An agnostic atheist on a Christian forum, is the world ending?

[FireSword]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

That must be tough, but God is not superman and does not claim to be the way we would like him to be. For one God only responds to prayers and it takes a lot of prayer for heaven to interfere in the affairs of man. If all families prayed regularly then there would be far more miracles, but because most families do not, then they by their own actions for whatever reason including unbelief do not desire heaven to interact in their lives, therefore live a very human existence. The good news however is that God can get involved in your life and family after this tragedy and live the way he would have you live.

[chosenone]

There are other, more well thought out reasons for not believing in god than simply losing a friend in a tragedy. If there is a higher being, a god or gods, I need something tangible to believe that it is the Christian god. For all I know, Allah is the true god (and if he is, he is the biggest hypocritical god I've ever seen in religion). But I don't believe in god for other reasons. He is defined as perfect,'something that cannot be added or detracted from. And he is said to be always perfect. So if nothing could be added or detracted from his existence, how can he create earth and humans and the universe with all in it. It's like having 5 sides on a square. So how is god possibly a perfect being?

Many have known real pain. I told you about a girl I know who was terribly abused all of her childhood and yet she loves God despite this, and never once blamed God for not doing anything to stop it.

As I already asked you, what would you have wanted God to do bearing in mind that we all have free will?

[A man with questions]

You completely missed my point. Perfect things cannot create c
Because there is nothing to add to a perfect existence. It is not a question of free will.

[Catholica]

There are other, more well thought out reasons for not believing in god than simply losing a friend in a tragedy. If there is a higher being, a god or gods, I need something tangible to believe that it is the Christian god. For all I know, Allah is the true god (and if he is, he is the biggest hypocritical god I've ever seen in religion).

There is the "problem", then, of Jesus, who walked on Earth with us.  We have Jesus' own words, as well as his resurrection, to believe that Jesus is God.  And we have the witnesses of the early Church who testified to this with their lives. 

It is a well-worn statement that Jesus doesn't leave us many options.  Just by his teachings we know that either Jesus is God, or is a liar, or a madman.  But through reason we can rule out liar and madman.

Jesus doesn't allow us to argue about needing something tangible, because He became tangible.  And Christianity is the only religion that believes that God became tangible.

Another podcast that might help you that helps demonstrate the way God became tangible and how we know that He is God.

http://wordonfire.org/WOF-Radio/Sermons/2009/Sermon-431---Easter-Sunday---The-Resurrection-of-J.aspx

But I don't believe in god for other reasons. He is defined as perfect,'something that cannot be added or detracted from. And he is said to be always perfect. So if nothing could be added or detracted from his existence, how can he create earth and humans and the universe with all in it. It's like having 5 sides on a square. So how is god possibly a perfect being?

What do you mean by "nothing could be added or detracted from his existence"?  On one hand you have God, and on the other hand you have his creation.  They are not one and the same.  Some religions believe that creation IS God.  Your argument seems to debunk that, but that is not what most religions believe about God.  Christianity believes that creation is not God.  Being perfect doesn't mean that He is "all that exists".

[DaveW]

You completely missed my point. Perfect things cannot create c
Because there is nothing to add to a perfect existence. It is not a question of free will.

I believe you (and whomever you got it from) to have an imperfect understanding of "perfect."

In the Bible it primarily means "mature."

The bible does not deal in abstract notions like your use of "perfect."

[A man with questions]

Mark 10: 18 implies perfection. Definition of perfection: having all of the desired elements, unable to improve or add to. God could not add to what cannot be added to. Is it really that hard to understand? When something is perfect, nothing can be added. So what made god add an earth to his already in-addable existence? Luke 18: 19-21. Psalm 16: 2

[chosenone]

You completely missed my point. Perfect things cannot create c
Because there is nothing to add to a perfect existence. It is not a question of free will.

Yes it is. Would you like God to force you to do what HE wants or would you like to make you own mind up what you do and how you live?

[chosenone]

Mark 10: 18 implies perfection. Definition of perfection: having all of the desired elements, unable to improve or add to. God could not add to what cannot be added to. Is it really that hard to understand? When something is perfect, nothing can be added. So what made god add an earth to his already in-addable existence? Luke 18: 19-21. Psalm 16: 2

  So if I had a baby who I considered to be perfect, you are saying that I wouldn't want any more because I have already created perfection?

I think you will find many of your answers if you read the Bible.
God loves to create, and His creation is awesome and magnificent. Who are we to question  why God creates what He does, I think that is up to Him.

[FireSword]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

What would you suggest that God had done, being that he has given us all free will to act badly if we choose?

You predicted his age of 14, before he told us, do you have the gift?

[chosenone]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

What would you suggest that God had done, being that he has given us all free will to act badly if we choose?

You predicted his age of 14, before he told us, do you have the gift?

  LOL No he said it on the introduction thread.

[A man with questions]

IBM, no. People apply the word perfect to a lot of things. But humans are so far from perfect its not even funny. We, as humans, have a human condition, or as you like to call it: sin. Because we have a human condition.", we cannot understand or comprehend perfection. It goes both ways; perfection cannot understand imperfection and vice versa. Anything that you can call perfect is not truly perfect, just really good and amazing, but not perfect. The word perfect is one of the most complicated words in the English language. To simply apply it to something that is good is not true to its definition.

[Victor08]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

What do your parents think about your atheism, are they atheists too?

[chosenone]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

What do your parents think about your atheism, are they atheists too?

He said they are Christians I think.

[A man with questions]

My parents are not atheists and are in fact Christian. They always tried to get me to read the bible and do all that, but it just didn't make sense to me. My parents do not know that I am an agnostic atheist because if they found out, I would be in more than trouble; I'd be kicked out of the house. I live in a very secular state and inside that state newtown is considered more secular than most other towns. My parents are an exception to newtowns normally nonreligious attitude. All my friends know that I'm an agnostic atheist, in fact, everyone but my family knows. When I get older to be on my own financial power and I don't need to be supported by my parents, I will tell them I'm an agnostic atheist. But only after they have used their money to help further my education and get me to the place I want to be.

[chosenone]

IBM, no. People apply the word perfect to a lot of things. But humans are so far from perfect its not even funny. We, as humans, have a human condition, or as you like to call it: sin. Because we have a human condition.", we cannot understand or comprehend perfection. It goes both ways; perfection cannot understand imperfection and vice versa. Anything that you can call perfect is not truly perfect, just really good and amazing, but not perfect. The word perfect is one of the most complicated words in the English language. To simply apply it to something that is good is not true to its definition.

I think you are trying to see things in a logical way that can only been seen in a spiritual way.

The fact is that bad things either seem to drive people FROM God or TO God, even if they never gave him a thought before that. When I was going through terrible things in my life , Gods presence was all that kept me going. I never blamed Him or wondered why He didn't do anything, because if a person acts badly then that's their choice. We all have a choice to act well or badly.
At this time in History, God has chosen to allow good and bad to exist together. It wont always be that way, but for now bad things will happen because there is a lot of evil in the world. The world we are told is satans, but he doesn't have long.

[DaveW]

Mark 10: 18 implies perfection. Definition of perfection: having all of the desired elements, unable to improve or add to. God could not add to what cannot be added to. Is it really that hard to understand? When something is perfect, nothing can be added. So what made god add an earth to his already in-addable existence? Luke 18: 19-21. Psalm 16: 2

The highlighted illustrates your dilemma.  God is all powerful and can do anything including violating the laws of physics and logic. When you say "God could not ..." you already have a contradiction in terms.

[chosenone]

My parents are not atheists and are in fact Christian. They always tried to get me to read the bible and do all that, but it just didn't make sense to me. My parents do not know that I am an agnostic atheist because if they found out, I would be in more than trouble; I'd be kicked out of the house. I live in a very secular state and inside that state newtown is considered more secular than most other towns. My parents are an exception to newtowns normally nonreligious attitude. All my friends know that I'm an agnostic atheist, in fact, everyone but my family knows. When I get older to be on my own financial power and I don't need to be supported by my parents, I will tell them I'm an agnostic atheist. But only after they have used their money to help further my education and get me to the place I want to be.

That's an incredibly selfish attitude. You will use THEIR money to get YOU where YOU want to be, and when they are of no more use to you, you will abandon them. Sheesh. Talk about disrespectful, selfish behaviour.
I doubt they will throw you out at 14. I think you are being quite melodramatic.

[DaveW]

I think you are trying to see things in a logical way that can only been seen in a spiritual way.

Agreed. 

1 Corinthians 2:14  But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

And for logic, God uses an altogether DIFFERENT set of logic rules.  His are not abstract but relational which means they can be circular and can hold mutually exclusive ideas as both simultaneously true.

[Cally]

There are other, more well thought out reasons for not believing in god than simply losing a friend in a tragedy. If there is a higher being, a god or gods, I need something tangible to believe that it is the Christian god. For all I know, Allah is the true god (and if he is, he is the biggest hypocritical god I've ever seen in religion). But I don't believe in god for other reasons. He is defined as perfect,'something that cannot be added or detracted from. And he is said to be always perfect. So if nothing could be added or detracted from his existence, how can he create earth and humans and the universe with all in it. It's like having 5 sides on a square. So how is god possibly a perfect being?

God created the universe for the same reason that a painter paints: to express himself.

[DaveW]

My parents are not atheists and are in fact Christian. They always tried to get me to read the bible and do all that, but it just didn't make sense to me.

1 Corinthians 2:14  But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


There is much in the bible that can ONLY be understood by divine revelation.

[A man with questions]

Ok then, forget the perfection argument, because I don't think you are getting what I am trying to say. So, if we hold god to the set of our morals of good and forgiving, can we hold him to our same standard of evil? God created lucifer, knowing that he would sin and create evil. Again imperfection cannot come from perfection, but whatever. So god ultimately created lucifer knowing that he was creating evil. So that really means that god created evil (even though that is impossible by the perfection argument) and he makes atheists come into existence who doubt god and go to hell. Why would a loving and fatherly figure willingly make things that he know are only going to be eternally tortured? because by the very act of creating someone knowing that they are going to hell, they ar directly responsible. Thoughts on this subject?

[Cally]

Ok then, forget the perfection argument, because I don't think you are getting what I am trying to say. So, if we hold god to the set of our morals of good and forgiving, can we hold him to our same standard of evil? God created lucifer, knowing that he would sin and create evil. Again imperfection cannot come from perfection, but whatever. So god ultimately created lucifer knowing that he was creating evil. So that really means that god created evil (even though that is impossible by the perfection argument) and he makes atheists come into existence who doubt god and go to hell. Why would a loving and fatherly figure willingly make things that he know are only going to be eternally tortured? because by the very act of creating someone knowing that they are going to hell, they ar directly responsible. Thoughts on this subject?

Yeah you know, and here's where you'll see Christians argue with each other on this point. I was accosted by an atheist recently with this same issue having experience with Christians' "free will" doctrine response. Atheists are ALWAYS correct to say that Christianity is a logic trainwreck when they have in mind people who argue in terms of free will.

But "free will" isn't in my Bible so I don't even care to argue about it.

My answer is that God is comparable to a storyteller (Romans 9 compares him to a potter with the same point). He creates heroes and villains, and the heroes are glorified by the author, while the villains are destroyed in order to convey the author's morals (Romans 3:5). At the same time, God is a character in his own story, showing up and offering mercy to his creations, giving to all who ask and receive, although knowing that some were created with the ability to recognize him and others not--i.e. some were created in such a way that exposure to the truth would result in them choosing him, while others were created in such a way that they would never choose him.

As the "loving father," the God who is a character in his own story, he forgives EVERYONE who asks. He gives salvation to EVERYONE who accepts it freely. However, as creator of all things, his creation beforehand were not all designed capable of doing so--yes, it's God's doing, because again (Romans 3:5) in the beginning he crafted "villains" as it were, in order to demonstrate his righteousness in the form of administering justice to the wicked; same thing we watch in movies or read in books by perfectly "moral" authors who want to make a moral point.

[A man with questions]

Well, you said logic trainwreck, and that sentence was a logic trainwreck. If god can do a that, he cannot be perfect. As he created a story. A story in which real people suffer is an extremely unjust story. So he is ultimately responsible for all human suffering.

[A man with questions]

And do not think that I hate the bible, because I don't. To me, it's mythology. But it's really good mythology that should be taken apart and analyzed. Even if I don't believe in god, I still follow the bibles guide on morality (for the most part anyway). It is a book with much wisdom in it. No sane person can deny that.

[chosenone]

Well, you said logic trainwreck, and that sentence was a logic trainwreck. If god can do a that, he cannot be perfect. As he created a story. A story in which real people suffer is an extremely unjust story. So he is ultimately responsible for all human suffering.

That's your opinion.
He is responsible for the salvation of any man who accepts Jesus. He sent his one son to die a terrible and extremely painful death for us.
He has made a way out of the suffering and into eternal life, and all we have to do is to accept it. Its so easy.

[Cally]

Well, you said logic trainwreck, and that sentence was a logic trainwreck. If god can do a that, he cannot be perfect. As he created a story. A story in which real people suffer is an extremely unjust story. So he is ultimately responsible for all human suffering.

Sure he can: moral (if not perfect) authors can make characters who persevere through adversity that he creates for them, and villains are often treated to generous circumstances (compared to the others) and yet still turn out evil and are then punished.

Even atheists have admitted in conversations I've had that the comparison is apt; choice is a matter of causation like any other sort of event.

Suffering can mean one of two things, boiling down to the same thing: humility. To the good man, suffering means an opportunity to put his trust in God rather than himself and recognize his dependency. To the evil man, it is punishment, also in an effort to humble him, hopefully before he is humbled for all eternity.

[A man with questions]

ARGH!!!! How can you guys keep missing my points so completely?  why make anything just to send it to hell. If you know that person will suffer for all eternity, and it would be better to simply not be born, why do it? If you can put human characteristics on god of good and forgiving, then I should be able to put my human characteristics of evil on god. Do not set a double standard here. Therefore, if he has the power not to do something, knowing that someone he loves is going to be eternally punished, he is responsible. And why punish people with infinite burning for a finite transgression? That doesn't sound like a god that is the very essence of mercy to me.

[Cally]

ARGH!!!! How can you guys keep missing my points so completely?  why make anything just to send it to hell. If you know that person will suffer for all eternity, and it would be better to simply not be born, why do it? If you can put human characteristics on god of good and forgiving, then I should be able to put my human characteristics of evil on god. Do not set a double standard here. Therefore, if he has the power not to do something, knowing that someone he loves is going to be eternally punished, he is responsible. And why punish people with infinite burning for a finite transgression? That doesn't sound like a god that is the very essence of mercy to me.

I'm not missing your point. You're not accepting the answer.

I said, the point of making something just to send it to hell is to make it a CONTRAST to himself. Evil contrasts good. When you make a pencil drawing on white paper, is the black lines on the paper themselves what you are trying to illustrate, or the white within the lines with which you used black to contrast?

To the wicked person (this was said about Judas) it IS better for THEM not to be born, but to God the author it does have benefit: to contrast HIS good with the evil of the wicked person, complete with the condemnation with the wicked to demonstrate that it is in fact at odds with the good.

[Cally]

The point is, you want to declare the author himself guilty--and the only way the author could be guilty is if he DIDN'T condemn the wicked which implies his approval of wickedness.

The author (God) has essentially said, with wicked people he created: "this is wickedness, and I condemn it because I'm good." The potter has his pottery collection for HIS purposes.

[JohnDB]

ARGH!!!! How can you guys keep missing my points so completely?  why make anything just to send it to hell. If you know that person will suffer for all eternity, and it would be better to simply not be born, why do it? If you can put human characteristics on god of good and forgiving, then I should be able to put my human characteristics of evil on god. Do not set a double standard here. Therefore, if he has the power not to do something, knowing that someone he loves is going to be eternally punished, he is responsible. And why punish people with infinite burning for a finite transgression? That doesn't sound like a god that is the very essence of mercy to me.

OK...now that I am off work and can have some time to more better deal with a young man with questions. (And some of these have tried but are missing the gap between what you understand and what they are trying to explain)


First off...when you spell "God" you need to capitalize the name...lower case "g" is another designation and it isn't a positive one and when you spell our God's name with a lower case g it is offensive to us as we actually love this God you have questions about.


Secondly,
You live in Connecticut.  I hope you weren't born there or that your parents at least weren't...it doesn't speak well for you to come from that state. (I really wouldn't tell people that you are from there if you want to make a good first impression)  No one I know or have known or that I would like to know actually has ever liked anyone that ever came from that state. Granted we are open to exceptions to the rule...but so far there has been no exceptions.


Now for the grand question that has been plaguing you.


When we speak about God, and your parents and minister can explain some of the points that I am going to touch more fully, we are talking about a person who is good. Not just someone that you would like because they have a great and wonderful personality that everyone seems to like...God is more gooder and kinder and loving that you can imagine...and just for the record I can imagine a lot as I am sure you are too.


Now this goodness that God has as his Character trait is part and parcel with what is classified as a state of being called Holy.
Holy is not just perfection. It is "set apart for special use". Like the difference between wonder bread and Matza used during communion service. Both are bread but one is extremely holy.


Also now there are systems or reactions that are holy. This planet and it's ecosystem are holy. Mankind has messed it up and the earth would love to exact it's revenge (as part being holy) but it is limited due to God's intervention and protection. And that is a part of being holy that many do not understand...that systems are not static with a holy designation...they have an active response to error should it arise.


Birds are created (generally speaking) to fly, sing songs, eat bugs and seeds etc. If a bird refuses to fly a cat or some other creature automatically removes this bird from the gene pool. It is destroyed. If a bird doesn't sing the songs it was created to sing it will not reproduce and the other birds will peck at it till it dies as well. (I am thinking you are beginning to understand at this point.) All of creation has it's designated parameters that it is supposed to fulfill or else the creature or plant or rock is destroyed instantly by the world around it. This is an example of holiness at work at having a positive reaction to error. (the Earth is rather unforgiving...IE Pay attention to mother nature because she sure don't care anything about you.




Now God is what we refer to as HOLY HOLY HOLY.
What that means is that the Earth is at the first level of holy. The Temple and Tabernacle of the Old Testament was HOLY HOLY...meaning that if you were to distill the holiness into something even more pure and more good and more perfect...that was what these objects were. In fact those that had to work as priests were to live holy holy lifestyles just to work around the Temple and Tabernacle. Many times they did not and were instantly killed. In fact the wrong priest was elected in successive years to work at the Temple as high priest...and every year the priest died on atonement day when he would ask for forgiveness for the nation's sins in the Holy of Holies in the Temple...and they would drag him out by the rope attached to his leg. (They were too scared to go in there) Obviously their lack of respect for dealing with such serious matters cost them their lives. (I am going to caution you as well...God is wonderful and more gooder than you can imagine (and yes, forgiveness is part of being good)...but He is holy holy holy)




Some other attributes of God include Omniscience.
This designation is that all knowledge and wisdom come from God. No one has any that He doesn't bestow upon them. This sort of knowledge means that it is impossible to throw God a surprise party. He will not be surprised. He knows the end of time itself just as well as He knows the start of all time.  For some people, God determines that the safest place for them to be is with him in Heaven and not here on Earth. Again, God knows the future much much better than you or I do. Not one hair on my head can be harmed unless God says so. My life is his and He says I gotta stay here and do stuff.


God is also what we call OMNIPRESENT.
Meaning that God is everywhere. There is no where that God is not. There is no secret thing that God has not already seen. IOW God can hear the quiet sound of a heart breaking and be right there to catch every tear. 


God is omnipotent
God is the creator and manufacturer of all power in the universe. He has a limitless supply. No one has any power or authority that God does not actively support. Your next breath is not at God's acquiescence but at his active support. God is also perfectly efficient with his use of power. 100% efficiency is nothing to be sneezed at.  All power that you think is expended only returns to God. IOW every life that God creates actually is an extension of God...Power is not in finite supplies for God...He has an infinite supply of power.


All of this allows God to be Sovereign.
IOW nothing happens without his say so.




So...


As the centuries here turn and burn to a being that is timeless and the actual creator of time itself the world's lifespan is like watching a youtube video that seems way too short.


God loves you and me not because of anything special we have done or are going to do...He loves us because that is just the sort of person God is. God has also given us some guidelines to follow for our benefit. God doesn't need us to follow them for his benefit because God really is complete all by himself and isn't lonely or anything like that. But because He is kind and generous and giving and loving and forgiving He decided to have certain individuals write 66 books in a time span of over 1500 years that agree perfectly with each other. Many of them are written in poetry and have amazing features written into the original writing that are unbelievable...things that only either God or a madman genius could accomplish. (madman geniuses are usually too self absorbed to write about true humility to begin with)

[A man with questions]

What you just explained was God's characteristics, not why I should believe in him. An argument without base is without reason. Do you simply trust in a 2000 year old book over modern science? You did not answer any of my questions; instead you dodged the point and named characteristics. Naming characteristics of something is not a reason to believe of that thing is real. If I list characteristics about the Hindu gods, does that make you suddenly believe in them?

[A man with questions]

Oh, and before you say God is the definition of good, please do read post #61. I will not reiterate my past claims.

[A man with questions]

Oh, and wickedness wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for God creating lucifer and knowing that He was going to fall and create sin and temptation. So again, He wouldn't have to make a story to contrast himself and teach others if lucifer never existed.

[JohnDB]

What you just explained was God's characteristics, not why I should believe in him. An argument without base is without reason. Do you simply trust in a 2000 year old book over modern science? You did not answer any of my questions; instead you dodged the point and named characteristics. Naming characteristics of something is not a reason to believe of that thing is real. If I list characteristics about the Hindu gods, does that make you suddenly believe in them?

Good...OK you read them and understood them.


And you gave an answer by a guy who has limited resources and a very limited understanding of the complexity of the Bible. You are quoting something a real atheist has taught you to say and done absolutely no research on your own.  Anyone who has done real objective research into the bible and it's accuracy and complexity usually ends up as a believer. That is because the Bible is a real miracle to begin with. (and yes, I have done the really objective research) It is well over 2000 years old...some parts are well over 3500 years old.




But now lets lean on your limited understanding of normal human nature.


Lets say for argument's sake you were really rich and powerful. You could make millions of people rich just by pushing a button.


You could also kill millions of people by pushing another button...and by a third button yet you could make anyone miserable.


How long do you think it would take for second cousins three times removed to come and find you and tell you what a wonderful person they think you are and have always been there for you when you needed them?


Neighbors and past acquaintances would hound you at all hours of the day with their wants and needs and seeming kind words to you. You yould get requests for all kinds of help with endangered dirt foundations and cruelty to kittens foundations all over the place.


Finding a real friend who likes you for you and not for your money or power or out of fear is going to be a real problem eh?


How would you filter out the people in such a fashion to get yourself surrounded by real friends?




God faces this very real dilemma.


God found a filter though...a very good one...and it is also kind and loving as well.


And it is by something that we refer to as faith.


Blessed are the pure/passionate/holy in heart (Where emotions and logic cause your actions) for they shall see God.




Look, I get no benefit out of you becoming a believer. I don't get to sleep better at night or think that I get the boston fern on my mansion's in heaven front porch. I'll probably be a street sweeper up there cleaning the sewer lines. 
You, on the other hand, get every benefit out of becoming a believer.


I, as a father of a teenager, know that at this moment you are having trouble with extended logical thought process and also have a limited understanding of human nature. (it shows in your posts)


You are demanding answers that no human can actually provide. Only God can really answer your questions...but the thing of it is is that God is holy, holy, holy and He really doesn't need you. You, on the other hand, really need him...and in a big way too.


In order to find God, (which you can't do) you first gotta go looking for him. Then He will find you because you are looking for him...
Half-hearted attempts at looking for God will not get you the results you are wanting...both feet jumped in like going off the edge of a cliff. Take time and think things through before you act...try to put yourself in God's shoes. Be much more humble than you have been with us. God does not take orders, He gives orders and the whole universe strains it ears waiting for words from God.

[chosenone]

What you just explained was God's characteristics, not why I should believe in him. An argument without base is without reason. Do you simply trust in a 2000 year old book over modern science? You did not answer any of my questions; instead you dodged the point and named characteristics. Naming characteristics of something is not a reason to believe of that thing is real. If I list characteristics about the Hindu gods, does that make you suddenly believe in them?

Many scientists are Christian. There is no contradiction between science and God. Except that God knows far more about the universe that HE made, than scientists do. Man only understands a tiny tiny part of the whole truth. They think they are very clever, but really they aren't.

Hindu gods dont exist. The Father who many of us here have known for many years, does.