1 John 3:2, 3 and the Resurrection

[LetGodBeTrue]

We are told by many futurists that the resurrected body of Jesus is a clear picture of what we will experience in the resurrection.  The Apostles were among the first to see Jesus in His resurrected body yet John, many years later in his first epistle, confesses that even he had not ever seen Jesus as "He is" nor did he know what he and others would be like in the resurrection (1 John 3:2, 3). 

It was Jesus' actual, physical body that was raised from the tomb but it was not His glorified body--it was not what He was to be.  Although Jesus' body never saw decay (corruption), it still needed to be changed in order to be fitted for heaven.  The seed has to die so that that which is unlike what is planted can emerge.  Our bodies are from dust and to dust they return.  John's words were realized in AD 70 when Jesus came in judgment and made it possible for us to be like Him.  Even though our resurrected bodies are not like our physical bodies, they are actual and real even though not flesh and blood.
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[beforetime]

Jude I agree, and also believe mankind's destiny was not intended to spend eternity on earth. It seems to me that our heavenly Father didn't say, 'I didn't know that" when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Although it was the couple's free will to do so. There are those who believe this earth will eventually become a sinless paradise. However Jesus or the Apostle never implied the idea. However the scripture used to advocate it is "the Meek will inherit the earth".  Not realizing presently all things belong to the true believer, " whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come — all are yours. And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. 1 Corinthians 3:22-23 NKJV


Larry

[fish153]

We are told by many futurists that the resurrected body of Jesus is a clear picture of what we will experience in the resurrection.  The Apostles were among the first to see Jesus in His resurrected body yet John, many years later in his first epistle, confesses that even he had not ever seen Jesus as "He is" nor did he know what he and others would be like in the resurrection (1 John 3:2, 3). 

It was Jesus' actual, physical body that was raised from the tomb but it was not His glorified body--it was not what He was to be.  Although Jesus' body never saw decay (corruption), it still needed to be changed in order to be fitted for heaven.  The seed has to die so that that which is unlike what is planted can emerge.  Our bodies are from dust and to dust they return.  John's words were realized in AD 70 when Jesus came in judgment and made it possible for us to be like Him.  Even though our resurrected bodies are not like our physical bodies, they are actual and real even though not flesh and blood.
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The only thing that I would mention (and perhaps you have an explanation for this) is that Jesus "suddenly appeared" in the room with his disciples in John 20 and apparently did not use the door. He also disappeared while sitting at a table eating with the disciples from the road to Emmaus.  If this was not Jesus in his glorified body how did he walk through walls and disappear?  Just curious.

[LetGodBeTrue]

It seems as though most Christians, many perhaps without realizing it, believe that heaven is God's Plan B because Plan A was for man to dwell on the earth forever.  If living on the earth forever was God's Plan A for man, I am glad there was the need for Plan B!  Who would choose earth over heaven?  Sadly, if we begin "wrong," we end "wrong."  I don't find in the creation account that man was created eternal.  Uniting the false concept of an eternal man with physical death in the Fall is the basis for the incorrect understanding of the Resurrection of physical bodies and a need for an eternal Hell for the wicked.  If man is inherently eternal, then even the wicked must have an eternal dwelling place!  But since Adam died spiritually in the day that he ate the forbidden fruit and Christ, therefore, came to cure that sin death, there is no need for physical bodies to be resurrected.  Physical death was not a part of the Fall.

We see in John 3:16 that man must "have eternal life" (i.e. be given it), or he does not have it.  We all enter this world spiritually stillborn.  We are dead men walking!  Those not given eternal life, perish and their bodies return to the dust from whence they came.  For those given eternal life, physical death has no sting or victory because they have passed from death unto life in Christ.  We die (physically and our bodies return to dust) yet we live (spiritually); we live (spiritually), therefore we never die (spiritually).  In Adam all die--spiritually.  All IN Christ are made alive (spiritually).  When Christ, who had power over life and death, raised Himself from the dead, His body, which had not seen decay and could not see decay, returned to a condition still fitted for this world.  He had not yet ascended to the Father.  Even though those disciples saw His resuscitated body, they did not see Him as He was to be.  John clearly realized this and did not look upon the resurrected Lord's body as that which they would one day have.  This is evident in 1 John 3.  Even those who had seen His raised-from-the-dead body, had not yet seen Him as He was to be and how they were to be.  THEY were to one day soon see Him in His glory--and they were to be like Him.  When He returned to THEM as He had promised them He would (John 14), He received THEM (the first fruits) first of all unto Himself so that where He was THEY would be also--having been fitted for heaven at that time (i.e. AD 70).  That promise was NOT given to us.  We, however, join into it as the rest of the harvest.

[beforetime]

I agree there is no backup plan in God's original purpose in bringing many son's to glory in the image of His Son. Romans 8:28-30 Hebrews 2:10-13 "God's foreknowledge that he foreknows everything from before the beginning of creation." Isaiah 46: 9,10 Since the fall many believe God is spending His time, dancing to the Devil's tune as they say, to make things right. Or putting His unique unchanging purpose on hold till He does so. "Busying himself with the efforts to save the human race, or as many as possible."

[raggthyme13]

The only thing that I would mention (and perhaps you have an explanation for this) is that Jesus "suddenly appeared" in the room with his disciples in John 20 and apparently did not use the door. He also disappeared while sitting at a table eating with the disciples from the road to Emmaus.  If this was not Jesus in his glorified body how did he walk through walls and disappear?  Just curious.

Perhaps the same way he walked upon the water?

[CatHead]

Hi LetGodBeTrue,

We are told by many futurists that the resurrected body of Jesus is a clear picture of what we will experience in the resurrection.  The Apostles were among the first to see Jesus in His resurrected body yet John, many years later in his first epistle, confesses that even he had not ever seen Jesus as "He is" nor did he know what he and others would be like in the resurrection (1 John 3:2, 3). 

It was Jesus' actual, physical body that was raised from the tomb but it was not His glorified body--it was not what He was to be.  Although Jesus' body never saw decay (corruption), it still needed to be changed in order to be fitted for heaven.  The seed has to die so that that which is unlike what is planted can emerge.  Our bodies are from dust and to dust they return.  John's words were realized in AD 70 when Jesus came in judgment and made it possible for us to be like Him.  Even though our resurrected bodies are not like our physical bodies, they are actual and real even though not flesh and blood.
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1 John 3:2, 3 isn't saying that Christ's body changes, I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion? It's rather saying that our ability to see Christ depends on how much like him we are. 

In our mortal, carnal state we can aspire to be like Christ, but never fully be like him, therefore we can not see him as he is.  In our resurrected state, we will be "spiritual" (the opposite of carnal) and be able to see him as he is.

This is John most likely commenting on Psalms 17:15 which states the concept more clearly:

Psa 17:15  As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

[LetGodBeTrue]

Perhaps you do not believe this, Cathead, but many futurists believe that the resurrected Christ those disciples saw was a perfect reflection of what we shall be in the resurrection (which they incorrectly believe to be still future).  The point I was making was directed at them--that if those disciples, who had seen the resurrected Lord, still did not know what they would be nor what the Lord would be and they waited for that time, how do we then insist that the pre-ascension Christ is what our bodies will be like?

As for Psalm 17:15--The Septuagint Version (LXX), used by Jesus and the Apostles and later discarded by the Roman Catholic Church and replaced with the Masoretic Text, reads as follows:

"But I shall appear in righteousness before Thy face; I shall be satisfied when Thy glory appears."  There is no mention of awaking in His likeness. It would have to be inferred.  It is sad to me that so little is made of the LXX today.

[CatHead]

Hi LetGodBeTrue,

Perhaps you do not believe this, Cathead, but many futurists believe that the resurrected Christ those disciples saw was a perfect reflection of what we shall be in the resurrection (which they incorrectly believe to be still future).  The point I was making was directed at them--that if those disciples, who had seen the resurrected Lord, still did not know what they would be nor what the Lord would be and they waited for that time, how do we then insist that the pre-ascension Christ is what our bodies will be like?

As for Psalm 17:15--The Septuagint Version (LXX), used by Jesus and the Apostles and later discarded by the Roman Catholic Church and replaced with the Masoretic Text, reads as follows:

"But I shall appear in righteousness before Thy face; I shall be satisfied when Thy glory appears."  There is no mention of awaking in His likeness. It would have to be inferred.  It is sad to me that so little is made of the LXX today.

The concept is not lost in the LXX translation.  Righteousness is a gift of the resurrection and not obtainable in this lifetime.  Therefore, David is speaking of the resurrection.

Our ecstasy in the presence of Christ is not complete until we are gifted righteousness.  In much the same way as a physicist can appreciate Albert Einstein better than a layperson, a righteous man can appreciate Christ more fully than a non righteous.  Since none of us are righteous we can't fully know Christ in our present condition.  And since we will be righteous as Christ is righteous in the resurrection, we also can't fully know what we will be like either. 

This text has nothing to do with what 'body' we will have in the resurrection that I can tell.  And even if it did, John is saying that 'we can't know what we will be like'.  So I don't see how you can use this text as proof that one camp is right and the other wrong about what body is given in the resurrection.  It would be like two blind guys arguing over what a Picasso looks like.

[CatHead]

Hi again,

(which they incorrectly believe to be still future)

You do understand that something must first be dead in order to be resurrected correct?

You also understand that Paul is addressing a future resurrection from his perspective in passages such as Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15?  He isn't speaking of the 'spiritual resurrection' that occurs at the point of salvation.  This event is past for Paul and all the believers he is addressing in his letters.

So what is left?  Conjuring a disembodied spirit from Sheole is not a resurrection, because that spirit is not dead, only sleeping.

[LetGodBeTrue]

Does anyone NOT understand that death precedes resurrection?  Why would you ask such a question?

Paul is indeed addressing a future resurrection--a resurrection that was ABOUT TO take place.  He is addressing the fullness of the spiritual salvation that began when the first believed.  See Romans 13.  He told those of HIS day that it was THEN time for THEM to awake from sleep, that the night was far spent, that THEIR salvation was nearer when THEY first believed.  THEY were still destined for Hades to await that fullness of salvation that Jesus Himself spoke of in Luke 21--a salvation that affected personally those of HIS generation.

The righteous in Hades are physically dead and they are not yet fully fitted to be with Christ where He is.  Christ's coming after He completed His work of salvation in the heavenly temple and  having exited the heavenly Holy of Holies brought the fullness of their (and be extension our) salvation.  At their salvation, they were raised in newness of life (their salvation was fully assured and secured), but they were not able to enter the heavenly realm.  Christ told His disciples that He would return to THEM and receive THEM unto Himself that where He was THEY would be also.

This is the significance of Romans 13 and Luke 21.

[3 Resurrections]

There is scripture confirming the fact that Christ's flesh-and-bones body which was raised from the tomb was this glorified body that He stills retains to this day - "passed through the heavens" as Heb. 4:14 states, to continue as our advocate - our divine high priest in His resurrected, human form.  Our prayers depend upon this fact, as does our continued acceptance as Sons of God. 

John was NOT ignorant of what the risen, glorified body of Christ was like.  Nor was he ignorant of what the physically resurrected bodies of believers looked and felt like.  To claim he was ignorant of this is to insert something alien into the I John 3:2-3 text.  It says that, at that point in time, it had not yet been "manifested", or openly fulfilled concerning the incorruptible change of believers' bodies at the resurrection - the one they were anticipating in that generation at the end of the age.  They KNEW what they would be like, but it hadn't happened in real time for them yet.  They were patiently waiting for the "manifestation of the Sons of God", as Romans 8:19 says.  And as mentioned in the comments above, it was a resurrection that was ABOUT TO take place in the near future in Paul and John's time.  However, I believe this to be a physical resurrection described, not just a transfer of righteous souls to heaven from Hades.

One cannot pass over the reality of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints which circulated freely among the believers after Christ's resurrection.  They went into Jerusalem and were seen of many.  These resurrected saints had each received their glorified, incorruptible physical bodies, just as Christ had, never to die again.  John would have encountered some of these saints, being at Jerusalem during that time.

Our proof that this was Christ's glorified body that was shown to His disciples for 40 days is found by comparing John 7:38-39 with John 20:20-22 (Interlinear).  At the last day of the great feast, Jesus cried to the crowd that " 'He that believes on me, as said the scripture, rivers out of his belly shall flow of water living.'  But this He said concerning the Spirit, which were about to receive those believing on Him; for not yet was the Spirit Holy, because Jesus not yet was glorified."  In other words, once Jesus was glorified, THEN the Spirit would be given to believers - which was about to be given them not very long after Jesus spoke those words.

Now go to John 20:20-22.  Jesus had just ascended to the Father after He spoke with Mary Magdalene outside the tomb that morning, and had returned to earth in order to show Himself to the disciples that same day at evening.  After greeting them and showing them His hands and side, they rejoiced.  "Said therefore to them Jesus again, 'Peace to you: as has sent forth me the Father' (whom He had just been with earlier that morning) 'I also send you'  And this having said He breathed into [them] and says to them 'Receive [the] Spirit Holy:' "  So here we have the Spirit given.  This preceded the gift of the Spirit with the power to speak in tongues at Pentecost.  These two passages in John, taken together, prove that the disciples were at that moment in the presence of the glorified body of Christ, flesh and bones included.

John also gives testimony of this in John 1:14.  "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory; the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth."  When was Jesus given the designation of being "begotten of the Father"?  It was the day He ascended to the Father, that morning after His resurrection, when He told Mary Magdalene that He was ascending to the Father.  As it prophesied in Psalms 2:7, "Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee", which happened after the resurrection (as Acts 13:33 agrees).  To be "begotten" of God, in the fullest, most complete sense of it, is to stand in God's presence in a resurrected, incorruptible body, soul, and spirit.  Christ was absolutely the first to do this.  No exceptions.  When John wrote these words in John 1:14, Christ was still the only one who had yet done this.

The John 1:14 verse claims that they had seen Christ in His glory, in this resurrected, only-begotten-of-the-Father form.  All of this proves that John was NOT ignorant of what the glorified, resurrected body of Christ looked like. 

So, in I John 3:2-3, he is simply saying that the bodily resurrection hadn't happened yet for them when they would be revealed in their perfected, incorruptible body forms.  This would happen in AD 70, the timing of which Preterists are well aware, even though most deny the physical aspect of this that is included.

[raggthyme13]

I don't disagree with you 3 Res... But what are we to make of 2 Cor 5:16 and 1 Cor 15:45? Is Jesus in a "flesh and bone" form now or is He Spirit?

[3 Resurrections]

raggthyme13  -  I have encountered both of these texts before, raised as objections to Christ retaining His physically resurrected form after He ascended.

Here's some of the context with the first reference you gave, as rendered by the Interlinear.  II Cor. 4:14-17, "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if one for all died (both Jew and Gentile), then all died (all were dead in sin); and for all He died, that they who live no longer to themselves should live, but to Him who for them died and was raised again.  So that we from now no one know according to flesh; but if even we have known according to flesh Christ, yet now no longer we know [Him].  So that if anyone [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation: the old things passed away; lo, have become new all things:"

The theme of this entire context doesn't concern the nature of Christ's form at present, physical or otherwise, but the existence of the One New Man - the new creation consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles merged into one in Christ (as described in Gal. 6:15).  When it speaks of "knowing according to flesh Christ", the "flesh" is to be understood as similar in sense to Ishmael's case, who was born as a strictly physical descendant of Abraham - "born after the flesh", not of promise (Gal. 4:23).  Christ came into this world as a physical, fleshly descendant of Abraham, "born under the law", which is how the Jews of that generation knew Him, as one sharing a physical connection in the flesh with them as a fellow Jew.  But now, Paul says, the Corinthians and everyone else were not supposed to emphasize this aspect of Christ's ancestry anymore, as a Jewishman according to the flesh, but instead as one who "died for all", both Jew and Gentile.  Indeed, they were to regard NO ONE in a categorized fashion such as Jew and Gentile anymore.  The "all things that have passed away" and "have become new" was the New Covenant already in place at that time for believers under Christ.  This verse has nothing to do with Christ dumping His old resurrected body to become a new Spirit form after His ascension.

Next, your I Cor. 15:45 passage, "So also it has been written, 'Became the first man Adam a soul living', the last Adam a spirit quickening."  When was this ability to give quickened life handed over to Christ?  God did not wait until Christ had ascended to heaven to do this.  Even during His ministry on earth before His death, Christ was able to give not only physical life in resurrecting individuals, but to grant spiritual life as well.  "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life", He said.  His testimony in John 5:21 was to claim the ability given Him by God to quicken whoever He willed.  This ability He exercised while still in possession of His pre-crucifixion body.  Again, this I Cor. 15:45 verse does NOT describe Christ divesting Himself of His glorified, resurrected human form, in order to turn Himself into a Spirit form.  He had already promised to leave the gift of another Comforter behind - the Holy Spirit - when He left this world taking His glorified, resurrected body with Him as He "passed through the heavens" (Heb. 4:14).

If "we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones" (Eph. 5:30), this indicates to me that this flesh and bones body of Christ's was still in existence after the ascension at the time this was written to the Ephesians, and is also true for us today.

If "this SAME Jesus" was to come in like manner as He went into the heavens, that tells me that the SAME body form that left the Mount of Olives returned to it.  Same means same.

If Paul SAW the risen Christ, as Ananias testified, then I believe there was a glorified resurrected body of Christ still in existence to be seen. 

The mere fact that Christ could make His glorified, resurrected body disappear at will during that 40 days of manifesting Himself to His disciples tells me that this body of His would last forever, because "the things which are not seen are eternal" (II Cor. 4:18).

But most convincing of all to me is the entire Hebrews 7 chapter describing the "endless life" of the resurrected body of Christ (Heb. 7:16).  In stark contrast to the many priests who did NOT continue by reason of the death of their bodies, Christ "continueth ever" in His unchangeable priesthood (Heb. 7:24).  He is "perfected forevermore" in His glorified, resurrected body (Heb. 7:28).  We believers in our human state absolutely need a perfected high priest sitting beside God in a human form to act as our divine mediator.  A spirit alone as a liaison cannot accomplish that purpose.  We must have a mediator that can "lay a hand on us both" (Job 9:33) - that can form the bridge connecting both the human and the divine condition by existing in both simultaneously.

Here is one question that I would submit: At the end of human history when all those in Christ have joined Him, and there is no need for an intercessor once all are in God's presence, will Christ still need to retain His human body form as our mediator?  After all, we will be perfected totally at that point.  It's a question that can wait for an answer until then, but I wondered if anyone has any thoughts regarding this.

[doorknocker]

raggthyme13  -  I have encountered both of these texts before, raised as objections to Christ retaining His physically resurrected form after He ascended.

Here's some of the context with the first reference you gave, as rendered by the Interlinear.  II Cor. 4:14-17, "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if one for all died (both Jew and Gentile), then all died (all were dead in sin); and for all He died, that they who live no longer to themselves should live, but to Him who for them died and was raised again.  So that we from now no one know according to flesh; but if even we have known according to flesh Christ, yet now no longer we know [Him].  So that if anyone [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation: the old things passed away; lo, have become new all things:"

The theme of this entire context doesn't concern the nature of Christ's form at present, physical or otherwise, but the existence of the One New Man - the new creation consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles merged into one in Christ (as described in Gal. 6:15).  When it speaks of "knowing according to flesh Christ", the "flesh" is to be understood as similar in sense to Ishmael's case, who was born as a strictly physical descendant of Abraham - "born after the flesh", not of promise (Gal. 4:23).  Christ came into this world as a physical, fleshly descendant of Abraham, "born under the law", which is how the Jews of that generation knew Him, as one sharing a physical connection in the flesh with them as a fellow Jew.  But now, Paul says, the Corinthians and everyone else were not supposed to emphasize this aspect of Christ's ancestry anymore, as a Jewishman according to the flesh, but instead as one who "died for all", both Jew and Gentile.  Indeed, they were to regard NO ONE in a categorized fashion such as Jew and Gentile anymore.  The "all things that have passed away" and "have become new" was the New Covenant already in place at that time for believers under Christ.  This verse has nothing to do with Christ dumping His old resurrected body to become a new Spirit form after His ascension.

Next, your I Cor. 15:45 passage, "So also it has been written, 'Became the first man Adam a soul living', the last Adam a spirit quickening."  When was this ability to give quickened life handed over to Christ?  God did not wait until Christ had ascended to heaven to do this.  Even during His ministry on earth before His death, Christ was able to give not only physical life in resurrecting individuals, but to grant spiritual life as well.  "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life", He said.  His testimony in John 5:21 was to claim the ability given Him by God to quicken whoever He willed.  This ability He exercised while still in possession of His pre-crucifixion body.  Again, this I Cor. 15:45 verse does NOT describe Christ divesting Himself of His glorified, resurrected human form, in order to turn Himself into a Spirit form.  He had already promised to leave the gift of another Comforter behind - the Holy Spirit - when He left this world taking His glorified, resurrected body with Him as He "passed through the heavens" (Heb. 4:14).

If "we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones" (Eph. 5:30), this indicates to me that this flesh and bones body of Christ's was still in existence after the ascension at the time this was written to the Ephesians, and is also true for us today.

If "this SAME Jesus" was to come in like manner as He went into the heavens, that tells me that the SAME body form that left the Mount of Olives returned to it.  Same means same.

If Paul SAW the risen Christ, as Ananias testified, then I believe there was a glorified resurrected body of Christ still in existence to be seen. 

The mere fact that Christ could make His glorified, resurrected body disappear at will during that 40 days of manifesting Himself to His disciples tells me that this body of His would last forever, because "the things which are not seen are eternal" (II Cor. 4:18).

But most convincing of all to me is the entire Hebrews 7 chapter describing the "endless life" of the resurrected body of Christ (Heb. 7:16).  In stark contrast to the many priests who did NOT continue by reason of the death of their bodies, Christ "continueth ever" in His unchangeable priesthood (Heb. 7:24).  He is "perfected forevermore" in His glorified, resurrected body (Heb. 7:28).  We believers in our human state absolutely need a perfected high priest sitting beside God in a human form to act as our divine mediator.  A spirit alone as a liaison cannot accomplish that purpose.  We must have a mediator that can "lay a hand on us both" (Job 9:33) - that can form the bridge connecting both the human and the divine condition by existing in both simultaneously.

Here is one question that I would submit: At the end of human history when all those in Christ have joined Him, and there is no need for an intercessor once all are in God's presence, will Christ still need to retain His human body form as our mediator?  After all, we will be perfected totally at that point.  It's a question that can wait for an answer until then, but I wondered if anyone has any thoughts regarding this.

Does Christ have a body?

Definitely,  ....1 Corinthians 12,   27

Now you are the body of Christ........I take it , that means the saints.....


How does He come or appear.....

2 Thessalonians 1,  10

....when He comes on that day to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS (His body), and to be marveled at IN ALL 

who have believed (His body)......