How soon is "soon?"

[raggthyme13]

Yes God is infinite/eternal. But when God promises something will soon be, it is in a way that men can understand. Surely he knows how to get a point across to his creation.

Otherwise it is no promise at all. If soon (to them) really meant "no way will it happen in your lifetime" then the word really has no meaning or purpose at all in relation to the message. Might as well leave it out altogether.

[AVZ]

What always gets me is that futurists say "soon" can easily mean thousands of years per God's heavenly viewpoint... but then they turn around and say that Jesus is coming "soon" (most likely in our generation) because of the signs we see all around us.

What they forget is that the first Christians were believing the signs they were seeing meant that Christ was coming in their generation, and "soon" meant to them what we all understand it to mean... shortly!

So on one hand they deny that "soon" to the hearers meant their generation (apparently because God defines it differently than man) but on the other hand they preach the "soon" coming of the Lord using the newspaper to support their claims.

Hmmmmm... I know what they say "soon" means, but what do they really believe it means?

What always gets me is that preterists declare all the future prophesies as "allegorical".
A third of mankind will die, does not really mean a third.
Earth will be consumed by fire does not really mean what it says.
Jesus will return the same way as He left, does not really mean He will come back in bodily form.
The resurrection of the flesh is not really resurrection of the flesh.
All will see Him does not really mean "all".
See Him does not really mean "see".
etc

But when it comes to the words "soon" and "this"...they insist that it must mean exactly what it means.

This whole preterism thing simply is a "pick and choose" theory, founded on nothing but assumptions.
If Revelation has been fulfilled...we would not be here.

[LetGodBeTrue]

AVZ, it is glaringly clear from your post that you are criticizing a system you don't even understand.

In the CONTEXT of Revelation 9:18 we find that the  "third of men" involves those trapped within the city of Jerusalem during the Jewish wars with Rome!  It is NOT a third of all men throughout the world.  You CANNOT impose YOUR paradigm unto the preterist paradigm and then cry foul when things don't fit.  The "third" that preterists deny is YOUR third and NOT the biblical third in its context.  Again, the Revelation is NOT speaking of the deaths of a third of ALL of mankind but of the men within the walls of Jerusalem when the Romans rained fire upon them!

Similarly, the "earth" in the preterist paradigm and the "earth" of your paradigm are often very different things, as they are in the Bible.  Again, you are imposing YOUR understanding and YOUR preconceived ideas upon the preterist paradigm.  Disagree if you must (and I know you must), there is no lack of harmony concerning the burning of the "earth" when one, friend or foe, takes the time to truly understand the preterist position on the term "earth."  IF you took the time, you would know that preterism lays out sound arguments that the "earth" involves the precepts and elements of Judaism.  It was that which was burned and destroyed in the fires of Jerusalem in AD 70.  So for you to say, "Earth will be consumed by fire does not really mean what it says" is again imposing your understanding of earth upon preterism and then criticizing it when it doesn't fit.  When preterists contend that the Earth will not be consumed, they mean that the physical earth was not to be consumed.  The "earth" (e.g. the fundamentals of Judaism) was indeed consumed when the power of the holy people was completely shattered (Dan. 12) in AD 70.  The Bible does, indeed, mean what it says.  We must be careful to ascertain what it says and not what we want it to say.

Again, YOU come against preterism with YOUR understanding and then condemn it for not fitting YOUR concepts.  Preterists do NOT teach that Jesus did not come in like manner as He was seen leaving.  Preterists DO teach that the futurist understanding of that likeness is incorrect.  Jesus did indeed, AVZ, return in like manner as He was seen going, but it had nothing to do with His physical body.  The likeness of the manner in which He left and would return is seen in the CLOUDS!  That is the likeness.  Clouds are often depicted as the presence of God.  Furthermore, unlike futurists, preterists do not have to explain why Jesus left without trumpet sound and without EVERY EYE SEEING HIM as futurists do.  Isn't that also included in your understanding of "like manner"?  Maybe you should clean up your own backyard.

Again, a difference in understanding of a term does not justify false accusations.  I will not go into detail here, but I will say that the Bible is clear that "flesh" does not always mean the physical body. 

Now let's look at your false accusation concerning Revelation 1:7.  When preterists say that not every eye throughout all history at some specific point in time were to see Him, they are not saying that EVERY does not mean EVERY.  If your child goes to a youth group meeting and comes home and you ask "who was there?" and he replies, "everyone was there," was he saying that everyone throughout the whole world and throughout all of time was there?  Would you understand him to mean that?  Of course not!  The context determines the meaning of the term.  EVERY eye of those Jews in the LAND when Jesus came in vengeance upon them, SAW Him just as surely as their forefathers had SEEN Him come when their Temple was destroyed and they were taken off into captivity.  ALL does not always mean ALL inclusively, in fact, I would venture to say that it rarely does.  It is often restricted by the context in which it is found, as I established above.  Even in everyday life, ALL and EVERY rarely mean what futurists make them mean.  They are more often than not restricted by the context in which they are used!

SEE is the same thing.  One can SEE the results of someone's presence without actually SEEING him.  I established this when I pointed out the FACT that the OT Jews had SEEN the coming of the Lord in the destruction of their Temple.  Those in Jerusalem when the Romans laid siege upon the city and the Temple SAW the Lord in His vengeance and judgment upon THEM.

The words SOON and THIS still mean exactly what they mean when futurists today use them so confidently:  "I believe Jesus is coming SOON--maybe in THIS generation."  Really?  Again, clean up your own backyard and stop forcing the meanings of terms used by futurists upon preterism in order to find fault.

By the way, IF the Revelation were fulfilled according to YOUR understanding, we would not be here.  HOWEVER, that is NOT the preterist understanding so stop condemning it for not fitting into YOUR paradigm.

[AVZ]

AVZ, it is glaringly clear from your post that you are criticizing a system you don't even understand.

In the CONTEXT of Revelation 9:18 we find that the  "third of men" involves those trapped within the city of Jerusalem during the Jewish wars with Rome!  It is NOT a third of all men throughout the world.  You CANNOT impose YOUR paradigm unto the preterist paradigm and then cry foul when things don't fit.  The "third" that preterists deny is YOUR third and NOT the biblical third in its context.  Again, the Revelation is NOT speaking of the deaths of a third of ALL of mankind but of the men within the walls of Jerusalem when the Romans rained fire upon them!

Similarly, the "earth" in the preterist paradigm and the "earth" of your paradigm are often very different things, as they are in the Bible.  Again, you are imposing YOUR understanding and YOUR preconceived ideas upon the preterist paradigm.  Disagree if you must (and I know you must), there is no lack of harmony concerning the burning of the "earth" when one, friend or foe, takes the time to truly understand the preterist position on the term "earth."  IF you took the time, you would know that preterism lays out sound arguments that the "earth" involves the precepts and elements of Judaism.  It was that which was burned and destroyed in the fires of Jerusalem in AD 70.  So for you to say, "Earth will be consumed by fire does not really mean what it says" is again imposing your understanding of earth upon preterism and then criticizing it when it doesn't fit.  When preterists contend that the Earth will not be consumed, they mean that the physical earth was not to be consumed.  The "earth" (e.g. the fundamentals of Judaism) was indeed consumed when the power of the holy people was completely shattered (Dan. 12) in AD 70.  The Bible does, indeed, mean what it says.  We must be careful to ascertain what it says and not what we want it to say.

Again, YOU come against preterism with YOUR understanding and then condemn it for not fitting YOUR concepts.  Preterists do NOT teach that Jesus did not come in like manner as He was seen leaving.  Preterists DO teach that the futurist understanding of that likeness is incorrect.  Jesus did indeed, AVZ, return in like manner as He was seen going, but it had nothing to do with His physical body.  The likeness of the manner in which He left and would return is seen in the CLOUDS!  That is the likeness.  Clouds are often depicted as the presence of God.  Furthermore, unlike futurists, preterists do not have to explain why Jesus left without trumpet sound and without EVERY EYE SEEING HIM as futurists do.  Isn't that also included in your understanding of "like manner"?  Maybe you should clean up your own backyard.

Again, a difference in understanding of a term does not justify false accusations.  I will not go into detail here, but I will say that the Bible is clear that "flesh" does not always mean the physical body. 

Now let's look at your false accusation concerning Revelation 1:7.  When preterists say that not every eye throughout all history at some specific point in time were to see Him, they are not saying that EVERY does not mean EVERY.  If your child goes to a youth group meeting and comes home and you ask "who was there?" and he replies, "everyone was there," was he saying that everyone throughout the whole world and throughout all of time was there?  Would you understand him to mean that?  Of course not!  The context determines the meaning of the term.  EVERY eye of those Jews in the LAND when Jesus came in vengeance upon them, SAW Him just as surely as their forefathers had SEEN Him come when their Temple was destroyed and they were taken off into captivity.  ALL does not always mean ALL inclusively, in fact, I would venture to say that it rarely does.  It is often restricted by the context in which it is found, as I established above.  Even in everyday life, ALL and EVERY rarely mean what futurists make them mean.  They are more often than not restricted by the context in which they are used!

SEE is the same thing.  One can SEE the results of someone's presence without actually SEEING him.  I established this when I pointed out the FACT that the OT Jews had SEEN the coming of the Lord in the destruction of their Temple.  Those in Jerusalem when the Romans laid siege upon the city and the Temple SAW the Lord in His vengeance and judgment upon THEM.

The words SOON and THIS still mean exactly what they mean when futurists today use them so confidently:  "I believe Jesus is coming SOON--maybe in THIS generation."  Really?  Again, clean up your own backyard and stop forcing the meanings of terms used by futurists upon preterism in order to find fault.

By the way, IF the Revelation were fulfilled according to YOUR understanding, we would not be here.  HOWEVER, that is NOT the preterist understanding so stop condemning it for not fitting into YOUR paradigm.

Just a long argument why "see" does not mean "see", or "earth" does not mean "earth", a speculation about a third, "flesh" does not mean "flesh" and "every" does not mean "every".
But "soon" MUST mean "soon" and "this" MUST mean "this".

All you do is confirming what I said.

[LetGodBeTrue]

AVZ, you do not know the first thing reason and logic.  Stick with your inconsistent and inaccurate accusations.  Logical, intelligent people can see right through them.  And reasonable and analytical people, though they might disagree, will understand the points I was making.

You are willfully obtuse and that is sad because it is such an attitude that will keep you from truth.

Here is what an unreasonable, stubborn, and willfully obtuse person does:

He makes a baseless accusation built on a lack of understanding.
The person against whom he makes his unqualified accusation gives a reasonable response.
He, then, not liking the reasonable response and having NO argument against it, reverts to his original unreasonable and illogical accusation!

Pitiful and shameful.

[raggthyme13]

AVZ, you do not know the first thing reason and logic.  Stick with your inconsistent and inaccurate accusations.  Logical, intelligent people can see right through them.  And reasonable and analytical people, though they might disagree, will understand the points I was making.

You are willfully obtuse and that is sad because it is such an attitude that will keep you from truth.

Here is what an unreasonable, stubborn, and willfully obtuse person does:

He makes a baseless accusation built on a lack of understanding.
The person against whom he makes his unqualified accusation gives a reasonable response.
He, then, not liking the reasonable response and having NO argument against it, reverts to his original unreasonable and illogical accusation!

Pitiful and shameful.

So true. Someone recently said on youtube it is completely fruitless to debate with an anti-preterist. The only folks worth while are those who are open minded enough to search these things out. That's why I'm here... there are always people who are dissatisfied with dispensational teaching, who see the inconsistencies and contradictions. These are the people that really need to read these posts. :)

[LetGodBeTrue]

That is so true, Raggthyme.  I know that for every time AVZ or other futurists attack preterism here, there are many others who are viewing and reading these posts. 

Every preterist I respect has come to preterism because they love God's Word and are truth seekers.  They were more in love with the Scriptures and more concerned with the veracity of Jesus' and His disciples' words than they were with their paradigm and their preconceived ideas.  When truth hits someone right in the face and he denies that he has been hit, there is no hope for that person--not until he is willing to face reality.

The most reasonable futurists I have dealt with are those who will at least acknowledge that there are some serious difficulties with their paradigm.  They honestly admit that the time statements are legitimate areas of concern.  These futurists, however, are few and far between.

Preterism will continue to gain adherents because nothing can stop truth indefinitely.  I believe we have reached an apex in the rise of futurism, especially dispensationalism.  It is about to come cascading down the other side of the theological mountain.  "Soon" has been milked to the limits of credibility. There are no accidents in God's timetable.  We are seeing the theological world entering a new era of biblical understanding.  Just as Martin Luther was used to bring light out of darkness regarding salvation and justification, preterism is being used to revitalize the Church, lost in the darkness of unfulfilled prophecy and an unrealized Blessed Hope.  When the Church stops cowering in desperation as She awaits the destruction of the world and comes to see who She IS in Christ in all fullness, then She will have an impact on the world. 

[fish153]

Yes God is infinite/eternal. But when God promises something will soon be, it is in a way that men can understand. Surely he knows how to get a point across to his creation.

Otherwise it is no promise at all. If soon (to them) really meant "no way will it happen in your lifetime" then the word really has no meaning or purpose at all in relation to the message. Might as well leave it out altogether.

I think you failed to read my post.  What I stated is that every generation DOES have the promise that it could happen in their lifetime.  That is exactly the point.  When God says SOON it could be any generation that sees his return.  That is because we are like people at one place beside the parade--we cannot see the end of it.  But God can.  We just don't know WHEN during that parade he will come.

The word SOON has the same urgency to those at the beginning of the parade, or at it's middle, or those at the end.  No one knows at what point in the parade the visitation will come.

[raggthyme13]

Yes God is infinite/eternal. But when God promises something will soon be, it is in a way that men can understand. Surely he knows how to get a point across to his creation.

Otherwise it is no promise at all. If soon (to them) really meant "no way will it happen in your lifetime" then the word really has no meaning or purpose at all in relation to the message. Might as well leave it out altogether.

I think you failed to read my post.  What I stated is that every generation DOES have the promise that it could happen in their lifetime.  That is exactly the point.  When God says SOON it could be any generation that sees his return.  That is because we are like people at one place beside the parade--we cannot see the end of it.  But God can.  We just don't know WHEN during that parade he will come.

The word SOON has the same urgency to those at the beginning of the parade, or at it's middle, or those at the end.  No one knows at what point in the parade the visitation will come.

Before we continue I'd like to clarify something. When you say "his return" do you mean the rapture or the second coming?

[Stormcrow]

In the CONTEXT of Revelation 9:18 we find that the  "third of men" involves those trapped within the city of Jerusalem during the Jewish wars with Rome!  It is NOT a third of all men throughout the world.

This is further born out in the early chapters of Ezekiel when he is prophesying about the siege and destruction of the first temple at the hands of the Babylonians:

"As for you, son of man, take a sharp sword; take and use it as a barber's razor on your head and beard. Then take scales for weighing and divide the hair.  "One third you shall burn in the fire at the center of the city, when the days of the siege are completed. Then you shall take one third and strike it with the sword all around the city, and one third you shall scatter to the wind; and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. Ezekiel 5:1-2

John is prophesying over the destruction of Jerusalem in his day using the same prophetic voice Ezekiel used. 

Then there's Deuteronomy 28:

"The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand,  a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young. Deuteronomy 28:49-50

"It shall besiege you in all your towns until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout your land, and it shall besiege you in all your towns throughout your land which the LORD your God has given you.  "Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you. Deuteronomy 28:52-53

Every word of this prophecy (and others) can be seen as fulfilled in the writings of Josephus', "Wars of the Jews", books 2 through 7.

Now, in response to this:

What I stated is that every generation DOES have the promise that it could happen in their lifetime.  That is exactly the point.  When God says SOON it could be any generation that sees his return.

The answer is, clearly, "No, it doesn't."  Jesus was quite clear as to which generation He addressed with His prophecies of His coming in judgment upon Jerusalem. 

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.  "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28

"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:36

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34

When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,  saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.  "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,  and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44

"So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.  "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. Luke 21:31-32

"This generation" refers to none other than the one Jesus was addressing while He was on this earth!

Now, there is one other passage that, quite clearly, links Jesus' words and the book of Revelation to that generation:

And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him.  But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.  "For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.'  "Then they will begin TO SAY TO THE MOUNTAINS, 'FALL ON US,' AND TO THE HILLS, 'COVER US.' Luke 23:27-30

And where do we see this prophecy repeated???

Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;  and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;  for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:15-17

There is only one generation for whom these prophecies were meant.  Jesus was crystal clear on this point, so much so, that when Peter preached his sermon on Penetecost, thousands repented and were saved.  I'm not going to quote the entirety of Acts 2, but look at the Jews response to Peter's words:

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"  Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."  And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" Acts 2:37-40

Peter's challenge to them to be saved from "this perverse generation!" would mean nothing to them were it meant for us.  THEY knew what time it was.  THEY knew what generation it was.  And neither the time nor the generation anywhere in the scriptures - Old or New - points to us!

[Stormcrow]

we cannot see the end of it.  But God can.

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Matthew 24:36

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,  who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.  Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.  John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, Revelation 1:1-4

God knew the day and hour and told John to write to the seven churches in Asia, 2,000 years ago, that the time was near. 

If you believe Jesus and John, there's only one conclusion you can draw from this.

[Rev20]

This is the problem that preterists have. 1 Peter 4:7 is not talking to Peter's flock--it is talking to ALL christians! Please look at the book of Revelation---John is told to write down what he sees and then send it to the "seven churches". So, is what is written in Revelation only for those 7 churches, and for those alive at that time? No----Revelation says "Blessed is the one who reads this prophecy".

Where does it say that Peter is talking to all Christians in 1st Peter? When I read 1st Peter, I read this:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," -- 1Pet 1:1

When I read 2nd Peter, I read this:

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" -- 2Pet 1:1

I can agree that Peter was talking to all Christians in 2nd Peter, because he said he was. In 1st Peter he was writing to the Jews (the lost sheep of the house of Israel) that were scattered in the areas he mentioned. I would hesitate to add any words to his.

Peter, like all disciples, was sent initially to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Mat 10:5-6

As was Jesus:

"But he answered and said, I [Jesus] am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Mat 15:24

Sometimes it is easy to forget the primary mission of Christ and his disciples, considering how things turned out for the Jews and Jerusalem in the 1st century (and for the Gentiles). But the remnant of Israel, who were the election (Rom 11:5), had to be saved to fulfill the scripture; and they were saved in only one way:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." -- Joel 2:32

Therefore, to be saved, you need to be called (be part of the faithful remnant, like Peter, John, James, and Paul), or you needed to call upon the name of the Lord. Paul explained the second method, this way:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" -- Rom 10:12-15

It seems Paul was sent to preach the gospel to those who would not believe unless they heard the Word of God (if then), which is, most of us.

It is true that Peter would not turn away a Gentile who called upon the name of the Lord; but his mission remained with the conversion of the Jews, as was the mission of James:

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." -- Jas 1:1

Paul was chosen as a vessel for the Gentiles, but he always seemed to visit the synagogue first, upon entering a new town. Saving the remnant (the lost sheep) was the primary mission, but in Paul's case it seemed more personal:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." -- Rom 9:3-5

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation (jealousy) them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." -- Rom 11:13-14
.

A careful reading of 1st Peter will reveal that he is not writing to Gentiles.  He was writing to some of the elect, which was the remnant of Israel, explaining, among other things, that they were still the chosen people, and they were still the priesthood:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" -- 1Pet 2:9

In that passage Peter was explaining a fulfillment of one of the Lord's early promises to Israel:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6

"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." -- Deu 14:2

Well, we all know that very few kept the covenant. But those that did received wonderful, and permanent blessings.

Therefore, when you read about the 144,000 in the Revelation being only from the tribes of Israel, and when you notice that not one Gentile is mentioned as being a servant of the Lord, maybe you will think back upon one of Paul's lessons where the Gentiles (wild branches) are grafted into the natural tree, while some (maybe most) of the natural branches were broken off. Christ is the root, the remnant were the natural branches, and the "Gentiles are along for the ride," in a manner of speaking.

Now you know who those priests are that reign with Christ for a "thousand years", which means a "thousand years" until Satan is released.  They actually reign forever (Dan 7:18 ). They were the chosen remnant of the children of Israel; the elect predestinated from the foundation of the world. Paul explains that he was one of them:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -- Eph 1:4-5

For the record, I also believe those were the only (real) new covenant Saints, who were chosen by God and not by a committee of men. They were those who receive the awesome powers of the holy spirit on or about the day of Pentecost, or directly from the Lord (like Paul.) They could do things we can only imagine.
.

One final point:  is this really necessary?

"Preterism is a foolish doctrine because it attempts to take an infinite and eternal God and force him into a box where he thinks and acts AS WE DO.  But God's thoughts and his ways are far above ours.  And we must always remember that." -- You

If you insist, I know a little bit about dispensationalism; and frankly, I believe you have it backwards.  Dispensationalists seem to be more carnal (earthly) minded, while the preterist (at least the partial-preterists like myself) are more spiritual and heavenly minded.  The preterist and partial-preterists I know defend their doctrine with scripture.  How often do you do that?  Have you ever done that?

When you are ready to defend dispensationalism with the Word of God (which you can't), I will be more than happy to debate you.

[Rev20]

What always gets me is that preterists declare all the future prophesies as "allegorical".
A third of mankind will die, does not really mean a third.
Earth will be consumed by fire does not really mean what it says.
Jesus will return the same way as He left, does not really mean He will come back in bodily form.
The resurrection of the flesh is not really resurrection of the flesh.
All will see Him does not really mean "all".
See Him does not really mean "see".
etc

But when it comes to the words "soon" and "this"...they insist that it must mean exactly what it means.

This whole preterism thing simply is a "pick and choose" theory, founded on nothing but assumptions.
If Revelation has been fulfilled...we would not be here.

What is wrong with allegory? Paul used them:

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." -- Gal 4:22-26

Paul used that allegory to express that there were two Jerusalems: one, the earthly Jerusalem, kept its children in bondage, while the heavenly Jerusalem (the church) is free. He went on to explain, still using the allegory:

"Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." -- Gal 4:30-31

All Paul is really saying is those under the old covenant will not be heirs; which implies that only those who submit to the new covenant will be children of the promise. He said the same thing in many other ways in an attempt to beat it into our thick skulls, that Christ inherited all the promises, and only through him will we be fellow-heirs as children.

These are some "allegories" from the Revelation using stars, none of which are real stars:

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." -- Rev 1:20

"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -- Rev 8:10-11

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." -- Rev 9:1

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16

Even the one you might believe to be a real star (vs.8:11) is not a real star; nor is the water real water. Rivers and fountains of water is allegorical for the Holy Spirit:

"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water." -- Jer 2:13

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." -- Zec 14:8

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" -- John 7:37-39

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." -- Rev 22:1

So, all verse 8:10 is saying is something "fell" from heaven and corrupted (poisoned) the holy spirit. My bet is on Satan:

"I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." -- Luke 10:18

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." -- Rev 12:9

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." -- Rev 12:12

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." -- Rev 12:17

The early church members were filled with the holy spirit from the day of Pentecost; yet it was a constant (and dangerous) battle against the forces of Satan, who not only tried to kill and persecute them, but also "redirect" the conversation away from the Gospel to the old covenant laws.