Idolatry?

[BlackSepulcher]

I've had about enough of this highly offensive and stupid claim that the Church is idolatrous based on 'graven images'.

Unless I am completely ignorant on basic semantics, making graven images is not IDOLATRY if it is things of YOUR OWN RELIGION.

Crucifixes, statues of saints and angels, and so on is not idolatry. In fact, it just goes to to show that much of Protestantism is filled with idiots (ironically, Luther doesn't even agree with you), because it can so easily be shown that's the truth:

One of the Commandments states that we are not to make any graven image on Earth, above or below.

The context of the Commandment is very self-evident. It means to make no idols above God.

If you do not agree with this, I offer you this proposition:
Take the crosses and stained glass down from your churches and destroy every piece of art you see. In that way, you will live up to your interpretation of it.


Voila, you've been proven wrong. Now stop attacking my religion with outrageous claims of idolatry based on such. Whether you realize it or not, you are just angry the Catholic churches expounded and defended the religion well before your time and therefore made the works of crucifixes and art. 

[HRoberson]

I've had about enough of this highly offensive and stupid claim that the Church is idolatrous based on 'graven images'.

Unless I am completely ignorant on basic semantics, making graven images is not IDOLATRY if it is things of YOUR OWN RELIGION.

Actually, the Golden Calf was said to be "your Gods who brought you up out of Egypt." Even though the people were told it was the God in the cloud and the fire, it was still considered something not desired by YHWH. It could be that this was an attempt to say that Ba'al brought them out of Egypt, but that transition isn't in the text.

Crucifixes, statues of saints and angels, and so on is not idolatry.

Well, that's right. One has to worship something, or offer it obeisance, for it to fit the idol category. Simply acknowledging that Moses was a great example for us to follow isn't idolatry, nor is showing social courtesy to your pastor.

One of the Commandments states that we are not to make any graven image on Earth, above or below.
The context of the Commandment is very self-evident. It means to make no idols above God.

....or in addition to God. Let's remember though that the Golden Calf was supposed to be YHWH, not be above or in addition to Him. And well, He didn't like it.

If you do not agree with this, I offer you this proposition:
Take the crosses and stained glass down from your churches and destroy every piece of art you see. In that way, you will live up to your interpretation of it.

Interpretation of what?

Our church doesn't have stained glass, nor art. There is one rather imposing picture in the lobby but nobody kisses it, and I'm not sure it actually qualifies as art. Then there is an empty cross behind the pulpit. It's safely out of the way so no one would accidentally kiss it either.

Voila, you've been proven wrong.

About what?

Now stop attacking my religion with outrageous claims of idolatry based on such. Whether you realize it or not, you are just angry the Catholic churches expounded and defended the religion well before your time and therefore made the works of crucifixes and art. 

I don't feel angry. In fact, you seem to be the angry one here.

[BlackSepulcher]

They sacrificed their jewelry to make a golden calf, begging for other gods because they thought something had befallen Moses. They were dancing around naked in some pagan ritual very different from kosher penance.

That is what idolatry is, I don't see how kissing crucifixes has any parallel whatsoever.


And yes, I am angry that Catholicism is so poorly portrayed by others. It gets to a point where one should just be ashamed of bearing false witness to that extent, it's extraordinary in and of itself that these things can even be accepted as true by so many.   

[Helen]

In John 8, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees.  In verse 24, He states:  "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

A quick note first:  the [who I claim to be] and phrases like it in various translations was put in because what Jesus said was "ego eimi" -- which translates into "I am I am."  He was claiming to be the I AM who spoke to Moses in the burning bush.  That's just a side note here...

The point is, however, that Jesus said all we have to do is believe that He is God.  It's simple, it's clear, it's real.  The 'believe' does not mean intellectual acknowledgement -- it means putting your life in His hands, your total trust in Him.

There is no church involved, no Mary to pray to, no rites to perform. 

The early church, before Constantine got involved, NEVER had any statues or icons or anything like that.  No graven images of any kind.  They considered that pagan and idolatrous. 

What changed?

[HRoberson]

They sacrificed their jewelry to make a golden calf, begging for other gods because they thought something had befallen Moses. They were dancing around naked in some pagan ritual very different from kosher penance.

My point was that they were having a festival to YHWH. Yeah, they messed that up too, but whatever they were doing, they were doing it for YHWH.

That is what idolatry is, I don't see how kissing crucifixes has any parallel whatsoever.

Because some people don't understand the point of kissing a statue in a reverent manner unless it is to offer reverence to the statue.

And yes, I am angry that Catholicism is so poorly portrayed by others. It gets to a point where one should just be ashamed of bearing false witness to that extent, it's extraordinary in and of itself that these things can even be accepted as true by so many.

In some cases (many cases?), Catholicism has provided sufficient fodder for the accusations. Whether those accusations should be offered as broad-brush as they are is another question.

If you were to enter a Buddhist temple and see folks prostrating themselves before the Buddha, offering it gifts, and whatnot, would you think they were worshiping the statue? Is the first thing that comes to mind, that "No, what they're doing is simply remembering the boy who escaped the castle and all the good things he had to say?"

Protestants react the same way. You bow, you prostrate, you light candles, you kiss, you pray to(ward) the statue and icon. You drag yourself across cobblestones, up stairs, and end up praying to something Less-Than-God. Certainly looks like worship, doesn't it?

[AVZ]

They sacrificed their jewelry to make a golden calf, begging for other gods because they thought something had befallen Moses. They were dancing around naked in some pagan ritual very different from kosher penance.

That is what idolatry is, I don't see how kissing crucifixes has any parallel whatsoever.


And yes, I am angry that Catholicism is so poorly portrayed by others. It gets to a point where one should just be ashamed of bearing false witness to that extent, it's extraordinary in and of itself that these things can even be accepted as true by so many.   

Blacksep,

It really doesn't matter what you think is idolatry or what is not.
Making a graven image in itself is not wrong. There is nothing wrong with making a drawing of a person, or a statue.
It is the second part of the command that spells out to us what we are not supposed to do with those graven images.

And it is actually very simple.
The second part of the command states:

Exodus 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It is the bowing down part that is violated in the Catholic Church.
Be very clear about this, the command is an "or" situation and not an "and" situation.
We shall not bow down OR serve. Both are wrong.

The Catholic defense is that it is an "and" situation.
Like "We don't serve Mary, so it is OK"
That is not what the command says. We are neither to bow or to serve. And Catholics clearly bow down to statues.

Another part is that God sovereign. We cannot bow down to statues so we are clear to the outside world who it is we serve and worship.
All through the Bible God wants the gentiles to be very clear that there is only one God, the God of Israel.
The practices of the CC have completely destroyed this image of God.

Most of the gentiles for example thing that the Trinity exists out of God, Jesus and Mary.
This is the product of the false teaching in the CC, and it is an abomination in the eyes of God.

Now you can come up with thousand excuses, but what the RCC has made Mary and the saints to be is totally unbiblical.
Especially the worship of Mary has taken proportions that exceed the worship of the Trinity.
The numerous titles and properties bestowed on her are utterly rejectable and have elevated her to abominational levels.

In the eyes of the RCC, Mary has become such an integral part, that she can no longer be removed from the worship as a whole.
And the fact that she MUST be a part of the whole process of redemption and salvation shows us that she is worshipped as an idol.
It is the purest idolatry in all its forms and perceptions.

[AVZ]

Oh, before I forget.

The whole Mary worship of course is not a Biblical practice.
There is not a single shred of evidence in the whole Bible that Mary should be worshipped, or even deserves some kind of worship.

The basis of the idolatry of Mary rests for the full 100% in extra-biblical theories and documentation.

[chosenone]

I've had about enough of this highly offensive and stupid claim that the Church is idolatrous based on 'graven images'.

Unless I am completely ignorant on basic semantics, making graven images is not IDOLATRY if it is things of YOUR OWN RELIGION.

Crucifixes, statues of saints and angels, and so on is not idolatry. In fact, it just goes to to show that much of Protestantism is filled with idiots (ironically, Luther doesn't even agree with you), because it can so easily be shown that's the truth:

One of the Commandments states that we are not to make any graven image on Earth, above or below.

The context of the Commandment is very self-evident. It means to make no idols above God.

If you do not agree with this, I offer you this proposition:
Take the crosses and stained glass down from your churches and destroy every piece of art you see. In that way, you will live up to your interpretation of it.


Voila, you've been proven wrong. Now stop attacking my religion with outrageous claims of idolatry based on such. Whether you realize it or not, you are just angry the Catholic churches expounded and defended the religion well before your time and therefore made the works of crucifixes and art. 

Its quite ridiculous to say that anyone who points our errors on your faith is jealous. What is there to be jealous about? When you have Jesus you have all you need, you don't need a religious set of doctrines that aren't even Biblical. Jesus came to set us free not weigh us down with more man made dogma or rules and regulations.

[Red Baker]

Oh, before I forget.

The whole Mary worship of course is not a Biblical practice.
There is not a single shred of evidence in the whole Bible that Mary should be worshipped, or even deserves some kind of worship.

The basis of the idolatry of Mary rests for the full 100% in extra-biblical theories and documentation.

Greeitngs AVZ,

Thank you for you very good post, well thought out, and written in the spirit of godliness, and for sure, truth.

RB

[BlackSepulcher]

In John 8, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees.  In verse 24, He states:  "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

A quick note first:  the [who I claim to be] and phrases like it in various translations was put in because what Jesus said was "ego eimi" -- which translates into "I am I am."  He was claiming to be the I AM who spoke to Moses in the burning bush.  That's just a side note here...

The point is, however, that Jesus said all we have to do is believe that He is God.  It's simple, it's clear, it's real.  The 'believe' does not mean intellectual acknowledgement -- it means putting your life in His hands, your total trust in Him.

There is no church involved, no Mary to pray to, no rites to perform. 

The early church, before Constantine got involved, NEVER had any statues or icons or anything like that.  No graven images of any kind.  They considered that pagan and idolatrous. 

What changed?

What changed is pretty simple- Christianity became legal. You don't see much evidence of Christianity in the first few centuries because anyone caught practicing it was put to death. 

Government and religion were so intrinsically related that Christianity was actually considered treason. Of course one can expect that there would be no physical appeal.

Still didn't stop Mary from showing up in paintings and pottery though. Obviously, it wasn't *idolatrous* to the early Christians, either.

[BlackSepulcher]

Its quite ridiculous to say that anyone who points our errors on your faith is jealous. What is there to be jealous about? When you have Jesus you have all you need, you don't need a religious set of doctrines that aren't even Biblical. Jesus came to set us free not weigh us down with more man made dogma or rules and regulations.

It's quite ridiculous to keep trying to tell Catholics what they do and do not do. We do not commit idolatry, we do not 'worship Mary', and if it isn't obvious enough- we do not commit to solo scriptura. 

The Bible doesn't propose what is and isn't 'Biblical'. The word in and of itself is a reproof of your own 'essentials', it is a criticism that can only really exist among those who hold to such.

And you say that Jesus doesn't weigh us down with 'man made dogma' or 'rules and regulations', but Protestantism seems to have the most limited and constrained tenets of belief in Christendom.

Maybe 'jealousy' isn't the right word, though it is very reminiscent to the actions of non-Catholics. Catholicism boasts orthodoxy, and so the Protestant churches perform a grandstand- "we don't need statues and rites, we are on holy principles".
And so the mundane imagery of your churches are meant to pretty much 'one up' Catholics, which has turned in these latter times as a rejection of, wait for it, idolatry?

That's preposterous; it seems to me like you all just find reasons, no matter how inept they may be, to continue this age old protest against the Church.
It kills you to think that the founding Protestant churches themselves has crucifixes and such, albeit without Mary, so you all do not even entertain the thought. I've mentioned several times along these threads and it goes completely unnoticed.
To me, that is evidence enough to all I've stated thus far: it's not even about the truth, it's about throwing shoes at Catholicism for the kicks, I suppose, of being non-Catholic.

[chosenone]

Its quite ridiculous to say that anyone who points our errors on your faith is jealous. What is there to be jealous about? When you have Jesus you have all you need, you don't need a religious set of doctrines that aren't even Biblical. Jesus came to set us free not weigh us down with more man made dogma or rules and regulations.

It's quite ridiculous to keep trying to tell Catholics what they do and do not do. We do not commit idolatry, we do not 'worship Mary', and if it isn't obvious enough- we do not commit to solo scriptura. 

The Bible doesn't propose what is and isn't 'Biblical'. The word in and of itself is a reproof of your own 'essentials', it is a criticism that can only really exist among those who hold to such.

And you say that Jesus doesn't weigh us down with 'man made dogma' or 'rules and regulations', but Protestantism seems to have the most limited and constrained tenets of belief in Christendom.

Maybe 'jealousy' isn't the right word, though it is very reminiscent to the actions of non-Catholics. Catholicism boasts orthodoxy, and so the Protestant churches perform a grandstand- "we don't need statues and rites, we are on holy principles".
And so the mundane imagery of your churches are meant to pretty much 'one up' Catholics, which has turned in these latter times as a rejection of, wait for it, idolatry?

That's preposterous; it seems to me like you all just find reasons, no matter how inept they may be, to continue this age old protest against the Church.
It kills you to think that the founding Protestant churches themselves has crucifixes and such, albeit without Mary, so you all do not even entertain the thought. I've mentioned several times along these threads and it goes completely unnoticed.
To me, that is evidence enough to all I've stated thus far: it's not even about the truth, it's about throwing shoes at Catholicism for the kicks, I suppose, of being non-Catholic.

The only reason that I try and state the truth is so that maybe one day some R Catholics will see the errors that are taught and believed by your faith.
I am very sad that so many in the world are so deceived, especially when all of the errors can be refuted by a simple acceptance of what The Bible says, as opposed to what fallible men say and teach.
I never consider myself to be any particular denomination, so the Catholic non Catholic thing means nothing to me. I simply cant understand why anyone can believe the things that you do with no Biblical support. I  feel the same about JW's or Mormons of those of any other faith.

[Amo]

Idolatry aside, those who pray to Mary and the saints, speak and pray to the dead, and the dead answer and speak back. This is necromancy, which is forbidden by the bible.

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deut 18:9-12 (KJV)[color]

[Helen]

Idolatry aside, those who pray to Mary and the saints, speak and pray to the dead, and the dead answer and speak back. This is necromancy, which is forbidden by the bible.

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deut 18:9-12 (KJV)[color]

True, with the addition that it is not Mary or the saints who are answering, but demonic impersonators. 

[winsome]

Idolatry aside, those who pray to Mary and the saints, speak and pray to the dead, and the dead answer and speak back. This is necromancy, which is forbidden by the bible.

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deut 18:9-12 (KJV)

What do you mean 'Idolatry aside'!

If you are putting the thread topic aside then you a deliberately going off topic.

Why cannot you stick to a topic without throwing in all your hangups

[winsome]

Idolatry - idol-latria.

Latria is the word Catholics use for the adoration due to God alone.

Catholics do not adore images (or worship them).

Bowing is not worship. It is honouring someone.

Genesis 23:7
"Abraham rose up, and bowed down to the people of the land, to wit the children of Heth."

Was Abraham worshipping the children of Heth?

1Kings 1:16
Bathsheba bowed and did obeisance to the king, and the king said, "What do you desire?"

Was Bathsheba worshipping the king?

1 Kings 1:23
And they told the king, "Here is Nathan the prophet." And when he came in before the king, he bowed before the king, with his face to the ground.

Was Nathan the prophet woshipping the king?

1 Kings 2:19
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.
Was Solomon worshipping Bathsheba?

[winsome]

Idolatry aside, those who pray to Mary and the saints, speak and pray to the dead, and the dead answer and speak back. This is necromancy, which is forbidden by the bible.

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deut 18:9-12 (KJV)[color]

True, with the addition that it is not Mary or the saints who are answering, but demonic impersonators. 

In your personal and fallible opinion, of which you have many on this forum, never backed up by facts.

[winsome]

Its quite ridiculous to say that anyone who points our errors on your faith is jealous. What is there to be jealous about? When you have Jesus you have all you need, you don't need a religious set of doctrines that aren't even Biblical. Jesus came to set us free not weigh us down with more man made dogma or rules and regulations.

It's quite ridiculous to keep trying to tell Catholics what they do and do not do. We do not commit idolatry, we do not 'worship Mary', and if it isn't obvious enough- we do not commit to solo scriptura. 

The Bible doesn't propose what is and isn't 'Biblical'. The word in and of itself is a reproof of your own 'essentials', it is a criticism that can only really exist among those who hold to such.

And you say that Jesus doesn't weigh us down with 'man made dogma' or 'rules and regulations', but Protestantism seems to have the most limited and constrained tenets of belief in Christendom.

Maybe 'jealousy' isn't the right word, though it is very reminiscent to the actions of non-Catholics. Catholicism boasts orthodoxy, and so the Protestant churches perform a grandstand- "we don't need statues and rites, we are on holy principles".
And so the mundane imagery of your churches are meant to pretty much 'one up' Catholics, which has turned in these latter times as a rejection of, wait for it, idolatry?

That's preposterous; it seems to me like you all just find reasons, no matter how inept they may be, to continue this age old protest against the Church.
It kills you to think that the founding Protestant churches themselves has crucifixes and such, albeit without Mary, so you all do not even entertain the thought. I've mentioned several times along these threads and it goes completely unnoticed.
To me, that is evidence enough to all I've stated thus far: it's not even about the truth, it's about throwing shoes at Catholicism for the kicks, I suppose, of being non-Catholic.

The only reason that I try and state the truth is so that maybe one day some R Catholics will see the errors that are taught and believed by your faith.
I am very sad that so many in the world are so deceived, especially when all of the errors can be refuted by a simple acceptance of what The Bible says, as opposed to what fallible men say and teach.
I never consider myself to be any particular denomination, so the Catholic non Catholic thing means nothing to me. I simply cant understand why anyone can believe the things that you do with no Biblical support. I  feel the same about JW's or Mormons of those of any other faith.

The truth as you see it chosenone.

No Catholic doctrine contradics scripture and no scripture contradicts Catholic doctrine.

People may think there are conflicts but that is only according to their own personal and fallible interpretations.

[winsome]

The early church, before Constantine got involved, NEVER had any statues or icons or anything like that.  No graven images of any kind.  They considered that pagan and idolatrous. 

What changed?

Wrong. There are paintings in the catacombs that pre-date Constantine. I have a small book about some of the early fathers. There are some illustrations of wall painting from the catecombs:

Christ among the apostles - Catacombe of the Via Anapo

Figure of Christ the Saviour - Catacombs of St. Callistus (incidentally very similar to later Icons of Christ the Pancreator)

Moses causing the water to flow from the rock - Catacombs of Sts Peter and Marcellinus

& several more, one depicting baptism and one the Eucharist.

[winsome]

Oh, before I forget.

The whole Mary worship of course is not a Biblical practice.
There is not a single shred of evidence in the whole Bible that Mary should be worshipped, or even deserves some kind of worship.

The basis of the idolatry of Mary rests for the full 100% in extra-biblical theories and documentation.

Greeitngs AVZ,

Thank you for you very good post, well thought out, and written in the spirit of godliness, and for sure, truth.

RB

The post (& the previous one) is complete rubbish.

It's just the usual anti-Catholic bile.

I thought you had more discernment than that RB.

[chosenone]

Idolatry aside, those who pray to Mary and the saints, speak and pray to the dead, and the dead answer and speak back. This is necromancy, which is forbidden by the bible.

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deut 18:9-12 (KJV)[color]

True, with the addition that it is not Mary or the saints who are answering, but demonic impersonators. 

Yes and isn't that sad and also very concerning(to put it mildly).Surely quite enough reason not to do it. I knew a lady once who used to pray to her dead parents (who had been dead for about 30 years). A very bad idea, and we are forbidden to do it for very good reasons, as you are opening the door to demonic activity.

[winsome]

It kills you to think that the founding Protestant churches themselves has crucifixes and such, albeit without Mary, so you all do not even entertain the thought. I've mentioned several times along these threads and it goes completely unnoticed.
To me, that is evidence enough to all I've stated thus far: it's not even about the truth, it's about throwing shoes at Catholicism for the kicks, I suppose, of being non-Catholic.

The founding fathers of Protestantism had a high regard for Mary. But Protestants are ignorant of history.

Here are a few quotes:

Martin Luther
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know." (Cole, William J, The Works of Martin Luther, 10, p. 268.)

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 10, III, p.313)

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 4, 694)

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 24, 107.)

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 11, 319-320)

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."  (Pelikan, J, Op. Cit., Volume 51, 128-129.)

John Calvin
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God." (Calvin, J, Opera, Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Volume 45, 35.)

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." (Leeming, Bernard, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.)

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honour." (Calvin, J, Op. Cit., Volume 45, 348.)

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son." (Calvin, J, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, Edinburgh: St Andrew's Press, 1972, p.32)

Ulrich Zwingli
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God." (Zwingli, U, In Evangelii Lucae, Opera Completa, Zurich, 1828-42, Volume 6, I, 639.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the Gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli, U, Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volum 1, 424.)

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (Stakemeier, E, in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K (ed), Rome, 1962, p.456.)

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." ." (Stakemeier, E, in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K (ed), Rome, 1962, p.456.)


"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother." ." (Stakemeier, E, in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K (ed), Rome, 1962, p.456.)


"The more the honour and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honour given to Mary should grow." (Zwingli, U, Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428..)

All quotations and references from http://romanchristendom.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/rorate-caeli.html.

[Amo]

Idolatry aside, those who pray to Mary and the saints, speak and pray to the dead, and the dead answer and speak back. This is necromancy, which is forbidden by the bible.

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deut 18:9-12 (KJV)

What do you mean 'Idolatry aside'!

If you are putting the thread topic aside then you a deliberately going off topic.

Why cannot you stick to a topic without throwing in all your hangups

Oh, my bad. Here are some reasons many equate Roman Catholic Mary veneration with idolatry -

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIWCR0hSt3cAaHn7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTEwdDhhZmlvBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzc2?p=Mary+shrines&vid=94183713e3bd4d1a5610199a7df6153c&l=4%3A04&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4914470277221320%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQthVH-jRoyw&tit=Our+Lady+of+Fatima+procession%2C+Blue+Army+Shrine&c=15&sigr=11at89t5o&age=0&b=61&fr=moz35&tt=b

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqICeSUhSXF8APLL7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTEwNGsxYjVpBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzk2?p=Mary+shrines&vid=c014325020aaf157a2b1d51394f17b6e&l=3%3A50&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4609372946500567%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBlx8N0qbPNM&tit=Assumption+of+Blessed+Virgin+Mary+%2CSkaro+Shrine%2CALberta&c=5&sigr=11a243l5t&age=0&b=91&fr=moz35&tt=b

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqICeSUhSXF8ARrL7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTExazVtZnJqBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzEwNg--?p=Mary+shrines&vid=a743c79feb00650bcde3923ae76726f8&l=5%3A10&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.5060417524861425%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyAD0RBcRHqk&tit=Consecration+of+Ireland&c=15&sigr=11am9k3kc&age=0&b=91&fr=moz35&tt=b

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIPiSkhSwwgAoG77w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTExa3RwMTUxBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzEzOQ--?p=Mary+shrines&vid=4a5b970d580f6e48640ef7417fa1fcf1&l=2%3A00&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4877464798626823%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnQvsNi8KIbc&tit=Vol+6%3A+Mary+Mother+of+Our+Century+-+JPII+at+Marian+Shrines&c=18&sigr=11anumk31&age=0&b=121&fr=moz35&tt=b

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIPiSkhSwwgApm77w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTExN3BldWIyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzE0NQ--?p=Mary+shrines&vid=bfd4eb8a2c10df8b5c37ad6eb3cef4a3&l=1%3A02&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4787249021518889%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQoveQxuLeBE&tit=%26quot%3BHoly+Mary..Mother+of+God!%26quot%3B....+Shrine+of+Our+Lady+of+Fatima&c=24&sigr=11aql5nl7&age=0&b=121&fr=moz35&tt=b

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIKGTEhSkn4AcHP7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTExMTM1YnBhBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzE2NA--?p=Mary+shrines&vid=792872f61b842be85ef5cf63d7223283&l=1%3A56&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4995645097969048%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D7xNUkYL1_Po&tit=The+story+of+the+apparitions+in+Lourdes&c=13&sigr=11aag0dl2&age=0&b=151&fr=moz35&tt=b

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIKGTEhSkn4Ac3P7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTExNHFlb282BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzE2Nw--?p=Mary+shrines&vid=dd98cc989a642ddbd249fbf80e3b3637&l=1%3A39&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4847945518481720%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DaSbVIP32PGU&tit=crowning+of+immaculate+heart+of+mary&c=16&sigr=11a711sg2&age=0&b=151&fr=moz35&tt=b

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIKGTEhSkn4AdHP7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTExc29zN2RvBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE1MARncG9zAzE2OA--?p=Mary+shrines&vid=075bfd44cc648fe49953d4cea60dfad5&l=6%3A28&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4507079722730974%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DijmqnqadLzM&tit=A+must+see+Marian+apparitions+You+Tube+music+video&c=17&sigr=11a8ch8uq&age=0&b=151&fr=moz35&tt=b

[chosenone]

It kills you to think that the founding Protestant churches themselves has crucifixes and such, albeit without Mary, so you all do not even entertain the thought. I've mentioned several times along these threads and it goes completely unnoticed.
To me, that is evidence enough to all I've stated thus far: it's not even about the truth, it's about throwing shoes at Catholicism for the kicks, I suppose, of being non-Catholic.

The founding fathers of Protestantism had a high regard for Mary. But Protestants are ignorant of history.

Here are a few quotes:

Martin Luther
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know." (Cole, William J, The Works of Martin Luther, 10, p. 268.)

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 10, III, p.313)

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 4, 694)

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 24, 107.)

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." (Pelikan, J (ed), The Works of Martin Luther, Concordia: St. Louis, volume 11, 319-320)

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."  (Pelikan, J, Op. Cit., Volume 51, 128-129.)

John Calvin
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God." (Calvin, J, Opera, Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, Volume 45, 35.)

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." (Leeming, Bernard, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.)

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honour." (Calvin, J, Op. Cit., Volume 45, 348.)

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son." (Calvin, J, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, Edinburgh: St Andrew's Press, 1972, p.32)

Ulrich Zwingli
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God." (Zwingli, U, In Evangelii Lucae, Opera Completa, Zurich, 1828-42, Volume 6, I, 639.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the Gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli, U, Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volum 1, 424.)

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (Stakemeier, E, in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K (ed), Rome, 1962, p.456.)

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." ." (Stakemeier, E, in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K (ed), Rome, 1962, p.456.)


"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother." ." (Stakemeier, E, in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K (ed), Rome, 1962, p.456.)


"The more the honour and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honour given to Mary should grow." (Zwingli, U, Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428..)

All quotations and references from www.romanchristendom.blogspot.com, though the page does not seem to be available now as blog pages disappear.

Having a high regard for someone isn't praying to them, worshipping them, talking to them or in anyway elevating to them to a place that they were never meant to be. It is also not making them out to be what they never were, adding to the Bibles accounts of her or making up stories about her. I have no idea why anyone would do this when we have Jesus our mediator, our Saviour, Our Lord and our counsellor. He is the ONLY perfect sinless one.

[winsome]

Idolatry aside, those who pray to Mary and the saints, speak and pray to the dead, and the dead answer and speak back. This is necromancy, which is forbidden by the bible.

9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Deut 18:9-12 (KJV)

What do you mean 'Idolatry aside'!

If you are putting the thread topic aside then you a deliberately going off topic.

Why cannot you stick to a topic without throwing in all your hangups

Oh, my bad. Here are some reasons many equate Roman Catholic Mary veneration with idolatry -

You just display your ignorance

[winsome]

Now you can come up with thousand excuses, but what the RCC has made Mary and the saints to be is totally unbiblical.
Especially the worship of Mary has taken proportions that exceed the worship of the Trinity.

Catholics do NOT worship Mary

[winsome]

Having a high regard for someone isn't praying to them, worshipping them,

Catholics do NOT worship Mary

[winsome]

worship of course is not a Biblical practice.
There is not a single shred of evidence in the whole Bible that Mary should be worshipped, or even deserves some kind of worship.

Catholics do NOT worship Mary

[Helen]

Yes they do winsome.  Take a look at the words of your own Rosary -- the ones addressed to Mary.  That is worship.

[chosenone]

Yes they do winsome.  Take a look at the words of your own Rosary -- the ones addressed to Mary.  That is worship.

Its also pointless because she cant hear you. You may as well pray to the man in the moon.

[AVZ]

worship of course is not a Biblical practice.
There is not a single shred of evidence in the whole Bible that Mary should be worshipped, or even deserves some kind of worship.

Catholics do NOT worship Mary

That's what you like the rest of the world to believe, but it just so happens that we all know better.
Going on your knees for somebody, praying to her and giving her all kinds of divine titles...is worship.

The easiest way to find out if you are worshipping Mary is to follow the following steps:
- Take dictionary
- Find "worship"
- Apply definition to Catholic practice
- Learn that definition fits perfectly

[winsome]

Yes they do winsome.  Take a look at the words of your own Rosary -- the ones addressed to Mary.  That is worship.

Of course it is not worship.

[winsome]

worship of course is not a Biblical practice.
There is not a single shred of evidence in the whole Bible that Mary should be worshipped, or even deserves some kind of worship.

Catholics do NOT worship Mary

That's what you like the rest of the world to believe, but it just so happens that we all know better.
Going on your knees for somebody, praying to her and giving her all kinds of divine titles...is worship.

You don't know what you are talking about.

[Amo]

You just display your ignorance

Actually, everything displayed on the sites I provided is Roman Catholic and Roman Catholics. If I displayed ignorance, well then -

[winsome]

The big problem as I see it is that some Protestants are very arrogant.

They tell Catholics we must use their praxis in defining doctrine

They tell Catholics that they must use their definitions of words.

They tell Catholics that they must us their definition of practices (e.g. worship).

They tell Catholics that no man can be infallible (i.e the Pope) but proclaim themselves infallible because they consider their personal opinions are always right.

They are not prepared to try to understand a different culture. If it is different to their parameters is it wrong. Whatever Catholics do, if it is different to their personal practices then it must be wrong.

They make no attempt to discern what the Catholic Church teaches about doctrine and practices (they don't even understand the difference). If they can find some ignorant Catholic who says "x" or someone's granny who did "y" then it's [all] Catholics believe "x" or [all] Catholics do "y".

It reminds me of Jesus saying:
"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, 'We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.' For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon'; the Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'" (Mt 11:16-19)

There are several people here who have no interest whatsoever in trying to have a rational discussion. This forum is merely a platform for them to exhibit their bigotry.