Re: Nudity?

[DaveW]

A word of godly advice to our dear sisters:  you should never cease from laboring to seduce your husbands, he most likely will reward you greatly. If that means walking naked in your house, then go for it.

That sounds so much like the 1970s cult group called "Children of God" led by a guy who called himself Moses David.

They 'prophecied' that the whole world was going to be be destroyed by the Kohoutek comet. (~ jan 1 1974).  The whole planet was supposed to be blown away but if you went to Australia you might survive.  I think there are still a few of them in Australia. 

My brother in law was in that group that did not go down under. He joined our church instead.  But his descriptions of their houses was pretty bizzare.  4-5 married couples in a house and the wives are supposed to be seducing their husbands constantly - right in front of every one else including visitors and young children. 

And don't even get me started on their "evangelical outreach" program ....

Wives should not need to 'seduce' their husbands.

[Red Baker]

A word of godly advice to our dear sisters:  you should never cease from laboring to seduce your husbands, he most likely will reward you greatly. If that means walking naked in your house, then go for it.

That sounds so much like the 1970s cult group called "Children of God" led by a guy who called himself Moses David.

They 'prophecied' that the whole world was going to be be destroyed by the Kohoutek comet. (~ jan 1 1974).  The whole planet was supposed to be blown away but if you went to Australia you might survive.  I think there are still a few of them in Australia. 

My brother in law was in that group that did not go down under. He joined our church instead.  But his descriptions of their houses was pretty bizzare.  4-5 married couples in a house and the wives are supposed to be seducing their husbands constantly - right in front of every one else including visitors and young children. 

And don't even get me started on their "evangelical outreach" program ....

Wives should not need to 'seduce' their husbands.

Dave, you have taken what I said and added to it.  Slow down, please.  Dave, did I even hint that our wives should seduce their husbands: " right in front of every one else including visitors and young children."  No, I did not, and if you read my post carefully, which you obliviously did not, then you would not had said that my post sounded like a cult group leader.    

Sir, there is absolutely nothing wrong with godly women seducing their husbands, as a matter of truth, most have done in many ways, with words and the way they dress.  Why do women buy certain type of "bed room" clothes?  To look pretty and seducing for the bed bugs?  Let me take it a step farther.  Why do women dress, put on make up and make sure that they are attractive to look at?  Do they just do it for themselves?  No way.  Do they do it for other women to see how attractive they are?  I think not.  Do they do it to show their beauty off, to men and women? Yes.  Let us all be honest.  Within godly limitation, there is nothing wrong with that.  I have been married for 47 seven years to the same godly women, and she has maintain her looks and weight for those forty seven years, for the most part (beauty does indeed fade away over time).  She has been a great example for my daughters to follow.  We do things at our home, that we do not and would do before others, in words and deeds.  Now, you can take that and make it to mean whatever you desire, but please do not add to what I have said, or put a spin on anything.  Again, there is nothing wrong with what husbands and wives do behind close doors, nothing. 

RB

[DaveW]

Sir, there is absolutely nothing wrong with godly women seducing their husbands, as a matter of truth, most have done in many ways, with words and the way they dress. 

I did not say it was wrong to do so - I said it should be unneccessary:

Wives should not need to 'seduce' their husbands.

If the church taught the attitude toward married sex that was taught to the apostles growing up; that would not be an issue at all.

That attitude is this:
Sex is a wife's RIGHT and a husband's OBLIGATION; and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

But telling a wife that she needs to seduce her husband throws this on its head. For that matter, so does a husband demanding her to service him.

Again, there is nothing wrong with what husbands and wives do behind close doors, nothing. 

Never said there was.

[Red Baker]

Sir, there is absolutely nothing wrong with godly women seducing their husbands, as a matter of truth, most have done in many ways, with words and the way they dress. 

I did not say it was wrong to do so - I said it should be unneccessary:

Wives should not need to 'seduce' their husbands.

If the church taught the attitude toward married sex that was taught to the apostles growing up; that would not be an issue at all.

That attitude is this:
Sex is a wife's RIGHT and a husband's OBLIGATION; and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

But telling a wife that she needs to seduce her husband throws this on its head. For that matter, so does a husband demanding her to service him.

Again, there is nothing wrong with what husbands and wives do behind close doors, nothing. 

Never said there was.

I am out of this

[DaveW]

Remember the apostles all grew up in a Jewish society. (so did Our Lord)  The basis is a combination of scripture and rabbinic logic.

The scriptural basis is this:

Ex 21.10 If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.

Right after the 10 commandments; it is describing a female SLAVE. If the man takes another [free] wife, he must still feed her, clothe her and keep her sexually satisfied.

The rabbinic logic extension is this: If God is that interested in the sexual satisfaction of a slave wife, how much more is it important for a FREE wife?   And in typical fashion, they put in place a minimum frequency (listed in the Mishnah and Talmud) based on the husband's occupation.  For the unemployed and independently wealthy it was DAILY.  That was the MINIMUM. For EVERY WIFE.

[chosenone]

Sir, there is absolutely nothing wrong with godly women seducing their husbands, as a matter of truth, most have done in many ways, with words and the way they dress. 

I did not say it was wrong to do so - I said it should be unneccessary:

Wives should not need to 'seduce' their husbands.

If the church taught the attitude toward married sex that was taught to the apostles growing up; that would not be an issue at all.

That attitude is this:
Sex is a wife's RIGHT and a husband's OBLIGATION; and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

But telling a wife that she needs to seduce her husband throws this on its head. For that matter, so does a husband demanding her to service him.

Again, there is nothing wrong with what husbands and wives do behind close doors, nothing. 

Never said there was.

That attitude is this:
Sex is a wife's RIGHT and a husband's OBLIGATION; and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. ~What scripture are you referring to? In a beginning of any marriage, the man has no problem fulfilling what you call: obligation, and most women have a harder time keeping up!  It does change a little as time goes on, but not much.  I have no ideal what you are talking about. 

RB

I think you are generalising  a lot here. I have read many wives on forums complaining that their husband don't often want sex and they do. Most wives are perfectly capable of 'keeping up' with the normal male sex drive, and they often over take men later in life for wanting sex.  I also believe that there are a few specific things that we shouldnt do behind closed doors.

[FireSword]

Remember the apostles all grew up in a Jewish society. (so did Our Lord)  The basis is a combination of scripture and rabbinic logic.

The scriptural basis is this:

Ex 21.10 If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.

Right after the 10 commandments; it is describing a female SLAVE. If the man takes another [free] wife, he must still feed her, clothe her and keep her sexually satisfied.

The rabbinic logic extension is this: If God is that interested in the sexual satisfaction of a slave wife, how much more is it important for a FREE wife?   And in typical fashion, they put in place a minimum frequency (listed in the Mishnah and Talmud) based on the husband's occupation.  For the unemployed and independently wealthy it was DAILY.  That was the MINIMUM. For EVERY WIFE.

Dave you don't half talk nonsense when it comes to sexual issues.

[DaveW]

Dave you don't half talk nonsense when it comes to sexual issues.

Say what? 

I have no clue how to decipher that sentence.  (lost in the 'don't half' phrase)

[JohnDB]

I understand. Some people can't resist talking about sex and make every topic that is begnign surround their favorite subject of sex.

There's one in every crowd.

[JohnDB70X7]

Presuming we are all adults here... children are looking at porn and worse to get their  "thrills" [sadly]... so we should be okay here.

Men must continue to pursue his wife as if she were still on the market.

Bagged and tagged leads to affairs and divorce.

Women must also seduce their husbands.

Otherwise same ends.

There are some who mottle through loveless marriages of friendship and convenience.

But inside most women is the Princess who wants to be pursued and courted by a charming Prince.

And most guys are a little boy inside that discovers there's something other than playing cars under the table of mom's weekly bridge game with the neighborhood moms.

We are sexual creatures. And there's a real sport to making your wife want you like she did that first time.

It is also an intimacy you cannot get with fornication...

[Red Baker]

Presuming we are all adults here... children are looking at porn and worse to get their  "thrills" [sadly]... so we should be okay here.

Men must continue to pursue his wife as if she were still on the market.

Bagged and tagged leads to affairs and divorce.

Women must also seduce their husbands.

Otherwise same ends.

There are some who mottle through loveless marriages of friendship and convenience.

But inside most women is the Princess who wants to be pursued and courted by a charming Prince.

And most guys are a little boy inside that discovers there's something other than playing cars under the table of mom's weekly bridge game with the neighborhood moms.

We are sexual creatures. And there's a real sport to making your wife want you like she did that first time.

It is also an intimacy you cannot get with fornication...

Well said

[chosenone]

Presuming we are all adults here... children are looking at porn and worse to get their  "thrills" [sadly]... so we should be okay here.

Men must continue to pursue his wife as if she were still on the market.

Bagged and tagged leads to affairs and divorce.

Women must also seduce their husbands.

Otherwise same ends.

There are some who mottle through loveless marriages of friendship and convenience.

But inside most women is the Princess who wants to be pursued and courted by a charming Prince.

And most guys are a little boy inside that discovers there's something other than playing cars under the table of mom's weekly bridge game with the neighborhood moms.

We are sexual creatures. And there's a real sport to making your wife want you like she did that first time.

It is also an intimacy you cannot get with fornication...

Yes good post. We all want to be wanted and desired.

[DaveW]

And there's a real sport to making your wife want you like she did that first time.

That assumes an awful lot.  What about the girl who has endured endless hours of intimate abuse at the hands (other parts actually) of older siblings or relatives - maybe even dear old dad?  Did she really want that "first time?"  Do you think she will EVER "want" it?

If not as a husband you must respect that.

[Helen]

I'm cracking up.  Sorry, but I am.  I cannot imagine the embarrassment it would cause to guests if I were to try to seduce my husband in front of them!  In addition, we have deaf friends.  You cannot knock at their homes, as they will never hear you, so with the ones who are close friends, you just walk on it.  They do the same here.  We are ALWAYS dressed!  One way or another, we have on some sort of clothes when we are up! 

As far as seduction goes, oh well -- I'm 65 and he's 71 and we are what we are and happy with it.  He puts a rose from the garden by my computer almost daily and I cook his favorite meals and give him backrubs.  He picks up a pizza if I'm too tired to cook and I filter all the emails that come into our website so he doesn't have to deal with the junk ones.  We're a team.  Each couple is their own entity and what works for one couple will not always work for another. 

DaveW -- a lady who had gone through past abuse can be healed.  It takes time, love, understanding and enormous patience.  But it is possible.

[DaveW]

DaveW -- a lady who had gone through past abuse can be healed.  It takes time, love, understanding and enormous patience.  But it is possible.

"Can be" - in most cases yes.

But that has to be her choice and not some frustrated husband's choice.

And if she decides the process is just too painful .....

[chosenone]

DaveW -- a lady who had gone through past abuse can be healed.  It takes time, love, understanding and enormous patience.  But it is possible.

"Can be" - in most cases yes.

But that has to be her choice and not some frustrated husband's choice.

And if she decides the process is just too painful .....

It takes courage yes, but I do know several who have been abused, some in my own family, and they are now enjoying a good and happy life. Who would want to stay in that 'half life' when you don't have to?

[Helen]

She needs counseling.  As someone who has been through a lot of pain in her life I can say with confidence "pain is only pain."  I know that sounds funny, but that's how you get to feel about it.  There is still a life to be lived and the pain is something you can work through.  Some people get used to being victims and that becomes a lifestyle.  That takes a lot of counseling and prayer to turn around.

[DaveW]

Helen, you are a few years older than I am so if you were raised in the church (esp the Wesleyan holiness branch) you know the attitude toward ANYTHING sexual. It was looked at as more sinful than becoming a serial killer. (one guy from my wife's home church actually did -  his first victim was his fiancee)

Being raised in that mentality, there is no reason on earth to go thru the work to fix something like that.

[chosenone]

She needs counseling.  As someone who has been through a lot of pain in her life I can say with confidence "pain is only pain."  I know that sounds funny, but that's how you get to feel about it.  There is still a life to be lived and the pain is something you can work through.  Some people get used to being victims and that becomes a lifestyle.  That takes a lot of counseling and prayer to turn around.

In my experience, some do it through counselling and/or prayer, and others seem to be able to do it through their own determination not to let what this person did ruin any more of their life, and their determination not to be a victim. I have seen both. I have seen someone who has suffered much less being a perpetual victim and having to see one counsellor after another, while another who has suffered more has pushed her way through, forgiven, gritted her teeth and got on with life, spending a lot of time helping others. Sometimes healing comes as we move on and take on life's challenges, rather than when we sit back, do nothing, spend ages looking inside ourselves, and seek others to help us.

Forgiveness of the one who abused is however absolutely vital, and opens the door to healing and a new beginning. Without that forgiveness, there will never be healing or freedom. It has to be the first step. I have heard this said by two people I know well who were both sexually abused for many years by a close family member. They are amazing people, both living fulfilling productive lives, and following God.

[Helen]

Dave, thank you for the response.  The idea that sex is, in and of itself, inherently sinful is to call God an encourager of sin, isn't it?  That is so sad that some are brought up believing that. 

Chosenone, I totally agree with you.  I worked in a hospital when I was younger -- a long term hospital, not one with emergency care and a surgical suite.  I remember one year when two boys, approximately the same age (high school) came in.  One with cancer of the spine, which is unbelievable painful, and the other with cancer of the liver which is not nearly as bad in terms of pain.  The former young man remained involved with his high school, cheerful, rarely complained, and was a pleasure to work with.  The one with the less pain was a pain to all of us -- constantly complaining, demanding, saying his pain was more than he could bear.  What a difference a person's character makes! 

And you are absolutely right about forgiveness.