Anti-Semitism

[notreligus]

Besides myself,  I am wondering how many others here are tired of being labeled an anti-Semite because you believe that Christ has fulfilled the promises to Abraham, just as Paul said.   

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Call me a whiner if you will, but I am tired of the ungodly implications made here on a regular basis by a man here who contends that the New Covenant is a covenant with the Hebrews and not with the Church.   The "Gentiles" are considered to be secondary to the Hebrews.   I think that is the racist view.  Paul taught that Jews and Gentiles are on equal footing in Christ.   He is the Great High Priest of all believers.   

DaveW ought to apologize for using the race card when it comes to Israel.   I have no racial bias against Jews and I seriously doubt that others here do.   But it is regularly implied and it should stop. 

Dave, now it's your turn to reply and claim that you're just misunderstood.   

[Alan]

Sorry notreligious, but I haven't witnessed this character in Dave.
Often I'll speak up as a Canadian, or maybe as a member of a charismatic ministry, but that's just applying a personal effect to conversation. Perhaps Dave is just doing the same?

[notreligus]

Sorry notreligious, but I haven't witnessed this character in Dave.
Often I'll speak up as a Canadian, or maybe as a member of a charismatic ministry, but that's just applying a personal effect to conversation. Perhaps Dave is just doing the same?

We're obviously not reading the same posts.  We're surely not interpreting them the same way.   I know for a fact that there are others here who feel exactly as I do.   I can't force others to post.   They may not even know I've posted this.    My purpose is not to gang-up on the man but to get him to stop making a false claim.
I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

Do you believe that Christ died that ALL of mankind could be reconciled to the Father equally?

Do you believe that the New Covenant is Israel's Covenant and the Gentiles are still Gentiles and have a secondary position in God's kingdom?   

Is it anti-Semitism to not believe that Replacement Theology is a fact?   Didn't Christ establish one new man in lieu of Israel and the Gentiles remaining two separate entities?   This is what prompts Dave to refer to anti-Semitism.   He says that Replacement Theology is based in anti-Semitism.   That is a bunch of hooey.   

Our first concern as a Christian should be to stand for the Gospel, not our pet doctrines.   

1Co 15:1  Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2  and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4  that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures

[Goshin]

Do you believe that the New Covenant is Israel's Covenant and the Gentiles are still Gentiles and have a secondary position in God's kingdom?   

Is it anti-Semitism to not believe that Replacement Theology is a fact?   Didn't Christ establish one new man in lieu of Israel and the Gentiles remaining two separate entities?

TBH, I didn't even know what Replacement Theology was, and had to look it up:

Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God's plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God's chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

I do, however, know the Bible says the people of Israel are Gods chosen people and He has a plan for them:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." - Deuteronomy 7:6


That in the End Times He will bring them back to their land:

"In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth." - Isaiah 11:11-12


That all nations (the Gentiles) will come against Israel and He will come to their aid:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." - Zechariah 12:9


If they're not still Gods chosen people, why the special plan, and why will He come to their aid?

Our first concern as a Christian should be to stand for the Gospel, not our pet doctrines.   

I don't know that you're an anti-Semite, and wouldn't think of calling you one. It seems more to me that Replacement Theology might be your pet doctrine.


"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Genesis 12:3

I'm not Jewish, don't claim to be, and don't practice Judaism, but I'll stick with Israel being Gods chosen people.

[TonkaTim]

Goshin,

Just as we find in the Book of Genesis in the story of Joseph we can see him as the kinsman redeemer who saved his family, but also as the cutoff branch because he was sold into bondage. In his bondage he became a king indistinguishable from the people he ruled over. He took an Egyptian bride & had Egyptian sons. When restored to his father whom God called Israel. His father adopted his sons as his father's sons & made them his brothers. In this we can see the foreshadowing of the great things that came. The restoration of the natural branch with the cutoff branch & the adoption of the wild branch.

Through Christ this has been happening since the words "He is risen" was first proclaimed.

Moses said this would happen to them as a people. The Prophets said it would happen. And the restoration is still happening through Christ to this very day.

No one has been replaced. All are welcome through Christ.

Christ is the fulfillment of the promises to the fathers.

The Bride of Christ is Israel.

As the prophet Hosea said "great shall be the day of Jezreel'

[Goshin]

If Adam and Eve had Cain and Able as children, what do you refer to them as? Their offspring, or offsprings?

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

The word offspring is used collectively to include both, or all, children.

[Julabee Jones]

God is a God of covenant. National Israel has in the past, and does today, claim to be a people of covenant. In fact, their clinging to out of date promises of God to Israel totally ignores an incredibly important aspect of covenant.

You see, covenant is two sided. God says, "If you will do this, I will do that. If you do not do this, I will not do that".

National Israel has failed to meet their part of the covenant every single time, but still continues to claim that God did, or will, fulfill His half of the covenant, when they will not fulfill theirs.

Let's look at scripture...for starters a little event in the New Testament that totally characterizes Israel as being just as I stated above.

We know that, "Jesus came unto His own, and His own received Him not" John 1:11. In the course of events surrounding Jesus' death, when Pilate heard that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, he feared. And we know that,     

"When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." John 19:8-11.

So the question we must ask is, "Who gave unto Pilate, the power to crucify or to release Jesus? Who is this "that delivered me unto thee"...who then..."hath the greater sin"?

Is it God? Is it the Roman emperor? If not, then who?

It is God who gave Pilate the power, for, "...there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Romans 13:1 It is God who gives power unto governments, to either good effect or bad...for there is no power but of God, and the powers that there are, are ordained of God.

But who is it then, that delivered Jesus unto the power of Pilate? Who is the 'HE' that did this?

Pilate asks Jesus if He is King of the Jews? Jesus answers, "Are you telling me this of yourself? Or did others tell you about me?" To which, "Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?" John 18:35.

It was His own, His own nation, His own people, who delivered Jesus unto His death. As noted above, in John 1:11, "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not"...

And how did their refusal to accept Jesus play out? Here's how it did...

Give Pilate credit where it is due. Pilate did his utmost to release Jesus, even to point of washing his hands before the people crying for Jesus' death, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just person; see ye to it".

To which the people replied, "...and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." Matt 27:24-25.

What an incredible, utterly stupid thing for those people to say! God is a God of covenant, and they sat right there, and agreed, made a covenant with God, that by giving to them, granting to them the death of God's Son, they would in return settle His blood, the blood of the Son of God, upon not only their own heads, but also upon the heads of their own children.

And when, some time later that sin, that curse, came home to them through the preaching of the newly spirit filled apostles and disciples, they whined like despotic children, saying,

"Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us" Acts 5:28 What a bunch of, of, well, fools!

But that kind of attitude, that kind of arrogance has characterized that people from the get go. Look at their agreement to follow the Covenant of the Law, and how quickly, just 40 days with Moses on the Mount, receiving the Law, and they fell into idolatry and a host of other wicked sins.

And the short journey through the desert made long by their continued refusal to follow the covenant they'd made with God? The entire generation of them, save Joshua and Caleb, fell in the wilderness, empty shells of what could have been good and godly lives.

When God keeps covenant with you, but you refuse to keep covenant with God, it is you who fail, it is you who suffer the consequences. Look at that cursed and ill-begotten generation of the chosen people of God, Paul speaking of this identical subject in his letter to, who else, the Hebrews...

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord". Hebrews 8:7-9.

Of all the things on earth I would not wish God to do to me, it is that I would not wish to have Him EVER to DISREGARD me. Those people didn't keep the covenant they promised to God they would keep. And in the desert, God had to keep His portion of the Covenant and bring upon them their own deaths.

You, yes, you Baptist, you 'once saved always saved person'...you may say, and truthfully so, that no one can pluck you out of God's hand. But know you this, and know this well...go wrongly enough, and God can certainly remove His hand from yours and DISREGARD you. If that isn't a warning for the ages, I wouldn't know what is...

And that is exactly what God promised to Israel with respect of Jesus Christ, His Son. Look at it,

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" Deut 18:15...going on to say but a few words later,

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deut 18:19. God says, "Don't listen to my prophets...and you'll have to pay".

Peter quoted that passage on the day after his and John's experience with the crippled man at the Beautiful Gate of the Temple, when he said (and read this carefully and clearly),

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Acts 3:22-23.

What was the result, when Israel refused to accept their own, who came for them, to bring unto them eternal life? Look at it again,

"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, WHICH WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET, shall be destroyed from among the people"...

God doesn't lie. Israel refused Jesus. And God destroyed them, Israel, from among the people. He did that with the destruction of The Temple and Jerusalem. He did that with the diaspora, the debilitating wondering as outcasts throughout the earth, with the Holocaust and other numerous persecutions through the ages.

If only they had not said, "His blood be upon our heads and the heads of our children"...what a different history we would have seen.

So did that end, once and for all, all of Israel? Well, not as far as bloodline is concerned. But as far as God is concerned, yeah, for even John the Baptist spoke truth when he said, "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham".

No, all of Israel wasn't ended. For some of them did indeed accept Jesus Christ. They put aside their law-keeping, embraced grace, and became one part of a much greater thing, the Church of Jesus Christ.

Paul makes it clear that Israel became the church, for in Ephesians, he says, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Eph 2:13.

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Eph. 2:14-22.

From two disparate portions, Jews and Gentiles a singular unity came about...making in Himself of two, one new man! The Church, the Body of Jesus Christ.

Look at what Israel lost! Just by refusing to accept Jesus the Son of God as the prophet foretold in the passages quoted above.

And in Colossians, Paul tells us, speaking of the law, Israel's claim to fame, Israel's reason for being,

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; actually 'slaying' the enmity, the law contained in ordinances, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." Col 2:13-15.

Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition between the Gentiles and Israel, that is, blotting out the law, the handwriting of ordinances that was against us...

And nailed the law, the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, to the cross, in a universe wide display of God's power and grace. For to whom God shows kindness, it is ultimate kindness, and to whom God shows disregard, it is hard indeed.

Oh Lord Jesus!!! that Israel might come to see...that someday they might have opportunity to make it right with God.

Paul says in Galatians an incredible thing. He uses a phrase that seems totally out of place. And it would be out of place if God hadn't destroyed Israel from among the people, if He hadn't, not 'replaced' Israel with the church, but rather, actually promoted Israel with the church, bringing them into another dimension, into another better, blessed and promised land, giving them just exactly what He had promised those thousands of years ago, a Prophet like unto Moses.

And Paul's strange statement?

"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Gal 6:16.

Paul is here asking for peace and mercy upon the Israel of God. Not upon National Israel. Not upon the Israel that refused the savior, that said, "His blood be upon us and our children's heads".

No, Paul is speaking here of the church, the church in which Israel is now hidden, an integral part of the Body of Jesus Christ.

For if Paul was here speaking of National Israel, the 'Israel' we know today...what would we make of it? We would have to say that Paul is partner of, partaker of, and portion of ANTICHRIST.

For of all things they might wish to be, National Israel is today, antichrist above all else.

For what is antichrist?

"Antichrist" is both a biblical term and biblical reality. If we are to speak of that which is biblical, then let us do so biblically, saying what the Bible says, and not what men who know not the scriptures say and think.

And here is exactly the Bible's definition of 'Antichrist',

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Indeed, does National Israel confess that Jesus is the Son of God? That Jesus is the Christ? They do not. They won't hear of it. They summarily dismissed Jesus two thousand years ago. They dismiss Him today. So that they are, Biblically and therefore in the eyes of God, Antichrist.

So would Paul co-habit with antichrist? Would he say to National Israel "Godspeed" knowing that those who do so become partakers of their evil deeds?

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." 2 John 7. Another definition of Antichrist, as those who do not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

And John goes on to say, that if any come to your house, and bring not the Doctrine of Christ, we are not to,

"...receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 11.

No, no, No! Paul is not talking about peace and mercy upon National Israel, an Antichristian entity and true enemy of God...Paul is speaking of mercy and peace upon the Israel OF GOD, which is the Church of the Living God.

So is there no hope then, for Antichristian Israel? Yes, Yes, YES!!

They have open unto them the same hope we Gentiles have in Christ. As Paul says in Romans chapter 11, verse 23...

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

You and I lived in unbelief, and John 3: 16 brought us to salvation and lives in the Spirit. The same promise, the same saving grace is offered to National Israel every single day. Will they one day see that, and abandon their self-reflexive blindness, coming to Him who came to them two thousands of years ago, only to see them refuse to accept Him?

God can and will save them, if they will do as we've done, and accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

Let us pray, always, that National Israel can join the Israel that is now hidden in the Church of Jesus Christ, and become children of God just as we have.

God Bless You!

I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones

[notreligus]

God is a God of covenant. National Israel has in the past, and does today, claim to be a people of covenant. In fact, their clinging to out of date promises of God to Israel totally ignores an incredibly important aspect of covenant.

You see, covenant is two sided. God says, "If you will do this, I will do that. If you do not do this, I will not do that".

National Israel has failed to meet their part of the covenant every single time, but still continues to claim that God did, or will, fulfill His half of the covenant, when they will not fulfill theirs.

Let's look at scripture...for starters a little event in the New Testament that totally characterizes Israel as being just as I stated above.

We know that, "Jesus came unto His own, and His own received Him not" John 1:11. In the course of events surrounding Jesus' death, when Pilate heard that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, he feared. And we know that,     

"When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." John 19:8-11.

So the question we must ask is, "Who gave unto Pilate, the power to crucify or to release Jesus? Who is this "that delivered me unto thee"...who then..."hath the greater sin"?

Is it God? Is it the Roman emperor? If not, then who?

It is God who gave Pilate the power, for, "...there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Romans 13:1 It is God who gives power unto governments, to either good effect or bad...for there is no power but of God, and the powers that there are, are ordained of God.

But who is it then, that delivered Jesus unto the power of Pilate? Who is the 'HE' that did this?

Pilate asks Jesus if He is King of the Jews? Jesus answers, "Are you telling me this of yourself? Or did others tell you about me?" To which, "Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?" John 18:35.

It was His own, His own nation, His own people, who delivered Jesus unto His death. As noted above, in John 1:11, "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not"...

And how did their refusal to accept Jesus play out? Here's how it did...

Give Pilate credit where it is due. Pilate did his utmost to release Jesus, even to point of washing his hands before the people crying for Jesus' death, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just person; see ye to it".

To which the people replied, "...and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." Matt 27:24-25.

What an incredible, utterly stupid thing for those people to say! God is a God of covenant, and they sat right there, and agreed, made a covenant with God, that by giving to them, granting to them the death of God's Son, they would in return settle His blood, the blood of the Son of God, upon not only their own heads, but also upon the heads of their own children.

And when, some time later that sin, that curse, came home to them through the preaching of the newly spirit filled apostles and disciples, they whined like despotic children, saying,

"Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us" Acts 5:28 What a bunch of, of, well, fools!

But that kind of attitude, that kind of arrogance has characterized that people from the get go. Look at their agreement to follow the Covenant of the Law, and how quickly, just 40 days with Moses on the Mount, receiving the Law, and they fell into idolatry and a host of other wicked sins.

And the short journey through the desert made long by their continued refusal to follow the covenant they'd made with God? The entire generation of them, save Joshua and Caleb, fell in the wilderness, empty shells of what could have been good and godly lives.

When God keeps covenant with you, but you refuse to keep covenant with God, it is you who fail, it is you who suffer the consequences. Look at that cursed and ill-begotten generation of the chosen people of God, Paul speaking of this identical subject in his letter to, who else, the Hebrews...

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord". Hebrews 8:7-9.

Of all the things on earth I would not wish God to do to me, it is that I would not wish to have Him EVER to DISREGARD me. Those people didn't keep the covenant they promised to God they would keep. And in the desert, God had to keep His portion of the Covenant and bring upon them their own deaths.

You, yes, you Baptist, you 'once saved always saved person'...you may say, and truthfully so, that no one can pluck you out of God's hand. But know you this, and know this well...go wrongly enough, and God can certainly remove His hand from yours and DISREGARD you. If that isn't a warning for the ages, I wouldn't know what is...

And that is exactly what God promised to Israel with respect of Jesus Christ, His Son. Look at it,

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" Deut 18:15...going on to say but a few words later,

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deut 18:19. God says, "Don't listen to my prophets...and you'll have to pay".

Peter quoted that passage on the day after his and John's experience with the crippled man at the Beautiful Gate of the Temple, when he said (and read this carefully and clearly),

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Acts 3:22-23.

What was the result, when Israel refused to accept their own, who came for them, to bring unto them eternal life? Look at it again,

"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, WHICH WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET, shall be destroyed from among the people"...

God doesn't lie. Israel refused Jesus. And God destroyed them, Israel, from among the people. He did that with the destruction of The Temple and Jerusalem. He did that with the diaspora, the debilitating wondering as outcasts throughout the earth, with the Holocaust and other numerous persecutions through the ages.

If only they had not said, "His blood be upon our heads and the heads of our children"...what a different history we would have seen.

So did that end, once and for all, all of Israel? Well, not as far as bloodline is concerned. But as far as God is concerned, yeah, for even John the Baptist spoke truth when he said, "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham".

No, all of Israel wasn't ended. For some of them did indeed accept Jesus Christ. They put aside their law-keeping, embraced grace, and became one part of a much greater thing, the Church of Jesus Christ.

Paul makes it clear that Israel became the church, for in Ephesians, he says, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Eph 2:13.

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Eph. 2:14-22.

From two disparate portions, Jews and Gentiles a singular unity came about...making in Himself of two, one new man! The Church, the Body of Jesus Christ.

Look at what Israel lost! Just by refusing to accept Jesus the Son of God as the prophet foretold in the passages quoted above.

And in Colossians, Paul tells us, speaking of the law, Israel's claim to fame, Israel's reason for being,

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; actually 'slaying' the enmity, the law contained in ordinances, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." Col 2:13-15.

Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition between the Gentiles and Israel, that is, blotting out the law, the handwriting of ordinances that was against us...

And nailed the law, the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, to the cross, in a universe wide display of God's power and grace. For to whom God shows kindness, it is ultimate kindness, and to whom God shows disregard, it is hard indeed.

Oh Lord Jesus!!! that Israel might come to see...that someday they might have opportunity to make it right with God.

Paul says in Galatians an incredible thing. He uses a phrase that seems totally out of place. And it would be out of place if God hadn't destroyed Israel from among the people, if He hadn't, not 'replaced' Israel with the church, but rather, actually promoted Israel with the church, bringing them into another dimension, into another better, blessed and promised land, giving them just exactly what He had promised those thousands of years ago, a Prophet like unto Moses.

And Paul's strange statement?

"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Gal 6:16.

Paul is here asking for peace and mercy upon the Israel of God. Not upon National Israel. Not upon the Israel that refused the savior, that said, "His blood be upon us and our children's heads".

No, Paul is speaking here of the church, the church in which Israel is now hidden, an integral part of the Body of Jesus Christ.

For if Paul was here speaking of National Israel, the 'Israel' we know today...what would we make of it? We would have to say that Paul is partner of, partaker of, and portion of ANTICHRIST.

For of all things they might wish to be, National Israel is today, antichrist above all else.

For what is antichrist?

"Antichrist" is both a biblical term and biblical reality. If we are to speak of that which is biblical, then let us do so biblically, saying what the Bible says, and not what men who know not the scriptures say and think.

And here is exactly the Bible's definition of 'Antichrist',

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Indeed, does National Israel confess that Jesus is the Son of God? That Jesus is the Christ? They do not. They won't hear of it. They summarily dismissed Jesus two thousand years ago. They dismiss Him today. So that they are, Biblically and therefore in the eyes of God, Antichrist.

So would Paul co-habit with antichrist? Would he say to National Israel "Godspeed" knowing that those who do so become partakers of their evil deeds?

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." 2 John 7. Another definition of Antichrist, as those who do not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

And John goes on to say, that if any come to your house, and bring not the Doctrine of Christ, we are not to,

"...receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 11.

No, no, No! Paul is not talking about peace and mercy upon National Israel, an Antichristian entity and true enemy of God...Paul is speaking of mercy and peace upon the Israel OF GOD, which is the Church of the Living God.

So is there no hope then, for Antichristian Israel? Yes, Yes, YES!!

They have open unto them the same hope we Gentiles have in Christ. As Paul says in Romans chapter 11, verse 23...

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

You and I lived in unbelief, and John 3: 16 brought us to salvation and lives in the Spirit. The same promise, the same saving grace is offered to National Israel every single day. Will they one day see that, and abandon their self-reflexive blindness, coming to Him who came to them two thousands of years ago, only to see them refuse to accept Him?

God can and will save them, if they will do as we've done, and accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

Let us pray, always, that National Israel can join the Israel that is now hidden in the Church of Jesus Christ, and become children of God just as we have.

God Bless You!

I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones

Excellent post.

I don't want to pour cold water on your post, but as a bit of background, I began this thread as I had become tired of reading the regular claims of anti-Semitism being attributed to Christians who do not agree that the New Covenant is Israel's Covenant.   If not anti-Semitism then then the claim is/was replacement theology.   I am pleased to say now that I am not reading the words anti and Semite as often as I had been accustomed and I am grateful for that.   

[Julabee Jones]

Both terms 'supersessionisn' and 'replacement theology' are cast in such a way as to put down those who are aware that Israel was folded into the church...

Just as 'Anti-Semitism' is meant to degrade.

It isn't enough apparently, to use Biblical words and terms...we must also denigrate those who don't see quite so much, or the same as we do.

And it is shame.

I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones

[DaveW]

Both terms 'supersessionisn' and 'replacement theology' are cast in such a way as to put down those who are aware that Israel was folded into the church...

Actually it is the OTHER WAY AROUND.  We do not have Israel folded into us - we are folded into Israel.

Who (gentile church or physical Israel) is the root of the tree in Romans 11?

Hint:  Rom 11.18b remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

[notreligus]

Both terms 'supersessionisn' and 'replacement theology' are cast in such a way as to put down those who are aware that Israel was folded into the church...

Actually it is the OTHER WAY AROUND.  We do not have Israel folded into us - we are folded into Israel.

Who (gentile church or physical Israel) is the root of the tree in Romans 11?

Hint:  Rom 11.18b remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Christ is true Israel.   He is the offspring promised to come as an answer of the promise to Abraham.   Israel was "chosen" because the Savior of the world came through them. 

You're pointing to flesh, the wrong support.   

I believe the context of Romans Eleven is that Paul hoped that Jews would eventually turn to Christ and do so in great numbers.   The believing Remnant shows that God did not kick them to the curb but made them part of the Body of Christ.   What does John 3:16 tell us?   Did Christ love the nation of Israel only so much that He gave His only Son?  Take out the word "only" and that's true.   But the New Covenant is not "only" Israel's.   

Also, when you discuss this go on to the rest of the story which includes the belief that there will be a restored Levitical priesthood which will replace Christ's own priesthood.  He is God!  Are Jewish priests higher than Him?    Must He, too, step down and be subject to the Law when He has already fulfilled it?   The Book of Hebrews does not support general claims you have made in this forum. 

I don't want to make this a you vs. me thing.   You are not alone in your beliefs about Israel, but I have to protest when statements are made which are in opposition to what Paul taught about the Body of Christ.    The Bible is proof that many Jews in the Way fought against Paul and his efforts with what Christ had revealed to him concerning the Body of Christ.   Covenantal Nomism is not a right argument to use against what Christ accomplished on the cross to restore a right relationship between mankind and God Almighty.   

[Julabee Jones]

If the church were to be folded into Israel, we would be keeping the law...

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Acts 3:22-23.

And God said, of THAT PROPHET on the Mount of Transfiguration, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; HEAR YE HIM." Matt 17:5...Moses and the Mt. Sinai were what? They were figures, foreshadowing Jesus on Mt. Sinai, foreshadowing the giving of the New Testament, the New Covenant. Moses was the figure, the shadow, the precursor of THAT PROPHET...

And of whom he said those who do not hear Him, who do not hear THAT PROPHET shall be 'destroyed from among the people'.

Do you see that? Do you see what I see? I see that there, 'destroyed from among the people' is today's national Israel, and including the many thousands, perhaps millions of Jews who have been destroyed since the day they crucified God's truly Chosen one.

If Israel remains today, with the church folded in, where then is the High Priest? Oh yes, that is Jesus, THAT PROPHET, the exact same one the Israel of that day crucified.

The one whose High Priest-hood fulfilled and utterly did away with the law, since,

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Heb 7:12

And what imprimatur from God does this fact possess? It is that it is one of two 'Immutable' things, two bits of reality in which God cannot lie,

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Hebrews 6:18-20.

What are those two immutable things? Things even God cannot lie about? They are 1) the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. And incidental to that, the establishment of a new priesthood, the priesthood of the believer, the believers who carry and bear every element of priesthood in all it's glory. And by extension, the dissolution in its entirety of the Levitical Priesthood.

For, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ". 1 Peter 2:5, and,

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

And 2) the fulfilling, in its entirety, of the law. "For Christ IS THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth" Rom 10:4.

Tell me...would you continue to make payments on the car you just finished making payments on? I didn't think so...no more do we continue to keep the law, for it has been fulfilled, every single payment made and the covenant stamped "fulfilled".

Who is He speaking of when He says, "...which is time past were not a people"? Is he talking about a people to whom he says, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51?

Or is he talking about the Gentiles? who are now, in the Jesus Christ Israel refused to accept, a people who "...but now have obtained mercy?"

And you think you can get Israel out of that? Israel is in that...in that Body, in that Church, but only insofar as that Israel fully accepts Jesus Christ, and does not refuse His primacy nor refute His priesthood.

And so I ask, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" Romans 11:7-12.

That is your National Israel today. And they are certainly continuing to fulfill many of their prophetic legacies,

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof. " Isa 6:-13...That is your National Israel today.

But the most important truth about National Israel of today is that they have, "...been destroyed from among the people" Acts 3:23, and are in God's eyes no longer Israel.

But the Israel of God, today, is found bound up in and part and parcel of the Church.

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Eph 2:14-22.

There is the Israel of God. Note it is naught but the Church of Jesus Christ, into which believing Israel has been joined. That our of two, Gentiles and Jews, there made be ONE. And note that in order to be the Israel of God, those Jews who believed found it necessary that THEY COME TO JESUS and become Christians, NOT that Gentiles had to come to Israel in order to be saved.

I am personally, a member of the Israel of God. I am a child of Abraham by faith, just as are the bloodied children of Israel wrapped into the church.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28-29.

There is still a place for National Israel. And that is in repentance and believing in the only begotten Son of God...

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Rom 11:23-32...

For National Israel, there are but two choices...continue to serve as Antichrist on this planet and receive the just rewards of their deeds (as they've done for two thousands of years)...

or come to Jesus and be grafted into that tree...That tree planted by God alone, for remember,

"Every plant which my Heavenly Father hath not planted...shall be ROOTED UP" Matt 15:13.

God bless you!

I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones

[DaveW]

If the church were to be folded into Israel, we would be keeping the law...

See right there you are already stepping off on the wrong foot. 

"Israel" does not equal "law."  Jacob was called "Israel" about a half millenium BEFORE the Law came into existance.

And I can tell you from several years of marching band experience, if you step off on the wrong foot, every step from then on is wrong and it can be tough to get back in proper step.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Who (gentile church or physical Israel) is the root of the tree in Romans 11?

Hint:  Rom 11.18b remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Neither one.

Throughout the Bible, there is a metaphor that is repeatedly used.  In this metaphor, trees are used to symbolize kings, or more accurately, dynasties of kings.  (Judges 9, Daniel 4, Eze 27,31,37, Isa 11, & too many other places to list)

This is sometimes confused, when people interpret it to mean the whole kingdom.  However, the appropriate interpretation of the apocalyptic imagery necessitates that the people of the kingdoms are represented by animals and birds which rest in the shade of the trees (aka under the protection of the king). (Eze 31:6)

In Romans, as everywhere else, the tree stands for the king, which is Jesus - the BRANCH as prophesied in Jeremiah, and Isaiah, and Zechariah.

Jarrod

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Interesting quote, but I find myself in neither group.  I simply believe that true Israel and the church are, and always have been, synonymous.

Note that ethnic Israel has always been heterogenous - a mixture of the elect ("true Israel") with those who merely pretend to be so.  Look at Jesus' parable of the wheat and tares.  See Paul explicitly saying that " they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."  Notice him using phrases like "Israel after the flesh" to differentiate between the ethnic nation, and something else.  Consider Jesus prediction of a sorting of the sheep and goats.

But really, go back further.  Who came out of Egypt?  Israel... AND a whole bunch of other people.  When Elijah saw only wickedness in the nation, what did God tell him?  God had a remnant who hadn't bowed the knee to Baal.  When God destroyed the (ethnic) nation, repeatedly, and scattered them, and carried them away to captivity, who repented, and listened, and returned to the country?  Only the remnant - the ones "called out" of Babylon, and Persia, and Media.

I don't even need to stop there.  Who was Abraham?  Wasn't he defined as the one who was "called out?"  Out of Ur.  Out of Haran.  The one who believed God (and it was credited to him as righteousness).

True Israel only ever consisted of the remnant.  The wheat among the tares.  The sheep among the goats.  The ones who were "called out" and actually went out.

No surprise, then, that church (ekklesia) is a word that means "called out."  The church is not the continuation of Israel.  The church IS Israel.  The confusion is only because of all the people who are not Israel, who keep calling themselves Israel, in error.

Jarrod

[Red Baker]

The church is not the continuation of Israel.  The church IS Israel.  The confusion is only because of all the people who are not Israel, who keep calling themselves Israel, in error.

Very well stated~and true to the scriptures, I might add. I am speaking of the overall post by Jarroh.

[Red Baker]

Besides myself,  I am wondering how many others here are tired of being labeled an anti-Semite

I am with you brother.

[DaveW]

TBH, I didn't even know what Replacement Theology was, and had to look it up:

Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

I disagree with that assesement of the question.

There is a view that the church and the Jewish people are 2 interesecting circles.  Those Jews inside the intersection are Messianic Jews.  Those in the Church circle (not in the interesection) are the Gentile church.  Those in the Jewish circle (not in the intersection) are non-New Covenant believing Jews.  The Term "Israel" originally applied only to the circle of Jews.  But according to Romans 11 the Gentiles who believe via the New Covenant are grafted into Israel.  So a  "Greater Israel" or "Commenwealth of Israel" is all that put together.  The Gentile church has been added in.

Replacement theology seeks to remove the non-New Covenant believing Jews from the definition. (and in some cases the Messianic Jews as well)  That goes against the plain meaning of scripture and IS anti-semetic.

[DaveW]

I have a question for NotReligious and RedBaker:

What does SCRIPTURE say is the reason the gospel went to the Gentiles? 

Quote me a verse/passage that says it sucinctly.

[notreligus]

I have a question for NotReligious and RedBaker:

What does SCRIPTURE say is the reason the gospel went to the Gentiles? 

Quote me a verse/passage that says it sucinctly.

I've given it to you probably a hundred times.

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Christ is true Israel.   The Church, His people, the Body of Christ with no difference in Jew or Gentile, are the benefactors of the New Covenant.   You don't believe this because you say that Jesus is a Jew.   

1Cor 15:46  But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Cor 15:48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Cor 15:49  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Cor 15:50  I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


I can't count how many times other folk have stated in the End Times forum that Israel is to receive her earthly (fleshly) blessings when Christ returns and rules during the millennium.   Well, you join right in with these people.   National Israel is an earthly, fleshly nation of Hebrews.   God does not favor based on race.   Christ is not a Hebrew, but He is the living Son of the living God!   

I would have answered you sooner, but I just read this moments ago.   I was pretty well done with this thread and the false labels.   

[DaveW]

Wrong answer.

Those are several scriptures about gentiles being included - but none of them give a specific "WHY."

try again.

I'll make it easy.  It starts off "Salvation has come to the Gentiles to ......"  To what?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

What does SCRIPTURE say is the reason the gospel went to the Gentiles? 

Quote me a verse/passage that says it sucinctly.

Gen 17:4  As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

[DaveW]

Gen 17:4  As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Still does not say "Why."

[DaveW]

Guys - this is important.  It is a calling/requirement for EVERY GENTILE BELIEVER.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

There is a view that the church and the Jewish people are 2 interesecting circles.  Those Jews inside the intersection are Messianic Jews.  Those in the Church circle (not in the interesection) are the Gentile church.  Those in the Jewish circle (not in the intersection) are non-New Covenant believing Jews.  The Term "Israel" originally applied only to the circle of Jews.  But according to Romans 11 the Gentiles who believe via the New Covenant are grafted into Israel.  So a  "Greater Israel" or "Commonwealth of Israel" is all that put together.  The Gentile church has been added in.

Replacement theology seeks to remove the non-New Covenant believing Jews from the definition. (and in some cases the Messianic Jews as well)  That goes against the plain meaning of scripture and IS anti-Semitic.

That's an awful simplification.  That paradigm is whack.  Allow me to present a more Biblical paradigm.

An Artist creates a group of red dots, amidst some black dots.  When the red dots become large in numbers, the black dots begin to oppress them.  The artist moves the red dots to another part of the paper, and draws a circle around them.  However, because the black dots also oppress each other, some black dots also flee together with the red dots, and settle among them.  There are a few black dots that already live in the area, which the artist tells the red dots to erase, but they don't, so they also become part of the group living in the circle.

The circle splits into two.  One of the circles is mostly red dots with some black, and the other is mostly black with some red.

The circle with mostly black dots is destroyed by God, and the red and black dots scatter out across the paper, mixing into different shapes - squares, triangles, rhombi, etc.

The black dots begin to multiply in the other circle, until only a small % of red dots remain.  God destroys that circle now as well.  Most of the dots disperse, as before, but He brings most of the red dots into another shape - a star.

After some time, the star is attacked and destroyed by a parallelogram.  The small group of red dots is moved farther across the paper into the parallelogram.

A little while later, a very few of the red dots - a remnant of the remnant of the remnant - leaves the parallelogram and moves back across the paper to their original location, and attempt to draw a new circle themselves.  They are instantly sabotaged in drawing it by some nearby dots, and end up with something kind of ovoid, which they call a "circle" anyway.  Some of the dots that remember the old circle weep openly when they see it.

A faction of black dots in a nearby trapezoid invent a new and subtle means of attack - they wet the ink of their trapezoid and let it run across the paper, dying things various shades of gray and black.  In response, the red and black dots fortify their oval by drawing its lines much thicker and darker.  Some of the black dots inside the circle notice that they are black, and attempt to whitewash themselves to cover up the flaw.  Some of the red dots paint themselves as well, because they are told to.  Many red dots that lay outside the circle become dirty and difficult to tell apart from black dots.

Rather than destroying the oval and doing another dispersion/recall of the red dots, the Artist decides to inject Himself into the system directly.  He puts Himself into the oval as a red dot, and spreads the message that the ones who really belong to Him are the dots who are red, whether or not they are inside the circle or not.

Some of the whitewashed black dots in the circle become angry with this message, because their hope is in their status as "inside the circle."  They collude and erase the author's red dot, which he promptly re-draws 3 minutes later, to their chagrin.

The Artist commissions a dozen simple red dots which have not whitewashed themselves to carry His message throughout the painting, and wash the dots, whether white or black, to see if they are really red underneath, and to gather the red dots, and form communities of red dots in all the shapes which exist on the page.

The crux is this - it doesn't matter whether one is "in the circle" and frankly, it never did.  Red dots are red dots, no matter what sort of shape you might draw around them, or exclude them from, or how you might try to cover up their original color.

Jarrod

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Guys - this is important.  It is a calling/requirement for EVERY GENTILE BELIEVER.

There's no such thing as a Gentile believer.  There are only scattered pieces of Israel, which forgot their heritage, and were reminded.

Jarrod

[DaveW]

There's no such thing as a Gentile believer.

Really?  Then who are the wild branches that are grafted in as opposed to the natural branches of Romans 11?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

There's no such thing as a Gentile believer.

Really?  Then who are the wild branches that are grafted in as opposed to the natural branches of Romans 11?

The metaphor makes my point.  At the point of conversion, adoption occurs.  Thus, they are no longer gentiles, since they are now the seed of Abraham.

Jarrod

[Jaime]

I would say they are not the root, but are still grafted on wild branches of God's olive tree Israel, the same as the grafted back on natural branches are still natural branches of God's olive tree Israel, all being Abraham's spiritual seed.

[Jaime]

In answer to Dave's earlier question:

Romans Chapter 11:11-16

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their [f]fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

[DaveW]

In answer to Dave's earlier question:

Romans Chapter 11:11-16

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their [f]fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

CORRECT! 

It is every gentile believer's DUTY to make traditional Jews jealous of our relationship with THEIR GOD.

[Jaime]

I don't usually promote The Message paraphrase, but it does say it well:

11-12 The next question is, "Are they down for the count? Are they out of this for good?" And the answer is a clear-cut No. Ironically when they walked out, they left the door open and the outsiders walked in. But the next thing you know, the Jews were starting to wonder if perhaps they had walked out on a good thing. Now, if their leaving triggered this worldwide coming of non-Jewish outsiders to God's kingdom, just imagine the effect of their coming back! What a homecoming!