Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Hobie]

The authority of the Pope is not from scripture, but can be shown to be from another origin and authority.The College of Cardinals, with the Pope given authority at its head, is just the counterpart of the Pagan College of Pontiffs, with its "Pontifex Maximus," or "Sovereign Pontiff," which had existed in Rome from the earlier times before Christianity, and which is known to have been framed on the model of the grand original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon.

The College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) came from the ancient religion of the original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon, which was picked up and was then established in ancient Rome and the Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff") again established as the high priest of the pagan religion. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion as it had been in Babylon.

One of the things history show about the ascendancy of the papacy is that the church of Rome promoted the pope as the "Pontifex Maximus" or, Supreme Pontiff. The term or title Pontifex Maximus is mentioned numerous times by the early church fathers including Tertullian, but it was not applied to a Christian bishop. The early church fathers say that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom", the high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. The Pontifex Maximus was an imperial office, usually held by the Emperor himself, which made him one the "chief priest" of the Roman "state cult", so he held religious as well as state authority in his hands.

In 63 B.C., Julius Caesar had himself elected Supreme Pontiff and became emperor of Rome and in doing so, vested the office of Roman emperor with the priestly powers and functions of the Babylonian Pontiff. Augustus as it was to his advantage, kept the tradition of the combined offices, and the title Pontifex Maximus became used by the Roman Caesars. You can easily find this illustrated on a Roman coin depicting the image of Augustus Caesar with his title "Pont. Max.," which is an abbreviation of Pontifex Maximus. It is well known that the Emperor Domitian required himself to be addressed as dominus et deus ["Lord and God"].  The Roman title "Pontifex Maximus" was rendered in Greek inscriptions and literature of the time as "ἀρχιερεύς". literally, "high priest or by a more literal translation and order of words as "ἀρχιερεὺς μέγιστος", literally, "greatest high priest".

So we see how the Roman emperors, like the Babylonian emperors, now served as priests of ancient Babylonian system of worship, and bore the title Pontifex Maximus. The emperor Constantine, although he claimed to have been converted to Christianity, remained the pagan high priest the Supreme Pontiff, paid homage to the sun god on the official coinage and sought the support of the pagan masses and aristocracy of Rome. It was not until the Empire split in two, with the Western Empire going to emperor Gratian in 360 AD, that the emperor  was persuaded to give up the position of the pagan high priest and return it to the bishop of Rome who was given the title Pontifex Maximus. Thus the title Pontifex Maximus can really be traced  all the way to Babylon and its system of worship.

The Pope now pretends to have authority or believers and be the successor of Peter, to whom they say that Christ exclusively committed the keys of the kingdom of heaven. But here is the important fact that, till the Pope was invested with the title,  no such claim to pre-eminence, or anything approaching to it, was ever publicly made on his part, on the ground of his being the possessor of the keys bestowed on Peter. But there was in ancient pagan religion a connection, which for a thousand years had had attached to a belief the power of the keys of Janus and Cybele.

We see in the second century before the Christian era that the worship of Cybele, was introduced into Rome; but the same goddess, under the name of Cardea, with the "power of the key," was worshipped in Rome, along with Janus, ages before in ancient times. For the first three centuries, the Roman Catholic claim for authority was founded simply on the dignity of their see, as being that of the imperial city, the capital of the Roman world. When, however, the seat of empire was removed to the East, and Constantinople threatened to eclipse Rome, some new origin or tradition for maintaining the power and authority of the Bishop of Rome had to be found. That was created, when, about 378, the Pope fell heir to the keys that were the symbols of two well-known Pagan divinities at Rome. Janus bore a key, and Cybele bore a key; and these are the two keys that the Pope emblazons on his arms as the ensigns of his spiritual authority.

How the Pope came to be regarded as wielding the power of these keys took some time but that he did, in the popular view of church tradition, become entitled to that power at the period is certain. Now, when in the estimation of the Pagans, he came to occupy the place of the representatives of Janus and Cybele, and therefore to be entitled to bear their keys, the Pope saw that if he could only get it believed among the Christians that Peter alone had the power of the keys, and that he was Peter's successor, then the sight of these keys would keep up the delusion, and thus the power as the Bishop of Rome and apostolic authority would be more firmly established than ever. So it took time but by 378 the Bishop of Rome raised himself to the position which gave him, in Pagan estimation, the power of the keys of ancient religions. Then by 432, he laid claim to the possession of Peter's keys to esteem himself by Christians.

Now one interesting fact to note was that the Pontifex Maximus or Supreme Pontiff of the ancient pagan sun worship, bore the Chaldean title peter or 'interpreter'. the interpreter of the mysteries. So we see the opportunity to "Christlanize" the office of Pontifex Maximus that the bishop of Rome now held, by associating the "Peter" or "Grand Interpreter of Rome", with Peter the apostle. But to do so, it was necessary to teach that Peter had been in Rome. Thus the stories about Peter being the first bishop of Rome, unknown and unheard of in the early church and earlier times, began to surface and be voiced.  That Peter the apostle was ever Bishop of Rome has been proved again and again to be a falsehood and nothing but fable.

However we can see that before the Christian era, there was a "Peter" at Rome, who occupied the highest place in the Pagan priesthood. The priest who explained the Mysteries to the initiated was sometimes called by a Greek term, the Hierophant; but in primitive Chaldee, the real language of the Mysteries, his title, as pronounced without the points, was "Peter" i.e., "the interpreter." As the revealer of that which was hidden, nothing was more natural than that, while opening up the esoteric doctrine of the Mysteries, he should be decorated with the keys of the two divinities whose mysteries he unfolded. So the connection to the name of the real apostle Peter and the reason.

Thus we may see how the keys of Janus and Cybele would come to be known as the keys of Peter, the "interpreter" of the pagan Mysteries, and we see the real origin of the authority of the Pope, and it wasn't from scripture.

[DaveW]

Hobie hobie hobie .....

Why are you wasting your time on something you can do absolutely nothing about? Nor are you being very successful in convincing others to your way of thinking.

There are a lot more important things to be concerned about.   Like getting the gospel out to the Jews.

[Catholica]

The successors of Peter get their authority from the seat of authority which Jesus gave to Peter through presenting him with the keys to the kingdom.  Just as in ancient Judaism, Jesus recognized the "chair of Moses" as one of authority, so he created the "chair of Peter".  That is the symbolism of the keys, which is one of authority.

[Mog19]

None of the disciples were left "IN CHARGE" of the Church. JESUS was and is and always will be, HEAD of the church!!!!  HE IS IN CHARGE!!!! 

The pope is not the head of the church. Jesus is.  The pope gets way too much praise and has way to much glory given him. It is not his to have. Weather it be his own doing or people getting side-tracked, is beside the point. 

Slowly but surely he, the pope, is falling away from Gods teaching, look in the news on what he says of things now!!!   

If he is to HELP TO GUIDE people to Christ, then he needs to get back to what our mighty Lord says on things...

[BlackSepulcher]

None of the disciples were left "IN CHARGE" of the Church.

An apostle is first and foremost an ambassador, if you understand the role of an ambassador, you should understand that's precisely what they were- in charge of the Church.

Christianity is the religion of the apostles, and Protestants like to forget that, ironically, even when looking upon their epistles. Catholicism simply honors that truth, one does not simply assume their writings and not their traditions.

[Hobie]

The successors of Peter get their authority from the seat of authority which Jesus gave to Peter through presenting him with the keys to the kingdom.  Just as in ancient Judaism, Jesus recognized the "chair of Moses" as one of authority, so he created the "chair of Peter".  That is the symbolism of the keys, which is one of authority.

If this was so, then why didn't the bishop of Rome declare it from the beginning. Because it never existed, the false idea that Peter came to Rome and passed on authority to the bishop of Rome was not brought up till much later when they needed cover for the exaltation of one bishop over the other bishops. But by uniting the pagan keys with a name they were familiar with, then it makes perfect sense, they could get the pagans to support it and then only had to feed the story to Christians to build up the bishop of Rome. But they had to use the name of Peter as cover to accomplish this, and they did this with full knowledge of the lie they were perpetuating....

[Hobie]

According to Roman Catholicism, these keys represent all authority in heaven and in Earth, and as the "rightful possessor" through the passing of those keys, has all authority.

Well lets look at a description of who Janus was. Janus was the Roman god of gateways and beginnings, often depicted as having two faces looking in opposite directions. The month of January is named for him. His two faces (originally, one was always bearded, one clean-shaven; later both bearded) originally represented the sun and the moon. He was usually depicted with a key and about 378, the Pope fell heir to the keys that were the symbols of two well-known Pagan divinities at Rome. Janus bore a key, and Cybele bore a key; and these are the two keys that the Pope emblazons on his arms as the ensigns of his spiritual authority. So it was at this time that began the belief about the bishop of Rome holding the power of the keys, thus making him Pontiff. What was this power of the keys? It was these two gods (Janus and Cybele) that had the power of heaven and earth.

The ancient pagan Roman priesthood (before the birth of Jesus Christ) had a sovereign pontiff who held the keys. Cybele was the goddess of nature, fertility, and of fortifications, who was worshipped in Rome as the Great Mother of the Gods. She bore a key like Janus, which opened the gates of the invisible world.The goddess Cybele was also worshipped as Cardea, and the college of Cardinals was named for her. In Greek mythology Cybele holds the key to Earth, shutting her up in winter and opening her again in the spring. Similarly, Janus opens the door of the sky and releases the dawn. The term Cardinal is derived from Cardo, a hinge. Janus, whose key the Pope bears, was the god of doors and hinges...It was only in the second century before the Christian era that the worship of Cybele under that name, was introduced to Rome; but the same goddess, under the name of Cardea, with the "power of the key," was worshipped in Rome, along with Janus, ages before.

Here is a article that is even clearer on the issue...

"..The reader will now be prepared to understand how it is that the Pope's Grand Council of State, which assists him in the government of the Church, comes to be called the College of Cardinals. The term Cardinal is derived from Cardo, a hinge. Janus, * whose key the Pope bears, was the god of doors and hinges, and was called Patulcius, and Culsius "the opener and the shutter." * This had a blasphemous meaning, for he was worshipped at Rome as the grand mediator. Whatever important business was in hand, whatever deity was to be invoked, an invocation first of all must be addressed to Janus, who was recognised as the "God of gods," * in whose mysterious divinity the characters of father and son were combined, * and without that no prayer could be heard--the "door of heaven" could not be opened. * It was this same god whose worship prevailed so exceedingly in Asia Minor at the time when our Lord sent, by his servant John, the seven Apocalyptic message to the churches established in that region. And, therefore, in one of these messages we find Him tacitly rebuking the profane ascription of His own peculiar dignity to that divinity, and asserting His exclusive claim to the prerogative usually attributed to His rival. Thus, Rev. iii.7: "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth." Now, to this Janus, as Mediator, worshipped in Asia Minor, and equally, from very early times, in Rome, belonged the government of the world; and, "all power in heaven, in earth, and the sea," according to Pagan ideas, was vested in him. * In this character he was said to have "jus vertendi cardinis"--the "power of turning the hinge"--of opening the doors of heaven, or of opening or shutting the gates of peace or war upon earth. The Pope, therefore, when he set up as the High-priest of Janus, assumed also the "jus vertendi cardinis," "the power of turning the hinge,"--of opening and shutting in the blasphemous Pagan sense. Slowly and cautiously at first was this power asserted; but the foundation being laid, steadily, century after century, was the grand superstructure of priestly power erected upon it. The Pagans, who saw what strides, under Papal directions, Christianity, as professed in Rome, was making towards Paganism, were more than content to recognise the Pope as possessing this power; they gladly encouraged him to rise, step by step, to the full height of the blasphemous pretensions befitting the representative of Janus..."
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/2bab029.htm


"The very apostolic designation, Peter, is from the Mysteries. The hierophant or supreme pontiff bore the Chaldean title peter, or interpreter. The names Phtah, Peth'r, the residence of Balaam, Patara, and Patras, the names of oracles-cities, pateres or pateras and, perhaps, Buddha, all come from the same root ... No apostle Peter was ever at Rome; but the Pope, seizing the scepter of the Pontifex Maximus, the keys of Janus and Kubelé, and adorning his Christian head with the cap of the Magna Mater, copied from that of the tiara of Brahmâtma, the Supreme Pontiff of the Initiates of old India, became the successor of the Pagan high priest, the real Peter-Roma, or Petroma (the tiara of the Pope is also a perfect copy of that of the Dalai-Lama of Thibet)" (Isis Unveiled, Blavatsky, p. 30). http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2149480/pg1

Furthermore, The Catholic Encyclopedia confirms that the term Cardinal is derived from the Latin word for hinge as does a book sponsored by the Pontifical Administration:

It became the usual designation of every priest belonging to a central or episcopal church, an ecclesiastical cardo (Lat. for hinge)...(SÄGMÜLLER. J.B. Transcribed by WG Kofron. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume III. Copyright © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company. Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by Kevin Knight. Nihil Obstat, November 1, 1908. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York)....  later called cardinals (hinges of the organization) (Lopes A. The Popes: The lives of the pontiffs through 2000 years of history. Futura Edizoni, Roma, 1997, pp. 1,2).
http://www.cogwriter.com/peterkeys.htm

The fact is that Peter never went to Rome, never wore a crown, and never sat on a throne. In the book Behind the Purple Curtain , by Montano, pages 26-28, we read of another deception concerning Peter:

"Eminent archeologists and historians are inclined to believe that the bronze statue of St. Peter in Rome, standing on a pedestal about four feet high near the Main Altar close by one of the four massive pillars supporting the dome, was originally the statue of Jupiter Capitolinus. It is said that Pope Leo the Great transformed it into the traditional likeness of Saint Peter." Thus, people are really paying homage to a pagan god, not the Apostle Peter!

There is more...
There are several problems with that Catholic interpretation. Perhaps the first (from a Roman Catholic perspective) is that it does not agree with the earliest traditions of the "Fathers" the Roman church. Notice the following:

Devout Catholic historian von Dollinger reminds us of the following facts:

Of all the Fathers who interpret these passages (Matthew 16:18; John 21:17), not a single one applies them to the Roman bishops as Peter's successors. How many Fathers have busied themselves with these three texts, yet not one of them who commentaries we possess--Origen, Chrysostom, Hilary, Augustine, Cyril, Theodoret, and those whose interpretations are collected in catenas--has dropped the faintest hint that the primacy of Rome is the consequence of the commission and promise to Peter!
http://www.cogwriter.com/peterkeys.htm

[gbzone]

Hobie hobie hobie .....

Why are you wasting your time on something you can do absolutely nothing about? Nor are you being very successful in convincing others to your way of thinking.

There are a lot more important things to be concerned about.   Like getting the gospel out to the Jews.

Again  while  the OP  presents  an argument  that  can be followed and if you wanted  find out the same facts yourself yo reply with  an assertion  and denial. That's  not (realy)true .

It is not wasting time to tell the truth. If  no one believes it  that neither changes the truth  nor makes the telling of it futile.

But it does man  that no one  has any excuse .

That we are in a reverse reformation   where churches that  once held to sound doctrine are slowly being   corrupted and  lean now towards Rome  or align themselves  with  her believing the deceit  that she has changed.
Then this forum proves she has not for her beleivers are still  promoting her cunningly devised fables   immaculate conceptions and the traditions of men that have  dazzled the imaginations but have blinded the minds of men to their destruction.

If you   consider that the Jews themselves will  be  deceived also  it is a timely warning . For they still think that the roman church   is Christian and measure  biblical Christianity  by Rome.
But as 'christians'  who should know better   are allowing her to cloak  herself once again  with sheeps wool they may well be the  reason why the Jews are deceived again.

In Christ

gerald

[Blueflame]

I answer with the words of my king. "You would have no authority over me if were not given to you by above". and in the popes case i don't believe it is.

[Red Baker]

Since their whole system are nothing more or less than doctrines of devils~1 Timothy 4:1, then let every man be persuaded in his own heart where the Pope get his authority to be who he claims to be.  Use the word of God to make your decisions on such questions. 

RB

[Hobie]

None of the disciples were left "IN CHARGE" of the Church.

An apostle is first and foremost an ambassador, if you understand the role of an ambassador, you should understand that's precisely what they were- in charge of the Church.

Christianity is the religion of the apostles, and Protestants like to forget that, ironically, even when looking upon their epistles. Catholicism simply honors that truth, one does not simply assume their writings and not their traditions.

Well lets see where the origin of it lies. Its not too hard to trace as Janus (known also as Bel/Baal/Cush) which is basically connected to the worship of Mithra, or Mithras/Nimrod. It is said that after their deaths, Nimrod and his wife Semiramis were confirmed by their priests as gods and given homage as Marduk and Astarte. The name Marduk was not revealed to the masses, but his attributes were set forth under pseudonyms of various gods which we now know as Bel, Nebo, Poseidon, Jupiter, Baal, Mercury and Mars. So now we see that the  bronze statue in the Vatican which is supposedly St Peter is actually a statue of the Greek god Jupiter Capitolinus taken from the pagan Panethon Temple in Rome. The basilica of Saint Peter's now stands upon the former site of Cybele's main temple in Rome.

Now Emperor Constantine tried to bring harmony in the empire by blending the traditional sun worship of Mithras/Nimrod and Christianity, in which the priests of the ancient sun worship would be transformed into the fathers/priests of the church and the priestesses that were in the Cybele Temples became the nuns of the church. They also went a further step and slowly brought in a goddess pagans worshipped and followed, and only had to call her a name Christians would recognized instead of Cybele/Semiramis/Rhea/Isis and all the other names she was known as. 

So we start to see the origin of all of these names and what their worship really was about, and none of it is from scripture.

[Red Baker]

None of the disciples were left "IN CHARGE" of the Church.

An apostle is first and foremost an ambassador, if you understand the role of an ambassador, you should understand that's precisely what they were- in charge of the Church.

Christianity is the religion of the apostles, and Protestants like to forget that, ironically, even when looking upon their epistles. Catholicism simply honors that truth, one does not simply assume their writings and not their traditions.

Well lets see where the origin of it lies. Its not too hard to trace as Janus (known also as Bel/Baal/Cush) which is basically connected to the worship of Mithra, or Mithras/Nimrod. It is said that after their deaths, Nimrod and his wife Semiramis were confirmed by their priests as gods and given homage as Marduk and Astarte. The name Marduk was not revealed to the masses, but his attributes were set forth under pseudonyms of various gods which we now know as Bel, Nebo, Poseidon, Jupiter, Baal, Mercury and Mars. So now we see that the  bronze statue in the Vatican which is supposedly St Peter is actually a statue of the Greek god Jupiter Capitolinus taken from the pagan Panethon Temple in Rome. The basilica of Saint Peter's now stands upon the former site of Cybele's main temple in Rome.

Now Emperor Constantine tried to bring harmony in the empire by blending the traditional sun worship of Mithras/Nimrod and Christianity, in which the priests of the ancient sun worship would be transformed into the fathers/priests of the church and the priestesses that were in the Cybele Temples became the nuns of the church. They also went a further step and slowly brought in a goddess pagans worshipped and followed, and only had to call her a name Christians would recognized instead of Cybele/Semiramis/Rhea/Isis and all the other names she was known as. 

So we start to see the origin of all of these names and what their worship really was about, and none of it is from scripture.

Hobie,

Why not just stay with the sciptures and expose error and teach truth?  History at its very best, may give a little support, but all history are mixed with lies and and will never give a person very much help in exposing false religion. Both side can argue history all day long to very little profit for bible believing Christians. Our Lord always quoted scriptures, as did the prophets and apostles, and so must we.

RB

[mjrhealth]

And what does quoting scripture, should I say," bible text", do, they just quote something else that agrees with them and the circle goes round, you cannot convince people of the truth if they refuse to believe it, it is their choice to their demise. If Jesus cant convince them , what hope do we have...
In all His Love

[Hobie]

None of the disciples were left "IN CHARGE" of the Church.

An apostle is first and foremost an ambassador, if you understand the role of an ambassador, you should understand that's precisely what they were- in charge of the Church.

Christianity is the religion of the apostles, and Protestants like to forget that, ironically, even when looking upon their epistles. Catholicism simply honors that truth, one does not simply assume their writings and not their traditions.

Well lets see where the origin of it lies. Its not too hard to trace as Janus (known also as Bel/Baal/Cush) which is basically connected to the worship of Mithra, or Mithras/Nimrod. It is said that after their deaths, Nimrod and his wife Semiramis were confirmed by their priests as gods and given homage as Marduk and Astarte. The name Marduk was not revealed to the masses, but his attributes were set forth under pseudonyms of various gods which we now know as Bel, Nebo, Poseidon, Jupiter, Baal, Mercury and Mars. So now we see that the  bronze statue in the Vatican which is supposedly St Peter is actually a statue of the Greek god Jupiter Capitolinus taken from the pagan Panethon Temple in Rome. The basilica of Saint Peter's now stands upon the former site of Cybele's main temple in Rome.

Now Emperor Constantine tried to bring harmony in the empire by blending the traditional sun worship of Mithras/Nimrod and Christianity, in which the priests of the ancient sun worship would be transformed into the fathers/priests of the church and the priestesses that were in the Cybele Temples became the nuns of the church. They also went a further step and slowly brought in a goddess pagans worshipped and followed, and only had to call her a name Christians would recognized instead of Cybele/Semiramis/Rhea/Isis and all the other names she was known as. 

So we start to see the origin of all of these names and what their worship really was about, and none of it is from scripture.

Hobie,

Why not just stay with the sciptures and expose error and teach truth?  History at its very best, may give a little support, but all history are mixed with lies and and will never give a person very much help in exposing false religion. Both side can argue history all day long to very little profit for bible believing Christians. Our Lord always quoted scriptures, as did the prophets and apostles, and so must we.

RB

Well it seems almost every time I use scripture they quickly move it to the SDA area or shunt it to another section such as 'non traditional' where it is hidden away or something in that manner, or as I have discovered on my older threads, it seems it gets the majority of it deleted or cut up on my thread. I went to check my many of my older threads and they were basically shredded to pieces so they were not readable or the verses supporting the issues I was bringing up gone or distorted.

Now it could be there was some corruption on the software of the forum, but it does seem funny it only seemed to situated itself in many of my threads, just saying........

[Hobie]

And what does quoting scripture, should I say," bible text", do, they just quote something else that agrees with them and the circle goes round, you cannot convince people of the truth if they refuse to believe it, it is their choice to their demise. If Jesus cant convince them , what hope do we have...
In all His Love

Well said! The only hope is that the Holy Spirit come and convict them of the truth. We can do nothing but bring it before them, we cannot make them accept it, they must choose their path, one leading to God and the other to, well essentially damnation.

[Catholica]

Honestly, conspiracy theories are not very convincing to normal people. And for people of conviction, they are only curiosities which serve as just sad examples of the lengths people go. And thirdly, the length of those posts will lead few reasonable people to read more than one paragraph before they realize that it is a complete waste of their time.

[gbzone]

Honestly, conspiracy theories are not very convincing to normal people. And for people of conviction, they are only curiosities which serve as just sad examples of the lengths people go. And thirdly, the length of those posts will lead few reasonable people to read more than one paragraph before they realize that it is a complete waste of their time.

Those  who feed only on  milk  do not  get an appetite or a digestive system  able to  digest meat.
and those who  are fed on sound bites of religion  will hardly have an appetite   for  something longer.
and those  who rely and put their blind faith   in a priesthood  that has  no  basis  in scripture  and think that the vain repetitions of religion  are acceptable to God  are hardly likely to accept any thing that is not in conformity  their 'their' truth.

So  It is not  surprising your disdain  .

But I would draw your attention to the bible .

Where  the revival of Nehemia  had the high priest of the day  read the WHOLE of the law  to a people  who stood all day to hear it.
I would also draw your attention    to the letters  to the  ROMANS   and the Hebrews  .Not exactly  short  little  soothing words.

Conspiracies do abound.

But Rome   with the help of the Jesuits  (and there a  couple I think on this forum at least)  are masters   of disinformation  misdirection and  are  as subtle  as that servant of old  and  as much at work  in these forums  with similar questions  as he was in the garden of Eden.

So let us not be nieve to think  that the roman church  has ever changed  though it is the desire of many that she would.

But as the book or revelation shows  Babylon    is still alive and kicking   and IN the church  and her cup of iniquity is almost full.

in Christ

gerald

[gbzone]

None of the disciples were left "IN CHARGE" of the Church.

An apostle is first and foremost an ambassador, if you understand the role of an ambassador, you should understand that's precisely what they were- in charge of the Church.

Christianity is the religion of the apostles, and Protestants like to forget that, ironically, even when looking upon their epistles. Catholicism simply honors that truth, one does not simply assume their writings and not their traditions.

An Ambassador   is one who represents his country  in another country .

He does  not seek to RULE in the country to which he was sent!

In truth jesus  said he that seeks his own glory   is not righteous.But he that seeks the  glory of Him that sent him  is both righteous  and true.

How then do you   say the Pope  who all men glorify  and who comes not in the name of Christ  but the roman church  and who seeks dominion  over all the earth.
Who though thery 

[gbzone]

And what does quoting scripture, should I say," bible text", do, they just quote something else that agrees with them and the circle goes round, you cannot convince people of the truth if they refuse to believe it, it is their choice to their demise. If Jesus cant convince them , what hope do we have...
In all His Love

There is nothing  wrong with quoting text but   it si the not only the Word of truth  or body of truth  that is needed but also the Spirit of truth  also .

Though Rome  says she honours Peter they seem very reluctant to  honour the mans words who said ALL scripture is given for CORRECTION  AND REPROOF......"

iN Christ

GERALD

[BlackSepulcher]

And what does quoting scripture, should I say," bible text", do, they just quote something else that agrees with them and the circle goes round, you cannot convince people of the truth if they refuse to believe it, it is their choice to their demise. If Jesus cant convince them , what hope do we have...
In all His Love

There is nothing  wrong with quoting text but   it si the not only the Word of truth  or body of truth  that is needed but also the Spirit of truth  also .

Though Rome  says she honours Peter they seem very reluctant to  honour the mans words who said ALL scripture is given for CORRECTION  AND REPROOF......"

iN Christ

GERALD

Paul was talking about the Old Testament.

Also, non-Catholics have an errant tradition of proof-texting.

Even more, neither that or any other verse demands sola scriptura.

[winsome]

Since their whole system are nothing more or less than doctrines of devils~1 Timothy 4:1, then let every man be persuaded in his own heart where the Pope get his authority to be who he claims to be.  Use the word of God to make your decisions on such questions. 

RB

And where does 1Tim 4:1 say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are the doctrines of devils?

The answer of course it that it doesn'r

You just abuse scripture as a cloak for your personal opinions. And since scripture is inspired by the God then abusing it is an insult to God.

[Red Baker]

Since their whole system are nothing more or less than doctrines of devils~1 Timothy 4:1, then let every man be persuaded in his own heart where the Pope get his authority to be who he claims to be.  Use the word of God to make your decisions on such questions. 

RB

And where does 1Tim 4:1 say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are the doctrines of devils?

The answer of course it that it doesn'r

You just abuse scripture as a cloak for your personal opinions. And since scripture is inspired by the God then abusing it is an insult to God.

Greetings Winsome,

You said: "And where does 1Tim 4:1 say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are the doctrines of devils?"

Let us see what Paul said, and then let us judge whose religion is the Spirit expressly warring us of.  Fair enough? 

1 Timothy 4:1-3

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and  doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hyprocrisy; having their conscience seared seared with an hot iron;  forbidden to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."  

Those men and women which know the truth, can take the word of God, and know who have been deceived by seducing spirits and teach for doctrines the commandments of men.

Whose religion forbid their leaders to marry?  Does the RCC ring a bell?  Whose relgion along with others forbid certain meats on certain days?  Does the RCC ring a bell? And many, many such things!

You said: "And since scripture is inspired by the God then abusing it is an insult to God."

Winsome, you need to say this to your friend BlackSepulcher, you said these words: "Even more, neither that or any other verse demands sola scriptura."

Talking about an insult to God!!  You folks insult the God of heaven by exalting your traditions above the word of God, and make a mockery out of those sincere believers who believe in sola scriptures as the FINAL AUTHORITY IN ALL THINGS THAT PERTAINS TO LIFE AND GODLINESS!

RB

[winsome]

Since their whole system are nothing more or less than doctrines of devils~1 Timothy 4:1, then let every man be persuaded in his own heart where the Pope get his authority to be who he claims to be.  Use the word of God to make your decisions on such questions. 

RB

And where does 1Tim 4:1 say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are the doctrines of devils?

The answer of course it that it doesn'r

You just abuse scripture as a cloak for your personal opinions. And since scripture is inspired by the God then abusing it is an insult to God.

Greetings Winsome,

You said: "And where does 1Tim 4:1 say that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are the doctrines of devils?"

Let us see what Paul said, and then let us judge whose religion is the Spirit expressly warring us of.  Fair enough? 

1 Timothy 4:1-3

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and  doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hyprocrisy; having their conscience seared seared with an hot iron;  forbidden to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."  

Those men and women which know the truth, can take the word of God, and know who have been deceived by seducing spirits and teach for doctrines the commandments of men.

Whose religion forbid their leaders to marry?  Does the RCC ring a bell?  Whose relgion along with others forbid certain meats on certain days?  Does the RCC ring a bell? And many, many such things!

You said: "And since scripture is inspired by the God then abusing it is an insult to God."

Winsome, you need to say this to your friend BlackSepulcher, you said these words: "Even more, neither that or any other verse demands sola scriptura."

Talking about an insult to God!!  You folks insult the God of heaven by exalting your traditions above the word of God, and make a mockery out of those sincere believers who believe in sola scriptures as the FINAL AUTHORITY IN ALL THINGS THAT PERTAINS TO LIFE AND GODLINESS!

RB

As I said 1 Tim 4:1 does not say the doctrines of the Catholic Church are doctrines of the devil and you have not shown it does.

Neither celibacy of priests nor abstinance from meat at certain times are doctrines. They are practices.

Moreover the Catholic Church does not forbid priests to marry.

Abstinance from meat on certain occasions is form of fasting which is biblical.

We do NOT put traditions above the word of God.

[Amo]

Where does the Pope get his authority?

The Church of Rome did not receive it's power and authority from God as His authoritative voice on earth, but rather from the kings of this earth, through her adulteress relationships with the same.  The following quotes are just some of the evidence of the same.

Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new
paganism, and  the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and
universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words,
"First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the
Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the
new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism -  the apostate,
paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for
instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of
Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and
Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops,
were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal
religion was created.
Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs
in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman
Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern
despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new
financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally,
a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )
The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new
religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )


The following is from The Two Republics, by A. T. Jones.

"The Catholic Church demanded assistance in her ambitious aim to make
her power and authority absolute over all; and for Constantine's purposes
it was essential that the church should be a unit. These two considerations
combined to produce results both immediate and remote, that proved a
curse to the time then present and to ages to follow. The immediate result
was that Constantine had no sooner compassed the destruction of Licinius
in A.D. 323, than he issued an edict against the Novatians, Valentinians,
Marcionites, Paulians, Cataphrygians, and "all who devised and supported
heresies by means of private assemblies," denouncing them and their
heresies, and commanding them all to enter the Catholic Church. The edict
runs as follows: —

"Victor Constantinus Maximus Augustus, to the heretics:
Understand now, by this present statute, ye Novatians,
Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, ye who are called
Cataphrygians, and all ye who devise and support heresies by
means of your private assemblies, with what a tissue of falsehood
and vanity, with what destructive and venomous errors, your
doctrines are inseparably interwoven; so that through you the
healthy soul is stricken with disease, and the living becomes the prey
of everlasting death. Ye haters and enemies of truth and life, in
league with destruction: All your counsels are opposed to the truth,
but familiar with deeds of baseness; fit subjects for the fabulous
follies of the stage: and by these ye frame falsehoods, oppress the
innocent, and withhold the light from them that believe. Ever
trespassing under the mask of godliness, ye fill all things with
defilement: ye pierce the pure and guileless conscience with deadly
wounds, while ye withdraw, one may almost say, the very light of
day from the eyes of men. But why should I particularize, when to
speak of your criminality as it deserves, demands more time and
leisure than I can give? For so long and unmeasured is the
catalogue of your offenses, so hateful and altogether atrocious are
they, that a single day would not suffice to recount them all. And
indeed it is well to turn one's ears and eyes from such a subject, lest
by a description of each particular evil, the pure sincerity and
freshness of one's own faith be impaired. Why then do I still bear
with such abounding evil; especially since this protracted clemency
is the cause that some who were sound are become tainted with this
pestilent disease? Why not at once strike, as it were, at the root of
so great a mischief by a public manifestation of displeasure?
"Forasmuch, then, as it is no longer possible to bear with your
pernicious errors, we give warning by this present statute that none
of you henceforth presume to assemble yourselves together. We
have directed, accordingly, that you be deprived of all the houses in
which you are accustomed to hold your assemblies: and our care in
this respect extends so far as to forbid the holding of your
superstitious and senseless meetings, not in public merely, but in
any private house or place whatsoever. Let those of you, therefore,
who are desirous of embracing the true and pure religion, take the
far better course of entering the Catholic Church, and uniting with
it in holy fellowship, whereby you will be enabled to arrive at the
knowledge of the truth. In any case, the delusions of your perverted
understandings must entirely cease to mingle with and mar the
felicity of our present times; I mean the impious and wretched
doublemindedness of heretics and schismatics. For it is an object
worthy of that prosperity which we enjoy through the favor of God,
to endeavor to bring back those who in time past were living in the
hope of future blessing, from all irregularity and error, to the right
path, from darkness to light, from vanity to truth, from death to
salvation. And in order that this remedy may be applied with
effectual power, we have commanded (as before said), that you be
positively deprived of every gathering point for your superstitious
meetings; I mean all the houses of prayer (if such be worthy of the
name) which belong to heretics, and that these be made over
without delay to the Catholic Church; that any other places be
confiscated to the public service, and no facility whatever be left for
any future gathering; in order that from this day forward none of
your unlawful assemblies may presume to appear in any public or
private place. Let this edict be made public." ( Eusebius's- "Life of Constantine," book 3, chaps. 64, 65. )


Some of the penal regulations of this edict "were copied from the edicts of
Diocletian; and this method of conversion was applauded by the same
bishops who had felt the hand of oppression, and had pleaded for the rights
of humanity." ( Gibbon- "Decline and Fall," chap. 21, par. 1. )


But above all things else that Gratian did, that which redounded most to the glory of the Catholic Church was his choice of Theodosius as associate emperor. Valens was killed in a battle with the Goths, A.D. 378. A stronger hand than that of a youth of nineteen was required to hold the reins of government in the East.
In the establishment of the Catholic Church, the place of Theodosius is
second only to that of Constantine. About the beginning of the year 380 he
was baptized by the Catholic bishop of Thessalonica, and immediately
afterward he issued the following edict: —

"It is our pleasure that the nations which are governed by our
clemency and moderation, should steadfastly adhere to the religion
which was taught by St. Peter to the Romans, which faithful
tradition has preserved, and which is now professed by the pontiff
Damasus, and by Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic
holiness. According to the discipline of the apostles, and the
doctrine of the gospel, let us believe the sole deity of the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Ghost: under an equal majesty, and a pious
Trinity. We authorize the followers of this doctrine to assume the
title of Catholic Christians; and as we judge that all others are
extravagant madmen, we brand them with the infamous name of
"heretics," and declare that their conventicles shall no longer usurp
the respectable appellation of churches. Besides the condemnation
of divine justice, they must expect to suffer the severe penalties
which our authority, guided by heavenly wisdom, shall think proper
to inflict upon them." ( Gibbon's "Decline and Fall," chap. 27, par. 6. )


In the supremacy of the papacy, Justinian holds the same place as does
Constantine and Theodosius in the establishment of the Catholic Church.
"Among the titles of greatness, the name 'Pious' was most pleasing to his
ears; to promote the temporal and spiritual interests of the church was the
serious business of his life; and the duty of father of his country was often
sacrificed to that of defender of the faith."  ( Gibbon - "Decline and Fall," chap. xlvii, par. 23. )

In the year 532, Justinian issued an edict declaring his intention "to unite all
men in one faith." Whether they were Jews, Gentiles, or Christians, all who
did not within three months profess and embrace the Catholic faith, were
by the edict "declared infamous, and as such excluded from all
employments both civil and military; rendered incapable of leaving anything
by will; and all their estates confiscated, whether real or personal." As a
result of this cruel edict, "Great numbers were driven from their habitations
with their wives and children, stripped and naked. Others betook
themselves to flight, carrying with them what they could conceal, for their
support and maintenance; but they were plundered of what little they had,
and many of them inhumanly massacred."  ( Bower - "History of the Popes," Boniface 2,
par. 2. )




THE CODE OF OUR LORD
THE MOST SACRED EMPEROR JUSTINIAN.
SECOND EDITION.

BOOK 1.


TITLE 1.
CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE
CATHOLIC FAITH AND PROVIDING THAT NO ONE
SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.
   1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.
   We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.
   (1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.
    Dated at Thessalonica, on the third of the Kalends of March, during the Consulate of Gratian, Consul for the fifth time, and Theodosius.
   2. The Same Emperors to Eutropius, Praetorian Prefect.
   Let no place be afforded to heretics for the conduct of their ceremonies, and let no occasion be offered for them to display the insanity of their obstinate minds. Let all persons know that if any privilege has been fraudulently obtained by means of any rescript whatsoever, by persons of this kind, it will not be valid. Let all bodies of heretics be prevented from holding unlawful assemblies, and let the name of the only and the greatest God be celebrated everywhere, and let the observance of the Nicene Creed, recently transmitted to Our ancestors, and firmly established by the testimony and practice of Divine Religion, always remain secure.
   (1) Moreover, he who is an adherent of the Nicene Faith, and a true believer in the Catholic religion, should be understood to be one [pg. 10] who believes that Almighty God and Christ, the son of God, are one person, God of God, Light of Light; and let no one, by rejection, dishonor the Holy Spirit, whom we expect, and have received from the Supreme Parent of all things, in whom the sentiment of a pure and undefiled faith flourishes, as well as the belief in the undivided substance of a Holy Trinity, which true believers indicate by the Greek word These things, indeed do not require further proof, and should be respected.
   (2) Let those who do not accept those doctrines cease to apply the name of true religion to their fraudulent belief; and let them be branded with their open crimes, and, having been removed from the threshhold of all churches, be utterly excluded from them, as We forbid all heretics to hold unlawful assemblies within cities. If, however, any seditious outbreak should be attempted, We order them to be driven outside the the walls of the City, with relentless violence, and We direct that all Catholic Churches, throughout the entire world, shall be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed.
   Given at Constantinople, on the fourth of the ides of January, under the Consulate of Flavius Eucharius and Flavius Syagrius.
    3. The Emperor Martian to Palladius, Praetorian Prefect.
   No one, whether he belongs to the clergy, the army, or to any other condition of men, shall, with a view to causing a tumult and giving occasion to treachery, attempt to discuss the Christian religion publicly in the presence of an assembled and listening crowd; for he commits an injury against the most reverend Synod who publicly contradicts what has once been decided and properly established; as those matters relative to the Christian faith have been settled by the priests who met at Chalcedony by Our order, and are known to be in conformity with the apostolic explanations and conclusions of the three hundred and eight Holy Fathers assembled in Nicea, and the hundred and fifty who met in this Imperial City; for the violators of this law shall not go unpunished, because they not only oppose the true faith, but they also profane its venerated mysteries by engaging in contests of this kind with Jews and Pagans. Therefore, if any person who has ventured to publicly discuss religious matters is a member of the clergy, he shall be removed from his order; if he is a member of the army, he shall be degraded; and any others who are guilty of this offence, who are freemen, shall be banished from this most Sacred City, and shall be subjected to the punishment prescribed by law according to the power of the court; and if they are slaves, they shall undergo severest penalty.
   Given at Constantinople, on the eighth of the Ides of February, under the consulship of Patricius.
   4. John, Bishop of the City of Rome, to his most Illustrious and Merciful Son Justinian.
   Among the conspicuous reasons for praising your wisdom and gentleness, Most Christian of Emperors, and one which radiates light [pg. 11]as a star, is the fact that through love of the Faith, and actuated by zeal for charity, you, learned in ecclesiastical discipline, have preserved reverence for the See of Rome, and have subjected all things to its authority, and have given it unity. The following precept was communicated to its founder, that is to say, the first of the Apostles, by the mouth of the Lord, namely: "Feed my lambs."
   This See is indeed the head of all churches, as the rules of the Fathers and the decrees of the Emperors assert, and the words of your most reverend piety testify. It is therefore claimed that what the Scriptures state, namely, "By Me Kings reign, and the Powers dispense justice;" will be accomplished in you. For there is nothing which shines with a more brilliant lustre than genuine faith when displayed by a prince, since there is nothing which prevents destruction as true religion does, for as both of them have reference to the Author of Life and Light, they disperse darkness and prevent apostasy. Wherefore, Most Glorious of Princes, the Divine Power is implored by the prayers of all to preserve your piety in this ardor for the Faith, in this devotion of your mind, and in this zeal for true religion, without failure, during your entire existence. For we believe that this is for the benefit of the Holy Churches, as it was written, "The king rules with his lips," and again, "The heart of the King is in the hand of God, and it will incline to whatever side God wishes"; that is to say, that He may confirm your empire, and maintain your kingdoms for the peace of the Church and the unity of religion; guard their authority, and preserve him in that sublime tranquillity which is so grateful to him; and no small change is granted by the Divine Power through whose agency a divided church is not afflicted by any griefs or subject to any reproaches. For it is written, "A just king, who is upon his throne, has no reason to apprehend any misfortune."
   We have received with all due respect the evidences of your serenity, through Hypatius and Demetrius, most holy men, my brothers and fellow-bishops, from whose statements we have learned that you have promulgated an Edict addressed to your faithful people, and dictated by your love of the Faith, for the purpose of overthrowing the designs of heretics, which is in accordance with the evangelical tenets, and which we have confirmed by our authority with the consent of our brethren and fellow bishops, for the reason that it is in conformity with the apostolic doctrine.

The following is the text of the letter of the Emperor Justinian, Victorious, Pious, Happy, Renowned, Triumphant, always Augustus, to John, Patriarch, and most Holy Archbishop of the fair City of Rome:
   With honor to the Apostolic See, and to your Holiness, which is, and always has been remembered in Our prayers, both now and formerly, and honoring your happiness, as is proper in the case of one who is considered as a father, We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they [pg. 12] exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and according to the doctrines of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests, We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.


One Hundred and Thirty-First New Constitution.
The Emperor Justinian to Peter, Most Glorious Imperial Praetorian Prefect.
PREFACE.
   We enact the present law with reference to ecclesiastical rules and privileges and other subjects in which holy churches and religious establishments are intrusted.
Chapter I.
   Concerning Four Holy Councils.
   Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea, that of the one hundred and fifty bishops held at Constantinople, the first one of Ephesus, where Nestorius was condemned, and the one assembled at Chalcedon, where Eutyches and Nestorius were anathematized, shall be considered as laws. We accept the dogmas of these four Councils as sacred writings, and observe their rules as legally effective.
Chapter II.
   Concerning The Precedence of Partriarchs.
   Hence, in accordance with the provisions of these Councils, We order that the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome shall hold the first rank of all the Pontiffs, but the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome, shall occupy the second place after the Holy Apostolic See of ancient Rome, which shall take precedence over all other sees.

Source: Corpus Juris Civilis (The Civil Law, the Code of Justinian), by S.P. Scott, A.M., published by the Central Trust Company, Cincinnati, copyright 1932, Volume 12 [of 17], pages 9-12, 125.

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.Rev 17:1-6 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. Rev 18:1-8 (KJV)

[BlackSepulcher]

Too long; didn't read

I debate posts, not novels, thanks.

[Helen]

Excellent research, Amo.  Read all of it, copied it onto a Word file for future reference.  Thank you.

[BlackSepulcher]

So much for actually debating theology, isn't there a rule that points and posts are supposed to be rationed to some degree?

Because one does not win anything over a discussion spamming threads. It's kind of rude, quite frankly, I'm not writing an hour long, gigantic rebuttal just to rebuke your C&P'd grandstand.

[Helen]

What amo did was cite some very credible references regarding where the pope gets his authority, which is the topic of this thread.  Of course, sometimes actual data does stop an argument, doesn't it? 

[winsome]

 Amo specialises in copy and paste of long tracts. Totally pointless and proves nothing.

[Amo]

Amo specialises in copy and paste of long tracts. Totally pointless and proves nothing.

Yes, I know, facts of history mean nothing. What really proves a point of course, is a simple, I SAID SO.

[Amo]

Excellent research, Amo.  Read all of it, copied it onto a Word file for future reference.  Thank you.

Your welcome. It's good to see that some are still interested in going beyond simple I said so, you said so debates.

[Mog19]

I have done a lot of reading about the Roman Catholic Church of late, just so that I can be clear in my own mind if I agree with it or not.    And I found I do not...

Christians love God, because He loves them. We all agree on that yes?  Good.

Now, we know that because God loves us so much that He died for our sins, we know we can trust Him.  We know God never lies. He always tells it like it is.  Do this and don't do that...  So we know that we can trust Him.
If a person TRULY believes in our mighty eternal Heavenly Father, then that person will whole heartedly follow The Father, there would be no reason to not to.

Gods word is the baseline guidance for all Christians yes?  Good...

So who gave the pope permission to change God rules and agree to homosexuality etc, just look in the news in the things being changed?

So, clearly, the pope is not taking instruction from God is he? 

Again, no one on tis earth, you, me, joe blogs down the road, ANYONE deserves the honour glory and praise (which the pope has) baring God himself.  Even Jesus didn't take credit for what He did, He too gave praise only to God.

So the pope is not getting his authority from God.

[gbzone]

In the end a child of God  must  separate themselves from the world and avoid those who will not receive the truth  and who gender strife and propagate corruption.

In Christ

gerald

[Hobie]

Excellent research, Amo.  Read all of it, copied it onto a Word file for future reference.  Thank you.

Your welcome. It's good to see that some are still interested in going beyond simple I said so, you said so debates.

Or the Pope and the church tells you, so you must accept it even if scripture does not sanction it.

[gbzone]

You  cannot exsercise   authority  without  being under  authority.

There  is a world of difference   between  POWER  and AUTHORITY.

Power  without authority  ALWAYS leads  to tyranny and oppression.

The  Religious leaders  o who  'reigned'    when Jesus  walked this earth. Had power .

But no authority save that of  sanction and approval. Which is   not true  authority.

For true authority never comes from below  (from man) But from  above.

Rome  has a great deal of power . But it is the power  of this world .

Jesus  "spoke  with authority"  not as the  Pharrasees spoke and there lies the 'rub'    for  they spoke  of one sort  and Jesus  spoke of quite  another "sort"

Authority does not come  with pomp  and glory  and self aggrandisement  and being lifted up  on the shoulders of men.

Gods authority    does  not come   from  the fact  that he is bigger  than any body else  and more powerful and could thus impose  His  'truth'  upon all.
The truth   is not a tyrant. as Jesus  so proved.
But neither  is it democratic   as he so proved also .

God is God because  He is  worthy  to be called God  and there is no one else worthy of that title .

Jesus  proved that  as well .

When  God spoke  "let there be light "  it was not just in power (which it was)   but it was also with authority .Which is why it was good!

God always  brings light   before he does any work.

Many people  carelessly ask  "what  is truth"  In the hope   that  it cannot  be answered.

But  the truth  is the light  that' shines  in the darkness  and needs  no external  scource  for its continuance.

and the truth  has  an authority  above  all .

For  there is no darkness where the light shines .

and the darkness  comprehended it not .

It was not  heaveN  then   that needed light . For there is  no sun or moon   in heaveN  for God  is the light thereof .
But it was the EARTH   that was in darkness.

Which is another reason why Gen 1:1  should  be translated  heaveN   NOT heavenS.

and it was not God  who was in darkness  For God  IS  light  and in Him there is no shadow of turning .but it was MAN  .

If then  man has  or can have  any authority .
Jesus  had authority because and ONLY  because   he was  subject to the  Father .

The  FATHER  was HIS authority   and  he said he that  seeketh the glory   of HIm that  sent him  is both rightteous and true .

But eh that cometh   in his own name   is not  righteos.
Now in that Jesus came not to do his own will  but the will of the  Father.
Then  he had also POWER  and could excercise it without  fear or hinderence of the world or the devil.

and knowing that he came  from  the father  and was going to the father  and that  all power  was given  into his hands .He exalted himself?
Demanded  that all kiss his ring  and bow  before him?

No.

He put  a towel  around him and  as a humble  servant   began to wash  the disciples feet.


in Christ 

gerald

in Christ
gerald