Religion, Doubts & Marriage

[zachzachzachzach]

My wife and I met in our church youth group when we were both 15 years old. We have been married for 4 years in a few months and have been together for a total of 9+ years. We were both raised in Charismatic Pentecostal churches and our youth group made yearly trips to the "Toronto Revival" and the "Brownsville Revival". This obviously led to a form of hyper-charismatic Christianity that we were both very much a part of, including churches like Bethel Church (Redding, CA) and Global Awakening (both very Word of Faith style teachings) attending conferences and seminars and purchasing books online and anticipating the next "strong move of God".

I started to have doubts about this form of Christianity and I started asking questions about the financial practices of many of these large ministries. It was very uncomfortable for me and gave me a bad taste in my mouth. Other Christians that I would talk to about it made it seem like I was wrong and being judgmental and it seemed like no one could see what I was seeing. So with no one to talk to and not being able to trust the churches that we were going to, we stopped going to church. We tried to find a few local churches that weren't involved with the churches that we were trying to get away from, but we had no such luck. We ended up just enjoying Sundays as our only full day off together.

In the meantime, I started researching different denominations and found comfort with Lutheranism (LCMS, not the ELCA). It was formal and traditional. The Bible has the answers to everything. It was comforting, yet I found myself being more judgmental than ever before in my life. My way of thinking became: "*insert other denomination here* are not even worshiping the same Jesus, so they aren't Christians". I wasn't happy with this but continued on, the whole time researching church history, the early church fathers, the creation of the canon – and everything that I read led to more and more questions. Are the gifts of the Spirit still active today (Cessation vs. Continuation) and if so, to what extent? How can we say for sure the canon that we have is what we are supposed to have, considering the politics involved in choosing the books that we use today? What does it mean to "walk in the Spirit"?

While investing these questions I was led into the various contradictions between the different books of the Bible that didn't sit well with me. Why are there different versions of Judas' death? Why are there different lists of the twelve disciples? Why are there different accounts of the thieves that were crucified with Jesus? Why are there different accounts of how Jesus responded to the High Priest? These are just a few of the serious ones – because for me if there are these types of discrepancies, what about the things that are mentioned only once in some other book – are they even accurate? Are we basing our faith off of false information? If so, how do we know if it's false or true? The simple answer is: FAITH. But that isn't enough right now. I can't see all of these issues and not ask questions.

I decided to speak to my wife about my doubts, and it turned out to be a huge mess. She asked me if I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and to save mankind. I said "I don't know anymore". I told her that the only reason we are Christians is because of our families and that if we were born anywhere else in the world we would be Hindu, Muslim or any other religion. I said that I feel these are healthy questions to ask and that in the grand scheme of things we know very little about how things work, what is in space, what is in the ocean – that we are discovering new plant and animal species all of the time. I said because of this, along with the discrepancies that I was finding without any non-assuming/guessing answers, has led me to feel this way. I told her that I definitely believe in God, I just don't know that Christianity is the answer.

I am not sure where to go from here. Because we have been without a church community for a few years, we don't have many people to talk with. It's not like my doubts make me happy – this is the most devastating and conflicting time in my life. I am a skeptic by nature; I just never questioned my faith like this before. It is very scary for me and I am not sure where things are going to go in my relationship. I have never thought about another woman and my wife is my best friend. I could never lie to her and just felt like I had to share my feelings with her. We were planning on getting pregnant next month, but she is now questioning that because she doesn't want to raise a child if I don't believe in Christianity. Not that I am definitely heading that way, but I think that is her fear.

Either way there are two dilemmas here:
1)   My faith and journey with God.
2)   My marriage and relationship with my wife.

I know this is a large task, but do you have any input for me/us?

Thank you.

[chosenone]

I agree with your wife in that she shouldn't get pregnant if you are even doubting your most basic faith. I suppose she married you because she thought you were a Christian and now you aren't not sure if you are, so its sort of marrying under false pretences.
I think for a young couple like you it was a big mistake to separate yourselves from Christian fellowship and support. We were aren't meant to be alone in that way, we are meant to be part of a Christian family.  Now you have no one to talk to about your doubts, and she has no one to go to for help prayers and support.  Surely with the number of churches in the USA, there are a few that you could try that aren't too far away?I cant believe there isnt one where you would feel at home. Try and find one, make friends, ask questions and see where God leads you.

[JohnDB]

YES.

You have begun a journey. STAY WITH IT. There are answers. The information you are looking for exists. There are even more "contradictions" that exist but I'll let you find them.

I love looking at these "paradoxes". They can & will increase your faith. The answers are in geography, history, ANTHROPOLOGY of the time periods, and writing styles of the time period as well.

Looking at these "contradictions" has created some of the finest apologists FOR the Christian faith.  Many of them started out to use these scriptures to prove us all fools. But 2000 years plus of believers is not easily overcome by the serious investigator. In fact the reason is that there are some amazing truths to be learned by each of these "contradictions". And one Amazing Jesus.

Continue to search out the "contradictions in the bible". Even google the section in my previos sentence which is in quotes. Others have written books on the subjects.

[DaveW]

Everyone goes thru a difficult time in their faith from time to time.  Without trials like that our faith is  untested and unproven. 

Hang in there.  Learn about the culture and the background. Learn about eye witness accounts from people who do forensics.  There are always discrepancies from different viewpoints. There are also dynamic tensions (conflicting instructions) because one-size does NOT fit all situations or people.  As you dig in you will find out that there are times and seasons for one thing and then times and seasons for something else.

Concentrate on your relationship with the Lord. That is your first priority.

[HRoberson]

Here's the deal.....the Bible is a story, and is not intended to be an air-tight Tome of All Truth.

What is the story?

You were made the image of God. (Gen 1, and 6)
God has wanted people to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God. (Micah 6.8)
You messed that up.
God sent His Son to demonstrate His love for you. (John 3.16, 17)
God wants to work the original plan in you.
The "fruit of the Spirit" is the evidence of that original plan working. (Gal 5)

The proof of the pudding for me is that every group of people, and every major religion holds essentially that the Fruit of the Spirit represents the teleos of Man. Modern psychology tells us that the healthiest people are those who exhibit that same fruit. Why is that? Because you are the image of God.

The story tells us that we are on a journey back to where we have never been.

So you have a story that tells exactly what we know to be health, from beginning to modern science.Seems reasonable to me.

[Helen]

Wow, you are really going through it, aren't you? 

First of all, about some of your questions, I think I can help.

1.  Are the gifts of the Spirit still active today?  Yes, but often misunderstood.  The gift of 'tongues' for instance is not the ability to babble in some unearthly language, but the ability to learn other languages easily or, VERY occasionally, to speak in another language for some reason for a short message to someone in their own language (but a language you have not learned.)  The gift of healing is NOT a matter of doing miracles at the human being's will.  It is a matter of being an excellent doctor.  It's like being born with a gift for music, for instance.  You can ignore it or work with it and become a good musician.  For some people, no matter how hard they try, they will never be a good musician.  They simply don't have that gift.  For some doctors, no matter what they try, they simply are not good doctors.  As for me, the idea of speaking another language, even though I took years of a foreign language, is a hopeless matter.  But I know someone who can speak five different languages fluently.  THAT is the gift of tongues!  He didn't have to learn these languages, but he chose to, and found he had the gift for it.  You will not find the Bible says that gifts are limited to believers.  They are not.  Gifts are given to each person by God's Holy Spirit to use or abuse as the person will.

2.  The canon of the Bible was basically in place quite early on.  In fact, you will note that Peter refers to Paul's letters as Scripture while Paul and Peter are still alive! 

3.  To walk in the Spirit is to follow the Holy Spirit in your daily life.  If you are born again, you are gifted immediately with the Holy Spirit in your life -- Romans 8.  That does not eliminate our freedom of choice, however, in that we can choose to listen and obey or not.  For those who occasionally choose "not," they will find themselves disciplined by God (and sometimes by man as well) -- Hebrews 12.  Walking in the Spirit is not a magical thing, but a way of life which means listening and obeying.

4.  The two 'versions' of Judas' death are not really different.  He hung himself.  However he hung himself either on or shortly before a double, or extended, Sabbath.  No one touched the body.  That would have made that person unclean.  So after two days of hanging, the rot inside him had caused enough swelling that he burst open.  Remember that Acts was written by Luke.  Most of it is eyewitness, but the first parts are the results of his research, just as the book of Luke is.  What Luke records is what he was told – the body fell and burst open.  This would have happened after hanging for two days or more with no one touching it.

5.  The lists of the 12 disciples that seem different are not.  Several of the disciples are called by their alternate names (Simon was also Peter, for instance) by different authors.

6.  The different accounts regarding the cross depending on who was standing where.  John was with Mary and very close, so he heard a lot more than those, such as Matthew, who were standing further away.  You will notice that those standing further away only record what Jesus said in a 'loud voice.'  The same goes for what was going on around Jesus at the time.  Who heard what and reported what depended very much on who was where.

7.  Regarding Jesus before the High Priest (and the Sanhedrin):  both Matthew and Mark record the same words,  eyewitness accounts.  Luke only records what happened before Pilate and Herod, which is different.  In John we read of Jesus before Annas, who was Caiaphas' father and high priest before him.  According to the Jewish New Testament Commentary, the title was retained after leaving office.  So we do not read of the interview with Caiaphas there, which we do read in Matthew and Mark.

8.  Is Christianity the answer?  All religions are based on one thing:  something is wrong with us.  We need  improving/changing/to be exalted/to realize ourselves – whatever anyone wants to call it.  We are not what we 'should' be.  No horse ever thought he needed to be a better horse, no dog a better dog.  But humans are universally dissatisfied with themselves.  All religions but one put the onus on man himself to change – do this or that, think this or that, give here or there, perform this or that rite or ritual, join this or that group/church/denomination, etc.  Only one exists where God has said, "You cannot do it yourself.  I will not only pay the debt you owe Me (which He did on the cross), but I will change you from the inside if you want Me to."  That is Christianity.   If you want to put it in purely worldly terms, Christianity is the only rational answer.  History shows us what man has done with himself!

9.  Everyone has to go through what you are going through, at some time or another, in some way or another.  Please don't be afraid of it.  It is you wrestling with God and demanding the truth.  That is a good thing.  Most people go through it between the ages of about 18 and 25, but some much later.  It is the most important thing you can do in your life – to get hold of that truth and never let it (Him) go.  Not a denomination, not a group, not a leader – Jesus Christ Himself, who IS The Truth.  But that is something God Himself will lead you to in your wrestling.  Don't be afraid of this, please. 

10.  Your wife is being cautious and that is a good thing.  But with the intensity of your questioning, I don't think either of you will have too long to wait.  I'm really sorry that most people don't actually STUDY the Bible.  Please know that James reassures us that the one prayer God ALWAYS says "Yes" to is the prayer for wisdom.  I pray for that for you and urge you to pray for it, too, not only as you read the Bible, but in every aspect of your life.

[chosenone]

Helen the gifts of the spirit are supernatural not natural. Gods supernatural healing is not healing by doctors(although he can of course use doctors), but  an unexplained healing. A lady I know was healed instantly after 7 years in a wheel chair with a brain virus. She literally got out of it and walked. I have met her many times. We had a man from the church in China visit our church a while back. He said that supernatural healings are common place there, and he was disturbed to see that in the west, they rarely happens. I think it is due to so much unbelief about the gifts in the churches of the west.

I was never good at learning languages at school, but 25 years ago, God gave me the supernatural gift of tongues as described by Paul, and I pray in tongues often. I didnt  learn anything, it was a God given supernatural language in which my spirit prays to God. My husband has been using this gift for about 35 years and also often God gives him words of prophecy as also described by Paul in the Bible. The gifts are very much in use today all over the world through millions upon millions of believers. Natural abilities are very different, but can also be used by God of course.

Anyway back to the subject of the thread, but I had to make sure the op knew this.

[HannahT]

Zachx4:

It sounds like your church tended to be rather overly authoritative.  There are many aspects of the church - or should I say some fellowships - that do tend to rock people's worlds.  There was nothing wrong with asking about finances, etc.  It certainly wasn't shameful to ask questions. 

Remember faith is a personal walk, and you will find 'humans' can take one piece of scripture and use it to say pretty much anything they want.  Some preachers come off like they have solved all the world's mysteries, and YEP they will let you know what they are as well.

Educating yourself is a good thing.  Keep in mind many scholars that truly start their journey in good faith do come to different conclusions.  It doesn't make them bad - it makes them human.  I have to wonder if sometimes God wanted them to have different answers - for his purpose, and we just don't understand WHY. 

I have friends that have exited certain churches, and had to study those churches to really wrap their minds around WHY they were so harmful.  It seems to me that the ones that push the 'don't question us' because we are God's chosen leader tend to use shame to control their flocks WAY to much.  You notice in bible stories when Jesus was asked questions he never responded like that! 

Its crazy how controlling some churches can be.  There was a discussion on facebook recently about an article an organization posted about how this place felt you needed 'permission' from them to leave the fellowship, and if they didn't agree with your reasons?  You had to stay or else take the consequences of them doing the Matt 18 all over you, and then formally kicking you out ...then letting all the neighborhood churches know you are in sin, etc.  How they shouldn't let you fellowship with them either - because they 'said so'. 

The language we take things from is dead, and its rather amazing how often you find teachings about the history of the times that can be proven that are willfully ignored today.  They decide to take scripture at times, and place a current meaning to it - say the bible states this plainly - and to heck with what it meant back in the day.  I think at times people feel more comfortable in 'tradition' than facts that can be proven.  I think it scares them.  They don't like those questions you seem to be wanting answers too.

Sounds like you enjoy study.  Don't rely on others, and dive in to teach yourself.  God may reveal all kinds of good stuff to you.  Questions don't scare God, but they sure do scare PEOPLE!   It boggles my mind at times how supercious people of faith can be, and seem to fear they would be almost contaminated if they reached out to far.  lol then of course tell you how STRONG their faith is!  Its a good head scratcher that's for sure! 

I don't know if you have ever seen the movie 'fiddler on the roof'.  At the beginning of the movie they sing a song called, "Traditions'.  They have traditions to do every aspect of life, and what was kind of funny was some 'traditions' they didn't even know WHY they did them that way.  It was just 'tradition'.  Some aspects of WHY they did things that way were lost, and yet they didn't feel right NOT doing them anyway.  We humans can be pretty strange at times! (laughs)

Scholars of God's word have never truly 'agreed' on some aspects, and no doubt they will continue to debate them to death.  It is what it is! 

Notice in life when an event happens?  People that are present may all have just a little bit of different twist to what they saw.  The bigger picture of the event they may agree on, but how they viewed it - or what they feel they saw could be different.  I have to wonder if that is not why God had the different characters in the bible write down the same events they were all there for - yet you notice the small differences from the other's experience...yet the overall message is the same.

God wants you to have both a relationship with him, and your wife.  Its okay to learn to have a different type of relationship than what you are used too.  Questions are okay.  Doubting is human.  Could be God placed you on this journey for a reason, and wants to reveal things to you that have been covered up in your life.  Keep in mind you won't ever have all the answers, and at times the pieces of puzzle will never always fall into place.  The Holy Spirit will guide you at those times.  The world could open right up as you walk along the path!