You've Gotta Be Kidding, Right?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Or is Jude the only book written "to" us, while the rest are written "for" us?
Let's be consistent. lol

Actually, it would be best if we addressed every book individually, and understood its author, audience, themes, etc.

I mean, that's basically what happens in a Bible class.  Why are we lazy in our personal lives?

Jarrod

[fish153]

The question often arises from futurists concerning the implications of preterism:  "Is this all there is?"  In his book, Behind the Veil of Moses (p. 445) Martin responds:

Those who have been looking to be "raptured" out of this evil world feel that Preterism robs them of their "blessed hope."  Yet by claiming the the you, we and us of the New Testament refer to our current generation, we have effectively robbed that same blessed hope from the New Testament saints--the very people to whom it was promised!  As someone once said, when we read the New Testament we are reading someone else's mail.   This is literally true of the letters to churches and individuals.  None of us are members of the church at Galatia, or Ephesus, or Thessalonica, etc., to which the "mail" was addressed.   Although the Bible was written for us, it was not written to us.  From our perspective, the Bible is a history book--but it is not a dead history book:

For the word of God is living and powerful,, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of the soul and the spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.  (Heb. 4:12)

Not written to us?  Hmmm...

"Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance". (Jude 1)

Or is Jude the only book written "to" us, while the rest are written "for" us?
Let's be consistent. lol

Just because this particular description can be applied to all believers of all time does not mean that Jude didn't have specific disciples in mind.. saints living at the time he wrote it. They were dealing with very real issues in their time which he then goes on to detail. These men he describes were spots in their love feasts, and Enoch prophesied of these!

Notice something interesting.. Jude reminds his contemporaries of how the apostles told them about these mockers who would surely come in the last time:

But beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts...


It cannot be denied that Jude was writing to them about their current circumstances. We can take much from it in principle, but it was obviously not directly written to us. They were then in the last time, as evidenced by the mockers in their midst.

Martin was right.. we rob from first century believers when we take their mail and address it to ourselves.

raggthyme--

I believe the New Testament (and all of the Bible for that matter) is arranged like a large arrow pointing to the end, with Revelation being the arrowhead.  2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John and Jude are right before Revelation. Why? Because there will be a great apostasy right before the appearance of Christ the second time.  Jude is not written to the First Century----Jude, not knowing how long the Church Age would last, may have thought he was writing to contemporaries---but in reality he was writing to all Christians throughout the centuries.  His letter is addressed:

"To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ".  That is every believer. I have posted before how Paul tells the Colossians to pass his letter to them on to the Laodiceans.  He asked that the letter written to the Laodiceans be read to the Colossians.  Those letters were not just meant for one church to hear---they are written to all centuries of Christians.

The fallacy of believing that the NT is only written to those then alive can be carried to the extreme. There have been a couple of people posting in other threads who teach John chapters 13-17 are only written to 12 men. That is utterly ridiculous. Jesus even prays for all of those "who will believe in me.." in his great prayer of John 17.

The Bridegroom is going to return but you will have no oil in your lamps.  You are not watching---you are not waiting--you are not believing what Jesus clearly taught. 1 john 3 appears to teach that there will be "some" believers who will shrink back in shame when Jesus returns. But those who are looking forward to his return will keep themselves, and not be ashamed when he appears:

"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.  All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure". (1 John 3:2,3)

Has Christ already appeared? Are we all like him?  No--we watch with great anticipation for his coming! Have we "seen him as he is"? No--we have a spiritual foretaste--and "though we have not seen Him we love Him". The verse above says that all that have this hope within them purify themselves, expecting that He could appear at any time! It's sad to think that there will be one group of "believers" in the back of the room at the wedding feast--they will be deeply embarrassed. They have been teaching other Christians that there is no need to watch and pray for the return of Christ. They will not be hated by the Lord---Jesus loves them--he will just be very disappointed in them.

[raggthyme13]

The question often arises from futurists concerning the implications of preterism:  "Is this all there is?"  In his book, Behind the Veil of Moses (p. 445) Martin responds:

Those who have been looking to be "raptured" out of this evil world feel that Preterism robs them of their "blessed hope."  Yet by claiming the the you, we and us of the New Testament refer to our current generation, we have effectively robbed that same blessed hope from the New Testament saints--the very people to whom it was promised!  As someone once said, when we read the New Testament we are reading someone else's mail.   This is literally true of the letters to churches and individuals.  None of us are members of the church at Galatia, or Ephesus, or Thessalonica, etc., to which the "mail" was addressed.   Although the Bible was written for us, it was not written to us.  From our perspective, the Bible is a history book--but it is not a dead history book:

For the word of God is living and powerful,, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of the soul and the spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.  (Heb. 4:12)

Not written to us?  Hmmm...

"Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance". (Jude 1)

Or is Jude the only book written "to" us, while the rest are written "for" us?
Let's be consistent. lol

Just because this particular description can be applied to all believers of all time does not mean that Jude didn't have specific disciples in mind.. saints living at the time he wrote it. They were dealing with very real issues in their time which he then goes on to detail. These men he describes were spots in their love feasts, and Enoch prophesied of these!

Notice something interesting.. Jude reminds his contemporaries of how the apostles told them about these mockers who would surely come in the last time:

But beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts...


It cannot be denied that Jude was writing to them about their current circumstances. We can take much from it in principle, but it was obviously not directly written to us. They were then in the last time, as evidenced by the mockers in their midst.

Martin was right.. we rob from first century believers when we take their mail and address it to ourselves.

raggthyme--

I believe the New Testament (and all of the Bible for that matter) is arranged like a large arrow pointing to the end, with Revelation being the arrowhead.  2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John and Jude are right before Revelation. Why? Because there will be a great apostasy right before the appearance of Christ the second time.  Jude is not written to the First Century----Jude, not knowing how long the Church Age would last, may have thought he was writing to contemporaries---but in reality he was writing to all Christians throughout the centuries.  His letter is addressed:

"To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ".  That is every believer. I have posted before how Paul tells the Colossians to pass his letter to them on to the Laodiceans.  He asked that the letter written to the Laodiceans be read to the Colossians.  Those letters were not just meant for one church to hear---they are written to all centuries of Christians.

The fallacy of believing that the NT is only written to those then alive can be carried to the extreme. There have been a couple of people posting in other threads who teach John chapters 13-17 are only written to 12 men. That is utterly ridiculous. Jesus even prays for all of those "who will believe in me.." in his great prayer of John 17.

The Bridegroom is going to return but you will have no oil in your lamps.  You are not watching---you are not waiting--you are not believing what Jesus clearly taught. 1 john 3 appears to teach that there will be "some" believers who will shrink back in shame when Jesus returns. But those who are looking forward to his return will keep themselves, and not be ashamed when he appears:

"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.  All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure". (1 John 3:2,3)

Has Christ already appeared? Are we all like him?  No--we watch with great anticipation for his coming! Have we "seen him as he is"? No--we have a spiritual foretaste--and "though we have not seen Him we love Him". The verse above says that all that have this hope within them purify themselves, expecting that He could appear at any time! It's sad to think that there will be one group of "believers" in the back of the room at the wedding feast--they will be deeply embarrassed. They have been teaching other Christians that there is no need to watch and pray for the return of Christ. They will not be hated by the Lord---Jesus loves them--he will just be very disappointed in them.

fish,
I really do see your heart here.. and I appreciate it. You really do care, I can tell that much. I have to say there was a time in my Christian walk when I believed as you do. And I remember when I first came to the Lord I would anticipate his coming each and every day. So much so that at times I thought I was actually hearing the trumpet sounding and I would wait at the window like a little child waits for Santa... with overwhelming joy and excitement! But I obviously do not believe that way anymore. Why? Because I have moved away from the word of God into my own thinking? No, but because I have read the word for the first time apart from the teaching I had received ever since I was saved from my sin. I grew up (in the Lord) in a very dispensational church which taught us to read the word as if it were addressed directly to us. Every "ye" was to me! I claimed it all. But when I stepped out of that church and looked honestly at everything written I realized it was to real people in real situations in that day that the apostles wrote.

You say "Jude is not written to the First Century".. this shows how much your paradigm controls your interpretation of scripture. Step back for a moment and see, Lord willing.. Jude is writing a letter to real people in his time, these are the ones who originally received his letter, these are his contemporaries.

He says, not me, that they had men feasting with them.. (men who were before prophesied, that they should come in the last time). I must ask.. can you not see that the saints who first received this letter (the first century saints) were dealing directly with these mockers? I guess we have to start here to get to the root of this debate.

Were these "end time" mockers present in the first century when this letter was written?

[fish153]

The question often arises from futurists concerning the implications of preterism:  "Is this all there is?"  In his book, Behind the Veil of Moses (p. 445) Martin responds:

Those who have been looking to be "raptured" out of this evil world feel that Preterism robs them of their "blessed hope."  Yet by claiming the the you, we and us of the New Testament refer to our current generation, we have effectively robbed that same blessed hope from the New Testament saints--the very people to whom it was promised!  As someone once said, when we read the New Testament we are reading someone else's mail.   This is literally true of the letters to churches and individuals.  None of us are members of the church at Galatia, or Ephesus, or Thessalonica, etc., to which the "mail" was addressed.   Although the Bible was written for us, it was not written to us.  From our perspective, the Bible is a history book--but it is not a dead history book:

For the word of God is living and powerful,, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of the soul and the spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.  (Heb. 4:12)

Not written to us?  Hmmm...

"Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance". (Jude 1)

Or is Jude the only book written "to" us, while the rest are written "for" us?
Let's be consistent. lol

Just because this particular description can be applied to all believers of all time does not mean that Jude didn't have specific disciples in mind.. saints living at the time he wrote it. They were dealing with very real issues in their time which he then goes on to detail. These men he describes were spots in their love feasts, and Enoch prophesied of these!

Notice something interesting.. Jude reminds his contemporaries of how the apostles told them about these mockers who would surely come in the last time:

But beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts...


It cannot be denied that Jude was writing to them about their current circumstances. We can take much from it in principle, but it was obviously not directly written to us. They were then in the last time, as evidenced by the mockers in their midst.

Martin was right.. we rob from first century believers when we take their mail and address it to ourselves.

raggthyme--

I believe the New Testament (and all of the Bible for that matter) is arranged like a large arrow pointing to the end, with Revelation being the arrowhead.  2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John and Jude are right before Revelation. Why? Because there will be a great apostasy right before the appearance of Christ the second time.  Jude is not written to the First Century----Jude, not knowing how long the Church Age would last, may have thought he was writing to contemporaries---but in reality he was writing to all Christians throughout the centuries.  His letter is addressed:

"To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ".  That is every believer. I have posted before how Paul tells the Colossians to pass his letter to them on to the Laodiceans.  He asked that the letter written to the Laodiceans be read to the Colossians.  Those letters were not just meant for one church to hear---they are written to all centuries of Christians.

The fallacy of believing that the NT is only written to those then alive can be carried to the extreme. There have been a couple of people posting in other threads who teach John chapters 13-17 are only written to 12 men. That is utterly ridiculous. Jesus even prays for all of those "who will believe in me.." in his great prayer of John 17.

The Bridegroom is going to return but you will have no oil in your lamps.  You are not watching---you are not waiting--you are not believing what Jesus clearly taught. 1 john 3 appears to teach that there will be "some" believers who will shrink back in shame when Jesus returns. But those who are looking forward to his return will keep themselves, and not be ashamed when he appears:

"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.  All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure". (1 John 3:2,3)

Has Christ already appeared? Are we all like him?  No--we watch with great anticipation for his coming! Have we "seen him as he is"? No--we have a spiritual foretaste--and "though we have not seen Him we love Him". The verse above says that all that have this hope within them purify themselves, expecting that He could appear at any time! It's sad to think that there will be one group of "believers" in the back of the room at the wedding feast--they will be deeply embarrassed. They have been teaching other Christians that there is no need to watch and pray for the return of Christ. They will not be hated by the Lord---Jesus loves them--he will just be very disappointed in them.

fish,
I really do see your heart here.. and I appreciate it. You really do care, I can tell that much. I have to say there was a time in my Christian walk when I believed as you do. And I remember when I first came to the Lord I would anticipate his coming each and every day. So much so that at times I thought I was actually hearing the trumpet sounding and I would wait at the window like a little child waits for Santa... with overwhelming joy and excitement! But I obviously do not believe that way anymore. Why? Because I have moved away from the word of God into my own thinking? No, but because I have read the word for the first time apart from the teaching I had received ever since I was saved from my sin. I grew up (in the Lord) in a very dispensational church which taught us to read the word as if it were addressed directly to us. Every "ye" was to me! I claimed it all. But when I stepped out of that church and looked honestly at everything written I realized it was to real people in real situations in that day that the apostles wrote.

You say "Jude is not written to the First Century".. this shows how much your paradigm controls your interpretation of scripture. Step back for a moment and see, Lord willing.. Jude is writing a letter to real people in his time, these are the ones who originally received his letter, these are his contemporaries.

He says, not me, that they had men feasting with them.. (men who were before prophesied, that they should come in the last time). I must ask.. can you not see that the saints who first received this letter (the first century saints) were dealing directly with these mockers? I guess we have to start here to get to the root of this debate.

Were these "end time" mockers present in the first century when this letter was written?

raggthyme--

I think you misunderstand. I do indeed believe Jude was writing to First Century believers. Jude had no way of knowing how long the church age would last. But, as Peter tells us in 2 Peter, these writings became "scriptures", even though those writing them may not have realized that God would use that writing throughout the whole church age. Peter calls Paul's writings "scripture".

And I believe this is the case with all of the books in the New Testament. Some of them may be addressed to "Timothy" or "Titus" or even "my most excellent Theophilus" (as Luke and Acts are), but God intended them for millions of people. The Bible is a love letter from God to us.  If we start saying "Oh, this part isn't written to me" you are literally spurning the words of God which are written directly to Christians.

You should consider that, for in many ways it is "leaving your first love".  I have been a Christian for many years, and I have never lost the excitement of watching for Christ's return. I do believe that he can literally come at any time.  I believe Jesus taught that.

[raggthyme13]

fish,

I must disagree. There is a big difference between the Bible being written to vs. for us. It would be silly to say (for instance) that Paul was writing specifically to you when he wrote to Timothy, "When you come bring the cloak that I left at Troas." The letter was to Timothy and preserved for us... for our learning! See the difference?

I ask again,

Do you believe these "mockers" whom Jude spoke about actually ate and drank with those first-century Christians?
Do you believe Peter spoke about them as well?