Beyond Creation Science?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I'm sorry, Jarrod.  I'm not seeing this in the creation account at all.  Usually there are other keys to "decrypting" Biblical allegory in other passages of the Bible: the relationship between Christ and His church seen as that between a man and a woman (Ephesians) foreshadowed in the Song of Solomon, for instance.  I may be missing something, but I see no similar key for understanding the creation account as purely allegorical apart from those who choose to see it as such.  In fact, wherever the creation account is mentioned in the NT, it's treated as historical fact, not as allegory!

  The keys are, in part, the names in Genesis  (Adam, Sarah, Laban, etc.).  I actually started down this path completely by accident when I did a study of what the names in Genesis mean.  I had only meant to make some sense of the genealogies.

The second key is the book of Ezekiel, where the prophet treats Genesis as an allegory.  Contextually, Ezekiel is primarily a collection of prophecies against various world leaders.  Notably, Ezekiel names several of them as characters from Genesis.

1) Ezekiel 28 makes the king of Tyre the angel that guards the way to Eden.
Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him... Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth.

Compare to Genesis 3:
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

2) Ezekiel 31 names both Pharoah and the Assyrian king to be trees in Eden.
Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt... Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon... All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations... The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.  I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.  I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth... To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Compare also Daniel chapter 4, where the king of Babylon has a dream of a great tree, which Daniel very explicitly interprets to be himself, the king of Babylon.

The book of Romans is a classic example of a one-to-one contrast/comparison Paul uses in describing Adam's sin and Christ's redemption.  If Adam is a race of men, is Christ also a race of men???  Of course not.  Yet Paul's use of Adam's story does not indicate in any way that Adam is an allegorical figure, anymore than Christ is an allegorical figure.

Great point - I actually struggled more with reconciling this exact passage of scripture more than anything else.  Actually, I failed at it.  Then, one day I was having a discussion with someone about election in Romans, and the solution smacked me in the face.

To put it simply, in Hebrew thinking, there is no separation between a man and the men who are his descendants.  They are the same thing.  Descendants of Edom are called Edomites... which is Hebrew for simply "Edom's."  Descendants of Israel?  Israelites.  Israel's.  Midianites.  Ishmaelites. It's not a different word.  The thought here is that the man lives on in his children and children's children.

This thinking is explicit in the book of Hebrews, where Levi the patriarch is said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek... though he wasn't even born yet!  To Hebrew thinking, he already existed in his father's loins.  It may be hard to wrap your head around.  It was for me.  It's thinking that's kind of alien to the modern.

But, putting it in context, Paul's major point has to do with election and heredity.  He makes some very simple statement that people struggle mightily with, when he says that "all of Israel" is "elect" and "predestined" and the Gentiles are not.  But Paul's major point (which also reconciles the difficulty), is that men can change their paternity/ancestry when they are re-born.  So, even if you aren't born "elect," you can become part of the elect, when you become a child of God.

So in short - yes, Christ has also become a race of men, and those He has adopted have become his descendants.  We are Christ-ites - Christ's - part and parcel of our Lord.

In fact, the creation of man and the animals has been used in some bigoted circles to suggest that interracial marriage is against God's design, in that separate "kinds" (including races) should not mix.  Clearly, if Adam and Eve represent separate nations or ethnicities, the point of Christ's instruction on marriage between one man and one woman is completely lost and, in fact, justifies the view of some that marriage should only be reserved for men and women of the same race.

If you think so, you haven't understood my view (which is understandable, since I've hardly articulated it). 

But... my view turns that on its head.  It requires that Adam (Hebrew for "red") emigrates to Lebanon (Hebrew for "white") and creates a race that is mixed.  Those are the heroes of our story.

You see where this is going?

Treating the creation account as purely allegorical destroys the foundation for so many other doctrines in the Bible essential to Christianity and the gospel of Christ as taught by Christ and the apostles themselves.

I have not found this to be true, though I've plugged it into many passages.  Very little has even requires any re-interpretation, and in the cases where it was so, it was usually that I simply didn't understand the passage in the first place.

The authors of BCS have a bone to pick with creation science.  I get that.  But in trying to debunk creation science, they've thrown the baby (Jesus) out with the bathwater, and that's where I have the real problem with their view.  And I'm not the only full preterist who holds this view.

I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that what I believe ought not to be lumped in with... whatever it is the guy who wrote this book believes.  There seem to be some rather large differences.

...one time when in this discussion with JL Vaughn [one of the authors of BCS, Ed.], I presented some arguments to which he said that they had not yet worked out all of the problems. I told him that maybe the problem was that they had left the right story and have created a new one. And I think for sure that is what they have done. Its an interesting story that they have developed, but it has become dangerous for many in the fulfilled eschatological view because it has either diminished or has totally done away with the Gospel of Christ. That is reason enough for me to not accept it, but textually, its just not there.

http://www.livebytr.proboards.com/post/10273

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the author of the quote cited above. 

Good chat, Jarrod.   

Always a pleasure.   

[raggthyme13]

I'm sorry, Jarrod.  I'm not seeing this in the creation account at all.  Usually there are other keys to "decrypting" Biblical allegory in other passages of the Bible: the relationship between Christ and His church seen as that between a man and a woman (Ephesians) foreshadowed in the Song of Solomon, for instance.  I may be missing something, but I see no similar key for understanding the creation account as purely allegorical apart from those who choose to see it as such.  In fact, wherever the creation account is mentioned in the NT, it's treated as historical fact, not as allegory!

  The keys are, in part, the names in Genesis  (Adam, Sarah, Laban, etc.).  I actually started down this path completely by accident when I did a study of what the names in Genesis mean.  I had only meant to make some sense of the genealogies.

The second key is the book of Ezekiel, where the prophet treats Genesis as an allegory.  Contextually, Ezekiel is primarily a collection of prophecies against various world leaders.  Notably, Ezekiel names several of them as characters from Genesis.

1) Ezekiel 28 makes the king of Tyre the angel that guards the way to Eden.
Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him... Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth.

Compare to Genesis 3:
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

2) Ezekiel 31 names both Pharoah and the Assyrian king to be trees in Eden.
Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt... Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon... All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations... The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.  I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.  I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth... To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Compare also Daniel chapter 4, where the king of Babylon has a dream of a great tree, which Daniel very explicitly interprets to be himself, the king of Babylon.

Interesting point.

[LetGodBeTrue]

Again, using symbolism and figurative language that is based upon realities does not negate the force of the realities.  The "heaven and earth" of Israel is founded in the actual "heaven and earth" created in Genesis.  Jesus is called a lamb and a door, etc.  We understand the meaning of those things based upon the realities they represent.

Figurative and symbolic allusions made to kings and others based upon real events or places only serves to establish the realities being alluded to.  Does Ezekiel 28 place the actual king of Tyre in the actual Garden of Eden or is this the use of a metaphor in judgment language?  Was he the anointed cherub?  To say that something IS something or is someone is a device often employed in literature to make a point.  The same is true of Ezekiel 31.  When a father says to his daughter, "You are an angel," he is not really saying that she is an actual angel.  He is saying that she has the characteristics of an angel--a real entity.

The prophet is NOT treating Genesis as an allegory.  He is using the REALITIES of Eden and the Cherub to point out the wickedness of the King of Tyre.  Again, the allusion establishes the reality of that being alluded to; it does not demand the nullification of the reality or the propensity to turn the reality into an allegory. 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Again, using symbolism and figurative language that is based upon realities does not negate the force of the realities.  The "heaven and earth" of Israel is founded in the actual "heaven and earth" created in Genesis.  Jesus is called a lamb and a door, etc.  We understand the meaning of those things based upon the realities they represent.  Figurative and symbolic allusions made to kings and others based upon real events or places only serves to establish the realities being alluded to.

Does Ezekiel 28 place the actual king of Tyre in the actual Garden of Eden or is this the use of a metaphor in judgment language?  Was he the anointed cherub?

Yes, Ezekiel places the actual King of Tyre in the actual Garden of Eden.  That's not to say that everything Ezekiel says is literal.  He uses two sets of language - the figurative and the literal.  He explains the literal meaning of the figurative language.

To say that something IS something or is someone is a device often employed in literature to make a point.

Yes, it's called a metaphor.  (Somewhere my middle-school English teacher is smiling.)

The same is true of Ezekiel 31.  When a father says to his daughter, "You are an angel," he is not really saying that she is an actual angel.  He is saying that she has the characteristics of an angel--a real entity.

Well, yes.  The King of Assyria was not literally a tree.  Later in the same chapter, when it says that all the other trees envied him, I think a figurative reading is also called for.  Trees don't envy other trees.  Or kings. 

The prophet is NOT treating Genesis as an allegory.  He is using the REALITIES of Eden and the Cherub to point out the wickedness of the King of Tyre.

Can we examine this logic?  If this is so, then, in order to establish that the king of Tyre was wicked, the prophet metaphorically calls him... a protective angel! 

It gets worse.  The comparison cannot possibly be with devil (as having fallen).  You have satan marked out in the Genesis story as the snake.  Here the Tyrian king is equivalent to the angel set to protect the garden against Adam and Eve's re-entry.  Pretty clearly not the devil/snake.

Your way makes the text make no sense.  But my way explains the text plainly.

Again, the allusion establishes the reality of that being alluded to; it does not demand the nullification of the reality or the propensity to turn the reality into an allegory.

I guess I'll say it again.  Reality is not nullified/negated, nor is it turned into some sort of object lesson, as in a fable.

Rather, early Genesis belongs to the class of literature that we ought to call 'apocryphal,' wherein the imagined characters and setting of the story (trees, Adam, Eve) stand for things which literally exist (real kings and people groups).  It is a case of "the names have been changed."

It is not terribly surprising, then, to find the prophet Ezekiel expounding on these things, explaining what the symbols mean.  Most times there is an apocalypse for every apocryphon.

Jarrod

[LetGodBeTrue]

Luke 3:23-38 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,[a] the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Genesis 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
12 And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:
13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Matthew 19:1-4

1And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan; 2And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there. 3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

1 Chronicles 1 New International Version (NIV)

Historical Records From Adam to Abraham
To Noah's Sons

1 Adam, Seth, Enosh, 2 Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, 3 Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah.

4 The sons of Noah:[a]

Shem, Ham and Japheth.

Romans 5:14

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

1 Timothy 2:13

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Jude 14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Genesis 1

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

King James Version (KJV)

The Scriptures speak for themselves.