More truth

[mclees8]

The Scripture is true:  if you want to find the truth, you go to the church.

mike
If you want to see it that way but I don't. We may not ever in this life have all the truth but we will have it if we are faithful to the end. If we have Christ we already have all the truth because He is the truth but we lack all the truth until we experience the heavenly. It is of the scientific minds that everything is reduced to numbers and mathematical equations. Is God a mathematical equation? Is he just another number in the universe? If this is true then we may never find completeness.
It is sad the concept of how we see the church. How it has become the establishment rather than the People of God. In this the establishment becomes an idle where it becomes Christ for us. This is no more visible than in the RCC. It is expressed in your comment about Paul. It is as you say just listen to the order and you will be saved. I do not believe Paul ever would see it that way. He said follow me only as I follow Christ. Paul would never ware cloths of monarchs and sit on a throne being adored of men.  If we believe that the written word is Gods word for his church then it is not tainted by the ideals of men but pure being without error. So then God word is an anchor for us or as a measure to keep us on the true path. But even then we still make it fit our mold. We go with the flow of things.
You said the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and that it is for it is built upon our faith in Christ. The leadership is but a part of the truth that we all stand on. Yes the leadership has charge to teach the word but with out the Lords Holy Spirit upon the teacher he will surely teach error. If you see the church as the magisterial order then who is the congregation? Are we not all pillars of that same truth. Does not Jesus know the tares from the wheat. Today the church is an office of authority where by he must ware the robes of that authority, but what robes did Peter ware? What robes did any of the apostles ware. In the Old Testament two ot he most powerful prophets Elijah, and John the Baptist, What did they ware. No we don't go around in camel hair.
Listen I am not prejudice. I am neither Catholic or Protestant. Yet over thirty five years Born again and I love the Lord and he is with me always. He shows me His church today under the Christian umbrella. There is confusion everywhere and not one denomination is a favorite. No not even the mighty RCC Vatican city. What did Steven say, The earth is the Lords footstool, What building shall you make for Him. If God the Father sits on high then who is a man who lets men bow at his feet and kiss his ring and call him Holy Father. No not even Peter. And who are Protestants who make up every kind of doctrine and attract the elite to fund their Grand churches as like big business. Who are flattered at Charismatic speakers who attend their prestigious events.
And then there is the worldliness and looking to government for the answers to world problems. There is the counsel of the worlds leaders. Popes who go to the UN who look to the way of antichrist. I recently was in Ashville NC and while there I visited the Billy Graham training center. Oh what a grand place it is. You would have break your bank account to attend  their seminars.  I am saddened because I love Billy. He was instrumental in my salvation, yet even on this very forum we see his add. " there is hope for America. We don't save regions so what is hope for America. If nations would all together as people turn to Christ then whole nations could be saved. Is there hope for the world under sin. Will the world say yes to Christ? If this were true then there would be no place for the judgment which is surely to come. There would be no place for the Lord to separate the sheep from the goats, So what is hope for America. I tell you the church is losing its sight and its teachers have no knowledge of the truth. We are saving souls not Nations no not the world or anything of it. Jesus said in His prayer for the Disciples " I pray for them, I pray not for the world." John 17:9  So if you say I anti establishment it is that and much more.  I know that I am not alone but many are seeing the same as me.
Please do not get me wrong. I am not trying to say there is no good in the established church, but we must focus on Christ more the establishment if we want the truth.

[Catholica]

The Scripture is true:  if you want to find the truth, you go to the church.

Amen!

Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

The supernatural sense of faith

91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54

92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55

93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56

53 Cf. 1 Jn 2:20,27.
54 Cf. Jn 16:13.
55 LG 12; cf. St. Augustine, De praed. sanct. 14,27:PL 44,980.
56 LG 12; cf. Jude 3.

We do not see the church as just the magisterial order either.  Rather, it is your false perception that we do.  We have a term for that: purple ecclesiology.  It's a convenient strawman for people who seek to say the Catholic Church is in error. Catholics who actually understand the Catholic faith know that such "purple ecclesiology" is a heresy.

For the church to be the "pillar and foundation of truth" would entail that the church all believes the same thing, not contradictory things.  Logically there is no other way.  So what Paul meant by that statement was that those people who were one in mind with the apostles were the church.  That is why Paul had the audacity to write letters to all these different churches and expect people to believe him.  The Church had one teaching, a centralized teaching authority, and the faithful were called to accept it with joy.

You might argue that that church was not the Catholic Church, and that is up to you.  But you have to see that whatever church that was, it is very unlike what most consider "Christianity today".  And it certainly wasn't an invisible teaching authority based on written documents alone.

[mclees8]

The Scripture is true:  if you want to find the truth, you go to the church.

Amen!

Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

The supernatural sense of faith

91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54

92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55

93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56

53 Cf. 1 Jn 2:20,27.
54 Cf. Jn 16:13.
55 LG 12; cf. St. Augustine, De praed. sanct. 14,27:PL 44,980.
56 LG 12; cf. Jude 3.

We do not see the church as just the magisterial order either.  Rather, it is your false perception that we do.  We have a term for that: purple ecclesiology.  It's a convenient strawman for people who seek to say the Catholic Church is in error. Catholics who actually understand the Catholic faith know that such "purple ecclesiology" is a heresy.

For the church to be the "pillar and foundation of truth" would entail that the church all believes the same thing, not contradictory things.  Logically there is no other way.  So what Paul meant by that statement was that those people who were one in mind with the apostles were the church.  That is why Paul had the audacity to write letters to all these different churches and expect people to believe him.  The Church had one teaching, a centralized teaching authority, and the faithful were called to accept it with joy.

You might argue that that church was not the Catholic Church, and that is up to you.  But you have to see that whatever church that was, it is very unlike what most consider "Christianity today".  And it certainly wasn't an invisible teaching authority based on written documents alone.

#1. Purple ecclesiology – This is the notion that the "main actors in the Catholic drama are the clergy, especially the bishops. Opinions from the laity? Nah.  Their opinions are nice, especially if they're mad at the Church about some "official" church pronouncement or decision about which they disagree. But otherwise, for an "official" comment? Gotta have a collar in the picture frame.

#2. The Catholic Church is in Decline – Oh yeah? You might need to lengthen you camera lens a bit or do some homework.  Sure, that might be the case in the "West" (USA, Canada, Western  Europe). In fact one University of Pennsylvania professor I know said that "ex- or fallen-away or non-practicing Catholics represent one of the biggest – if not the biggest, voting bloc in the United States today."  John Allen says,

I decided to look up this purple thing to get a handle on what you are talking about.  The priest was addressing myths about the church. But the problem is how people view the church and the position it projects that these myths arise. Actually the problem is much bigger than that. You are right that I won,t see the RCC as   "thee"  Church. The purple thing is really lower level and it comes from a lack of knowing who the church is and its purpose by the laity and general public at large.

While reading I got the distinct idea that the RCC is often seen as representative of Christianity. He said that one myth was that the church was on the decline being expressed by ex Catholics who have become disenchanted by the church. The priest states this is wrong that really the church is on the rise.

Who are these unfortunates looking to as the church. Who des the general public see as the church. Is it no the authority system? You presented statements from your Catechism about the beliefs of the church (RCC) We could get into a whole subject about that alone. But what you are trying to say is that Catholics don't see the church as the magisterial order and that your Catechism proves it.

The problem here is that most in and out of the "Thee church" don't see that in projection.  Why not?

One projection is that the laity and public see the church as it has always projected itself from the authority system that they represent God upon the earth and therefore are the force for the moral good. The little people have little to say about what the hierarchy does on the world scale.

Secondly is the exalting of the clergy. Especially the popes and the cardinals. The Vatican being made its own country. The Grand Vatican city itself, the grand robes of their position and office, and the pope sitting on a royal throne being adored as Holy Father and your Eminence. And you tell me why people see this order projecting loud and clear that they are the church. Tell me if you were to go on the street and ask Catholics what pops first into their mind when you say the church. Who is the church to them? You know that might be interesting.

Oh yes I did notice the sweeping power of making doctrine and calling it Gods authority that the magisterial gives itself in you Catechism also.

[trifecta]

Mclees,

I appreciate your respectful nature of this post.

Lots here, and sincere.   I can only respond to some of it.

The Scripture is true:  if you want to find the truth, you go to the church.

mike

Who's mike? 

It is sad the concept of how we see the church. How it has become the establishment rather than the People of God.

The church was never just the people of God.  The Bible says much about the church. People of God are a another thing.
At a minimum, the church is the people gathered.  But one of its roles is judgment (which is related to truth).  (Matt 18:17).

In this the establishment becomes an idle where it becomes Christ for us.

I think I get your point.  The church can be an idol.  While that may be true, *anything* can be an idol if it takes one away from God.
Where are the verses that warn about the church being an idol?   

This is no more visible than in the RCC. It is expressed in your comment about Paul.

Firstly, I'm not RCC, but Orthodox.  (I'm not offended; after all, this is the Catholic Forum).  Secondly,  I was simply paraphrasing
Paul.  He said the church is the pillar of the truth.  Therefore, if you want to know the truth, as I said, you go to the church.
Simple and based on Paul's own words.

It is as you say just listen to the order and you will be saved. I do not believe Paul ever would see it that way. He said follow me only as I follow Christ.

Paul's letter say listen to me.  He wants his audience to do as he says.  He even says:
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle."  (2Thes 2:15)

Paul would never ware cloths of monarchs and sit on a throne being adored of men.

Let's get this clothes stuff straight.  Firstly, I wouldn't get too hung up on it.  I can appreciate the different styles that
various clergy wear.  Ultimately, you can't wear two things at once.  So, you just have to understand the reasons we do it,
and hopefully, at least appreciate it.
   The RCC and us have similar clothing.  We in our services, are linking the heavenly world to the
earthly one.  The fancy clothes reflect God (and Christ) in glory.  We are reminded of the heavenly every service.
Note that the fancy clothes are worn *in liturgy.*  What do priests wear outside of liturgy? Simple black.  It shows simplicity
and at the same time, recognition. 

So then God word is an anchor for us or as a measure to keep us on the true path. But even then we still make it fit our mold. We go with the flow of things.

That's why we need the church. It ensures we don't get carried away with our "private interpretations"

You said the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and that it is for it is built upon our faith in Christ.

That is not what Paul said.  The church is the true because of us???  No, the church has the truth because Jesus is heading it
and he is building it (Matt16:18).   The church has knocked down heresies that we don't have to think about anymore.
On the other hand, in Protestantism, you have some issues reoccuring (e.g., Trinity-true or not; baptism--how to).  Why?
you don't have a way of resolving issues.  We do.

In my opinion, Protestantism is too dependent on whoever leads them.  His opinion rules the day.  We don't have that
problem in my church--for lots of reasons, one of which it is that we respect the history of the church.  Most (but not all) issues
we deal with today have been dealt with--and resolved-- in the past.  This is why we have the truth; it's not that our leaders
are wonderful--which, frankly, under our system they don't have to be.  We follow the traditions of the church which go all the
way back to the Apostles.

The leadership is but a part of the truth that we all stand on. Yes the leadership has charge to teach the word but with out the Lords Holy Spirit upon the teacher he will surely teach error.

Amen.  This is why Protestant churches are a crapshoot.  Too much power is placed in the leader.    You may think, doesn't the Pope have such power?  You would be right, the Pope can really change everything of he wants.  (In Orthodoxy, we don't have a Pope).  But the Pope must answer to the historical traditions of the church.   He probably can't get away changing too much at one time.
Protestant leaders, on the other hand, are only beholden to their personal revelation from God.

If you see the church as the magisterial order then who is the congregation? Are we not all pillars of that same truth.

In a word, no.  In fact, the parable of the wheat and tares shows that not everyone in the church is really approved of in God's eyes.
You are trying to say  people are in the church and the church is the truth, therefore the people are the truth.  But that's not what the parable (and experience) says.   

Listen I am not prejudice. I am neither Catholic or Protestant.

Actually, you are Protestant.  Sola scriptura is unique to Protestantism.  (Orthodox, by the way, are neither Catholic or Protestant, although we are closer to Catholic.  To understand why, we need to look at church history.  But I won't bore you with that (today, at least  )

Yet over thirty five years Born again and I love the Lord and he is with me always. He shows me His church today under the Christian umbrella. There is confusion everywhere and not one denomination is a favorite. No not even the mighty RCC Vatican city.

Another Protestant thought.  Of course, one church is preferred to the others.  Jesus said upon this rock, I will build my church, not churches.   The nature of truth is narrow, as well.  With truth, there is only one right answer, but many wrong answers.  Truth is a binary concept. By the way,  Vatican City isn't that mighty.  It's a tiny piece of land that Mussolini approved of as a compromise with the church.  (Mussolini wasn't a believer of any type)

Please do not get me wrong. I am not trying to say there is no good in the established church, but we must focus on Christ more the establishment if we want the truth.[/color]

Again, as Paul says, we must go to the church for the truth because the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.  Not to mention that Christ is the church's head.    The church is an establishment but much more than that.   It has separated the truth from the lies.