Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming

[3 Resurrections]

No, robycop3,

The presence of sin today only illustrates that mankind, just like Satan, has an equal ability to commit offenses towards God - even without Satan around to instigate those evil actions anymore.  This ability to sin was always a failing of mankind from the fall in the Garden of Eden, but ever since God  "SLEW" that Dragon back in AD 70 (Is. 27:1), we actually have no one but ourselves at which we can point the finger of blame for our misdeeds.

You probably would like to duck this culpability for your own sins by continuing to blame a now-non-existent Satan and his angels, but it can't be done.  Man up robycop3, and take responsibility.

I have backed up all my points with scripture, but your view never seems to provide any for a foundation of proving your points.  Why is that?

[dpr]

Hey dpr,

Whether you realize it or not, you are currently living within that New Jerusalem city whose gates are always open with an invitation to salvation.  The old Jerusalem, just like Hagar and her son, has already been "cast out" by God. 

And you've been listening to too many Beatles records, songs like Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds.

Whatever drug you're on, it has deluded you...

Rev 21:1-3
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

[lea]

And you've been listening to too many Beatles records, songs like Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds.

Whatever drug you're on, it has deluded you...

Rev 21:1-3
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

That was a desperate response. Anyone can see the desperation. One does not need drugs to laugh at that!
So you post Scripture, but no exegesis with it.

The first "heaven and earth" was the Jewish temple and the Old Covenant law.

Now Christ being the Mediator of the new covenant made the old wax old and pass away (Rev21) and read Hebrews.

So we see in the New Jerusalem no temple.

You can't go back to the old Jerusalem Biblically.  Christians are in the New Jerusalem and outside are still sinners. (Rev.21-22).
That's where we stand in reality.

That is reality.

[robycop3]

 HORSE FEATHERS !

  Old J is still right where it was before & after its several destructions. The New J, a golden cube 1500 miles square, is still in heaven. READ YOUR BIBLE !

[lea]

HORSE FEATHERS !

  Old J is still right where it was before & after its several destructions. The New J, a golden cube 1500 miles square, is still in heaven. READ YOUR BIBLE !

The N.J. came down from heaven.  Jesus was the mediator of the New Covenant.  The O.C. passed away. (Rev.21) The blessings we have there are for now, they are earthly.

Christians who claim it, see the grace of God prospering them in all seasons - The river of life there is offered to anyone who thirsts. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well about the "rivers of water welling up inside us- the offering of the Holy Spirit.

[robycop3]

The N.J. came down from heaven.  Jesus was the mediator of the New Covenant.  The O.C. passed away. (Rev.21) The blessings we have there are for now, they are earthly.

Christians who claim it, see the grace of God prospering them in all seasons - The river of life there is offered to anyone who thirsts. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well about the "rivers of water welling up inside us- the offering of the Holy Spirit.

HORSE FEATHERS!

  Anyone see a golden cube 1500 miles square on earth right now? When it's here, the sun won't be needed, as GOD will provide light & energy. Last time I looked, the sun's still shining. I suggest you let your Thorazine kick in before you post, so you won't post anything as goofy as the above !

[lea]

HORSE FEATHERS!

  Anyone see a golden cube 1500 miles square on earth right now? When it's here, the sun won't be needed, as GOD will provide light & energy. Last time I looked, the sun's still shining. I suggest you let your Thorazine kick in before you post, so you won't post anything as goofy as the above !

So you and who else in your place takes Thorazine? 

Yea, right, 1500 sq.mile kingdom for millions and billions of Christians!

You just don't have a clue about prophetic, apocalyptic symbology in Revelation for sure. Revelation is what you base your faith on it seems.

Does no one any good!

[robycop3]

So you and who else in your place takes Thorazine?

  From the garbage YOU post, YOU seem to need it, plus some lithium.

Yea, right, 1500 sq.mile kingdom for millions and billions of Christians!

  Nupe, just the New J. Try reading Scripture & believing what it says insteada what those crackpots tell you it means.

You just don't have a clue about prophetic, apocalyptic symbology in Revelation for sure. Revelation is what you base your faith on it seems.

Does no one any good!

'WAY aheada YOU ! Since you can't prove your pret hooey, you try to re-write Scripture by making up new meanings for it, or parroting what Preston, Gentry, & other quax tell you.

[lea]

  From the garbage YOU post, YOU seem to need it, plus some lithium.

  Nupe, just the New J. Try reading Scripture & believing what it says insteada what those crackpots tell you it means.

'WAY aheada YOU ! Since you can't prove your pret hooey, you try to re-write Scripture by making up new meanings for it, or parroting what Preston, Gentry, & other quax tell you.

So you have bipolar mental illness?

Looks like you haven't been taking your meds!

[robycop3]

So you have bipolar mental illness?

Looks like you haven't been taking your meds!

OK, then, simply show us undeniable, clear historical proof that the eschatological events have already occurred !

[lea]

robycop3,

You will have to do a lot of reading!
Pastor David B. Curtis-

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Where's My Hope?
Titus 2:13
Delivered 07/08/18

Many years ago, actually around twenty two, I came to believe in the eschatology of Preterism. Preterism is the teaching that the Judgement, the Resurrection and the Second Coming were all fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The longer I study the Bible, the more convinced I am that Preterism is true? I think that Preterism is an eschatology of hope, of victory. But when I share the Preterist view with others, the question that I am inevitably asked is, "If the Lord has already come back, then, 'Where is my hope?'"

If you are brave enough to talk to others about the Preterist view, you have most likely heard this question, "Where is my hope?" There seems to be a great confusion today about what the Church's hope is. Is our hope to be snatched physically off the face of the earth? I think that most Christians would say, "Yes!" So, when you tell them that the Second Coming is a past event, they feel as if they have lost their hope.

Does Preterism take away people's hope? Not at all, if anything, it strengthens our hope. And this is very important, because "hope" is very important. To say that Preterism destroys the hope of the Church is a very serious charge because: People Need Hope!

"Is there any hope?" That's what the parents wondered when the doctors said, "There's been an accident, and your 20-year-old son is paralyzed from the neck down, and we don't think we can do anything about it." Is there any hope ... for the married couple who seem to wind up at the same dead-end of unresolved conflict again and again; who worry that they might not make it?

Or what about the man who's fallen victim to alcohol or pornography or gambling or any of a number of addictive behaviors, the man who's in so deep he fears he'll never find a way out? Is there any hope for him?

Where is the hope for the mom-to-be who goes to her obstetrician for a routine checkup and hears, "I'm sorry. We can't find a heartbeat?" Or for the single mom who works a full-time job by day, serves as both mother and father by night and wonders to herself "How long can I keep this up?" Or the person who battles depression and anxiety? Or the man who stands by his wife's bedside as she lays dying?

Where is the hope for a generation of young people who seem to be an easy mark for drugs, sexually transmitted diseases, and the pain of a broken family?

Believers, to all of these we must say, "Yes, there is hope in Yeshua the Christ. People, as Christians, we can offer hope to the hopeless.

One writer expressed it this way, "Hope is an essential ingredient of life. A man works in hope, he saves in hope, he dies in hope. Every great religion, every political movement has offered hope." Another wrote, "A person can live 40 days without food, 4 days without water, 4 minutes without air, but only 4 seconds without hope." Hope is the power that keeps us going in the toughest times of life. It takes obstacles and transforms them into possibilities. Hope gives us the strength and courage we need to make the most out of life."

I'm sure that you understand the importance of hope. We must have hope, but it must not be a misplaced hope. If you remember, about 20 years ago 39 members of the cult known as "Heaven's Gate" took their own lives in the hope of linking up with a UFO that was supposedly traveling in the wake of the comet Hale-Bopp. This is a chilling example of misplaced hope. After their death, authorities discovered video tapes in which the leader of the cult described the hoped-for space encounter. Members came before the camera two at a time, side by side, to say their last good-byes. One woman said, "Maybe they're crazy for all I know, but I don't have any choice but to go for it because I've been on this planet for 31 years and there's nothing here for me."' As I read that statement it struck me: There's a woman, in desperate need of hope, who gave her very life for a hope that's no hope at all.

Listen to the perceptive analysis of Woody Allen, "More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness; the other to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly." What a terrible choice! I choose neither road. But Allen reflects the thinking of many today.

I read about an interesting Scientific experiment that was conducted a while back. A group of behavioral Scientists put some Wharf Rats in a tank of water, and observed them to see how long they would survive before drowning. The average time was 17 minutes. Then, they repeated the experiment, but this time they "rescued" the rats just before the point of drowning, dried them off and returned them to their cages, fed them, and let them play for a few days, and repeated the drowning experiment.

This time, the average survival time for these rats increased from 17 minutes to 36 hours! The Scientists explained that phenomenon by pointing out that the second time around, the rats had HOPE. They believed that they could survive this, because they had done so before.

So, we see that hope is very important. We need to have hope. So what Is HOPE? Let me give you the biblical definition of hope, because the word "hope" has come to have a different meaning today than that which was originally used in the New Testament. Today it indicates something of contingency; an expectancy that something will happen, but there is some question as to whether or not it will really occur. We say, "I hope it doesn't rain," or, "I hope I can make it to next payday," indicating some uneasiness or uncertainty about the future. But this is not the New Testament usage. In the New Testament it indicates an absolute certainty about the future, an attitude of eager expectancy, of confidence in God and His ability to do what He has promised. It is an attitude that says. "I have the resources in Yeshua to meet the world head-on."

When Christians hear about Preterism, they question, "Where is my hope," because they have been taught to believe that our hope is tied up in the Second Coming of Christ.

John Piper writes, "The blessed hope of all who believe is THE APPEARING OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST."

Jerry Falwell wrote, "Most born again Christians believe in the premillennial, pretribulational coming of Christ for all of His church. This is the blessed hope of the church. The anticipation of the imminent return of Christ to catch away His Bride is the one factor which distinguishes followers of Christ from all other inhabitants of this planet."

The Bible definitely teaches that the coming of Christ was a blessed hope:

    waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Yeshua the Christ, Titus 2:13 ESV

Here is the problem— the Second coming of Christ was the hope of the first century church, but it is a hope that has been fulfilled. We live in a different age than the original recipients of the New Testament letters. All through the New Testament we see two ages in contrast: "This age," and the "age to come."

    And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:32 ESV

The word "come" at the end of the verse is the Greek word mello, which means: " about to be." We could translate this: "the age about to come." About to come for whom? For the original audience, which was those in the first century.

    far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. Ephesians 1:21 ESV

Here again, we see the two ages. So, the New Testament speaks of two ages, "this age," and "the age to come." The understanding of these two ages and when they changed is fundamental to interpreting the Bible and to understanding what our hope is today.

The New Testament writers lived in the age that they called "this age." To the New Testament writers, "the age to come" was future, but it was very near because "this age" was about to end.

    Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 1 Corinthians 10:11 ESV

Paul said very plainly that the end of the ages was coming upon them, the first century saints. "This age," was about to end.

The "this age" of the Bible was the Old Covenant age, the Jewish age. That age came to an end with the destruction of the temple in AD 70. So, the New Testament writers lived in what the Bible calls "this age." We live in what the Bible calls, "the age to come." In the first century, the "this age," the age of the Old Covenant, was fading away and ended completely when the Jewish temple was destroyed in AD 70. The "this age" of the Bible is now ancient history.

With this in mind, let's trace the word "hope" through the New Testament. We find several things that were the hope of the early church, those who lived in what the Bible calls, "this age." And let's see if the teaching of Preterism destroys any of these hopes.

In the New Testament, we find several things that were objects of hope:

1. The Second Coming:

    waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Yeshua the Christ, Titus 2:13 ESV

    Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Yeshua the Christ. 1 Peter 1:13 ESV

    Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 1 John 3:2-3 ESV

So, we see that the Second Coming was a hope to those who lived in "this age".

2. The Resurrection:

Paul clearly taught that the resurrection was the hope of Israel and the New Testament saints:

    Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial." Acts 23:6 ESV

    having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. Acts 24:15 ESV

    For this reason, therefore, I have asked to see you and speak with you, since it is because of the hope of Israel that I am wearing this chain." Acts 28:20 ESV

    And now I stand here on trial because of my hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by Jews, O king! Why is it thought incredible by any of you that God raises the dead? Acts 26:6-8 ESV

It is clear from verse 6 that Paul sees the resurrection of the dead as that which fulfills, "my hope in the promise made by God to our fathers."

3. Righteousness was a hope of the New Testament church:

    For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. Galatians 5:5 ESV

4. Salvation was a hope of the New Testament church:

    But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8 ESV

5. Eternal life was a hope of the New Testament church:

    in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began Titus 1:2 ESV

    so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 ESV

Now, if we were to tell people that we have eternal life, salvation, and righteousness right now, would they ask us, "Where is my hope?" No, because they believe they have those things now. But eternal life, salvation, and righteousness were all a hope of those who lived in "this age." Eternal life, salvation, and righteousness became the full possession of the church at the Second Coming, which happened at the end of the Old Covenant age.

At the end of the Old Covenant age in AD 70, which was the last day (of the Old Covenant), several things happened:

1. Christ returned:

    I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Yeshua, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 Timothy 4:1 ESV

"Who is to"— is mello: who is about to come.

    For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; Hebrews 10:37 ESV

2. The resurrection occurred:

    Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." John 11:24 ESV

This was the "last day" of "this age," "the age to come" has no last days. So, the resurrection was to happen at the end of the Old Covenant age when the Lord returned.

3. The judgment occurred:

    Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. Matthew 13:40 ESV

Since the "this age" of the Bible ended in AD 70 with the destruction of the Temple and the Coming of the Lord, we must be in "the age to come." And if we are in "the age to come," then Christ has already returned, the Resurrection has already happened and the Judgement of the nations has taken place.

Notice what Yeshua said the believers would receive in the age to come:

    Yeshua said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. Mark 10:29-30 ESV

As we saw, eternal life was a "hope" to those who lived in "this age" but it is a present possession of all believers in the "age to come," which is the New Covenant age.

Now, since the Second Coming, the Resurrection, the Judgement, Eternal life, Salvation and Righteousness have already come, why should they be our hope? You don't hope for what you have:

    For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. Romans 8:24-25 ESV

As Preterists, we are not taking hope away; we are saying it is fulfilled. We have as a present possession what the early church hoped for. Have is way better than hope.

So, What Is Our Hope Today?

To those who do not believe in Yeshua, there is no hope:

    remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:12 ESV

But for all of us who have placed our trust in Yeshua, our hope is heaven. Remember what we said: "Biblical hope is not finger-crossing. It is a confident expectation of good things to come."

    For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1 NASB

Now whether you take the "tent" here to refer to the Old Covenant body or the physical body really doesn't matter for our purposes here, maybe it's both. The idea is that our home is in heaven. Believer, some day we will physically die, and when that happens, we will not go out of existence, and we will not go to the Lake of fire, we will go to heaven. This is our hope, to leave this physical world and it's trials and hardships and to dwell in heaven with our Lord. Our hope (hope meaning: "absolute certainty about the future") is that when we leave this body at death, we will be with the Lord in Heaven.

Those who are familiar with the Tanakh will remember the story of the visit of the Queen of Sheba with Solomon. The Queen of Sheba had heard of Solomon's greatness and glory and wisdom. Her subjects had tried to give her an idea of what it was like. They spoke vividly and strongly of Solomon's glory. But she simply could not believe it. So we read, in 1 Kings 10, that she determined to go see for herself. When she came, she listened to the wisdom of Solomon, who told her all that was in her heart. She asked him many different questions and she saw all of his glory, his apparel, and all the things attending his kingdom. And beholding all the glory of king Solomon, she exclaimed:

    Then she said to the king, "It was a true report which I heard in my own land about your words and your wisdom. "Nevertheless I did not believe the reports, until I came and my eyes had seen it. And behold, the half was not told me. You exceed in wisdom and prosperity the report which I heard. 1 Kings 10:6-7 NASB

"The half was not told me"— that will be the experience of those who go to heaven. The half of what heaven is cannot be told to you.

Where Is Heaven?

In answer to that, the Bible tells us that heaven is spiritual. Heaven is real; only it is in a different realm than that of the earth. We read in the Bible of the heavenly realm and of the earthly realm. The earthly realm is the realm of the physical, the material, the visible to our eyes, the realm that we can see, touch, smell, hear, and taste.

Heaven, on the other hand, is spiritual. It is heavenly. We cannot see it with these eyes. We cannot hear it with our present ears. We cannot feel it with our hands. We cannot taste or smell it. Heaven is not made of anything of this earth. Paul told the Greek philosophers:

    "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 17:24 NASB

Paul said this while standing before the Greek philosophers on Mars' Hill. The Greeks had made houses of stone for their gods. And they would give their gods various gifts: fruits and meat to eat. Perhaps the ancient idolaters would even provide their idol gods with swords and canoes and all sorts of equipment for the after-life. They conceived of the realm of the gods in terms of this earthly life. And Paul says, That is not the case; it is folly. Heaven is spiritual. Heaven is the place created by the eternal and the living God. It is the place where the angels live. It is the place, as we read in Hebrews, where the spirits of just men made perfect now dwell. It is a sanctuary, and it is glorious.

The difference between the heavenly and the earthly, the Bible tells us, is in terms of glory. Heaven is exalted. Heaven is high and lifted up—not in the physical sense, not that it is higher in altitude. But it is high, lifted up in majesty, lifted up in the glory of God, lifted up in the holiness of God. We read in Psalm 113:

    Who is like the LORD our God, Who is enthroned on high, Psalms 113:5 NASB

We read in Isaiah:

    For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite. Isaiah 57:15 NASB

And again, in Isaiah 63, we read,

    Look down from heaven and see from Your holy and glorious habitation; Where are Your zeal and Your mighty deeds? The stirrings of Your heart and Your compassion are restrained toward me. Isaiah 63:15 NASB

Heaven is the place of God's holiness and glory. Heaven is pure, holy, glorious. God must give you new eyes before you can see it.

What Is Heaven? Everywhere the Bible answers: Heaven is God's dwelling place. It is the place where we shall have perfect fellowship with the living and true God. That truth is like a golden thread running throughout all of the Scriptures. Repeatedly, we are told that heaven is exactly this: It is God's dwelling. It is where God's presence is fully revealed, and God's presence is fully enjoyed, at least as much as a creature can ever enjoy the blessed fellowship of the living God.

The Bible uses these terms to describe heaven: Thy holy habitation, Thy dwelling place, His holy dwelling, the height of His sanctuary. It speaks of God who dwells in the heavens. Heaven is the dwelling place of God, where the intimate life of God and life with God is to be enjoyed. The word "dwell" is such a rich word. It means much more than simply to live. When you say that this is where I dwell, you are not saying simply that that is where you are. But the word "dwell" conveys the idea of fellowship. Where you dwell is where you reveal who you are. You open up. You show your love, you share the intimate parts of your life. So, heaven is God's dwelling, the place where the presence and fellowship, the love and grace of God are made known. That is what makes heaven heaven. That is all the glory of heaven, the things that we cannot imagine. Notice what Paul says of heaven:

    Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 NASB

The Bible does not tell us much about heaven; not only because right now it is beyond our ability to comprehend, but also because God wants us to understand that heaven, as to its very heart, is God's dwelling. There is one central thing that makes heaven so blessed, so majestic, so awful in its splendor. That one thing is this: we shall see God.

That, believer, is our hope— heaven. According to 1 Thessalonians, when we die we will be taken to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. What a glorious hope that is.

    Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB

The words "caught up" are the Greek word harpazo, it means: "to snatch away." This is where the word "rapture" comes from. But certainly being "caught up" means something different than a levitation of the physical body from earth up into the atmosphere of the sky. Harpazo refers to the Christian being "caught up" without the body.

It is not the physical body that is raptured. It is the Christian himself who is raptured as he leaves his body behind at physical death and moves into the spiritual realm. The dead believers were resurrected when Christ returned, and all other Christians would be caught up at their physical death.

What greater hope could we have than to be taken to heaven to dwell with Christ for all eternity? This is the present day hope of the church, and Preterism does not deny it, but strongly affirms it.

Believers, we won't escape physical death—everybody dies:

    And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, Hebrews 9:27 NASB

But when we do die physically, we will move into the heavenly realm where we will live forever with the Lord! What a blessed hope

[robycop3]

  Please show us some unquestioned historical documentation that Jesus returned C. 70 AD, especially in the manner He Himself said-in great power & glory, SEEN BY ALL !

   Remember, He is to return in the same manner He left-simply descending.

[lea]

  Please show us some unquestioned historical documentation that Jesus returned C. 70 AD, especially in the manner He Himself said-in great power & glory, SEEN BY ALL !

   Remember, He is to return in the same manner He left-simply descending.

In a cloud, just as God came in a cloud in the OT.

The first Christians knew He came as promised. That's all that matters. Not because YOU didn't see it.

Jesus fulfilled His prophecy, but you make Him a false prophet with your distorted and clouded viewpoint.

[robycop3]

In a cloud, just as God came in a cloud in the OT.

The first Christians knew He came as promised. That's all that matters. Not because YOU didn't see it.

Jesus fulfilled His prophecy, but you make Him a false prophet with your distorted and clouded viewpoint.

HORSE FEATHERS !

He didn't leave in a cloud - He ascended til He vanished into a cloud, same as an airplane does.

  And He HAS NOT YET RETURNED ! Believe he has ? Please show us unquestionable historical documentation that He has.

[lea]

Again you don't understand prophecy.

https://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/13_26-27.htm

[robycop3]

Again you don't understand prophecy.

https://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/13_26-27.htm

Evidently, I understand it a LOT BETTER  you.

Acts 1:9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

  The NLT reads, After saying this, he was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see him.

  He vanished into a cloud, same as an airplane does. He was not lifted up in a cloud. That's not what the verse says. They saw Him til he entered the cloud.

[lea]

I'll post some of the previous link from the BereanBibleChurch so I can trump the troll with a real exegesis of Scripture to prove my p.o.v.

John has Jesus coming on a horse, not a cloud. So how can anyone say that Jesus is going to come exactly how He left when they read Acts 1:11? When you compare Scripture with Scripture, it just doesn't add up.

The emphasis of Acts 1:11 is that Christ's coming would be a cloud coming, just as He left in a cloud, so He would come in the clouds. This is an apocalyptic symbol for coming in judgement. Now that fits all the other Scriptures that we looked at about His coming. When Luke says that Jesus was taken up, and "a cloud received Him out of their sight," He was not telling us what the weather was like that day, but rather the part that the Father played in the ascension of Jesus. We will examine the idea of cloud comings later in more detail.

There is no Scripture that explicitly teaches that Jesus would return in a physical, bodily fashion. An understanding of the language of Scripture will help us see that His coming was not to be physical.

The study of Mark 13 could change your eschatological paradigm if you let it. I believe that this is one of the most significant chapters in the Bible on the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Understanding this chapter will change your view of the nature of the Second Coming.

In verses 21-23 of Mark 13, Jesus seems to stress that His coming will not be a physical, bodily coming. If someone says, "Here is Christ, or there," they were not to believe them. Why? If His coming was to be physical and bodily, why would someone not be able to say, "He is over there"? They were not to believe that, because His coming would not be physical and bodily, and yet it would be plainly seen. How would they see His coming? They would see it in the judgement that was to fall upon Jerusalem.

    "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. (Mark 13:24-25 NASB)

If you are not familiar with the apocalyptic language of Scripture, you will not understand what Christ is saying here. This language is common among the prophets. In apocalyptic language, great commotions and judgments upon earth are often represented by commotions and changes in the heavens. This language is not to be taken literally.

As we continue our study of Mark 13, we come to verse 26 and 27, which tell us what the Second Coming will be like:

    "And then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. (Mark 13:26 NASB)

When is "then"? "Then" refers to "those days" of verse 19. After the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was the Great Tribulation, then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds. The wording of this passage refers us back to the expression, "The Son of Man," found in Daniel 7:13:

    "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14 NASB)

Here we see Jesus, the Son of Man, coming to the Ancient of Days and receiving His everlasting kingdom. This prophecy was fulfilled at the Ascension:

[robycop3]

  The angels didn't say Jesus would return in that EXACT manner. They said, "in LIKE manner".

  Now, what was the MANNER of Jesus' departure ? He simply ASCENDED. He was seen til He entered a cloud. No great glory or celestial display is recorded in those Scriptures. But Jesus said He'd return IN GREAT POWER & GLORY. He certainly will appear different from how He did when He left, and apparently He will be seated upon a white horse.

  And His return WILL be physical, & seen by all. After he disposes of the beast's army, as well as of the beast & FP themselves, He will assume the rule of the world from Jerusalem, & will physically be here.

  And  these are all FUTURE events. Your silly pret stuff is pure fiction. You can't prove one word of it.

[lea]

Hey robyc3,
Looks like the KJV whoops your butt on this one!


Acts 1:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

[robycop3]

Hey robyc3,
Looks like the KJV whoops your butt on this one!


Acts 1:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

  It says "in like manner" same as many others do. "LIKE", not "EXACT" !