Eunuchs?

[chosenone]

I am still not entirely sure what we are being asked.

[DaveW]

DaveW:  My point is that there's not much to re-think.  The conclusion is obvious:  God contradicted the OT Word in the NT and MATT 5 is full of such contradictions.  All you have to do is read it.  And it has some important implications.  Consider the practice of slavery, for example.   1 TIM, Titus, and 1 PET all have a paragraph about proper conduct between masters and slaves.  Do we conclude that Jesus LIKES slavery??  It says so in His Word, doesn't it?  What about your friend, the mod, who was trying to say that slavery exists, today, in the USA?  You only asked him what could be done with it.  Why not stand-up and be counted as endorsing slavery as Jesus did?

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

SE - do you see what you are doing? You are changing scripture to fit your opinions. That is NEVER right.  Your issue with slavery is a case-in-point.

Stop it.  You are doing damage to the scriptures to your own hurt.

[SuperEddy]

DaveW:  My point is that there's not much to re-think.  The conclusion is obvious:  God contradicted the OT Word in the NT and MATT 5 is full of such contradictions.  All you have to do is read it.  And it has some important implications.  Consider the practice of slavery, for example.   1 TIM, Titus, and 1 PET all have a paragraph about proper conduct between masters and slaves.  Do we conclude that Jesus LIKES slavery??  It says so in His Word, doesn't it?  What about your friend, the mod, who was trying to say that slavery exists, today, in the USA?  You only asked him what could be done with it.  Why not stand-up and be counted as endorsing slavery as Jesus did?

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

SE - do you see what you are doing? You are changing scripture to fit your opinions. That is NEVER right.  Your issue with slavery is a case-in-point.

Stop it.  You are doing damage to the scriptures to your own hurt.

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

[DaveW]

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

It is a big jump from not saying anything against to actively endorsing. 

Actually the bible is consistantly LIMITING the use of slavery and defining how to treat slaves.  It is not endorsing the institution - it is making it more humane.

[MeMyself]

Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Is this what you are after? That everyone agree with your take on scripture?

I agree with Dave, BTW 100%!  You really need to STOP it!

[MeMyself]

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

It is a big jump from not saying anything against to actively endorsing. 

Actually the bible is consistantly LIMITING the use of slavery and defining how to treat slaves.  It is not endorsing the institution - it is making it more humane.

Amen!

[SuperEddy]

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

It is a big jump from not saying anything against to actively endorsing. 

Actually the bible is consistantly LIMITING the use of slavery and defining how to treat slaves.  It is not endorsing the institution - it is making it more humane.

DaveW:  The lack of condemnation and three paragraphs of helpful suggestions constitutes an endorsement in my book.  Isn't it ironic that the African-Americans of today see such freedom and liberation in the Scriptures when all it really told them was how to be better slaves!  It did make slavery more humane, but it did not condemn slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

[MeMyself]

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

It is a big jump from not saying anything against to actively endorsing. 

Actually the bible is consistantly LIMITING the use of slavery and defining how to treat slaves.  It is not endorsing the institution - it is making it more humane.

DaveW:  The lack of condemnation and three paragraphs of helpful suggestions constitutes an endorsement in my book.  Isn't it ironic that the African-Americans of today see such freedom and liberation in the Scriptures when all it really told them was how to be better slaves!  It did make slavery more humane, but it did not condemn slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

oh my gosh...what is really going on here?  Are you a believer, or are you trying to discredit the Word of God and the message of Christ?

[DaveW]

The lack of condemnation and three paragraphs of helpful suggestions constitutes an endorsement in my book. 

Well, thank God the bible is NOT YOUR book!

[AVZ]

DaveW:  My point is that there's not much to re-think.  The conclusion is obvious:  God contradicted the OT Word in the NT and MATT 5 is full of such contradictions.  All you have to do is read it.  And it has some important implications.  Consider the practice of slavery, for example.   1 TIM, Titus, and 1 PET all have a paragraph about proper conduct between masters and slaves.  Do we conclude that Jesus LIKES slavery??  It says so in His Word, doesn't it?  What about your friend, the mod, who was trying to say that slavery exists, today, in the USA?  You only asked him what could be done with it.  Why not stand-up and be counted as endorsing slavery as Jesus did?

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

SE - do you see what you are doing? You are changing scripture to fit your opinions. That is NEVER right.  Your issue with slavery is a case-in-point.

Stop it.  You are doing damage to the scriptures to your own hurt.

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

Jesus absolutely endorses slavery, and so should you.
Matthew 20:26-28
"It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

[MeMyself]

Jesus absolutely endorses slavery, and so should you.
Matthew 20:26-28
"It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

This kind of slavery isn't the same as *owning* another human being and treating them like a possesion. That is what Eddy is talking about.

[AVZ]

Jesus absolutely endorses slavery, and so should you.
Matthew 20:26-28
"It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

This kind of slavery isn't the same as *owning* another human being and treating them like a possesion. That is what Eddy is talking about.

Is it now?
This command Jesus gives applies both to masters and slaves. Both of them wanting to be less than the other.
Are we not all bought for a price?

SuperEddy takes the position that Jesus should have said "I want none of you to be masters", yet Jesus said the same thing but differently "I want all of you to be slaves".

[MeMyself]

Jesus absolutely endorses slavery, and so should you.
Matthew 20:26-28
"It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

This kind of slavery isn't the same as *owning* another human being and treating them like a possesion. That is what Eddy is talking about.

Is it now?

Yes. I believe so..

This command Jesus gives applies both to masters and slaves. Both of them wanting to be less than the other.
Are we not all bought for a price?

SuperEddy takes the position that Jesus should have said "I want none of you to be masters", yet Jesus said the same thing but differently "I want all of you to be slaves".

Since He wants us all as slaves, there can be no human masters over one another human and therefore no slavery, except to Christ. So He is *far* from endorsing it. He is abolishing it. :) 

Slavery to Christ is freedom and *that* kind of slavery is joy!

[chosenone]

DaveW:  My point is that there's not much to re-think.  The conclusion is obvious:  God contradicted the OT Word in the NT and MATT 5 is full of such contradictions.  All you have to do is read it.  And it has some important implications.  Consider the practice of slavery, for example.   1 TIM, Titus, and 1 PET all have a paragraph about proper conduct between masters and slaves.  Do we conclude that Jesus LIKES slavery??  It says so in His Word, doesn't it?  What about your friend, the mod, who was trying to say that slavery exists, today, in the USA?  You only asked him what could be done with it.  Why not stand-up and be counted as endorsing slavery as Jesus did?

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

SE - do you see what you are doing? You are changing scripture to fit your opinions. That is NEVER right.  Your issue with slavery is a case-in-point.

Stop it.  You are doing damage to the scriptures to your own hurt.

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

Show us where he approves of it.

[chosenone]

Jesus absolutely endorses slavery, and so should you.
Matthew 20:26-28
"It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

This kind of slavery isn't the same as *owning* another human being and treating them like a possesion. That is what Eddy is talking about.

Is it now?

Yes. I believe so..

This command Jesus gives applies both to masters and slaves. Both of them wanting to be less than the other.
Are we not all bought for a price?

SuperEddy takes the position that Jesus should have said "I want none of you to be masters", yet Jesus said the same thing but differently "I want all of you to be slaves".

Since He wants us all as slaves, there can be no human masters over one another human and therefore no slavery, except to Christ. So He is *far* from endorsing it. He is abolishing it. :) 

Slavery to Christ is freedom and *that* kind of slavery is joy!

Oh Amen.

[chosenone]

DaveW:  Jesus said nothing against slavery and we have three paragraphs telling us how to do slavery!  I'm just doing what the Bible says.  Show me the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly condemns slavery!  I dare you to do it!  But, you can't because they don't exist!  Therefore, conclude, as I do, that Jesus endorses slavery!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

It is a big jump from not saying anything against to actively endorsing. 

Actually the bible is consistantly LIMITING the use of slavery and defining how to treat slaves.  It is not endorsing the institution - it is making it more humane.

Yep

[SuperEddy]

chosenone:
MeMyself:
DaveW:

You have accused me of defaming the Bible, accused me of not using the Bible (some other book), accused me of not being a Christian, and have accused me of twisting the Scriptures to my personal ideas, YET NOT ONE OF YOU HAS OFFERED A VERSE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CONTRADICTS MY VIEWS!!!   The actual problem here is your legalistic view of the Bible == And, if you dropped the literal/legal view of the Bible, YOU WOULD FIND A WAY OUT.  IT'S SIMPLE!!!!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

[chosenone]

chosenone:
MeMyself:
DaveW:

You have accused me of defaming the Bible, accused me of not using the Bible (some other book), accused me of not being a Christian, and have accused me of twisting the Scriptures to my personal ideas, YET NOT ONE OF YOU HAS OFFERED A VERSE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CONTRADICTS MY VIEWS!!!   The actual problem here is your legalistic view of the Bible == And, if you dropped the literal/legal view of the Bible, YOU WOULD FIND A WAY OUT.  IT'S SIMPLE!!!!

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

No one here has accused you of not being a believer.
Maybe if you actually said clearly what it is you are trying to say, we would know how to reply.

[MeMyself]

chosenone:
MeMyself:
DaveW:

You have accused me of defaming the Bible, accused me of not using the Bible (some other book), accused me of not being a Christian, and have accused me of twisting the Scriptures to my personal ideas,

OH.MY.GOSH!  I did NOT *accuse* you! I ASKED you to clarify!!!!  There is a huge difference.

YET NOT ONE OF YOU HAS OFFERED A VERSE FROM THE BIBLE THAT CONTRADICTS MY VIEWS!!!   The actual problem here is your legalistic view of the Bible == And, if you dropped the literal/legal view of the Bible, YOU WOULD FIND A WAY OUT.  IT'S SIMPLE!!!!

I'd rather not follow you and your loosey goosey way of interpreting scripture, thanks anyway, though.

[MeMyself]

PS.  What is this thread even about anyway?  I thought I knew, answered as asked, but then was wigged out on, tantrums were thrown by the OP and now everyone who disagrees with him or his handling of scripture are hypocritical and legalistic.

Anyone have any clue?

[DaveW]

PS.  What is this thread even about anyway?  I thought I knew, answered as asked, but then was wigged out on, tantrums were thrown by the OP and now everyone who disagrees with him or his handling of scripture are hypocritical and legalistic.

Anyone have any clue?

Yeah - it was pretty much summed up in the OP.   They guy believed that getting a vascectomy was equated with committing adultery and meant that even if he remained married (which he did not) he had to stay non-sexual with his wife.

I tried to show him from scriptures that he was off base with the idea and to a degree was somewhat successful; but then he started throwing accusatons of being bible literalists/legalists when he saw that scripturally he was still off base.

[MeMyself]

PS.  What is this thread even about anyway?  I thought I knew, answered as asked, but then was wigged out on, tantrums were thrown by the OP and now everyone who disagrees with him or his handling of scripture are hypocritical and legalistic.

Anyone have any clue?

Yeah - it was pretty much summed up in the OP.   They guy believed that getting a vascectomy was equated with committing adultery and meant that even if he remained married (which he did not) he had to stay non-sexual with his wife.

That is what I *thought* it was about too, but he told me that was the old thread in the men's forum, he was wrong and to disregard that.  (so confused  )

I tried to show him from scriptures that he was off base with the idea and to a degree was somewhat successful; but then he started throwing accusatons of being bible literalists/legalists when he saw that scripturally he was still off base.

Agreed.

[SuperEddy]

PS.  What is this thread even about anyway?  I thought I knew, answered as asked, but then was wigged out on, tantrums were thrown by the OP and now everyone who disagrees with him or his handling of scripture are hypocritical and legalistic.

Anyone have any clue?

Yeah - it was pretty much summed up in the OP.   They guy believed that getting a vascectomy was equated with committing adultery and meant that even if he remained married (which he did not) he had to stay non-sexual with his wife.

I tried to show him from scriptures that he was off base with the idea and to a degree was somewhat successful; but then he started throwing accusatons of being bible literalists/legalists when he saw that scripturally he was still off base.

DaveW:  My whole point is in the original post, but in order to understand that, the whole literal/legal thing has to be thrown out.  The slavery issue was an example of the literal/legal thing and its failure to explain and defend the proper Biblical position on the issue.  In a similar way, the literal/legal thing cannot explain the "eunuch" issue in MATT 19:12.  Another kind of analysis is needed here, as it is for slavery.

Sincerely,
SuperEddy

[chosenone]

However Eddy, as Christians, husbands are told not to deprive the wife of sex, and also that each bodies are not their own. So if you are married your body also belongs to your wife. So, even if a man is sterile for whatever reason(choice, treatment for cancer, or born that way for example), he would be disobeying God to refuse to have sex with his wife when he is perfectly capable of doing so.
As I said before, a eunuch in the Bible is is a man who is unable to have sex. He would have had some or all of his his reproductive organs removed, or he would have been born without them.    Also what if a woman is sterile?

[SuperEddy]

TO ALL:

I feel that the gulf of difference between our understandings is too great to cross at this time and I need to end this thread.  Many of the things I've tried to show you have failed and I'm at a loss on how to show you more. 

Thank you for the things you have shown me.  I especially thank DaveW for his treatment of MATT 5:32, showing me that I CAN re-marry!

Please forgive me for my rough treatment of you, at times, my only intent was to prove my point and I'm sorry if I pushed too hard.

I forgive you too.  After all, we are all Christians and, at the root, we all believe in our one and only Savior and Lord Jesus Christ.

We disagree on minor things but we are all together as one.

With Love In Christ,
SuperEddy