Vasectomy

[DaveW]

You can do mutual masturbation or oral

OK .....

but the Lord forbids you to do intercourse if you get a vas.

Chapter and verse please. If it is a blanket "applies to everyone" kind of prohibition it HAS to be backed up by scripture. 

If it is a personal prohibition, (yes HE does that sometimes) then keep it to yourself.

ETA:

If it is a personal thing - it also needs your wife's full agreement.

1 Cor 7.4b the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

[SuperEddy]

You can do mutual masturbation or oral

OK .....

but the Lord forbids you to do intercourse if you get a vas.

Chapter and verse please. If it is a blanket "applies to everyone" kind of prohibition it HAS to be backed up by scripture. 

If it is a personal prohibition, (yes HE does that sometimes) then keep it to yourself.

Dave W:  THIS IS THE VERY THING I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG === MATT 19:10-12.  More than that: It is my personal communication with the Lord.  That is what I've been trying to say all along == from my first post!  That's all I've got!
SE

[DaveW]

So this is personal.  Do you have your wife's agreement?

Do you think it applies to everyone?

[SuperEddy]

So this is personal.  Do you have your wife's agreement?

Do you think it applies to everyone?

Dave W:  IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE!  IF YOU GET AS VAS, YOUR SEX LIFE IS AS GOOD AS TRASH!!
SE

[DaveW]

Dave W:  IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE!

Says who?  You MUST have biblical support for such a statement.

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that it was for everyone and not just for you personally?

[SuperEddy]

Dave W:  IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE!

Says who?  You MUST have biblical support for such a statement.

Dave W: MATT 19:10-12 THAT'S WHAT I'VE GOT!!  That is what I've been trying to say all along!  That is what I've been trying to say from my first forum post!  Read my first (starting) post again.  It requires some interpretation and critical thinking.  My message is real!  My warning is real!  I need for you to have an open mind!  If you want an "open-and-shut" explanation, I can't give it to you, but I CAN point the way!
SE

[DaveW]

Matt 19 does NOT say that.  Not by a long shot.  It is NOT talking about people already or still married.

You have come up with a "private intrepretation" that is prohibited according to this:

2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV)  knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

So NO, that does not hold up to scriptural scrutiny. (btw - scriptural prophecy usually is NOT foretelling the future but is for application to a current situation)

I will ask again: Does your wife agree with this?

[SuperEddy]

Matt 19 does NOT say that.  Not by a long shot.  It is NOT talking about people already or still married.

You have come up with a "private intrepretation" that is prohibited according to this:

2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV)  knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

So NO, that does not hold up to scriptural scrutiny. (btw - scriptural prophecy usually is NOT foretelling the future but is for application to a current situation)

I will ask again: Does your wife agree with this?

Dave W: I got divorced ten years ago == I am forbidden to re-marry on account of my divorce.
SE

[DaveW]

Well if you are divorced you certainly should not be having sex with anyone. 

Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons?  Has your ex wife remarried?

[SuperEddy]

================== ATTENTION ===========================

Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue?  As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies.  I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist.  I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures.  Please read my posts and feel free to respond.  Thank you!

SuperEddy

[SuperEddy]

Well if you are divorced you certainly should not be having sex with anyone. 

Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons?  Has your ex wife remarried?

No, not Biblical.  Yes, she has.  I forgive her.
SE

[SuperEddy]

================== ATTENTION ===========================

Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue?  As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies.  I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist.  I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures.  Please read my posts and feel free to respond.  Thank you!

SuperEddy

PS == See my first post.
SE

[DaveW]

Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons?  Has your ex wife remarried?

No, not Biblical.  Yes, she has.  I forgive her.

If she has remarried and the divorce was not for biblically acceptable reasons then she has committed adultery against you by re-marrying.  That makes it a biblically acceptable divorce and leaves you free to re-marry if you wish.

[SuperEddy]

Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons?  Has your ex wife remarried?

No, not Biblical.  Yes, she has.  I forgive her.

If she has remarried and the divorce was not for biblically acceptable reasons then she has committed adultery against you by re-marrying.  That makes it a biblically acceptable divorce and leaves you free to re-marry if you wish.

Dave W:  The Lord has told me otherwise == I am NOT free to re-marry!
SE

[SuperEddy]

In modern-day terms: "Those men who deliberately make themselves sterile in order to avoid fathering any children or fathering more children are forbidden by the Lord from have sex in their marriage, and, if they have not fathered ANY children, are forbidden from having sex for the rest of their lives."

========= Welcome Scientific Christians Everywhere!!! ======================

I want to show that the above statement is or can be Biblicaly justified and supported by MATT 19:9-12 (it may be false).  I want to examine this issue scientifically and with prayer and Bible study.  There may be other Bible verses to consider.

Let's begin with a series of examples and observations of phenomena from induction and probability:

1)  Eunuchs who are born that way have no secondary sexual development and are unable to have sex.
2) From "1": They can get secondary sexual characteristics with hormone treatments and then are able to have sex.  I know of no sexual restrictions on them.
3) There are those who "act like eunuchs for the kingdom's sake" == They don't have sex.
4) Personal Example:  A woman friend became sterile ACCIDENTALLY.  There were no sexual restrictions on her == I think this is true of both men and women accidentally sterilized.
5)  Personal example:  A man had several children then got a vasectomy.  His wife refused to have sex with him forever.
6)  Personal Example: From "5": He divorced and re-married.  He had no problems getting sex.
7)  Personal Example: A man had never fathered kids and got a vasectomy.  There was always some "excuse" why he could never get any sex.

In all of these examples "sex" means "intercourse"

If anyone has more examples and observations, please add them or refute them or give counter-examples.

SE

[SuperEddy]

========== Attention: ===================================

Are there any readers who have had a vasectomy or know of someone who has?

Would you be willing to share your experiences or theirs?

I'd like to hear from you!

Thank you!
SE

[SuperEddy]

Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons?  Has your ex wife remarried?

No, not Biblical.  Yes, she has.  I forgive her.

If she has remarried and the divorce was not for biblically acceptable reasons then she has committed adultery against you by re-marrying.  That makes it a biblically acceptable divorce and leaves you free to re-marry if you wish.

Dave W:  Please see LUKE 16:18.  How do you read it?
SE

[DaveW]

Dave W:  Please see LUKE 16:18.  How do you read it?

You don't like that post of mine do you?

How do I read it?  As follows (the english does not do the Greek justice)

Everyone who divorces his wife in order to marry another commits adultery...

One thing you need to understand about the teachings of Our Lord and the commands of the OT: Jesus was a Jewish male.  He was (according to Galatians) born "under the law." So for Him to teach ANYTHING in opposition to the Law was sinful and Hebrews teaches He never sinned. Which means He never taught against the Law.  And the Law allowed divorce and remarriage in certain situations. 

If you read Matthew's version of that verse another phrase is added:

Matthew 5:32  but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The fact that Luke did not record that phrase (or perhaps it was lost from the text due to scribal error) does not negate the fact that it was there and perfectly lines up with the Law:

Deuteronomy 24:1  When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,

You cannot cherry pick your verses to develop a doctrine.  You must look at ALL applicable passages and make sure your doctrine fits EVERY ONE of them.

Now you claim God told you to not remarry.  Fine.  You do not have to.  But realize that "word" applies ONLY TO YOU and not anyone else.

But seriously, I question whether it really was God speaking to you.

[DaveW]

================== ATTENTION ===========================

Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue?  As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies.  I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist.  I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures.  Please read my posts and feel free to respond.  Thank you!

SuperEddy

OK - I have an engineering degree (Mich State 1977) and worked for 20 years as a design engineer in the Tool and Die industlry.

[Alan]

================== ATTENTION ===========================

Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue?  As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies.  I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist.  I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures.  Please read my posts and feel free to respond.  Thank you!

SuperEddy

Just glad that Christ didn't look to our credentials in order to gain relationship with Him 


Sometimes the wisdom that has been given by God FAR exceeds that of any well educated man or woman, especially when approaching Biblical truths.


God qualifies the unqualified 

[SuperEddy]

Dave W:  Please see LUKE 16:18.  How do you read it?

You don't like that post of mine do you?

How do I read it?  As follows (the english does not do the Greek justice)

Everyone who divorces his wife in order to marry another commits adultery...

One thing you need to understand about the teachings of Our Lord and the commands of the OT: Jesus was a Jewish male.  He was (according to Galatians) born "under the law." So for Him to teach ANYTHING in opposition to the Law was sinful and Hebrews teaches He never sinned. Which means He never taught against the Law.  And the Law allowed divorce and remarriage in certain situations. 

If you read Matthew's version of that verse another phrase is added:

Matthew 5:32  but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The fact that Luke did not record that phrase (or perhaps it was lost from the text due to scribal error) does not negate the fact that it was there and perfectly lines up with the Law:

Deuteronomy 24:1  When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,

You cannot cherry pick your verses to develop a doctrine.  You must look at ALL applicable passages and make sure your doctrine fits EVERY ONE of them.

Now you claim God told you to not remarry.  Fine.  You do not have to.  But realize that "word" applies ONLY TO YOU and not anyone else.

But seriously, I question whether it really was God speaking to you.

Dave W:  MATT 5:32 is OK  But also consider MATT 19:7,8 == Jesus did not contradict the law, here, He made it stricter!!  Any man who divorces his wife, except for reason of fornication, and re-marries commits adultery.  More:  That "fornication" is repeated and on-going, not just once!
SE

[SuperEddy]

================== ATTENTION ===========================

Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue?  As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies.  I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist.  I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures.  Please read my posts and feel free to respond.  Thank you!

SuperEddy

Just glad that Christ didn't look to our credentials in order to gain relationship with Him 


Sometimes the wisdom that has been given by God FAR exceeds that of any well educated man or woman, especially when approaching Biblical truths.


God qualifies the unqualified 

Alan:  I agree with you and Jesus would too!!  I'm upset that I'm not getting a fair discussion and analysis of my concerns about vasectomy.  The Jewish religionists and pharisees rejected Jesus but many of the common Jews accepted Him.  Even today, my friends from "Jews For Jesus" can hardly believe that it was the high-ranking Jews who had Jesus crucified!

I need to address Christians who have an open mind and are not so quick to jump down my throat.  I need them to look at facts in the world AND Biblical facts.  I need them to use their minds and their spirits.

Alan, are you willing to work with me?  I've been shown something of devastating importance by the Lord.  I can't do it alone.  I need the Christian community and you.

Thank you,
SE

[DaveW]

Look SE - I have your engineering credentials.  And I think many of the people I interact with here and on other sites would consider me a fair judge of scripture; even if they do not agree with my positions.

I am not "jumping down your throat." I am trying to get you to see a larger picture than what you are looking at right now.

You claim

I've been shown something of devastating importance by the Lord.

I am asking what tests you have put this revelation thru to prove it actually is from the Lord?
What tests have you put this thru to say it is for the church at large and not just yourself?

[SuperEddy]

Look SE - I have your engineering credentials.  And I think many of the people I interact with here and on other sites would consider me a fair judge of scripture; even if they do not agree with my positions.

I am not "jumping down your throat." I am trying to get you to see a larger picture than what you are looking at right now.

You claim

I've been shown something of devastating importance by the Lord.

I am asking what tests you have put this revelation thru to prove it actually is from the Lord?
What tests have you put this thru to say it is for the church at large and not just yourself?

Dave W:  My whole purpose of getting on-line is to try and explore this question with the Christian community.  Yes, I claim "devastating importance..."   A few minutes ago, I got a message from a woman giving me a counter-example to the "marriage"-part of my thesis.  Until I figure that part out I will withdraw that part. 

To answer your questions:
1) "What Test to Show From Lord?":  It is my personal message from the Lord.  I don't know.  That's why I'm on-line == To find that answer!
2) "Tests/Church/Not Just Self":  None.  I don't know.  I'm still trying to find the answer!

"Vasectomy" is not an easy subject to discuss!!! (Least of all with the Church!!!)

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

[DaveW]

To answer your questions:
1) "What Test to Show From Lord?":  It is my personal message from the Lord.  I don't know.  That's why I'm on-line == To find that answer!

GOOD!!  Let me help you.  Here is a list of 9 "tests" for any revelation or prophetic word to see if it really from the Lord or not.  These are taken from Derek Prince's booklet "How to Judge Prophecy."

Nine Scriptural Principles For Judging Prophecy

A. 1 Cor. 14:3—The end purpose of true New Testament prophecy is threefold:
edification, exhortation, comfort. Anything which does not achieve these
purposes, or fall within these limitations is not true prophecy.
     1. Jer. 1:10—Sometimes "rooting out" and "pulling down" precede "planting";
     "destroying" and "throwing down" precede "building."
     2. 2 Cor. 10:8; 13:10—The end purpose of ministry to God's people is always
     edification.

B. 2 Tim. 3:16; Is. 8:19–20—All true prophecy always agrees with the letter and the
spirit of Scripture. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself (compare 2 Cor.
1:17–20).

C. John 16:13–14; Rev. 19:10—All true prophecy always exalts and glorifies Jesus
Christ and gives Him complete preeminence (compare Col. 1:18).

D. Rom. 14:17; Gal. 5:22–23; Matt. 7:15–16—True prophecy produces fruit in
character and conduct that agrees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness
comes first.
     1. False prophets (wolves in sheep's clothing) are likewise identified by their
     fruits: e.g., pride, arrogance, boastfulness, exaggeration, dishonesty,
     covetousness, financial irresponsibility, licentiousness, immorality, addictive
     appetites, broken marriage vows, broken homes (compare Matt. 7:21–23;
     2 Pet. 2:12–15).
     2. Num. 23:10; Josh. 13:22—Balaam set forth as a warning of a prophet
     corrupted by wrong motives (compare 2 Pet. 2:15–16).

E. Deut. 18:20–22—If prophecy contains predictions concerning the future, and
these are not fulfilled, the prophecy did not come from God.
Rom. 12:6—Sometimes a person prophesying begins in the Holy Spirit but
oversteps his "measure of faith."

F. Deut. 13:1–5—Even if prophecy contains correct predictions or supernatural
revelations, it is not from God if its effect is to promote disobedience against God
and the Scriptures.
Acts 16:16–18—By the "spirit of divination" this girl supernaturally declared the
truth concerning Paul and Silas, but she was a tool of Satan.

G. 2 Cor. 3:17—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, produces liberty, not
bondage.
     1. Contrast the following: Rom. 8:15—"Bondage"; 1 Cor. 14:33—"Confusion";
     2 Tim. 1:7—"Fear"
     2. True prophecy never promotes spiritual dictatorship.

H. 2 Cor. 3:6—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, will always inject fresh life
into a meeting, and harmonize with the overall purposes of God.

I. 1 John 2:27—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, is attested by the Holy
Spirit within each believer who hears it.

2) "Tests/Church/Not Just Self":  None.  I don't know.  I'm still trying to find the answer!

Go thru the above list first.  If it passes those tests this one should start to become clear. If it does not pass, then forget it.

"Vasectomy" is not an easy subject to discuss!!! (Least of all with the Church!!!)

Any subject of a sexual nature is difficult to discuss in church. When was the last sermon you heard on masturbation?  On the lasting effects of childhood sexual abuse? 

[Alan]

Hi SuperEddy, I must say, I have to agree with Dave here as I've yet to see God contradict His written word.

[SuperEddy]

To answer your questions:
1) "What Test to Show From Lord?":  It is my personal message from the Lord.  I don't know.  That's why I'm on-line == To find that answer!

GOOD!!  Let me help you.  Here is a list of 9 "tests" for any revelation or prophetic word to see if it really from the Lord or not.  These are taken from Derek Prince's booklet "How to Judge Prophecy."

Nine Scriptural Principles For Judging Prophecy

A. 1 Cor. 14:3—The end purpose of true New Testament prophecy is threefold:
edification, exhortation, comfort. Anything which does not achieve these
purposes, or fall within these limitations is not true prophecy.
     1. Jer. 1:10—Sometimes "rooting out" and "pulling down" precede "planting";
     "destroying" and "throwing down" precede "building."
     2. 2 Cor. 10:8; 13:10—The end purpose of ministry to God's people is always
     edification.

B. 2 Tim. 3:16; Is. 8:19–20—All true prophecy always agrees with the letter and the
spirit of Scripture. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself (compare 2 Cor.
1:17–20).

C. John 16:13–14; Rev. 19:10—All true prophecy always exalts and glorifies Jesus
Christ and gives Him complete preeminence (compare Col. 1:18).

D. Rom. 14:17; Gal. 5:22–23; Matt. 7:15–16—True prophecy produces fruit in
character and conduct that agrees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness
comes first.
     1. False prophets (wolves in sheep's clothing) are likewise identified by their
     fruits: e.g., pride, arrogance, boastfulness, exaggeration, dishonesty,
     covetousness, financial irresponsibility, licentiousness, immorality, addictive
     appetites, broken marriage vows, broken homes (compare Matt. 7:21–23;
     2 Pet. 2:12–15).
     2. Num. 23:10; Josh. 13:22—Balaam set forth as a warning of a prophet
     corrupted by wrong motives (compare 2 Pet. 2:15–16).

E. Deut. 18:20–22—If prophecy contains predictions concerning the future, and
these are not fulfilled, the prophecy did not come from God.
Rom. 12:6—Sometimes a person prophesying begins in the Holy Spirit but
oversteps his "measure of faith."

F. Deut. 13:1–5—Even if prophecy contains correct predictions or supernatural
revelations, it is not from God if its effect is to promote disobedience against God
and the Scriptures.
Acts 16:16–18—By the "spirit of divination" this girl supernaturally declared the
truth concerning Paul and Silas, but she was a tool of Satan.

G. 2 Cor. 3:17—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, produces liberty, not
bondage.
     1. Contrast the following: Rom. 8:15—"Bondage"; 1 Cor. 14:33—"Confusion";
     2 Tim. 1:7—"Fear"
     2. True prophecy never promotes spiritual dictatorship.

H. 2 Cor. 3:6—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, will always inject fresh life
into a meeting, and harmonize with the overall purposes of God.

I. 1 John 2:27—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, is attested by the Holy
Spirit within each believer who hears it.

2) "Tests/Church/Not Just Self":  None.  I don't know.  I'm still trying to find the answer!

Go thru the above list first.  If it passes those tests this one should start to become clear. If it does not pass, then forget it.

"Vasectomy" is not an easy subject to discuss!!! (Least of all with the Church!!!)

Any subject of a sexual nature is difficult to discuss in church. When was the last sermon you heard on masturbation?  On the lasting effects of childhood sexual abuse?

DaveW:  Thank you for this list!  Let me go through each point:

A == Exhortation True
B == Yet Undetermined, Still trying to figure it out.
C == Yet Undetermined
D == Yes, Righteousness
E == Not Applicable == Not A  Prediction
F == No, Not Supernatural
G == True == It's a warning
H == Yet Unknown
I == Yet Undetermined

My conclusion so far is that I need to re-think my thesis position.  Ill come back to it sometime later but now I have to end this.

Dave, thank you for all you have done in answering my questions and for your help.  I apologize for my dogmatic overbearing position and my stubbornness.  In a few weeks, I would like to correspond with you privately to hammer out what I've got from the Lord (I only know intuitively that I got "something").
I don't know how it all fits together just yet.

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

[SuperEddy]

DaveW:  I owe you another apology == I just figured out that you are right about my ability to get re-married, so, in general, this is true.  My personal command from the Lord, however, tells me not to re-marry, but your general statement is true.  I'm sorry for my error.

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

[DaveW]

No apology needed but I do accept it. 

I am just happy to be able to help you start straightening out your confusion.