grossly is understated.

Like here : <<the Sabbath contains .... His office, creator>>, while the Sabbath Law contains God's <office> of SAVIOUR in the last analysis without his <office> of <<Creator>> Deuteronomy 5.
Incidentally, where God's <<territory>> was more than heaven and earth, but in the depths of the sea and out of the land and kingdom of Darkness.

So that the likelihood The Sabbath might be <<the seal of God>> is both reduced and increased. I would be wary of equations.

No, to be frank, I will not think above what is written; and it is NOT written that the Sabbath and or its Law is the seal of God. Actually it is CONTRARY what really is written, namely, that the Holy Spirit seals the works of God and nothing man might do.


PS

The Sabbath is said to be a or the sign that God sanctifies his people. Though it is sometimes so that his people think their holy Sabbath keeping is the seal of God,  it is the Sabbath that is the seal -- or no longer is the seal -- that it is God who sanctifies them --- or does not sanctify them vis-à-vis they're so holy they are much too holy.  >>>

I never said the Sabbath was the seal of God; the Sabbath is the day of rest for Jehovah and for those who belong to His family, made Holy and sanctified. The fourth commandment is instruction regarding the Sabbath which coincidentally contains the three essential components of a seal for everyone to see.

The Ten Commandments are what is sealed in the mind, in the heart and on the forehead, promised in Jeremiah and Hebrews and fulfilled in Revelation; or to be more precise the perfect understanding of and love of the Law will be in the minds of the saved.

You claim to be a Calvinist; I'm not exactly sure what that is; you behave like a Dispensationalist who speaks a different language to me; you treat the scriptures with a strange form of legalism instead of as the bread of life; how legalistic can bread be? The Holy Spirit provides wisdom and understanding; legalism removes the Holy Spirit from the process.

Jesus Christ was the Law incarnate, now He is the Law immortal; more importantly Jesus as the Law is the stumbling block for Israel and anyone seeking salvation. You believe the Law was abrogated at the cross, but there is not Biblical justification for this idea, only doctrines of men. You are stumbling at the Law and time is running out.

The word God is a general purpose word relating to status and not identity; it is not a name; when Christians say God there is an assumption they are talking about the God of the Bible but God is a valid title for Caesar or Allah and the priesthood who claimed to be so many Gods is grammatically and technically correct unless by God it is assumed Jehovah or Christ, then claim becomes blasphemy. 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Bible 'vernacular' is Christian 'vernacular'.  If the Bible says God is God, God is God.

Where are we going to end up if Christians don't have their own 'colloquial'? Every Christian will have become a caesar worshipper.

Too often knowledge brings on madness.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

esus Christ was the Law incarnate, now He is the Law immortal; more importantly Jesus as the Law is the stumbling block for Israel and anyone seeking salvation. You believe the Law was abrogated at the cross, but there is not Biblical justification for this idea, only doctrines of men. You are stumbling at the Law and time is running out.

Now that is my 'idiom'!

Up until where you lost me.

This is truth:
<<Jesus Christ was the Law incarnate, now He is the Law immortal; more importantly Jesus as the Law is the stumbling block for Israel and anyone seeking salvation....">>

This is truth and contradiction mixed:
<<You believe the Law was abrogated at the cross, but there is not Biblical justification for this idea, only doctrines of men. You are stumbling at the Law and time is running out.>>

The Law was abrogated ON the cross : there He hung : Jesus Christ the Word of God the Law of God. DEAD. The Law of God : dead.

There is the Biblical proof.
Justification for this Truth never was. 
One MUST stumble at THIS Law. In fact "LIFTED UP" HE DRAWS ALL MEN UNTO HIM.
Israel must look up to Him whom they pierced and live ---or die. IF YOU DO NOT SEE THE LAW OF GOD CRUCIFIED NAILED TO THE CROSS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY THOU SHALT DIE.

[Amo]

esus Christ was the Law incarnate, now He is the Law immortal; more importantly Jesus as the Law is the stumbling block for Israel and anyone seeking salvation. You believe the Law was abrogated at the cross, but there is not Biblical justification for this idea, only doctrines of men. You are stumbling at the Law and time is running out.

Now that is my 'idiom'!

Up until where you lost me.

This is truth:
<<Jesus Christ was the Law incarnate, now He is the Law immortal; more importantly Jesus as the Law is the stumbling block for Israel and anyone seeking salvation....">>

This is truth and contradiction mixed:
<<You believe the Law was abrogated at the cross, but there is not Biblical justification for this idea, only doctrines of men. You are stumbling at the Law and time is running out.>>

The Law was abrogated ON the cross : there He hung : Jesus Christ the Word of God the Law of God. DEAD. The Law of God : dead.

There is the Biblical proof.
Justification for this Truth never was. 
One MUST stumble at THIS Law. In fact "LIFTED UP" HE DRAWS ALL MEN UNTO HIM.
Israel must look up to Him whom they pierced and live ---or die. IF YOU DO NOT SEE THE LAW OF GOD CRUCIFIED NAILED TO THE CROSS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY THOU SHALT DIE.

You are confounding the law itself, with the condemnation of the law upon law breakers. It was the condemnation of the law that was crucified on the cross, not the law of God itself, which is held up as the standard from one end of scripture to the other. The law was not crucified, Jesus Christ was. Now by faith, all who wish to do so may enter into His death with Him, thus satisfying and abrogating the demands of the law. The authority of God's law remains, it is the condemnation that has been removed for those who enter into the covenant of Christ.

Rom 6:¶  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that  7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 2:19  For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 10:1 ¶  Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 12:1 ¶  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Only those who have entered into Christ's death by faith, can or will have Christ's life within them. The first is our justification which removes the condemnation of the law upon us, which demands our death, which we happily enter into following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The second is our sanctification, which is by the righteousness of God through His Son, not our own by outward observance of the law. Christ is the only one who ever perfectly kept the law of God, and the only one of this earth who ever will, this side of heaven. If He is in you through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, then the righteousness of the law is fulfilled within the believer.

Those who are in Christ by faith, are justified. Those who have Christ within by faith, are sanctified. You cannot have one without the other. Though one must be in Christ by faith, before Christ can be in one. None of this abrogates or removes the authority of God's law, but rather establishes the same. It is all necessary to our salvation, because the law could not be done away with or changed.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

You are confounding the law itself, with the condemnation of the law upon law breakers.

"He was made SIN for us."

"The STRENGTH of sin is the Law."
"Ye shall not eat lest ye die."

WHO, <<CONDEMNED>>? 

Isaiah 53

"Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows ... He was wounded for our transgression, bruised for our iniquities ... for the transgression of my people was He stricken."

[Amo]

You are confounding the law itself, with the condemnation of the law upon law breakers.

"He was made SIN for us."

"The STRENGTH of sin is the Law."
"Ye shall not eat lest ye die."

WHO, <<CONDEMNED>>? 

Isaiah 53

"Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows ... He was wounded for our transgression, bruised for our iniquities ... for the transgression of my people was He stricken."

Not exactly sure what your point is above. Perhaps you could expound.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 ¶  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 12 ¶  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14  And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The law was made for us. We are not righteous. It's condemnation leads one to Christ. Those who do not acknowledge it's authority, need not acknowledge Christ, for He came to redeem them from the condemnation of the same. Denying the law of God's authority, is to deny all Christ has done for humanity also. Rejecting the authority of God's law, culminates in rejecting Christ Himself.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The law was made for us. We are not righteous. It's condemnation leads one to Christ. Those who do not acknowledge it's authority, need not acknowledge Christ, for He came to redeem them from the condemnation of the same. Denying the law of God's authority, is to deny all Christ has done for humanity also. Rejecting the authority of God's law, culminates in rejecting Christ Himself.

<<The law was made for us.>>
---- "Christ was made sin for us."

<<We are not righteous.>>
---- "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

<<It's [the law's] condemnation leads one to Christ.>>
---- "If I be lifted up I shall draw all men unto Me."

<<Those who do not acknowledge it's [the law's] authority, need not acknowledge Christ>>
---- "Strong is the LORD that judgeth."
"There is one that seeketh and judgeth—if a man keepeth MY SAYING."
"He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not my words hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, the same shall judge him in the last day."

<<for He came to redeem them from the condemnation of the same [law].>>
---- "For judgment I am come into this world, that they that see [<acknowledge>] not, might see [<acknowledge>]; and that they which see [<acknowledge>] might be made blind."

<<Denying the law of God's authority, is to deny all Christ has done for humanity also.>>
---- Denying the authority of Christ, is to deny his words which He received from the Father and also all He has done for humanity.

<<Rejecting the authority of God's law, culminates in rejecting Christ Himself.>>
---- Rejecting the authority of God's Son, culminates in rejecting the Father' authority.

For Sabbatharians to reject the sole Lordship and authority of the Son of Man over the Sabbath in favour of the authority of the Law over the Sabbath, usually ends up in rejecting the Sabbath altogether; and every time in rejecting the Sabbath for the only reason for its being and observance, namely therein, that "JESUS GAVE THEM REST having entered into his own Rest as God in his own" : "on the Sabbath in day's fullness" of fulfilment in "Christ the all in all fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD."

This is the Law of the Sabbath I believe and put my trust in; not the Law engraved in stone.

[johnm]

<<The Law was abrogated ON the cross : there He hung : Jesus Christ the Word of God the Law of God. DEAD. The Law of God : dead.

There is the Biblical proof.
Justification for this Truth never was. 
One MUST stumble at THIS Law. In fact "LIFTED UP" HE DRAWS ALL MEN UNTO HIM.
Israel must look up to Him whom they pierced and live ---or die. IF YOU DO NOT SEE THE LAW OF GOD CRUCIFIED NAILED TO THE CROSS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY THOU SHALT DIE.>>

The Law does snare them who keep the Law without entering into the covenant; that is they keep the Law while excluding God from the process. The penalty of sin is death; the covenant, the shedding of blood for the remission of sin, removes the personal death penalty, not the covenant.

The Law is not abrogated on the cross. Jesus Christ and the Law are one and have always been one; they cannot be divided. Unless Christ and the Law as one were resurrected then only part of Christ was resurrected; you want to slice Christ in half and through half away, why? If you reject half of Christ, you reject whole; you redefine Him as having no power to judge and His new name is, "Truck load of grace."

[Amo]

The law was made for us. We are not righteous. It's condemnation leads one to Christ. Those who do not acknowledge it's authority, need not acknowledge Christ, for He came to redeem them from the condemnation of the same. Denying the law of God's authority, is to deny all Christ has done for humanity also. Rejecting the authority of God's law, culminates in rejecting Christ Himself.

<<The law was made for us.>>
---- "Christ was made sin for us."

<<We are not righteous.>>
---- "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

<<It's [the law's] condemnation leads one to Christ.>>
---- "If I be lifted up I shall draw all men unto Me."

<<Those who do not acknowledge it's [the law's] authority, need not acknowledge Christ>>
---- "Strong is the LORD that judgeth."
"There is one that seeketh and judgeth—if a man keepeth MY SAYING."
"He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not my words hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, the same shall judge him in the last day."

<<for He came to redeem them from the condemnation of the same [law].>>
---- "For judgment I am come into this world, that they that see [<acknowledge>] not, might see [<acknowledge>]; and that they which see [<acknowledge>] might be made blind."

<<Denying the law of God's authority, is to deny all Christ has done for humanity also.>>
---- Denying the authority of Christ, is to deny his words which He received from the Father and also all He has done for humanity.

<<Rejecting the authority of God's law, culminates in rejecting Christ Himself.>>
---- Rejecting the authority of God's Son, culminates in rejecting the Father' authority.

For Sabbatharians to reject the sole Lordship and authority of the Son of Man over the Sabbath in favour of the authority of the Law over the Sabbath, usually ends up in rejecting the Sabbath altogether; and every time in rejecting the Sabbath for the only reason for its being and observance, namely therein, that "JESUS GAVE THEM REST having entered into his own Rest as God in his own" : "on the Sabbath in day's fullness" of fulfilment in "Christ the all in all fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD."

This is the Law of the Sabbath I believe and put my trust in; not the Law engraved in stone.

One scripture does not negate another. Jesus is the author of the law of God, or do you not understand that Christ always was, is, and always will be God. He chose to become one of us for our salvation. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because He is God, and the fourth commandment is part of His law. Perhaps you do not properly understand just exactly who Christ is.

Exo 3:13  And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Joh 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

It was Christ who spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

Joh 1:1 ¶  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2  The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......................................
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It was Christ with the Father who created the world and established the seventh day Sabbath at creation. Of course He is Lord of the Sabbath. He did not come to abolish any of His commandments, but rather to establish them all. This is His testimony regarding the same.

Mt 5:17 ¶  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You cannot repute the above words of God, try as you may.