Protestantism - Doctrinal Chaos

[AnnaM]

25,000 DIFFERENT NON-CATHOLIC DENOMINATIONS – DOCTRINAL CHAOS IS THE BAD FRUIT OF MAN-MADE RELIGION


2 Peter 2:1- "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

Following Martin Luther's excommunication from the Catholic Church in 1520, which marked the beginning of the Protestant movement, over 20,000 different denominations have been created in about 500 years. In 1980, David A. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford University Press) gave th e number of different denominations as 20,780 He projected that there would be 22,190 denominations by 1985.

This would mean that there are approximately 25,000 (or possibly 30,000) different denominations today. Even if, for the sake of argument, one were to take a conservative estimate, and give the number as only 15,000 different denominations, this equates to more than one new sect having been created every two weeks.

When we consider the fact that the original founders of Protestantism didn't even agree with each other on major points of doctrine, such denominational chaos shouldn't be a surprise. Protestantism is man-made religion, in which each person ultimately determines for himself what he thinks the Bible teaches. Martin Luther (t he initiator of Protestantism) condemned the doctrinal views of John Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli, two other leading Protestant figures. They all claimed to follow the Bible.

Basically all of these thousands of non-Catholic sects purport to be Christian and claim to follow the Bible, even though they disagree with each other on crucial doctrinal matters, such as: the precise nature of justification; whether human works and sins are a part of salvation; whether men have free will; predestination; whether infants need baptism for salvation; what Communion is; whether it's necessary to confess to the Lord; which books of the New Testament apply to us today; the structure of the Church's hierarchy; the role of bishops and ministers; the Sabbath; the role of women in church; etc. ad nauseam. Most of these groups even claim that the individual "Christian" will be led by the Holy Spirit when privately reading the Bible. The disunity of these sects constitutes an irrefutable proof that their doctrine is not of the Spirit of Truth; and that their principle of operation (i.e.., Scripture alone apart from the Church and Tradition) is not the doctrine of the Bible and the Apostles.

Ephesians 4:4-5- "One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Copyright © 2009: Most Holy Family Monastery.
All rights reserved.
www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com
www.vaticancatholic.com

[mclees8]

25,000 DIFFERENT NON-CATHOLIC DENOMINATIONS – DOCTRINAL CHAOS IS THE BAD FRUIT OF MAN-MADE RELIGION


2 Peter 2:1- "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

Following Martin Luther's excommunication from the Catholic Church in 1520, which marked the beginning of the Protestant movement, over 20,000 different denominations have been created in about 500 years. In 1980, David A. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford University Press) gave th e number of different denominations as 20,780 He projected that there would be 22,190 denominations by 1985.

This would mean that there are approximately 25,000 (or possibly 30,000) different denominations today. Even if, for the sake of argument, one were to take a conservative estimate, and give the number as only 15,000 different denominations, this equates to more than one new sect having been created every two weeks.

When we consider the fact that the original founders of Protestantism didn't even agree with each other on major points of doctrine, such denominational chaos shouldn't be a surprise. Protestantism is man-made religion, in which each person ultimately determines for himself what he thinks the Bible teaches. Martin Luther (t he initiator of Protestantism) condemned the doctrinal views of John Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli, two other leading Protestant figures. They all claimed to follow the Bible.

Basically all of these thousands of non-Catholic sects purport to be Christian and claim to follow the Bible, even though they disagree with each other on crucial doctrinal matters, such as: the precise nature of justification; whether human works and sins are a part of salvation; whether men have free will; predestination; whether infants need baptism for salvation; what Communion is; whether it's necessary to confess to the Lord; which books of the New Testament apply to us today; the structure of the Church's hierarchy; the role of bishops and ministers; the Sabbath; the role of women in church; etc. ad nauseam. Most of these groups even claim that the individual "Christian" will be led by the Holy Spirit when privately reading the Bible. The disunity of these sects constitutes an irrefutable proof that their doctrine is not of the Spirit of Truth; and that their principle of operation (i.e.., Scripture alone apart from the Church and Tradition) is not the doctrine of the Bible and the Apostles.

Ephesians 4:4-5- "One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Copyright © 2009: Most Holy Family Monastery.
All rights reserved.
www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com
www.vaticancatholic.com

Please this has been around the block here as many times as 30,00 denominations. There is an old saying that goes, "those who live in a glass house should never through stones. It never seems to occur to many Catholics that if Mother church had not been corrupt the birth of 30,000 denominations may never have been birthed . The question is, is Mother church truly the church founded or is she the church of REV17.

You are not the first new catholic to come on this forum,   guns blazing with old antique guns

[AnnaM]

It never seems to occur to many Catholics that if Mother church had not been corrupt the birth of 30,000 denominations may never have been birthed .

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[HRoberson]

How many Catholic denominations?

Greek Orthodox
Russian Orthodox
...
...
Roman Catholic pre-V2
Roman Catholic post-V2
...
...
The catholic church that affirmed Arianism
The catholic church that rejected Arianism
...
...
The Byzantine Catholic Church
The Maronite Church

And on and on.

There is also a considerable logical error in this assertion. Just because you want to lump everyone who disagrees with you in one pile does not demonstrate the validity of your claim to be The Church. That my dear, is a non sequitur.

The fact is that most Baptists will accept as saved most any other Protestant. Within the Roman world, acceptance resolves eventually to submitting to the Vicar. And so what we are faced with is a constellation of Roman and Orthodox churches, all of whom claim rightly to have come from the Apostles, who cannot enter commuion with each other because the Vicar thinks he should determine doctrine for his peers.

Now tell me again, who has the division problem?

[Helen]

The church Jesus established has no divisions.  It is not a visible church, but is made up of all believers from all times and places.  He knows who is who. 

[AVZ]

25,000 DIFFERENT NON-CATHOLIC DENOMINATIONS – DOCTRINAL CHAOS IS THE BAD FRUIT OF MAN-MADE RELIGION


2 Peter 2:1- "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

Following Martin Luther's excommunication from the Catholic Church in 1520, which marked the beginning of the Protestant movement, over 20,000 different denominations have been created in about 500 years. In 1980, David A. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford University Press) gave th e number of different denominations as 20,780 He projected that there would be 22,190 denominations by 1985.

This would mean that there are approximately 25,000 (or possibly 30,000) different denominations today. Even if, for the sake of argument, one were to take a conservative estimate, and give the number as only 15,000 different denominations, this equates to more than one new sect having been created every two weeks.

When we consider the fact that the original founders of Protestantism didn't even agree with each other on major points of doctrine, such denominational chaos shouldn't be a surprise. Protestantism is man-made religion, in which each person ultimately determines for himself what he thinks the Bible teaches. Martin Luther (t he initiator of Protestantism) condemned the doctrinal views of John Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli, two other leading Protestant figures. They all claimed to follow the Bible.

Basically all of these thousands of non-Catholic sects purport to be Christian and claim to follow the Bible, even though they disagree with each other on crucial doctrinal matters, such as: the precise nature of justification; whether human works and sins are a part of salvation; whether men have free will; predestination; whether infants need baptism for salvation; what Communion is; whether it's necessary to confess to the Lord; which books of the New Testament apply to us today; the structure of the Church's hierarchy; the role of bishops and ministers; the Sabbath; the role of women in church; etc. ad nauseam. Most of these groups even claim that the individual "Christian" will be led by the Holy Spirit when privately reading the Bible. The disunity of these sects constitutes an irrefutable proof that their doctrine is not of the Spirit of Truth; and that their principle of operation (i.e.., Scripture alone apart from the Church and Tradition) is not the doctrine of the Bible and the Apostles.

Ephesians 4:4-5- "One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Copyright © 2009: Most Holy Family Monastery.
All rights reserved.
www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com
www.vaticancatholic.com

Anna,

Only the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible translation uses the words "who shall bring in sects of perdition" and it's a typical Catholic mistranslation.
The Greek word used is "hairesis", which is correctly to be translated as "heresies".

Because of this mistranslation, Catholics tend to point to certain groups. In this case you point at Protestant groups.
And that's why you call Protestant denominations "sects".
The Bible however speaks of heresies...which points to teaching.

The correct translation therefore is:
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Now you have already declared that Pope Francis is a "raging heretic" and you already have condemned Vatican II as heresy.
According to you therefore Pope Francis is a false teacher, and Vatican II is a damnable heresy.

So by applying 2 Peter 2:1, you are practically and factually condemning the Catholic Church as a heretic church.
Hence the swift destruction you reserve for the Protestant sects, is in fact the tool of your own destruction.

[.:Lily:.]

Jesus did not establish a Church.

I'm not a protestant and I no longer believe in a universal Church. There is no such thing. God showed me that was a lie and sadly embraced by many Protestant denominations today. I believe in Churches just like the bible mentioned Many different churches. I'm Apostolic Christian.

I found sedevacantists very interesting but I do not know much about them. You seem to believe that all Protestants are not saved, but well you dear are considered a protestant by most Roman Catholics!

Anna, why the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church according to you? What is it that you think can help ME to reach such a conclusion? What do I need to read to find the truth? I read my bible and can't see this universal catholic church anywhere.

I used to believe that I'm catholic in many ways when I was a practicing Anglican. My previous church officially states they believe in "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." I received teachings, traditions and many of them were lies or not biblical. I could not tell because I was newly Christian at that time and did not really read my bible much to question their doctrines but even that is nothing compared to Roman Catholicism. Your church should not belong to the 25,000 ones because it is a complete apostate. There is no salvation in Roman Catholicism. If you want to have a dialog, maybe you should use the holy bible that you claim it is a Catholic book.

[mclees8]

It never seems to occur to many Catholics that if Mother church had not been corrupt the birth of 30,000 denominations may never have been birthed .

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I think I do. Do you know how long I've on been on this board and others like it. I have lost count. Yet there is not one single shred of evidence that has convinced me or the multitude of others likewise. What's more I think you know that's true to. So please don't think us ignorant babes. The corrupt history of the RCC is well documented unless you want to deny it. People did dot revolt for no good reason. So don't think your church has no fault. If she were blameless and truly righteous just as the church Jesus founded then Luthor had no beef and the reformation would not have taken place.

[AnnaM]

The corrupt history of the RCC is well documented unless you want to deny it. People did dot revolt for no good reason. So don't think your church has no fault. If she were blameless and truly righteous just as the church Jesus founded then Luthor had no beef and the reformation would not have taken place.

The true faith of Jesus Christ is a deposit. It does not fall out of the sky to a man who lives 15 centuries after Christ. It was revealed by Jesus Christ to His Apostles 2000 years ago, and it was passed on by the Apostles to the Church.

Jude 1:3- "...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

The true faith thus has a historical link to the apostolic Church; and it can be shown to have been believed by those who came before in the Church.It is passed on from generation to generation. Martin Luther grew up with the Catholic faith. Protestantism was unknown to him as a child; it was unknown to him as priest; it was unknown to him when he posted his 95 Theses, and even when he first called the pope the Antichrist and was appealing to a general council. At some point, indeed, Martin Luther came up with Protestantism, and his conclusions had no link with his predecessors or even with what he had said or believed before. They were truly the inventions and "discoveries" of a man, Martin Luther.

Protestants have thus submitted themselves to a system which Martin Luther came up with among the rest of his contradictory and ever-changing views. These "discoveries" include the idea that man is justified by faith alone, which word for word contradicts the teaching of the Bible (James 2:24) - a contradiction so blatant that Luther felt compelled to criticize the book of James because  it contradicted him. In fact, Luther wanted to throw James out of teh Bible and into the stove (i.e. the fire), until his friends persuaded him that such a move would be too radical. vaticancatholic.com

Martin Luther had a preoccupation with the devil and crude subjects. According to Luther, he came up with the idea of 'faith alone' while sitting on the toilet. There are many outrageous actions and quotes of Martin Luther.

Don't blame the Catholic Church, the Spouse of Jesus Christ, for the evils that arise from the hearts of wicked men.

I think I do. Do you know how long I've on been on this board and others like it. I have lost count. Yet there is not one single shred of evidence that has convinced me or the multitude of others likewise.

"The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15)

[AnnaM]

How many Catholic denominations?

Greek Orthodox
Russian Orthodox
...
...
Roman Catholic pre-V2
Roman Catholic post-V2
...
...
The catholic church that affirmed Arianism
The catholic church that rejected Arianism
...
...
The Byzantine Catholic Church
The Maronite Church

And on and on.

There is also a considerable logical error in this assertion. Just because you want to lump everyone who disagrees with you in one pile does not demonstrate the validity of your claim to be The Church. That my dear, is a non sequitur.

The fact is that most Baptists will accept as saved most any other Protestant. Within the Roman world, acceptance resolves eventually to submitting to the Vicar. And so what we are faced with is a constellation of Roman and Orthodox churches, all of whom claim rightly to have come from the Apostles, who cannot enter commuion with each other because the Vicar thinks he should determine doctrine for his peers.

Now tell me again, who has the division problem?

It's impossible for the Catholic Church to be divided against Herself. Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church, has given a famous definition of the Catholic Church. Saint Robert Bellarmine's formula is recognized by many as the most precise scholastic definition of the Church to this day.

St. Robert Bellarmine (16th century): The Church is one, not twofold, and this one true [Catholic] Church is the assembly of men united in the profession of the same Christian faith and in the communion of the same sacraments, under the rule of legitimate pastors, and in particular, that of the one Vicar of Christ on earth, the Roman Pontiff. The first part excludes all infidels, those who were never in the Church such as Jews, Turks, and pagans, or those who were once in it and later fell away, like the heretics and apostates. The second part excludes the catechumens and excommunicated, since the former are not admitted to the sacraments and the latter are excluded from them..." Quoted from VaticanCatholic.com

You have no reason not accept the fact that the Roman Catholic Church alone is the one established by Jesus Christ in the year 33.

In Matthew 16:16-19, Jesus gives the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to St. Peter, and declares that whatsoever he binds on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever he looses upon earth, shall be loosed in Heaven. Even though all 12 disciples are gathered together for this meeting, Jesus says these things only to Peter...

No other Apostle is given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 18:18, we read that all the Apostles are given the power to bind and loose; but Peter alone is promised the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 16:19. This shows us that the power which is given to all the Apostles to bind and to loose in Matthew 18:18, must be exercised under the keys which are given alone to Peter. Peter has a unique position of authority in the Church. VaticanCatholic.com

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctum, ex cathedra: "The one  mystical body... and in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Eph. 4:5). Certainly Noe had only one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church... outside which we read all living things on earth were destroyed... which body he called the 'Only one,' namely, the Church, because of the unity of the Spouse, the faith, the sacraments, and the charity of the Church."

[chosenone]

There are divisions in all churches, R Catholic or otherwise.

[chosenone]

25,000 DIFFERENT NON-CATHOLIC DENOMINATIONS – DOCTRINAL CHAOS IS THE BAD FRUIT OF MAN-MADE RELIGION


2 Peter 2:1- "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

Following Martin Luther's excommunication from the Catholic Church in 1520, which marked the beginning of the Protestant movement, over 20,000 different denominations have been created in about 500 years. In 1980, David A. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford University Press) gave th e number of different denominations as 20,780 He projected that there would be 22,190 denominations by 1985.

This would mean that there are approximately 25,000 (or possibly 30,000) different denominations today. Even if, for the sake of argument, one were to take a conservative estimate, and give the number as only 15,000 different denominations, this equates to more than one new sect having been created every two weeks.

When we consider the fact that the original founders of Protestantism didn't even agree with each other on major points of doctrine, such denominational chaos shouldn't be a surprise. Protestantism is man-made religion, in which each person ultimately determines for himself what he thinks the Bible teaches. Martin Luther (t he initiator of Protestantism) condemned the doctrinal views of John Calvin and Huldrych Zwingli, two other leading Protestant figures. They all claimed to follow the Bible.

Basically all of these thousands of non-Catholic sects purport to be Christian and claim to follow the Bible, even though they disagree with each other on crucial doctrinal matters, such as: the precise nature of justification; whether human works and sins are a part of salvation; whether men have free will; predestination; whether infants need baptism for salvation; what Communion is; whether it's necessary to confess to the Lord; which books of the New Testament apply to us today; the structure of the Church's hierarchy; the role of bishops and ministers; the Sabbath; the role of women in church; etc. ad nauseam. Most of these groups even claim that the individual "Christian" will be led by the Holy Spirit when privately reading the Bible. The disunity of these sects constitutes an irrefutable proof that their doctrine is not of the Spirit of Truth; and that their principle of operation (i.e.., Scripture alone apart from the Church and Tradition) is not the doctrine of the Bible and the Apostles.

Ephesians 4:4-5- "One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Copyright © 2009: Most Holy Family Monastery.
All rights reserved.
www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com
www.vaticancatholic.com

Christian Churches are not 'non Catholic sects', they are different denominations. I have been to churches of 4 or 5 different denominations in my life, and they all believe the same important facts about Jesus. They all worship the same God and His son Jesus Christ. I think that different denominations are actually a  positive thing, because we all like to pray and worship in different ways and I love the diversity of the church family. We do not all have to do everything in exactly the same way as everyone else. How boring that would be.

[HRoberson]

How many Catholic denominations?

Greek Orthodox
Russian Orthodox
...
...
Roman Catholic pre-V2
Roman Catholic post-V2
...
...
The catholic church that affirmed Arianism
The catholic church that rejected Arianism
...
...
The Byzantine Catholic Church
The Maronite Church

And on and on.

There is also a considerable logical error in this assertion. Just because you want to lump everyone who disagrees with you in one pile does not demonstrate the validity of your claim to be The Church. That my dear, is a non sequitur.

The fact is that most Baptists will accept as saved most any other Protestant. Within the Roman world, acceptance resolves eventually to submitting to the Vicar. And so what we are faced with is a constellation of Roman and Orthodox churches, all of whom claim rightly to have come from the Apostles, who cannot enter commuion with each other because the Vicar thinks he should determine doctrine for his peers.

Now tell me again, who has the division problem?

It's impossible for the Catholic Church to be divided against Herself. Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church, has given a famous definition of the Catholic Church. Saint Robert Bellarmine's formula is recognized by many as the most precise scholastic definition of the Church to this day.

Well, if you keep defining the church as your favorite surviving remnant, you are correct. However, the fact remains that the Orthodox (of all stripes) and the Roman church were all originally the same church. Then , the fact is that Luther and Calvin were both Catholic. No splits? Historically unsupportable.

St. Robert Bellarmine (16th century): The Church is one, not twofold, and this one true [Catholic] Church is the assembly of men united in the profession of the same Christian faith and in the communion of the same sacraments, under the rule of legitimate pastors, and in particular, that of the one Vicar of Christ on earth, the Roman Pontiff. The first part excludes all infidels, those who were never in the Church such as Jews, Turks, and pagans, or those who were once in it and later fell away, like the heretics and apostates. The second part excludes the catechumens and excommunicated, since the former are not admitted to the sacraments and the latter are excluded from them..." Quoted from VaticanCatholic.com

You have no reason not accept the fact that the Roman Catholic Church alone is the one established by Jesus Christ in the year 33.

You have no reason to not accept that the Orthodox churches also originate at the same point as the Roman church, and that it is largely Rome's fault for, and the continuance of the split within the original church.

In Matthew 16:16-19, Jesus gives the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to St. Peter, and declares that whatsoever he binds on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever he looses upon earth, shall be loosed in Heaven. Even though all 12 disciples are gathered together for this meeting, Jesus says these things only to Peter...

No other Apostle is given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 18:18, we read that all the Apostles are given the power to bind and loose; but Peter alone is promised the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 16:19. This shows us that the power which is given to all the Apostles to bind and to loose in Matthew 18:18, must be exercised under the keys which are given alone to Peter. Peter has a unique position of authority in the Church. VaticanCatholic.com

The power to bind and loose are the keys. If the keys were only given to Peter, then the binding and loosing are reserved to Peter. If all the Apostles could bind and loose, then they all had the keys.

But that is irrelevant, actually. The assumption you make is that this binding and loosing, and the entire cleric scaffolding is somehow passed on by necessity only through people the Apostles touched. That is pure conjecture.

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctum, ex cathedra: "The one  mystical body... and in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Eph. 4:5). Certainly Noe had only one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church... outside which we read all living things on earth were destroyed... which body he called the 'Only one,' namely, the Church, because of the unity of the Spouse, the faith, the sacraments, and the charity of the Church."

[/quote]
This church is composed of believers, not some divinely directed cleric structure.

[HRoberson]

"The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15)

there are more Catholics than any other, by far. You might want to be careful about which verses you use.

[MeMyself]

"The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15)

there are more Catholics than any other, by far. You might to be careful about which verses you use.

lol!

[mclees8]

The corrupt history of the RCC is well documented unless you want to deny it. People did dot revolt for no good reason. So don't think your church has no fault. If she were blameless and truly righteous just as the church Jesus founded then Luthor had no beef and the reformation would not have taken place.

The true faith of Jesus Christ is a deposit. It does not fall out of the sky to a man who lives 15 centuries after Christ. It was revealed by Jesus Christ to His Apostles 2000 years ago, and it was passed on by the Apostles to the Church.

Jude 1:3- "...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

The true faith thus has a historical link to the apostolic Church; and it can be shown to have been believed by those who came before in the Church.It is passed on from generation to generation. Martin Luther grew up with the Catholic faith. Protestantism was unknown to him as a child; it was unknown to him as priest; it was unknown to him when he posted his 95 Theses, and even when he first called the pope the Antichrist and was appealing to a general council. At some point, indeed, Martin Luther came up with Protestantism, and his conclusions had no link with his predecessors or even with what he had said or believed before. They were truly the inventions and "discoveries" of a man, Martin Luther.

Protestants have thus submitted themselves to a system which Martin Luther came up with among the rest of his contradictory and ever-changing views. These "discoveries" include the idea that man is justified by faith alone, which word for word contradicts the teaching of the Bible (James 2:24) - a contradiction so blatant that Luther felt compelled to criticize the book of James because  it contradicted him. In fact, Luther wanted to throw James out of teh Bible and into the stove (i.e. the fire), until his friends persuaded him that such a move would be too radical. vaticancatholic.com

Martin Luther had a preoccupation with the devil and crude subjects. According to Luther, he came up with the idea of 'faith alone' while sitting on the toilet. There are many outrageous actions and quotes of Martin Luther.

Don't blame the Catholic Church, the Spouse of Jesus Christ, for the evils that arise from the hearts of wicked men.

I think I do. Do you know how long I've on been on this board and others like it. I have lost count. Yet there is not one single shred of evidence that has convinced me or the multitude of others likewise.

"The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15)

Well Im sure salvation does not fall out of the sky. Not sure what you thinking. Im sure also that there may also be some misconception about true salvation. I believe many think they are saved because the have joined or identify with a certain church. Truly thought I am no judge of any ones salvation as we are all work out our own salvation. I do know that with out faith no one can please God so with out faith no can be saved.

You quoted Jude 1:3. I don't know how you are reading this verse or to whom you believe the saints are. In fact I not sure you intent for using it is. I can tell you what it says thought. Jude was warning the churches  of false teachers and corrupt men in their mist. He warned them to contend for the true faith that was originally given to the saints. Which could read once given to all believers by the apostles. I don't know how you read but that is what it say. We could receive that same admonition today.

Your quote from ECC is broad and can go both ways.  It is true Luther knew nothing of Protestantism when he post his thesis. the question was did challenge corrupt practices of the RCC. His original intent was never to start the reformation or even leave the RCC.  don't even know if he understood the full scope of the corruption. I will be back on this.