Having trouble with Pope Francis?

[Catholica]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

[Helen]

I'm sorry, but what the Pope says or does has no bearing on me at all.  Who is upset with him and who makes excuses for him or stands behind him is something that belongs to you Roman Catholics.

[HRoberson]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

[winsome]

I'm sorry, but what the Pope says or does has no bearing on me at all.  Who is upset with him and who makes excuses for him or stands behind him is something that belongs to you Roman Catholics.

That's why Catholica has posted it in the Catholic Forum.

[Catholica]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Well, he has said some things that I think are too easily misconstrued by the media, and though I trust him when he says he is "a child of the Church" which means faithful to the Magisterium, the plain reading of some things considering atheists and "homosexuals" feel less stable than Pope Benedict's.  It has probably been good for me to look at things in a different way.  However many Catholics who have not studied as much as I may be feeling even less stable, and this podcast will help them know that Christ is the Point. 

[winsome]

I think Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air and just what the Church needs.

[Catholica]

I think Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air and just what the Church needs.

I believe in my heart that you are absolutely correct.  And more than the Church; the world!  That's what I would posit! :-)

[winsome]

I think Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air and just what the Church needs.

I believe in my heart that you are absolutely correct.  And more than the Church; the world!  That's what I would posit! :-)

My wife has just finished reading a book about him - "Pope Francis Untying the Knots" by Paul Vallely. She has read some very interesting bits out to me. I'm going to read it now.

[Catholica]

I saw this news today.

PHOTOS: Pope Francis embraces disfigured man in St. Peter's Square



Pope Francis's embrace of a man with severe facial disfigurement was the image worth a thousand words Wednesday, with the scene from St. Peter's Square soaring through social media. In the pope's prayer over the man, many saw echoes of Jesus's healing of the leper, and the outreach of St. Francis of Assisi, after whom Pope Francis is named.

Catholic News Agency has more details of their embrace:

    The man was identified as suffering from neurofibromatosis, which causes great pain and can result in paralysis, impaired vision, deafness, mental retardation, migraines and even cancer. Treatment of the condition is very complicated.

    People with this disease – which is genetic and not contagious – often face discrimination because of their appearance.

    As he carried out his typical greeting of pilgrims at the conclusion of the general audience, Pope Francis paused for several minutes to receive the sick man in his arms.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/11/06/photos-pope-francis-embraces-disfigured-man-covered-in-boils/

[HRoberson]

Interesting, for a low church Protestant. I understand from an institutional view that stupid stuff shouldn't bother you overly much.

What would be interesting to me is if the Gang of 8 recommends ordained female deacons and Francis endorses and promulgates that change.

While I understand the idea that a Pope can't change anything dealing with salvation, but even so we have enough history to realize that just about any previously presumed dogma can be finessed by the Magisterium to no longer be dogma and the current new dogma in fact, in line with what the church "has always taught."

It is all about Christ. Unfortunately, the Catholic church perceives the Pope as the Vicar and if he dares to speak ex cathdra something that is contrary to current dogmatic teaching, then the new statement must become the new dogma. He is, after all, the Vicar.

It's a nice sermon and I appreciate the intent of it but quite simply, past Popes' shenanigans, or even Israel's kings, do not rise to the levels of expressed concerns of some Catholics about this Pope. Nor do they rise to the level of ex cathedra modifications of current dogma.

[Catholica]

Kudos for actually listening to the sermon, HRoberson.

The book has been officially closed on female ordination, including ordination to the deaconate.  In the early Church there were some people called deaconesses but there is no record that they were ever ordained persons, nor is there any precedent for them being ordained.  And ordination is a salvational issue.  Francis doesn't have the power to change that, no pope has ever or will ever have that power.

Dogma cannot be changed, and I'm not sure what gives you the notion that it has, except possibly for the biased and blinded opinions of a few sedevacantists that you have come across.  Dogma cannot and has not changed.  Dogma can be built upon to formulate new theology, but the truth of those dogma cannot change and have not.  And the Pope has not in 2000 years spoken anything ex cathedra that violates previous dogma.   And the Vicar is bound by that previous dogma.  There is no overriding and contradicting old dogma with new dogma.  The Church doesn't work that way.   Dogma is held to be true and forever true.

I think that people's opinions about this pope are being manipulated by the liberal media, who wish for possibly nothing more than the overturn of the Catholic Church's long held moral standard.  They commonly wrongly translate something this pope says and then rush it to the internet, interpreted the way that they would like it to be.  There is nothing that the Pope has said that goes against Church teaching, or even suggests that anything has changed or will changed.  Yes, stuff people say or write can be spun in different ways.  But the Church's teachings are not spun.  They are well known and cannot change.  Truth doesn't change, and morality doesn't change.  Jesus didn't grant the authority to the apostles to ordain women.  Homosexual acts will never be moral.  People who are validly married can never be married again, and doing so will always be sin.  Atheists can never do anything that pleases God and as long as they remain atheists they cannot be saved.

Aside from that there are some things that can change.  Married men could be allowed to become priests in the Latin rite.  Fasting rules during lent could change.  The Liturgical year can shift around.

Anyway I am kind of starting to ramble now.  :-)

[winsome]

There is a huge amount of ignorant comment in the media.

There was a headline in a paper a few days ago something like will the Pope embarrass the Anglican Church?

The supposition was that Pope Francis is poised to make a woman a Cardinal thus jumping ahead of the Anglicans who are still fighting over ordaining women as bishops. The article even suggested a hot candidate.

Whilst it may be theoretically possible to do so it seems highly unlikely. However the article went on to suggest that might mean a woman becoming Pope. It didn't seem to cross the mind of the writer that the Pope is the Bishop of Rome and women cannot be made bishops.

[HannahT]

I'm not Catholic, but have family members that are.

Personally, I find Pope Francis refreshing myself.

His actions will mute out the liberal media's headlines no doubt.

The articles that I have read about him in the secular media had comments - in comment section - that overall positive from Catholics and non Catholics alike.

[HRoberson]

Kudos for actually listening to the sermon, HRoberson.

The book has been officially closed on female ordination, including ordination to the deaconate.  In the early Church there were some people called deaconesses but there is no record that they were ever ordained persons, nor is there any precedent for them being ordained.  And ordination is a salvational issue.  Francis doesn't have the power to change that, no pope has ever or will ever have that power.

Dogma cannot be changed, and I'm not sure what gives you the notion that it has, except possibly for the biased and blinded opinions of a few sedevacantists that you have come across.  Dogma cannot and has not changed.  Dogma can be built upon to formulate new theology, but the truth of those dogma cannot change and have not.  And the Pope has not in 2000 years spoken anything ex cathedra that violates previous dogma.   And the Vicar is bound by that previous dogma.  There is no overriding and contradicting old dogma with new dogma.  The Church doesn't work that way.   Dogma is held to be true and forever true.

I think that people's opinions about this pope are being manipulated by the liberal media, who wish for possibly nothing more than the overturn of the Catholic Church's long held moral standard.  They commonly wrongly translate something this pope says and then rush it to the internet, interpreted the way that they would like it to be.  There is nothing that the Pope has said that goes against Church teaching, or even suggests that anything has changed or will changed.  Yes, stuff people say or write can be spun in different ways.  But the Church's teachings are not spun.  They are well known and cannot change.  Truth doesn't change, and morality doesn't change.  Jesus didn't grant the authority to the apostles to ordain women.  Homosexual acts will never be moral.  People who are validly married can never be married again, and doing so will always be sin.  Atheists can never do anything that pleases God and as long as they remain atheists they cannot be saved.

Aside from that there are some things that can change.  Married men could be allowed to become priests in the Latin rite.  Fasting rules during lent could change.  The Liturgical year can shift around.

Anyway I am kind of starting to ramble now.  :-)

Yes, I know dogma can't be changed. That's why when it's changed, both the current versions and the new versions will be nuanced so that it will not have been changed.

[Catholica]

Kudos for actually listening to the sermon, HRoberson.

The book has been officially closed on female ordination, including ordination to the deaconate.  In the early Church there were some people called deaconesses but there is no record that they were ever ordained persons, nor is there any precedent for them being ordained.  And ordination is a salvational issue.  Francis doesn't have the power to change that, no pope has ever or will ever have that power.

Dogma cannot be changed, and I'm not sure what gives you the notion that it has, except possibly for the biased and blinded opinions of a few sedevacantists that you have come across.  Dogma cannot and has not changed.  Dogma can be built upon to formulate new theology, but the truth of those dogma cannot change and have not.  And the Pope has not in 2000 years spoken anything ex cathedra that violates previous dogma.   And the Vicar is bound by that previous dogma.  There is no overriding and contradicting old dogma with new dogma.  The Church doesn't work that way.   Dogma is held to be true and forever true.

I think that people's opinions about this pope are being manipulated by the liberal media, who wish for possibly nothing more than the overturn of the Catholic Church's long held moral standard.  They commonly wrongly translate something this pope says and then rush it to the internet, interpreted the way that they would like it to be.  There is nothing that the Pope has said that goes against Church teaching, or even suggests that anything has changed or will changed.  Yes, stuff people say or write can be spun in different ways.  But the Church's teachings are not spun.  They are well known and cannot change.  Truth doesn't change, and morality doesn't change.  Jesus didn't grant the authority to the apostles to ordain women.  Homosexual acts will never be moral.  People who are validly married can never be married again, and doing so will always be sin.  Atheists can never do anything that pleases God and as long as they remain atheists they cannot be saved.

Aside from that there are some things that can change.  Married men could be allowed to become priests in the Latin rite.  Fasting rules during lent could change.  The Liturgical year can shift around.

Anyway I am kind of starting to ramble now.  :-)

Yes, I know dogma can't be changed. That's why when it's changed, both the current versions and the new versions will be nuanced so that it will not have been changed.

An example would let us know that you have a basis for what you are saying.

[Paulus]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

[mclees8]

I'm sorry, but what the Pope says or does has no bearing on me at all.  Who is upset with him and who makes excuses for him or stands behind him is something that belongs to you Roman Catholics.

That's why Catholica has posted it in the Catholic Forum.

There is a catholic safe house isn't there When Catholics just want to converse with Catholics. This forum here even though it is called the Catholic forum it is more Catholic Protestant debate. One should never be surprised when None Catholics post replies

[winsome]

I'm sorry, but what the Pope says or does has no bearing on me at all.  Who is upset with him and who makes excuses for him or stands behind him is something that belongs to you Roman Catholics.

That's why Catholica has posted it in the Catholic Forum.

There is a catholic safe house isn't there When Catholics just want to converse with Catholics. This forum here even though it is called the Catholic forum it is more Catholic Protestant debate. One should never be surprised when None Catholics post replies

Regarding a post anywhere, it's a bit pointless just to post saying I'm not interested in this topic. Posting such a comment in the Catholic forum when you are not a Catholic is doubly so.

[mclees8]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

[Paulus]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Yes, I know dogma can't be changed. That's why when it's changed, both the current versions and the new versions will be nuanced so that it will not have been changed.

lol.  Have to agree.  The RCC has changed its stance many times, but it is always so very careful to re-define things in such a way that "it doesn't disagree" with the letter of what came before, even if the intent is the opposite.

[mclees8]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

[Paulus]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?

[mclees8]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

[Paulus]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

I am pleased that you assume that Pope Francis does good things and sincerely believes that he serves God .

[mclees8]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

I am pleased that you assume that Pope Francis does good things and sincerely believes that he serves God .

This does no mean I except Him for the position he thinks he serves. it is still false and worldly therefore he is not able to truly teach of the savior from his exalted position of men.

[Paulus]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

I am pleased that you assume that Pope Francis does good things and sincerely believes that he serves God .

This does no mean I except Him for the position he thinks he serves. it is still false and worldly therefore he is not able to truly teach of the savior from his exalted position of men.

[Paulus]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

I am pleased that you assume that Pope Francis does good things and sincerely believes that he serves God .

This does no mean I except Him for the position he thinks he serves. it is still false and worldly therefore he is not able to truly teach of the savior from his exalted position of men.

Does not Pope Francis , by word and deed , truly teach of our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ ?

[mclees8]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

I am pleased that you assume that Pope Francis does good things and sincerely believes that he serves God .

This does no mean I except Him for the position he thinks he serves. it is still false and worldly therefore he is not able to truly teach of the savior from his exalted position of men.

Does not Pope Francis , by word and deed , truly teach of our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ ?

He can teach about Christ but he stands on a worldly platform. Therefore the papacy says it of Christ but its heart is in the world and all that is fleshly and carnal. He is on a religious political platform which is antichrist. It is for this reason that it is the  harlot

[Paulus]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

I am pleased that you assume that Pope Francis does good things and sincerely believes that he serves God .

This does no mean I except Him for the position he thinks he serves. it is still false and worldly therefore he is not able to truly teach of the savior from his exalted position of men.

Does not Pope Francis , by word and deed , truly teach of our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ ?

He can teach about Christ but he stands on a worldly platform. Therefore the papacy says it of Christ but its heart is in the world and all that is fleshly and carnal. He is on a religious political platform which is antichrist. It is for this reason that it is the  harlot

Please give examples of how Pope Francis' heart is in the world , and is fleshly and carnal .

[winsome]

Nothing will satisfy mclees, not even the Pope adopting a first century fisherman's tunic and sandles, and dragging a fishing net along behind him would satisfy him.

[mclees8]

Some Catholics have felt scandalized by certain reports of what Pope Francis has said, or done.  It is my opinion that much of this is caused by media ignorance of the Catholic faith and/or bias against the Catholic Church and her teachings (and bias for a liberal agenda).  However there is a deeper truth behind it all, and that is that no matter how bad you perceive things to be, it is not at the end of the day about the Pope, but about Jesus and the Church, the means of salvation He created for you. 

I found this talk worth the time to listen to, and I think that it could help other Catholics like me who might be feeling at least somewhat on edge about what Pope Francis is doing.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.html

What do you find disturbing about Francis?

Pope Francis disturbs me because God is using him to disturb me and to show me how far I am from living the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .

How do you know that God is using him to disturb you. About what? Until we have developed a clear idea of what it means to be separate from the world you cannot even know what Jesus taught. How then can a teacher who is in the world and all that is of it teach you then about our Savior. If Francis knew he would rent his clothes and leave the Vatican.

Oh dear ! You don't change do you .

Can you not see goodness where there is goodness ?

Yes I can. Tell me will all people who do good things go to heaven? Is it really just about being good?

He who humbles himself shall be exalted and he who exalts be abased.

Do you think Pope Francis is a good man ?
[/quote

If you ask me does he do good things and thinks himself a good man who sincerely believes he I good and serves God. I do not know Him personally enough to make a judgment, but I could assume so. This si not about him personally being good in mans eyes but is he truly serving God  or is he serving God from mans carnal concepts.

I am pleased that you assume that Pope Francis does good things and sincerely believes that he serves God .

This does no mean I except Him for the position he thinks he serves. it is still false and worldly therefore he is not able to truly teach of the savior from his exalted position of men.

Does not Pope Francis , by word and deed , truly teach of our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ ?

He can teach about Christ but he stands on a worldly platform. Therefore the papacy says it of Christ but its heart is in the world and all that is fleshly and carnal. He is on a religious political platform which is antichrist. It is for this reason that it is the  harlot

Please give examples of how Pope Francis' heart is in the world , and is fleshly and carnal .

Guess you just are never going to  get it. This has never been about Francis being worldly.  but the whole Papal thing. It the whole big show from day one the papacy put on Royal robes and ruled as religious political monarchs. I never said one thing against him personally as being a good man. But as long as sits as popes do then he is worldly by virtue of the whole order.

[winsome]

Guess you just are never going to  get it. This has never been about Francis being worldly.  but the whole Papal thing. It the whole big show from day one the papacy put on Royal robes and ruled as religious political monarchs.

maclees this is rubbish. Many (if not most) of the early Popes were martyred or exiled by the Roman Emperors.

Here is a list of martyred Popes in the first 300 years.

    Saint Peter (c.67), traditionally martyred by crucifixion[3]
    Pope Linus (Saint) (c.67-c.76)[4][5]
    Pope Anacletus or Cletus (Saint) (c.79-c.92)[6][4]
    Pope Clement I (Saint) (c.92-c.99), thrown into sea with anchor around his neck[4]
    Pope Evaristus (c.99-c.108);[4][5] not listed in the Roman Martyrology
    Pope Alexander I (Saint) (c.106-c.119);[4][5] recognition as the martyred Saint Alexander (feast day May 3) rescinded in 1960
    Pope Sixtus I (Saint) (c.119-c.128)[4][5]
    Pope Telesphorus (Saint) (c.128-c.138)[4][7]
    Pope Hyginus (Saint) (c.138-c.142);[4] martyrdom dubious[8]
    Pope Pius I (Saint) (c.142-c.154), martyred by the sword;[9] claim of martyrdom removed from the 1969 General Roman Calendar[10]
    Pope Anicetus (Saint) (155-166), traditionally martyred.[4]
    Pope Soter (Saint) (166-175), died a martyr [4]
    Pope Eleuterus (Saint) (175-189), died a martyr [4]
    Pope Victor I (Saint) 189-199, died a martyr [4]
    Pope Zephyrinus (Saint) 199-217, died a martyr [4]
    Pope Calixtus I (Saint) (217-222), died a martyr [4]
    Pope Urban I (Saint) 222-230, died a martyr [4]
    Pope Pontian (Saint) 230-235, condemned to mines in Sardinia and died on island of Tavolara[4]
    Pope Anterus (Saint) Elected 12/21/236, martyred at hands of Emperor Maximus [4]
    Pope Fabian (Saint) (Elected 1/10/250 and died a martyr 1/20/250 during persecution by Decius)[4]
    Pope Cornelius (Saint) (Elected March 251 and died a martyr June 253).[4]
    Pope Lucius I (Saint) Elected 6/25/253 and martyred 3/5/254.[4]
    Pope Stephen I (Saint) Elected 5/12/254 and martyred 8/2/257.[4][1]
    Pope Sixtus II (Saint) (Elected 8/30/257 and martyred 8/6/258).[4]
    Pope Dionysius (Saint) Elected 7/22/259 after year of persecutions and died 12/26/268, martyred [4]
    Pope Felix I (Saint) Elected 1/5/269 and died 12/30/274, martyred [4]
    Pope Eutychian (Saint) Elected 1/4/275 and martyred 12/7/283. [4]
    Pope Caius (Saint) Elected 12/17/283 and martyred 4/22/296, but not at hands of his uncle, Diocletian [4]
    Pope Marcellinus (Saint) Elected 6/30/296 and martyred 10/25/304 during persecution of Diocletian [4]
    Pope Marcellus I (Saint) Elected 5/27/308 after 4-year vacancy and martyred 1/16/309.[4]
    Pope Eusebius (Saint) Elected 4/18/309 and martyred in Sicily 8/17/309. [4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murdered_Popes

[epiphanius]

Guess you just are never going to  get it. This has never been about Francis being worldly.  but the whole Papal thing. It the whole big show from day one the papacy put on Royal robes and ruled as religious political monarchs.

mclees this is rubbish. Many (if not most) of the early Popes were martyred or exiled by the Roman Emperors.

Winsome,

I think our brother McLees is talking about the popes who served after 754, the year in which the popes became the official rulers over a small kingdom covering approximately 1/3 of the Italian peninsula, known as the Papal States. (This papal kingdom existed for over 1000 years, until it was incorporated into the unified Kingdom of Italy in 1870.) During this time, the papacy took on many of the trappings of a secular monarchy, and even though most of these have now been abandoned (one example being the papal crown), it still appears more like a monarchy than most modern secular governments.

Protestants find the whole matter of the papacy particularly offensive, because of the fact that the present St. Peter's Basilica was built, in part, with funds from Johann Tetzel's infamous indulgence-hawking.

[winsome]

Guess you just are never going to  get it. This has never been about Francis being worldly.  but the whole Papal thing. It the whole big show from day one the papacy put on Royal robes and ruled as religious political monarchs.

mclees this is rubbish. Many (if not most) of the early Popes were martyred or exiled by the Roman Emperors.

Winsome,

I think our brother McLees is talking about the popes who served after 754, the year in which the popes became the official rulers over a small kingdom covering approximately 1/3 of the Italian peninsula, known as the Papal States. (This papal kingdom existed for over 1000 years, until it was incorporated into the unified Kingdom of Italy in 1870.) During this time, the papacy took on many of the trappings of a secular monarchy, and even though most of these have now been abandoned (one example being the papal crown), it still appears more like a monarchy than most modern secular governments.

Protestants find the whole matter of the papacy particularly offensive, because of the fact that the present St. Peter's Basilica was built, in part, with funds from Johann Tetzel's infamous indulgence-hawking.

Day one of the papacy was not 754.