Isn't the Judgment future?

[LetGodBeTrue]

The 1260 days has OT precedent (Daniel) and fits quite nicely into the historical setting of the Jewish Wars with Rome (AD 66-70).  The 1,000 has no prophetic OT bearings should be understood as a symbol.  Perhaps we will never know what it exactly means this side of glory.  What we do know, however,  (related to the topic of this thread) is the time frame.  John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place because the time was NEAR.  We should look for the significance of the 1000 within that setting even if we cannot pinpoint its exact meaning.

[raggthyme13]

You make a good point. But could it be possible that the Revelation started "soon" but spanned to the Crusades? It just seems interesting that the time period between that and the destruction of Jerusalem was exactly 1000 years...

[fish153]

You make a good point. But could it be possible that the Revelation started "soon" but spanned to the Crusades? It just seems interesting that the time period between that and the destruction of Jerusalem was exactly 1000 years...

I would point out that almost every translation of Revelation 20:7 puts the word "the" in front of "thousand years".  This is referring to a literal 1000 year millenium which transpires at the same time that Satan is chained for an actual 1000 years:

New International Version
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

New Living Translation
When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.

English Standard Version
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

New American Standard Bible
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

King James Bible
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

International Standard Version
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be freed from his prison.

NET Bible
Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison

[raggthyme13]

Yes fish, the site I linked to spoke of the loosing of Satan after the 1000 years being in 1071... one millennium after the ad70 destruction. During that time between the two events, Christianity flourished. As John wrote, they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[SeekingWisdom]

Raggthyme: I read some of that site and found it intriguing. Some of it seems a little out there but other seems plausible (the Vesuvius link was interesting). What gets me though is that at one point they claim its not important which Messiah you believe in but that you believe in one of them. I cannot accept that and that feels so wrong that it frankly turned me off from everything else on that site.

[LetGodBeTrue]

What do the Crusades have to do with Bible prophecy?  John was shown the things which were then to shortly take place.  This time frame is established in both the first chapter and the last chapter.  John, unlike Daniel, was told to NOT seal up the vision.  It was not for a time far off as Daniel's was (which was still only hundreds of years and not thousands).  It was for a time that was near.  The thousand years is symbolic not literal. 

[raggthyme13]

SeekingWisdom,

Oh, I didn't read that. Yikes.. that would turn me off too, as it should. I still like some of the things I did read, seemed to make sense with the Scriptures as I read them.

[raggthyme13]

What do the Crusades have to do with Bible prophecy?  John was shown the things which were then to shortly take place.  This time frame is established in both the first chapter and the last chapter.  John, unlike Daniel, was told to NOT seal up the vision.  It was not for a time far off as Daniel's was (which was still only hundreds of years and not thousands).  It was for a time that was near.  The thousand years is symbolic not literal.

I understand, but my question was couldn't it be possible that the unfolding of the Revelation was to begin soon (with the destruction of Jerusalem and prophecies surrounding that event) but that the complete fulfillment of it would last through a literal 1000 years? If that cannot be, please show me from Scripture why. I see what you've already written but it does not seem to mean that all the things written must happen within a 40 year time frame. It is highly probably that I haven't thought something through, if you can think of any other scripture, let me know. I just have a hard time figuring why the Lord would say 1000 years to mean a few, or even 40. And there's nothing in the OT explaining the symbolism.

[LetGodBeTrue]

raggthyme, I do not see where it is suggested or says anywhere that the things of John's vision were going to begin to take place shortly.  It says they were to take place shortly and that the time was near.  John was not to seal up the words of the prophecy--the time for its fulfillment (not the beginning of its fulfillment) was AT HAND. 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

What do the Crusades have to do with Bible prophecy?  John was shown the things which were then to shortly take place.  This time frame is established in both the first chapter and the last chapter.  John, unlike Daniel, was told to NOT seal up the vision.  It was not for a time far off as Daniel's was (which was still only hundreds of years and not thousands).  It was for a time that was near.  The thousand years is symbolic not literal.

I understand, but my question was couldn't it be possible that the unfolding of the Revelation was to begin soon (with the destruction of Jerusalem and prophecies surrounding that event) but that the complete fulfillment of it would last through a literal 1000 years? If that cannot be, please show me from Scripture why. I see what you've already written but it does not seem to mean that all the things written must happen within a 40 year time frame. It is highly probably that I haven't thought something through, if you can think of any other scripture, let me know. I just have a hard time figuring why the Lord would say 1000 years to mean a few, or even 40. And there's nothing in the OT explaining the symbolism.

Revelation plays out on a definite timetable of weeks, which is such a prevalent theme in Jewish literature that it's almost its own genre.  Consider Daniel's weeks.  Enoch's weeks is a topic on another thread right now.  The book of Jasher uses weeks.  I think the apocalypse of Adam and Eve and several other intertestamental books do as well.

Anyway, all that to say - Revelation plays out over a tribulation WEEK, and even then that week is cut short.  That means that all the events in Revelation 1 up to the White Throne Judgment, all have to occur within the space of a few generations.  Depending how you read it, it may be as few as 3 generations, or as many as 14 generations (roughly 300 years as an outside estimate).

But Revelation 20, with its prophecy of a 1000 years, is definitely AFTER that week.  So you can't go back and try to make that week last 1000 years, because it contradicts the chronology the book sets forth.

Jarrod

[SeekingWisdom]

But in Luke 21 it says that the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem marks the fulfillment of ALL things written. I'm not so sure the 1000 years is after that week.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I'm pretty sure Luke is talking about the OT prophecies there.  At the very least, I doubt he is talking about Revelation, which wouldn't have been written yet.

Jarrod

[SeekingWisdom]

Agree he is talking about the OT prophecies but Isaiah 65 includes the New Heaven and New Earth (which is post 1000 years). If that prophecy is included then so is the 1000 years.

[CatHead]

Hi SeekingWisdom,

But in Luke 21 it says that the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem marks the fulfillment of ALL things written. I'm not so sure the 1000 years is after that week.

Another way to look at Luke 21.22 may be not to say that the 'days of vengeance' were the fulfillment of all things written, but rather to say that the fulfillment of the 'days of vengeance' was a requirement so that all things written may be fulfilled.  In other words, without the destruction of Jerusalem, all things written couldn't be fulfilled....it was just a necessary step in the order of the unfolding of prophecy.  The Jews were blinded for a reason, so that they would not repent and Christ would not come and turn back Rome during the siege preceding the destruction of Jerusalem.  Had they repented and Christ saved them...then, all things written could not be fulfilled.

Obviously there are scores of prophecies not fulfilled in 70ad, so there must be an alternate reading of Luke 21.22 than the one you are presenting no?

[LetGodBeTrue]

What "scores" of prophecy have not been fulfilled?

[fish153]

What "scores" of prophecy have not been fulfilled?

'What "scores" of prophecy have not been fulfilled?' said the man in the U.S. patent office in 1890 shortly after he said "everything that could be invented has been invented"

"Everything that can be invented – has already been invented," and other famous invention-related quotes

This (in)famous quote has long been attributed to the commissioner of the United States Patent Office, a Mr. Charles Duell, back in 1899, and it's one of my personal favorites. Since the patent office opened in 1790, it has registered more than 6.2 million patents.

I wonder if Mr. Duell was also a  preterist?

[raggthyme13]

What "scores" of prophecy have not been fulfilled?

'What "scores" of prophecy have not been fulfilled?' said the man in the U.S. patent office in 1890 shortly after he said "everything that could be invented has been invented"

"Everything that can be invented – has already been invented," and other famous invention-related quotes

This (in)famous quote has long been attributed to the commissioner of the United States Patent Office, a Mr. Charles Duell, back in 1899, and it's one of my personal favorites. Since the patent office opened in 1790, it has registered more than 6.2 million patents.

I wonder if Mr. Duell was also a  preterist?

Hi SeekingWisdom,

But in Luke 21 it says that the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem marks the fulfillment of ALL things written. I'm not so sure the 1000 years is after that week.

Another way to look at Luke 21.22 may be not to say that the 'days of vengeance' were the fulfillment of all things written, but rather to say that the fulfillment of the 'days of vengeance' was a requirement so that all things written may be fulfilled.  In other words, without the destruction of Jerusalem, all things written couldn't be fulfilled....it was just a necessary step in the order of the unfolding of prophecy.  The Jews were blinded for a reason, so that they would not repent and Christ would not come and turn back Rome during the siege preceding the destruction of Jerusalem.  Had they repented and Christ saved them...then, all things written could not be fulfilled.

Obviously there are scores of prophecies not fulfilled in 70ad, so there must be an alternate reading of Luke 21.22 than the one you are presenting no?

But the day of vengeance of our God refers to the Day of the Lord, and we know that day marks the end of the age, no?

[raggthyme13]

raggthyme, I do not see where it is suggested or says anywhere that the things of John's vision were going to begin to take place shortly.  It says they were to take place shortly and that the time was near.  John was not to seal up the words of the prophecy--the time for its fulfillment (not the beginning of its fulfillment) was AT HAND.

Ok, thank you. I'm just entertaining ideas, trying to keep an open mind. I appreciate all the input I can get :)

[CatHead]

Hi raggthyme,

But the day of vengeance of our God refers to the Day of the Lord, and we know that day marks the end of the age, no?

Not that I'm aware of.  Zechariah 14 says that on the "Day of the Lord" that he will fight against the ones attacking Jerusalem.  Christ didn't attack the Romans in 70ad, the Mount of Olives wasn't split in half, the mountains around Jerusalem weren't flattened etc.  If 70ad was the "days of vengeance" it would seem to be the opposite of "the Day of the Lord".  God waged war on Jerusalem instead of saving it.

Hi LetGodBeTrue,

What "scores" of prophecy have not been fulfilled?

Can't you just predict what I would say again and save me the bother?  Besides I'm sure that any unfulfilled prophecy that I would present to you that doesn't fit into your personal prophetic timeframe would be considered an "unknowable symbol" making discussion about it pointless.

[raggthyme13]

Hi raggthyme,

But the day of vengeance of our God refers to the Day of the Lord, and we know that day marks the end of the age, no?

Not that I'm aware of.  Zechariah 14 says that on the "Day of the Lord" that he will fight against the ones attacking Jerusalem.  Christ didn't attack the Romans in 70ad, the Mount of Olives wasn't split in half, the mountains around Jerusalem weren't flattened etc.  If 70ad was the "days of vengeance" it would seem to be the opposite of "the Day of the Lord".  God waged war on Jerusalem instead of saving it.

http://revelationrevolution.org/zechariah-14-fulfilled-a-preterist-commentary/

[LetGodBeTrue]

It was a legitimate question, Cathead. "Scores" of prophecy is a very large amount.  Can you actually list 40 or more unfulfilled prophecies? Unless you were using the word "scores" symbolically?  How many "unknowable symbols" have I presented?

Furthermore, Zechariah 14 depicts both physical Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem.  Mixing the two causing confusion.

Why do you expect some actual splitting in two of the Mount of Olives or the flattening of the mountains?  Did the earth move out of her place in God's judgment against Babylon (Isa. 13:13)?  Did the "heart of Egypt melt" when God came in judgment against Egypt (Isa. 19:1)?  Were the mountains melted with blood; were ALL the hosts of heaven dissolved; were the heavens rolled up like a scroll; did ALL their host fall down; was God's "sword" filled with blood (Isa. 34)?  This is figurative, judgment language not to be taken literally.  The Mount of Olives was not to be literally split in two and the mountains were not to be literally flattened.  Proper interpretation demands that one take that which is literal literally and that which if figurative figuratively.

[SeekingWisdom]

Just to clarify: Zechariah 14 does not say the Lord will fight against the other nations on that day. Verse 3 begins with "then" which is not necessarily the same day.

[SeekingWisdom]

Also not so sure that Luke 21 could mean the destruction is just a necessary event and not the finale.  The Greek used for fulfillment implies maximum fulfillment and then is reiterated with the Greek for all things. It thus says in the Greek that these events (destruction of Jerusalem) are the maximum fulfillment of all things written. I believe it would have been written differently if the events were just a precursor.

[CatHead]

Hi LetGodBeTrue,

It was a legitimate question, Cathead. "Scores" of prophecy is a very large amount.  Can you actually list 40 or more unfulfilled prophecies? Unless you were using the word "scores" symbolically?  How many "unknowable symbols" have I presented?

Furthermore, Zechariah 14 depicts both physical Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem.  Mixing the two causing confusion.

Why do you expect some actual splitting in two of the Mount of Olives or the flattening of the mountains?  Did the earth move out of her place in God's judgment against Babylon (Isa. 13:13)?  Did the "heart of Egypt melt" when God came in judgment against Egypt (Isa. 19:1)?  Were the mountains melted with blood; were ALL the hosts of heaven dissolved; were the heavens rolled up like a scroll; did ALL their host fall down; was God's "sword" filled with blood (Isa. 34)?  This is figurative, judgment language not to be taken literally.  The Mount of Olives was not to be literally split in two and the mountains were not to be literally flattened.  Proper interpretation demands that one take that which is literal literally and that which if figurative figuratively.

This is a smokescreen non-argument.  I could equally say that prophecy contains reference to literal people, places, things therefore The Mount of Olives is to be literally split in two.  If you say it's a unknowable symbol...prove it.

It is literal because literal people are instructed to interact with this literal place the same way they interacted with a literal earthquake in roughly the same literal place years before.  Are these people supposed to fling themselves headlong into a place that could be "representing" a chasm in the Mount of Olives and hope for the best?  The only way the Lord could make it more clear to us this was a literal event is if he prefaced the verse by saying "Hey guys this is literal"

And yes, I literally meant 'scores'.  And if you are trying to press me to list as many as I can find so you can casually, without proof, dismiss each one as an 'unknowable symbol' I wouldn't hold my breath.  I'm not interested in that tedium.  All that's necessary is one anyway.  Now anyone can simply go to google maps, type in Mount of Olives, take a look, and understand that full preterism is bogus.

Hi SeekingWisdom,

Just to clarify: Zechariah 14 does not say the Lord will fight against the other nations on that day. Verse 3 begins with "then" which is not necessarily the same day.

'then shall' is an addition by translators and doesn't exist in the Hebrew text.  A literal translation would be "goes (forth) YHWH (and) fights....."

Also not so sure that Luke 21 could mean the destruction is just a necessary event and not the finale.  The Greek used for fulfillment implies maximum fulfillment and then is reiterated with the Greek for all things. It thus says in the Greek that these events (destruction of Jerusalem) are the maximum fulfillment of all things written. I believe it would have been written differently if the events were just a precursor.

I think you misunderstood my argument.  I will make a very small change to the text to hopefully illustrate my argument better.  It won't really change the meaning of the text, just make it more easily understandable to our modern English hearing.

Luk 21:22  For these be the days of vengeance, (so)that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

If I said "I need to buy a canvas so that I can complete my masterpiece" is the canvas the masterpiece?  Or just a necessary step in the completion of the masterpiece?

I don't disagree "that all things which are written may be fulfilled" is the full completion of prophecy.  I am saying that prophecy could not be fulfilled with out the completion of the 'days of vengeance'.   Just like the masterpiece couldn't be completed without the canvas.  But the canvas is not the masterpiece. 

[LetGodBeTrue]

So, apparently it just takes ONE argument to dismiss an entire paradigm.  So, if THIS GENERATION means THIS GENERATION in its normal, usual, common, everyday usage ( and it does), then futurism is destroyed.  If that's good for you futurists, then it is certainly good for us preterists.  Futurism is "bogus" based upon your criteria.

By the way, Jesus could not have been more clear about those events of the Olive Discourse happening in that generation in which He Himself lived then if He had said, oh, let me see, something like--THIS GENERATION will by NO MEANS pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place."

[geneh_33]

That verse taken in context reads this way:

"29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

So preterists believe this entire passage from Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled?

[geneh_33]

When was the sun darkened and moon no longer gave its light?

[LetGodBeTrue]

'then shall' is an addition by translators and doesn't exist in the Hebrew text.  A literal translation would be "goes (forth) YHWH (and) fights....."

Proof?  Have you studied Hebrew?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

When was the sun darkened and moon no longer gave its light?

Preterists view Biblical language about the sun and moon as being apocalyptic, and representing the 'twain anointed' rulers - the king and high priest.

A TON of these arguments seem to come back to this point.  Like, a weirdly disproportionate number.

[geneh_33]

When was the sun darkened and moon no longer gave its light?

Preterists view Biblical language about the sun and moon as being apocalyptic, and representing the 'twain anointed' rulers - the king and high priest.

A TON of these arguments seem to come back to this point.  Like, a weirdly disproportionate number.

Just asking a question, I am not arguing nor do I desire to.

[SeekingWisdom]

Ganeh: I would recommend reading Jeremiah 4. That chapter is about Israel being captured by Babylon.  In it Jeremiah describes the whole world being desolate, the heavens going dark, and the mountains shaking. This is a great example of the symbolism used in the OT and could easily be used in the NT as well.

Cathead: thank you for pointing that out on Zechariah. I looked and sure enough "then shall" doesn't appear to be there. I'll have to give that more thought.

(Note I am not a Greek scholar) looking at Luke 21:22 I believe the Greek links days of vengeance and fulfillment of all things pretty strongly. In other words I don't think the Greek can support the "so" position: that the days of vengeance happen so that (later) all things written are fulfilled.

[LetGodBeTrue]

I'm confused, SeekingWisdom and Cathead--what are you two looking at that does not have "then shall"?  The Hebrew text?  Or where?

[SeekingWisdom]

Yes Hebrew. the interlinear for Zechariah 14:3 appears to read "and the Lord shall go forth" without the "then shall".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/zechariah/14.htm

[CatHead]

Hi SeekingWisdom,

Cathead: thank you for pointing that out on Zechariah. I looked and sure enough "then shall" doesn't appear to be there. I'll have to give that more thought.

(Note I am not a Greek scholar) looking at Luke 21:22 I believe the Greek links days of vengeance and fulfillment of all things pretty strongly. In other words I don't think the Greek can support the "so" position: that the days of vengeance happen so that (later) all things written are fulfilled.

You are reading Luke 21:22 as if 'the days of vengeance' were the last prophecy to be fulfilled in all of prophecy.  I agree that this reading is correct and can be viewed that way.

I'm reading Luke 21:22 as if 'the days of vengeance' were somewhere in the middle of unfolding prophecy.  My argument is that 'the days of vengeance' is a pivotal prophecy in which the remainder of prophecy relies upon in order to occur or not occur.  My way, you have to impose the hypothetical question into the text "What would have happened in 70ad had the Jews repented and the 'days of vengeance not occurred"?"  Would all things written then be fulfilled?

So please don't think I am challenging your reading of the text.  You don't need to study the Greek to prove to me that your way is correct.  It is.  I'm just offering an alternative reading to the text.

[LetGodBeTrue]

We must understand figurative, judgment language.

Jesus said those things happened in THAT generation--so they did.

Did the earth move out of her place; did the stars fall from heaven, did God have a sword bathed in blood (Isa. 13, 34)?  This is judgment language not to be taken literally.  Futurists would lose their illogical insistence on misunderstanding and misinterpreting the clear meaning of THIS generation, if they would but step out of their western mindset and enter the Hebrew OT mind frame!  Jesus, the prophet of prophets, well-versed in Hebrew thought and apocalyptic language, used that figurative language for a reason.  Neither He nor His disciples right there with Him understood it as literal.

This has been brought out time and time and time again, yet futurists still come back with their uneducated accusations of "when did that happen literally"?  It didn't--not literally.  But it did happen. 

It's maddening.