Changes in the Vatican!

[Helen]

"The Bible is not the only source of information,"

Of course not; but it is the infallible plumb line regarding the truth of any other information that we may come across.  If something disagrees with the plain and simple reading of God's Word, then that something is false.

So knowing God's Word is rather important.

[AVZ]

The Bible is not the only source of information, even those who put the canon together knew this. It was not the intent to make Christianity 'sola scriptura', it was to simply have a Bible.

I know that seems like mincing to you protestants, because you've been warped to believe that there is no difference. But there is, there is a gargantuan difference- your denominations of Christianity are severely limited, you all have no insight on a great deal of things.

The greatest extent of non-Catholic belief is it's fantastically self-declared grandness.  Not one single paragraph or point can be made by you all that doesn't mention something along the lines of "the Church is the Devil and we are true saints". Your beliefs aren't really rooted in scripture, but prejudice.

When you can't slot in truth, your interpretation of the Bible trumps it.
Really?
That's what arguing with a Protestant is.

According to the RCC, besides the Bible there is also he source of Apostolic Tradition.
Support or this belief is found in

2 Thessalonians 2:15
"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

Now I have absolutely no beef with Catholics over this, and yes I agree that there is tradition that we should hold fast to.

But for a tradition to be apostolic, or sacred...one must show that this tradition was taught by the apostles.
It says in Thessalonians: "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings WE passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

I have asked Catholics many times on this board to show me that for example the so-called tradition of the veneration of Mary, was a tradition taught by the apostles.
Up to today not a single Catholic has stepped forward to even make an attempt to provide such evidence.
In fact, the Catholic Church utterly fails to provide evidence for every single sacred tradition she holds so dear.
That includes papal infallibility, apostolic succession, monopoly of interpretation and the assumption of Mary.

So, here again I would like to extend the invitation to you to show to me that there are traditions which were taught by the apostles, and which were not mentioned in the Bible.

[BlackSepulcher]

You said: "The Bible is not the only source of information,"

There are other sources of information, we will freely admit.  There are tons of books in the world on many things~from science, to math, sex, history, etc. But there is "only ONE source of TRUTH concerning the TESTIMONY OF GOD in matters of godliness life and death, and life after death.

Catholics believe, rightly, that the Spirit is the source of truth, and not all of it made it's way to paper. Sola scriptura is a rejection of orthodox Christianity under the guise of being an acceptance of truth.

There are other sources of information that are very much relevant to Christianity. None of it is contrary to the Bible, but your rejection of orthodoxy warps your perception.

The majority of Christianity venerating Mary, for example:
What do you think is more likely- that over a billion Christians in this world are stupid and can't see what you say is so obvious, or that those like yourself are just fantastically incorrigible?

[AVZ]

You said: "The Bible is not the only source of information,"

There are other sources of information, we will freely admit.  There are tons of books in the world on many things~from science, to math, sex, history, etc. But there is "only ONE source of TRUTH concerning the TESTIMONY OF GOD in matters of godliness life and death, and life after death.

Catholics believe, rightly, that the Spirit is the source of truth, and not all of it made it's way to paper. Sola scriptura is a rejection of orthodox Christianity under the guise of being an acceptance of truth.

There are other sources of information that are very much relevant to Christianity. None of it is contrary to the Bible, but your rejection of orthodoxy warps your perception.

The majority of Christianity venerating Mary, for example:
What do you think is more likely- that over a billion Christians in this world are stupid and can't see what you say is so obvious, or that those like yourself are just fantastically incorrigible?

Ah cool! Christianity now is a democratic system. The majority decides.
So you would be OK if we bring papal infallibility up for a vote among Christians?
The majority wins...would that be OK with you?

[Red Baker]

You said: "The Bible is not the only source of information,"

There are other sources of information, we will freely admit.  There are tons of books in the world on many things~from science, to math, sex, history, etc. But there is "only ONE source of TRUTH concerning the TESTIMONY OF GOD in matters of godliness life and death, and life after death.

Catholics believe, rightly, that the Spirit is the source of truth, and not all of it made it's way to paper. Sola scriptura is a rejection of orthodox Christianity under the guise of being an acceptance of truth.

There are other sources of information that are very much relevant to Christianity. None of it is contrary to the Bible, but your rejection of orthodoxy warps your perception.

The majority of Christianity venerating Mary, for example:
What do you think is more likely- that over a billion Christians in this world are stupid and can't see what you say is so obvious, or that those like yourself are just fantastically incorrigible?

You said: "What do you think is more likely- that over a billion Christians in this world are stupid and can't see what you say is so obvious, or that those like yourself are just fantastically incorrigible?"


So you trust in numbers more than the word of God?  This does not surprise me.  You need to read God's word and see what children of faith trust in!  2 King 6:15-17!

Ahab had four hundred prophets that he trusted in against one true prophet who spoke that which Ahab always hatred to hear!  That why he kept him locked up.  He's prophet 401, know who that might be? Micaiah!  Read 1 King 22! What is the ratio of 400 to one?

I could care less if your sect has two billion people!  If they go against the word of God, then we go against them.  True children of faith, live by every word of God.  Reject the worship of Mary, because her own testimony reveals to us that we should. Luke 1:47

RB

[Catholica]

-We shouldn't judge anybody, even homosexuals. That doesn't mean that they can be sanctified in marriage, or that their sexuality is not contrary to nature.

What you're saying is satanic. Sodomites and perverts are already judged by God. That's a fact. Sodomy is an abomination and one of the sins that cries out to Heaven for vengeance. It's mortally sinful, actually blasphemous to suggest they can be "sanctified in marriage."

Wrong, sodomites and perverts are still alive; they will be judged by God at their death.  The act of sodomy is a sin, and people who die in that sin will be judged by God.  But until then, God's mercy is available to them, and we are some of it's ministers.  We need to love them and be like Christ to them so that we can lead them to repentance through God's mercy and forgiveness.

And BlackSepulcher didn't say they could be sanctified in marriage.  He said exactly the opposite.  "That doesn't mean that they can be sancitified in marriage, or that their sexuality is not contrary to nature".

"Sins against nature, therefore, like the sin of Sodom, are abominable and deserve punishment whenever and wherever they are committed. If all nations committed them, all alike would be held guilty of the same charge in God's law, for our Maker did not prescribe that we should use each other in this way. In fact, the relationship that we ought to have with God is itself violated when our nature, of which He is Author, is desecrated by perverted lust." (Saint Augustine)

"No sin has greater power over the soul than the one of cursed sodomy, which was always detested by all those who lived according to God... (Saint Bernadine of Siena)

No one is arguing with these statements.  They are both referring to sins, not persons.  People are judged, by God, at their death.   Their sins have been proclaimed as sins.

A person with this disordered attraction may resist against committing that sin, and because of that, we are not to judge that a person with this disordered attraction is bound for Hell.  Rather we must pray for them, that they repent and receive God's mercy.

[Catholica]

The Vatican now says celibacy not necessarily dogma, atheists and agnostics can be forgiven if they follow their consciences, and refuses to judge homosexuality. 

So much for Jesus and the Bible!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10302850/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-atheists-and-agnostics.html

All of which is a direct rejection of Catholic teaching. Still think Francis is pope? Still think the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church? What more proof do you need? Wake up.

The secular media is your source for truth?

There is a lot of truth to people wanting to hear things that tickle their ears.  When they do, their search for the truth ends.

Anytime anyone says anything that seems to calumniate another person, we should not stand in agreement until we have done everything in our power to find the truth.  When I was in sin, I suspected people of terrible motives all the time.  When I repented and allowed Jesus to find me, I found that all that darkness was false, that people in general are honest and faithful and true.

I've already addressed the article.  If you love Jesus more than you hate the pope, you should look past the secular accusations yourself to find the truth.  That is the thing that someone who wants to be like Jesus would do.

[DaveW]

Sodomites and perverts are already judged by God.

Wrong, sodomites and perverts are still alive; they will be judged by God at their death.

Um - since God exists OUTSIDE of time as we know it; does either statement make any sense?

[Catholica]

Sodomites and perverts are already judged by God.

Wrong, sodomites and perverts are still alive; they will be judged by God at their death.

Um - since God exists OUTSIDE of time as we know it; does either statement make any sense?

Yes, because we exist inside of time.

[AVZ]

The Vatican now says celibacy not necessarily dogma, atheists and agnostics can be forgiven if they follow their consciences, and refuses to judge homosexuality. 

So much for Jesus and the Bible!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10302850/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-atheists-and-agnostics.html

All of which is a direct rejection of Catholic teaching. Still think Francis is pope? Still think the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church? What more proof do you need? Wake up.

The secular media is your source for truth?

There is a lot of truth to people wanting to hear things that tickle their ears.  When they do, their search for the truth ends.

Anytime anyone says anything that seems to calumniate another person, we should not stand in agreement until we have done everything in our power to find the truth.  When I was in sin, I suspected people of terrible motives all the time.  When I repented and allowed Jesus to find me, I found that all that darkness was false, that people in general are honest and faithful and true.

I've already addressed the article.  If you love Jesus more than you hate the pope, you should look past the secular accusations yourself to find the truth.  That is the thing that someone who wants to be like Jesus would do.

The problem is that truth is hard to find in the Catholic Church.
If you ask the Vatican, she will come up with a 25 page essay that refers to other 25 page essays, which refer to other 25 page essays.
And the moment you dispute an essay, then it is not necessarily true because its not dogma.
And if it is dogma then one should not try to dispute it because one misses the power of interpretation.
And if one does possess the power of interpretation, then one should not vent it because the Church is always led into all truth through infallibility.
And when infallibility is disputed the Church points to tradition.
And when tradition is being disputed the Church comes right back at missing the power of interpretation.

Truth in the Catholic Church is like a dog chasing its own tail.

[DaveW]

Sodomites and perverts are already judged by God.

Wrong, sodomites and perverts are still alive; they will be judged by God at their death.

Um - since God exists OUTSIDE of time as we know it; does either statement make any sense?

Yes, because we exist inside of time.

Yes we do - but that ONLY affects when we experience God's judgement - not when it actually happens.

[Catholica]

Sodomites and perverts are already judged by God.

Wrong, sodomites and perverts are still alive; they will be judged by God at their death.

Um - since God exists OUTSIDE of time as we know it; does either statement make any sense?

Yes, because we exist inside of time.

Yes we do - but that ONLY affects when we experience God's judgement - not when it actually happens.

The judgement happens in eternity.  And God knows everything that we would do in our lives; he knew it from eternity.  But we cannot know what another person's judgment is, because we cannot see the future nor can we even see their heart at present.  Therefore we should not judge them as people.  Though when we are aware of actions, we can judge actions.

And what a person does in their life does matter toward their judgment.  That message is clear in the Bible, in every single passage that speaks of the judgment.  So we should not treat someone as if what they have already done will damn them to hell.  We know that our Lord is merciful, and we are his servants, thus we are servants to spread God's mercy and love.  Judging someone cuts off that mercy and love from them.  And as servants of God, who are meant to be ministers of reconciliation, our decision to judge them can affect their salvation, and thus that same decision to judge them also affects our own judgment.

We either go to heaven dragging people with us or we go to hell dragging people with us.

[mclees8]

Sodomites and perverts are already judged by God.

Wrong, sodomites and perverts are still alive; they will be judged by God at their death.

Um - since God exists OUTSIDE of time as we know it; does either statement make any sense?

Yes, because we exist inside of time.

Yes we do - but that ONLY affects when we experience God's judgement - not when it actually happens.

The judgement happens in eternity.  And God knows everything that we would do in our lives; he knew it from eternity.  But we cannot know what another person's judgment is, because we cannot see the future nor can we even see their heart at present.  Therefore we should not judge them as people.  Though when we are aware of actions, we can judge actions.

And what a person does in their life does matter toward their judgment.  That message is clear in the Bible, in every single passage that speaks of the judgment.  So we should not treat someone as if what they have already done will damn them to hell.  We know that our Lord is merciful, and we are his servants, thus we are servants to spread God's mercy and love.  Judging someone cuts off that mercy and love from them.  And as servants of God, who are meant to be ministers of reconciliation, our decision to judge them can affect their salvation, and thus that same decision to judge them also affects our own judgment.

We either go to heaven dragging people with us or we go to hell dragging people with us.

I amen that Catholica . There are somethings we can agree on

[epiphanius]

... We know that our Lord is merciful, and we are his servants, thus we are servants to spread God's mercy and love.  Judging someone cuts off that mercy and love from them.  And as servants of God, who are meant to be ministers of reconciliation, our decision to judge them can affect their salvation, and thus that same decision to judge them also affects our own judgment.

We either go to heaven dragging people with us or we go to hell dragging people with us.

I amen that Catholica . There are somethings we can agree on

I second that amen.

He who is not with me is against me, and he who doesn't gather with me, scatters. (Mt. 12:30 )

If we're "dragging people with us," are we not "gathering with Him?"

[Catholica]

... We know that our Lord is merciful, and we are his servants, thus we are servants to spread God's mercy and love.  Judging someone cuts off that mercy and love from them.  And as servants of God, who are meant to be ministers of reconciliation, our decision to judge them can affect their salvation, and thus that same decision to judge them also affects our own judgment.

We either go to heaven dragging people with us or we go to hell dragging people with us.

I amen that Catholica . There are somethings we can agree on

I second that amen.

He who is not with me is against me, and he who doesn't gather with me, scatters. (Mt. 12:30 )

If we're "dragging people with us," are we not "gathering with Him?"

Absolutely, if we are dragging people toward heaven.  Otherwise we are scattering, as Jesus says.

[Helen]

Good grief!  We're not dragging anyone anywhere.  They are making their own choices.  Our behavior can influence those choices, but not make them for anyone.

[Catholica]

Good grief!  We're not dragging anyone anywhere.  They are making their own choices.  Our behavior can influence those choices, but not make them for anyone.

That influence we have is the dragging.  It is not literal dragging.  Heaven is not a place that we can get to physically.  We are dragging people spiritually to heaven through proclaiming the Truth in love, and the Holy Spirit works through that.

[Helen]

'dragging' indicates against someone's will.  Not going to happen.  God gave us each the freedom to choose for Him or against Him.

[Catholica]

'dragging' indicates against someone's will.  Not going to happen.  God gave us each the freedom to choose for Him or against Him.

Interpret it however you want.  Whether you call it dragging or not, you are either influencing people to go to heaven or influencing them on their way to hell.

Perhaps you are implying that people naturally, in their wills, are on their way to heaven? It is not so.  People naturally have a fallen will that leads them on the way to sin and destruction. No, The Holy Spirit flows through faithful people to change their fallen wills and influence them toward the good and therefore toward heaven.

Why argue about semantics?  The Catholic Church has always defended the reality of free will as well.

[Catholica]

Catholica,  was the secular media also skewing about the incredible number of pedophiles in the RC priesthood?  That seemed to be connected with the non-dogma of celibacy....

Helen you might be interested in this article and the comments below. 

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/09/26/billy-grahams-grandson-evangelicals-worse-catholic-church-sex-abuse/

[Helen]

It's getting pretty awful all around, catholica.  Come soon, Lord Jesus.

[Catholica]

It's getting pretty awful all around, catholica.  Come soon, Lord Jesus.

Agreed, completely.