Eat the Flesh of the Son of man and Drink his Blood

[HRoberson]

Paul's dead.

[Bret]

That person who's now in the coffin...lifeless...is - in fact - without life. That person has not escaped death, hence the dead body. Now I appreciate you saying "someone who *claimed* to be a Christian" because it brings to our attention many different things we *claim* on the surface about our faith that we don't *really* believe at our core, when it comes down to it.

It seems like you are evading the question by using smoke and mirrors, redefining physical death to mean something other than the death of the body. But you may also believe that the bodies of true believers will never die. Please clarify whether or not you think true believers somehow avoid having a dead body as you conceded was true for the person in the example above.

[yogi bear]

Yes please be very clear as to what you are saying. Is the current body that your spirit and soul live in going to die and be buried. If I was to see you today in person the body I could touch would it never die and get buried?

The body you are in now is physical  your new life in Christ is still inside the old physical body and that body not the spiritual will die yes or no?

[Yahshua]

That person who's now in the coffin...lifeless...is - in fact - without life. That person has not escaped death, hence the dead body. Now I appreciate you saying "someone who *claimed* to be a Christian" because it brings to our attention many different things we *claim* on the surface about our faith that we don't *really* believe at our core, when it comes down to it.

It seems like you are evading the question by using smoke and mirrors, redefining physical death to mean something other than the death of the body. But you may also believe that the bodies of true believers will never die. Please clarify whether or not you think true believers somehow avoid having a dead body as you conceded was true for the person in the example above.

Evading? Smoke and mirrors? Bret, I can't get any clearer on what kind of death I've been talking about than to put stars around the word like I did throughout the whole post.

*******physical******* death = physical body expires; pushing up daisies; carcass stinking 6 feet in the ground.

This isn't an issues about "true believers in Christ" vs "those who are not"; I'm not making that statement. I am asking believers in Christ why do you believe so absolutely in the Power/Authority of Death over your physical, natural, temporal, mortal body IFF Christ - who is LIFE (not only spiritual life, but ****physical**** life) and who has all authority over EVERYTHING (all principalities and powers including your physical, natural, temporal, mortal body, even death), is IN YOUR BODY?

Why do you believe so absolutely in the Power/Authority of Death over your body if Christ (who's authority supersedes death's) is in your body? If you in faith died on the Cross, Christ in your body is NO DIFFERENT that Christ in the body given to him by Mary. And if it is only Christ who lives in your body, then death STILL has no authority over that physical body Christ possesses.


To your request I've bolded; You're request assumes **ALL**...and I can't answer that because it's a question of faith for the **individual** believer in Christ. It's not a question of whether someone IS a believer in a Christ, but a question of their level of faith. For instance, Christ told the apostles "you too can" do what he does like cast out demons, and they did. But there were demons they couldn't cast out because of their level of faith. Because it's based on the individual I must change your request to this:

Please clarify whether or not you think **SOME** true believers somehow avoid having a dead body

YES! I think some true believers will avoid having a dead body because they will believe that they will never physically die in Christ, like he said; like scripture says...and like scripture proves is ***physically*** possible.

Yes please be very clear as to what you are saying. Is the current body that your spirit and soul live in going to die and be buried. If I was to see you today in person the body I could touch would it never die and get buried?

The body you are in now is physical  your new life in Christ is still inside the old physical body and that body not the spiritual will die yes or no?

No, this body will never die and be buried. Yes if we met, the body you could touch (and shake hands with) will never die and get buried. Yes, the body I have now is physical and the new life in Christ is NOW inside this physical body (no different than 2000 years ago when the same Christ walked in a similarly "corrupt" physical body), and this body will not sleep but will be changed; transformed in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye at the appointed time...but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected.

-----

Death is not a natural part of life gentlemen...but the law (of sin = death) must be satisfied for every man. But thanks be to God, Christ died for me. Christ DIED FOR ME. And as long as I die to the old life, that death occurred on the cross in Christ's physical body. The Pass...Over. This is why the Holy Spirit of God abandoned Christ's body on the Cross (because my life entered into that ***physical*** body)...and why I can receive the Holy Spirit in this corrupt body now (because his life entered into this ***physical*** body). The Father loves his Son and has given the Son to have life within himself. Christ's pure, holy, blemish-free life passed over into this body and my filthy, corrupt, evil life that's constantly at war with God entered into that body.

This means "Corrupt Joshua" legally died a **physical** death on the cross. The law is satisfied in Christ.

[yogi bear]

K nuff said Thank you for your time

[Bret]

No, this body will never die and be buried. Yes if we met, the body you could touch (and shake hands with) will never die and get buried. Yes, the body I have now is physical and the new life in Christ is NOW inside this physical body (no different than 2000 years ago when the same Christ walked in a similarly "corrupt" physical body), and this body will not sleep but will be changed; transformed in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye at the appointed time...but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected.

Here is the smoke and mirror part: On one hand you say, "This body will never die and be buried." This indicates you think your physical body will never get embalmed and put in a casket. Then, on the other hand you say, "This body will not sleep but will be changed [...] but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected." This indicates that you think your body will be embalmed and put in a casket for a while, but it will be changed and escape that casket at the appointed time. Which is it? will your body be embalmed or not? Will your physical body ever be in a casket, or cremated, or buried at sea, or any other thing typical of burial?

[Yahshua]

No, this body will never die and be buried. Yes if we met, the body you could touch (and shake hands with) will never die and get buried. Yes, the body I have now is physical and the new life in Christ is NOW inside this physical body (no different than 2000 years ago when the same Christ walked in a similarly "corrupt" physical body), and this body will not sleep but will be changed; transformed in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye at the appointed time...but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected.

Here is the smoke and mirror part: On one hand you say, "This body will never die and be buried." This indicates you think your physical body will never get embalmed and put in a casket. Then, on the other hand you say, "This body will not sleep but will be changed [...] but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected." This indicates that you think your body will be embalmed and put in a casket for a while, but it will be changed and escape that casket at the appointed time. Which is it? will your body be embalmed or not? Will your physical body ever be in a casket, or cremated, or buried at sea, or any other thing typical of burial?

Ok Bret...I think I know what the problem is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your reply it sounds like you don't believe in 1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

...It sounds like you believe "all" will sleep, and so when I say my body will be changed (but only AFTER the dead in Christ resurrect) it doesn't make sense to you.

[Bret]

No, this body will never die and be buried. Yes if we met, the body you could touch (and shake hands with) will never die and get buried. Yes, the body I have now is physical and the new life in Christ is NOW inside this physical body (no different than 2000 years ago when the same Christ walked in a similarly "corrupt" physical body), and this body will not sleep but will be changed; transformed in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye at the appointed time...but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected.

Here is the smoke and mirror part: On one hand you say, "This body will never die and be buried." This indicates you think your physical body will never get embalmed and put in a casket. Then, on the other hand you say, "This body will not sleep but will be changed [...] but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected." This indicates that you think your body will be embalmed and put in a casket for a while, but it will be changed and escape that casket at the appointed time. Which is it? will your body be embalmed or not? Will your physical body ever be in a casket, or cremated, or buried at sea, or any other thing typical of burial?

Ok Bret...I think I know what the problem is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your reply it sounds like you don't believe in 1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

...It sounds like you believe "all" will sleep, and so when I say my body will be changed (but only AFTER the dead in Christ resurrect) it doesn't make sense to you.

As I said before, 1 Corinthians 15:51's statement about those who will not sleep refers to the saints who are alive when Jesus returns. Are you saying that you expect Jesus to return during your lifetime, and that is the rationale for saying your body won't be embalmed and put in a casket? Or, are you saying your body won't be embalmed and put in a casket no matter when Jesus returns? If the latter, where will your body be between the time your soul exits it and Jesus returns? Will it just vanish into thin air? Will it be translated into heaven?

[Yahshua]

No, this body will never die and be buried. Yes if we met, the body you could touch (and shake hands with) will never die and get buried. Yes, the body I have now is physical and the new life in Christ is NOW inside this physical body (no different than 2000 years ago when the same Christ walked in a similarly "corrupt" physical body), and this body will not sleep but will be changed; transformed in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye at the appointed time...but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected.

Here is the smoke and mirror part: On one hand you say, "This body will never die and be buried." This indicates you think your physical body will never get embalmed and put in a casket. Then, on the other hand you say, "This body will not sleep but will be changed [...] but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected." This indicates that you think your body will be embalmed and put in a casket for a while, but it will be changed and escape that casket at the appointed time. Which is it? will your body be embalmed or not? Will your physical body ever be in a casket, or cremated, or buried at sea, or any other thing typical of burial?

Ok Bret...I think I know what the problem is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your reply it sounds like you don't believe in 1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

...It sounds like you believe "all" will sleep, and so when I say my body will be changed (but only AFTER the dead in Christ resurrect) it doesn't make sense to you.

As I said before, 1 Corinthians 15:51's statement about those who will not sleep refers to the saints who are alive when Jesus returns. Are you saying that you expect Jesus to return during your lifetime, and that is the rationale for saying your body won't be embalmed and put in a casket? Or, are you saying your body won't be embalmed and put in a casket no matter when Jesus returns? If the latter, where will your body be between the time your soul exits it and Jesus returns? Will it just vanish into thin air? Will it be translated into heaven?

Oh Ok...

Well it's the latter, but no my soul isn't going anywhere; no extra-biblical activities (lol).

Tell me, have you ever thought about the implications of what Christ says in John 21:22?

21 When Peter saw [John], he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.

23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?""

Christ is asking Peter, "if I **want** John to remain alive **until** I return (i.e. until his 2nd coming), what is that to you?", implying he has ALL POWER to cause a man - in this flesh - to remain **physically** alive UNTIL his second advent. I know it's difficult for many of us to fathom this fact, but Christ really *does* have all power over physical death too.

Note, there's NO indication that John had to die or even that he had to be translated in order to live as long as Christ wanted him to.

Do you believe in this passage's implications?

Christ has the power over this physical life.

[Bret]

No, this body will never die and be buried. Yes if we met, the body you could touch (and shake hands with) will never die and get buried. Yes, the body I have now is physical and the new life in Christ is NOW inside this physical body (no different than 2000 years ago when the same Christ walked in a similarly "corrupt" physical body), and this body will not sleep but will be changed; transformed in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye at the appointed time...but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected.

Here is the smoke and mirror part: On one hand you say, "This body will never die and be buried." This indicates you think your physical body will never get embalmed and put in a casket. Then, on the other hand you say, "This body will not sleep but will be changed [...] but only AFTER whose who are dead in Christ are resurrected." This indicates that you think your body will be embalmed and put in a casket for a while, but it will be changed and escape that casket at the appointed time. Which is it? will your body be embalmed or not? Will your physical body ever be in a casket, or cremated, or buried at sea, or any other thing typical of burial?

Ok Bret...I think I know what the problem is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your reply it sounds like you don't believe in 1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

...It sounds like you believe "all" will sleep, and so when I say my body will be changed (but only AFTER the dead in Christ resurrect) it doesn't make sense to you.

As I said before, 1 Corinthians 15:51's statement about those who will not sleep refers to the saints who are alive when Jesus returns. Are you saying that you expect Jesus to return during your lifetime, and that is the rationale for saying your body won't be embalmed and put in a casket? Or, are you saying your body won't be embalmed and put in a casket no matter when Jesus returns? If the latter, where will your body be between the time your soul exits it and Jesus returns? Will it just vanish into thin air? Will it be translated into heaven?

Oh Ok...

Well it's the latter, but no my soul isn't going anywhere; no extra-biblical activities (lol).

Tell me, have you ever thought about the implications of what Christ says in John 21:22?

21 When Peter saw [John], he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.

23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?""

Christ is asking Peter, "if I **want** John to remain alive **until** I return (i.e. until his 2nd coming), what is that to you?", implying he has ALL POWER to cause a man - in this flesh - to remain **physically** alive UNTIL his second advent. I know it's difficult for many of us to fathom this fact, but Christ really *does* have all power over physical death too.

Note, there's NO indication that John had to die or even that he had to be translated in order to live as long as Christ wanted him to.

Do you believe in this passage's implications?

Christ has the power over this physical life.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your beliefs. Unfortunately, I must end our conversations here.

[EDEN2004]

It appears you are thinking physical while Jesus is speaking spiritual. One will die physically but the spirit will live on with Christ eternally if you do as Jesus is speaking here.

Is that what you are asking?

Yeah, Yogi Bear. Thanks! That's exactly the context of my question(s). Where is it written that all living - even those who believe in Christ - will die physically? Where is this doctrine (for lack of a better word) coming from?

Ok...when Christ says the first part, "Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead". Did he mean they died spiritually or physically? What definition does Christ established for the word "dead" at the beginning of his words in John 6:49?

And just before Christ *physically* raises Lazarus from physical death, he says [brackets are mine]:

I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die [i.e. resurrected group]; AND whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die [i.e. group remains alive]. Believe thou this?

1 Corinthians 15:50-52
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

So why do we still believe in death? Why do we still believe we will physically die if we've truly received Christ?

Hey Yahshua nice to see you're posting again. I love reading your posts, they're so deep and this one is no different... very interesting to say the least lol. It looks like you're trying to show us that the physical body of the believer never dies.

You asked "What definition does Christ established for the word "dead" at the beginning of his words in John 6:49?". I apologize if you answered this already, but I didn't see it.
The way I see it he established the word "dead" to mean physical death of the body? Because everyone in the wilderness died, even Joshua and Caleb who were true believers.

Also, in the King James Bible John 11:25 says the ones that believed in Him were already dead before they believed. If they were already dead and then came to believe in him later, then "dead" in that verse can't mean physical death. Wouldn't you agree?

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

[Yahshua]

It appears you are thinking physical while Jesus is speaking spiritual. One will die physically but the spirit will live on with Christ eternally if you do as Jesus is speaking here.

Is that what you are asking?

Yeah, Yogi Bear. Thanks! That's exactly the context of my question(s). Where is it written that all living - even those who believe in Christ - will die physically? Where is this doctrine (for lack of a better word) coming from?

Ok...when Christ says the first part, "Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead". Did he mean they died spiritually or physically? What definition does Christ established for the word "dead" at the beginning of his words in John 6:49?

And just before Christ *physically* raises Lazarus from physical death, he says [brackets are mine]:

I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die [i.e. resurrected group]; AND whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die [i.e. group remains alive]. Believe thou this?

1 Corinthians 15:50-52
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

So why do we still believe in death? Why do we still believe we will physically die if we've truly received Christ?

Hey Yahshua nice to see you're posting again. I love reading your posts, they're so deep and this one is no different... very interesting to say the least lol. It looks like you're trying to show us that the physical body of the believer never dies.

You asked "What definition does Christ established for the word "dead" at the beginning of his words in John 6:49?". I apologize if you answered this already, but I didn't see it.
The way I see it he established the word "dead" to mean physical death of the body? Because everyone in the wilderness died, even Joshua and Caleb who were true believers.

Also, in the King James Bible John 11:25 says the ones that believed in Him were already dead before they believed. If they were already dead and then came to believe in him later, then "dead" in that verse can't mean physical death. Wouldn't you agree?

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Hi Eden2004, thanks for the welcome back! I thought this post was locked but it was just moved.

I'll reply to your post later today after work (if I can).