This Generation~Matthew 24:34

[lea]

Wow, when will some of you ever get to understand Biblical prophecy?! You seem to not be able to settle in your minds the truth behind "this generation." I am only semi-educated (a 2yr. college degree) and I can figure it out perfectly. So can other full preterists! Don't mean to be so condescending, but it is true.

How can someones be so saved and so ignorant of the meanings in Scripture?!@!
The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."

39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
An Unclean Spirit Returns

43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."

The "this generation " is a no-brainer if one has a head on their shoulders. Stop being so blind.

[RB]

Wow, when will some of you ever get to understand Biblical prophecy?! You seem to not be able to settle in your minds the truth behind "this generation." I am only semi-educated (a 2yr. college degree) and I can figure it out perfectly. So can other full preterists! Don't mean to be so condescending, but it is true.

You have me beat~I have no education, and besides it took me two years to get out of "sandbox"! Truth does not come through worldly education but by the Spirit of the Living God! The apostles were living proof of that and so was Christ! Neither were trained/taught by the wisdom of this world.

IF you think you know the meaning of the phrase "THIS generation"~then PROVE IT with the scriptures. So far you have not, not even close. RB

Side note: Even in your post you quoted scriptures (and there are many of them) which tells us the meaning of THIS generation:

39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."

THIS generation is defined by the Holy Ghost as EVIL and wicked~just as it is ALL THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES and it is NOT limited to Jesus' generation, even though they were there JUST like they are in EVERY generation of the living. God's word defines its OWN WORDS for us, NOT Webster, etc. You folks try in VAIN to limit THIS generation to Jesus' generation and it DOES NOT Fit but is FORCED into the scriptures.

Consider this one point with me~Jesus' generation had the MOST RIGHTEOUS people that ever walked this earth in it, and that within itself proves your false doctrine. Who lived in Jesus' generation? I'll come back and give you a list of the most righteous men and women that ever lived at one time in a present generation in the land of the living~the list is LONG!  Later RB

[lea]

The passage was from Matt.12, I forgot to note the book.

It's not what I mean by "this generation" but what Jesus meant.

Notice how He says "The Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Friend in no other time in history and the Bible did Jesus die on the Cross and arise on the 3rd day! So you see, the Lord is addressing his contemporaries-    "this wicked generation."

[3 Resurrections]

Hey lea,

Yep, it's so obvious that "THIS generation" was the exact one that had the 3-day-3-night sign given to it originally.  A sign that was rejected by the majority, especially the Jewish leadership.  Most people miss the significance of Jonah and Solomon that are both brought up as inferior examples compared to Christ's witness to His own generation.   These examples help pin down who "THIS generation" actually referred to.

The men of Ninevah and the Queen of Sheba both recognized the truth and wisdom brought by those lesser examples of Jonah and Solomon, and gave a righteous response to them.  Arguing from the lesser to the greater, (because Christ was the infinitely superior truth-speaker compared to Jonah and Solomon), that first-century wicked generation deserved to be condemned by the men of Ninevah and the Queen of Sheba.  By that generation's rejection of the resurrected Christ's superior witness, they earned the ultimate judgment of the "days of vengeance". 

No other nation was so favored as to have the personal ministry of Jesus Christ walking their streets and teaching them eye-to-eye.  To whom much was given, much was required for their orchestrating the murder of the Son of God. 

No other generation since then has been guilty of this same ultimate crime.  They "FILLED UP the measure of their fathers" completely, and "wrath came upon them to the uttermost." 

Once the "days of vengeance" were exacted upon that wicked generation who had murdered His Son, God didn't continue to demand the same wholesale vengeance on EVERY generation subsequent to that one.  That would have been an injustice.  We are condemned on a person-by-person basis if we reject the Son of God as our Savior, but this has nothing to do with the "days of vengeance" passed upon that first-century "wicked and adulterous generation".  Adulterous, because they had not remained truly faithful to God's covenant with them, but had depended on Rome's favors to maintain their place and their nation, as the high priest Caiaphas clearly admitted.

The example of the seven-fold increase of demonic possession was also going to be limited to the "last state" of that first-century wicked generation.  Their "last state" would be worse than their "first" state; a time when Jesus and His disciples had first cast out devils in just about every city in Israel, as testified by the seventy He sent out.  This set of verses confined the condition of those varying levels of wickedness to a SINGLE wicked generation, from its FIRST state to its LAST state in AD 70, before that generation of parents and their children had passed away.

It was indeed Jesus' contemporaries that were thus judged, you've hit it exactly, lea.

[dpr]

(Red highlight are mine for discussion)The only truth you said in this post is:I firmly believe that context IS KING and that the context will drive the interpretation for us if we just submit to the word of God as God's testimony to us concerning the TRUTH we are seeking. Your problem is that you are NOT properly following the context~the KEY of understanding Matthew 24:34 will be found in the beginning of the discourse from verses 5 down to verse 25! Jesus will CLEARLY reveal to us the very generation that shall not pass till ALL be fulfilled including his second coming and the end of the world as we know it.

But I am... following the Scripture context of Matthew 24. Your PROBLEM is that you are following a doctrine of men instead of the Scripture context.

You are allowing men's theories to sway your ability to simply understand the context that is written there in simplicity. The parameters Jesus gave with that idea of "This generation" involves the 'things' He was showing His disciples, and the final 'thing' He showed them was the day of His return and literal END of this present world. That's the context of where He used the word "generation". Thus He was using generation in the time sense, and not about the wicked Pharisees, etc.

THIS GENERATION are the generation of evil and wicked men the very generation that he was warning us of (Matthew 24:5-25) that shall come in great multitudes during the GREAT tribulation~the time of Jacob's trouble, or the very elect.

I would like to discuss this very subject with you one on one in a new thread since this one was started a few years back.

You can discuss it all you want with yourself, because I won't budge on what my Lord Jesus declared there in Matthew 24. If I denied it as written it would mean denying many other Bible Scriptures that parallel with it, like the Revelation 6 Chapter for one instance.

And what is this thing of suggesting to make a new thread discussion? It won't change what my Lord Jesus declared there in His Olivet discourse, no matter how much you throw men's doctrines at it. I've already covered the 7 Signs of the end Jesus gave on this forum, and in parallel to the Seals of Revelation. No one has commented on that, so why would I want to start a new discussion and thread on this topic? They won't consider my explanation there either.

[dpr]

The passage was from Matt.12, I forgot to note the book.

It's not what I mean by "this generation" but what Jesus meant.

Notice how He says "The Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Friend in no other time in history and the Bible did Jesus die on the Cross and arise on the 3rd day! So you see, the Lord is addressing his contemporaries-    "this wicked generation."

And that's still... not how Jesus used the 'generation' idea in Matthew 24:34. He wasn't speaking of the wicked Jews in Matthew 24, He was pointing to the generation that will see those signs Jesus forewarned of in the Matthew 24 chapter.

[lea]

And that's still... not how Jesus used the 'generation' idea in Matthew 24:34. He wasn't speaking of the wicked Jews in Matthew 24, He was pointing to the generation that will see those signs Jesus forewarned of in the Matthew 24 chapter.

Jesus forewarned his apostles and disciples about the signs to look for.  Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

[robycop3]

    While the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed while some of that generation were still here, the actual eschatological events did NOT then occur. There was NO beast with a false prophet as his sidekick, NO "abomination of desolation", NO great trib, and certainly NO physical return of Jesus, seen by all.

  Daniel, Paul, and Jesus' messenger in Revelation all spoke of the beast.  Jesus Himself spoke of the AOD, which will be the antichrist's setting up his statue in the temple in Jerusalem, and declaring himself to be God. Jesus Himself prophesied the great trib, which will be worldwide. And Jesus said He'd return in great power & glory immediately after that trib.

  These events simply have NOT yet happened! No amounta pret Scripture-twisting & re-defining can erase that FACT. Preterism was, and still is, false !

[RB]

Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

The answer to your question is YES concerning false prophets~nevertheless, Jesus was speaking of a TIME when this world (not just in the middle east) will be overflooded with both false prophets and false doctrines. Your lying system desires and works very hard to limit Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thessalonians 2; and Revelation to 70 A.D. But it is very clear even from within what is known as the Olivet Discourse~ that you are teaching a doctrine that the today's false prophets need you to teach in order to conceal their identities....you are either showing that you are among them, or at least helping to protect them.....You decide!

Luke 21:32-36~"Verily I say unto you, This generation (SEAPKING OF TYPE NOT TIME~ which Jesus just spent teaching warning of EVIL and WICKED men....RB) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, (THERE'S YOUR ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION~RB) lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

[3 Resurrections]

Hi RB,

Jesus was NOT speaking of a time in the distant future for apostasy in the church to break out in record numbers.  That idea flat-out contradicts His prophesied "INCREASE" of the kingdom of God among men throughout the generations to come, as represented by the leaven, the mustard seed, Daniel's growing rock that struck the image, etc.

Jesus' predictions of a particular period of rampant apostasy involving false doctrine in the church were ALREADY being fulfilled by the time the little book of Jude was being written.  These "wandering stars" and "spots in your feasts of charity" that were feasting in company with those first-century believers were "before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God unto lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."  This period during the first-century's "latter days" of apostasy had been foretold long before by Moses and the prophets.

Paul also taught that MANY had already been working to corrupt the word of God back then.  Written around AD 57, Paul said in I Cor. 2:17, "For we are not as *MANY* WHICH CORRUPT THE WORD OF GOD..."  Apostasy and twisting God's words was being done on many levels by many in the first century. 

Paul also reluctantly admitted to Timothy around the year AD 66/67 that, even after his prior, complete evangelistic coverage of Asia, "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me...." (II Timothy 1:15). 

This was MASSIVE DEFECTION or apostasy in the ranks of the church that Paul spoke of in this text.  Evil men and seducers had indeed in those first-century days already begun to wax into a "worse and worse" condition, by deceiving others and being deceived themselves.  That's because the devil had already been loosed for a "SHORT TIME" and "LITTLE SEASON" back then, to again deceive the nations on an unprecedented and never-to-be-surpassed scale (as Rev. 12:12 compared to Rev. 20:3&7-8 proves was already going on back then).

This period of a flood of false doctrine and demonic oppression combined with physical trials and persecution in the church were features of history just before and during the Great Tribulation period of AD 66-70.  This combination of conditions will never be duplicated in that manner again, as promised by Jesus Himself in Matt. 24:21.

RB, your doom-and gloom projections of a faltering and failing presence of the kingdom of God in this world (which you think will continue to sink until the end of human history) are not only depressing to read, they are a flat-out denial of Christ's triumphant predictions of the progress of the Spirit's work among the nations of men that would "INCREASE" over time, after the close of that Great Tribulation era of the first century (immediately followed by His AD 70 physical return). 

As to this post's original theme, "This generation" is NOT speaking of a supposed "type" of people.  Perhaps you don't realize it, RB, but you are marching in lockstep with C.I. Scofield's interpretation of "generation" when you say that.  In his Bible notes, Scofield deliberately and deceitfully SWITCHED the Greek definitions of "genea" and "genos" so that he could claim that Jesus was only speaking of the "race" of Jews that would supposedly be alive in our future when the fulfillment of these Matthew 24 signs would take place. 

A "genea" generation is defined as a group of contemporaries living at a particular TIME.  It's not a "type" or "race" of people as you and Scofield suppose.  That idea would be represented by the word "genos" instead, as Scofield was well aware before he deceptively switched these definitions in his Bible notes.

You are indeed crippled when you refuse to look at the differences in the Greek terms that the KJV translators lumped together into the one generic word "generation".   

Do you really think it is a "type" of people under discussion in Matthew 1:17?  Is that 14 "types" of people from Abraham to David, etc., or is it speaking of the passage of TIME represented by 14 consecutive series of contemporary families, each living at a particular TIME?

When God said in Ps. 95:10 that "FORTY YEARS LONG was I grieved with that GENERATION", He was not speaking of a "type".  He was speaking of a (genea) generation that had lasted FORTY YEARS of TIME.  The fathers and their children made up that single generation in the wilderness, exactly the same as the weeping women and their children on Christ's way to the cross would make up the contemporary (genea) generation in Christ's days that would see the Matthew 24 signs come to pass.

And please don't try to use the (gennemata) "generation of vipers" text as an example of a "type".  This "gennemata" term means "offspring" of vipers, which was a particular insult harking back to the serpents that plagued the children of Israel in the wilderness.  Totally different term from "genea", or "genos".

[robycop3]

  The great trib was NOT in 66-70 AD. That's silly. No great plagues struck the earth then. Also, Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. Obviously, He hasn't yet returned.

  Try doing a REALITY CHECK !

[RB]

Hi RB,

Jesus was NOT speaking of a time in the distant future for apostasy in the church to break out in record numbers.  That idea flat-out contradicts His prophesied "INCREASE" of the kingdom of God among men throughout the generations to come, as represented by the leaven, the mustard seed, Daniel's growing rock that struck the image, etc.

I'll answer your post with the word of God later. I'm only marking it now so I will not forget to answer your post. I am just as convinced as you are that your doctrine is against the word of God and I shall easily prove that C.I. Scofield and my understanding are worlds apart not as you desire for others to believe that we are in agreement. Later as time permits.  But I will add that they (Premill School) do not twist and pervert scriptures as much as Hyper Preterism and half baked Preterism do to support their doctrine.  Later.....RB

[3 Resurrections]

Hi robycop3,

Of course, OBVIOUSLY Jesus has not yet returned TO STAY physically on this planet yet.  But He has already returned physically and bodily to RAPTURE the resurrected saints and to "receive them unto Himself" by taking them back with Him to the Father in heaven, as He promised to that first-century generation.

You needn't worry.  He will be back to resurrect you yourself as well in the future at the final third resurrection.  Not a single hair of a single saint gets left behind to perish in the dust of the grave.

There are 5 WORDS that absolutely prove this lengthy span of time AFTER the Great Tribulation which was IMMEDIATELY followed by the rapture of the resurrected saints at Christ's second coming return.  Matt. 24:21, "...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NO, NOR EVER *SHALL BE*"  (nor ever shall be in the FUTURE, AFTER that Great Tribulation, that can ever compare to the severity of that former period of time).

Robycop3, just what explanation do you have for this extended period of time AFTER the Great Tribulation?  If the return of Christ to gather His resurrected saints IMMEDIATELY follows that Great Tribulation, then that extended period of human history with other periods of regular tribulation for the saints comes AFTER that second coming of Christ. 

This is the part of the timeline that you and I are sitting in; waiting for a yet future THIRD COMING of Christ to bodily resurrect us.  The growing church since AD 70 has experienced regular and periodic periods of tribulation and persecution, but none like the one in the AD 66-70 era, since the entire demonic realm was unleashed in full fury for a "SHORT TIME" on THAT GENERATION by being imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem.  This was just as Jesus foretold for the "LAST STATE" of that wicked first-century generation (Matt. 12:43-45).

Since the demonic realm was entirely destroyed at Christ's AD 70 coming (the Devil and his angels turned to ashes, and every unclean spirit that "passed out of the land - Zech. 13:2), the part they played to make that the Greatest Tribulation period ever to occur (either before then or at any time in the future) can no longer be replicated in any period of church tribulation subsequent to that time.

[robycop3]

  No, the great trib has NOT yet occurred. It'll be worldwide when it does occur. Remember, Jerusalem was soon rebuilt after its AD70 destruction.

  And, of course, the rapture hasn't yet occurred, either. There were many saints who'd been saved before 70 AD who went right on with their work afterwards. John, the longest-living apostle, was not raptured.

  And, of course, the 'beast' hasn't yet come, either. Scripture plainly says he will be in power when Jesus returns, & will send his army to attack Jesus, but Jesus will destroy it by His spoken word. And the beast & his sidekick, the false prophet, will be cast alive into the lake of fire, not passing "Go" or collecting $200.

  As for "nor shall ever be", remember, there'll be the millenium of Jesus' rule on the earth while Satan is imprisoned, & then, the brief period of insurrection after Satan is released. So, there'll be plenty of time left after the trib.

  And no, the demonic realm is still very-much around, as proven by the prevalence of sin all over the world.

  Your whole scenario is one big cartoon.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi robycop3,

So, you think that there is no scripture proof of a WORLDWIDE Great Tribulation in the AD 66-70 time period? 

Here are the verses that prove it:

Rev. 3:10-11  - "Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also thee will keep out of the hour of trial which is ABOUT TO COME UPON THE *WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD*, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  Behold I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown."  The entire habitable world (oikoumenen holes) was soon to experience this WORLDWIDE trial in JOHN'S DAYS.  These prophesied  days of trial John said were "AT HAND" according to Rev. 1:3 and 22:10  (a term defined by God in Ezekiel 12:21-28 as NOT being "prolonged" into "times that are far off", such as our future).

Acts 17:30-31  -  "The indeed therefore times of ignorance God having overlooked, NOW charges ALL MEN *EVERYWHERE* to repent, because he set a day in which he is ABOUT TO JUDGE THE HABITABLE WORLD (oikoumenen) in righteousness, by a man whom he appointed; proof having given to all in having raised him from among the dead."

Paul's warning was given to those Athenians on Mars Hill around AD 54 - not in a Jewish synagogue.  Even the pagan nations would share in this soon-coming judgment of the habitable world by Christ.

You are also still ignoring the famine in Acts 11:28 that Agabus prophesied was "about to be over the WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD" (holes tes oikoumenen) in the reign of Claudius (AD 41-54).  This worldwide famine was the fulfillment of the famines Christ predicted in Matt. 24:7 that would be part of "the beginning of sorrows", just before the Great Tribulation.

You are also confused as to just who participated in the AD 70 rapture.  No ordinary living saints were translated and caught up to heaven at that time.  I Thess. 4 makes no such artificial promise of a translation of a living saint.  You had to have been DEAD at one time to have participated in the rapture.  This was RESURRECTED "living" saints who had "remained" on earth (like the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints) that were caught up in the clouds in the AD 70 rapture.  No one gets to skip the one-time death process. "...it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but after this the judgment...." (Heb. 9:27).

You also mistakenly think the literal millennium has not already come and gone.  John proves this in Rev. 12:12 compared with Rev. 20:3.  Satan was going to be "loosed" for a "little season" AFTER the literal millennium period had expired.  John declares quite plainly in Rev. 12:12 that Satan's "short time" was THEN IN PROGRESS.  How could the literal millennium be in our future if Satan's loosing for a "short time" / "little season" had ALREADY BEGUN as John was writing?  If Satan was already loosed back then, that means the literal 1,000-year millennium period had ALREADY EXPIRED at that point in John's days.  This isn't rocket science.

And if John said that Satan only had this "short time" / "little season" to deceive the nations as he was writing, that didn't leave Satan very long to exist after John had laid down his quill.  You are trying to stretch a "short time" / "little season" into a 2,000 year and counting period of time.  No logic whatever in that, especially since scripture already defined a "LONG season" as lasting only 40 years (Joshua 24:7).

You are also clearly ignoring the evil present in the hearts of men that originates all manner of wickedness.  Human evil today without the presence of the demonic realm needs no instigation from Satan or his angels to perform or think wicked things.  Jesus made that very clear in Matt. 15:18-20, as well as James duplicating the same idea in James 1:13-14.  It's our own lust and our own heart which originates evil things.

To go back to addressing the main point of this post - defining "THIS generation" - Jesus does that very specifically in Luke 17:25.  After telling the disciples a description of what the days of the Son of Man would look like before His return, He told them, "But FIRST must He suffer many things, and be rejected of *THIS* GENERATION."  (That's a "genea" generation he spoke of, dealing with a contemporary group living together at the same time.)   

Jesus would "suffer many things" from the same "THIS generation" that would end up rejecting Him; those who inflicted those sufferings upon Him also took part in rejecting Him.  John 1:11 and 5:43 tells us exactly who "THIS generation" is. "He came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received him not."  Speaking to the unbelieving Jews in His presence, Jesus said "I am come in my Father's name, and YE receive me not...".  In other words, the "YE" composed of that first-century generation of unbelieving Jews was the same as "THIS generation" who rejected Jesus and caused His sufferings.  For this offense, even Moses would accuse them to the Father in the judgment, which would bring upon those fathers and their own children the "days of vengeance".

Your chronology of end times needs some serious revision, robycop3, to stay on track with scripture's timeline.

[robycop3]

   Apparently, you didn't read my last post too closely. Lemme quote the first line from it :

No, the great trib has NOT yet occurred. It'll be worldwide when it does occur. Remember, Jerusalem was soon rebuilt after its AD70 destruction.

  But it has NOT occurred yet, nor has Satan been banished to the abyss. And obviously, Jesus hasn't physically returned yet.

  The millenium won't be until Jesus returns, during the antichrist's rule, & casts him & his sidekick the false prophet, into the LOF. Satan will be banished to "the abyss" during that time. Jesus will physically be here, ruling the world from Jerusalem. THAT'S WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS.

  As for the famine of Agabus, there have been many famines after that one. There have been earthquakes, floods, & pandemics as well, not to mention wars.

  The next major prophetic event will either be the coming of the antichrist to power, or the Jews' building a new temple in Jerusalem. I don't know which will come first, but the temple will be there for the antichrist to commit the abomination of desolation in, that is, to enter that temple with the false prophet, set his statue up in it, and declare himself to be God, qasw well as the false prophet's instituting the mark of the beast. The rapture of the living saints will occur shortly before that, so there'll be little opposition to the mark of the beast.

  While God will be "orchestrating" these events, they'll seem to be quite-secular, so most people won't know they're from God, & so won't repent & be saved. remember, God said He'd send STRONG DELUSION upon the world , especially upon those the take the mark, so they won't come to Jesus. Shortly after that, the great trib will begin.

  The only miracles that'll be seen is the false prophet's supernaturally causing his boss' statue to speak, but it'll be thru Satan's power, not God's. But the adoring, deluded crowds won't know any different.

  Scripture, history, and reality prove preterism false.

[lea]

same question to you robycop3-
Jesus forewarned his apostles and disciples about the signs to look for.  Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

[robycop3]

same question to you robycop3-
Jesus forewarned his apostles and disciples about the signs to look for.  Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

   Naturally, they did, although the only one of those events that occurred in any of their lifetimes was the destruction of J & the temple. The rest hasn't yet occurred.

[lea]

   Naturally, they did, although the only one of those events that occurred in any of their lifetimes was the destruction of J & the temple. The rest hasn't yet occurred.

The Olivet discourse to Jesus' disciples was a supernatural and natural prediction. They had the Holy Spirit to help them and guide them. And they performed miracles, etc., so you miss their supernatural state- not just natural! But then of course, you fail to give credit due to them with your dispensational eschatological opinions. Shame!
You say only Jerusalem and the temple fortress destruction was all that occurred, yet only 1 apostle lived till that time. Yet the parallel passages of Matt.24:4-14; Mark 13:5-13; and Luke 21:8-19 one cannot fail to perceive the distinct reference to the period between the Lord's crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem. Every word is spoken to the disciples, and to them alone.
"To imagine that the "ye" and "you" in His address apply , not to the disciples to whom Christ was speaking, but to some unknown and yet non-existent persons in a far distant age- is so preposterous a supposition as not to deserve serious notice." ~ The teaching of the Lord concerning the parousia~ J.S. Russell~ the Parousia.

We have the most ample testimony fully verified between the Lord's crucifixion and the end of the age. False Christs and false prophets began to make their appearances in the early periods of the Christian age, and continued to infe3wst the land down to the very close of Biblical Jewish history.
"In the procuratorship of Pilate (AD36), one such appeared in Samaria, and deluded great multitudes. Another in the procuratorship of Cuspius Fadus (AD 45). During the government of Felix (AD 53-60), Josephus tells us 'the country was full of robbers, magicians, false prophets, false Messiahs, and imposters, who deluded the people with promises of great events.
In the reign of the Emperor Claudius (AD 41-54), there were 4 seasons of great scarcity, the price of food became enormous and great numbers perished. Earthquakes occurred in each of the reigns of Caligula and Claudius."~ The Parousia.

Such calamities, the Lord gave His disciples to understand, would precede 'the end.' They were the 'beginning of the end;  but the 'end is not yet.' Then the Lord passes from the public to the personal; from the fortunes of nations and kingdoms in His discourse, to the fortunes of the disciples themselves.
They were to be brought before councils , rulers and kings, imprisoned, beaten in the synagogues, and hated of all men for Jesus' sake.
How all this was verified in the personal experience of the disciples we can read in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles of St. Paul. With the exception of James the brother of John, the divine promise of protection in the hour of peril from their enemy's persecution was fulfilled. The apostolic history as recorded in the Acts (AD62). Word of James, Jesus' brother's death, in Jerusalem, AD 62 hadn't yet occurred.

The other sign that was to precede and usher in 'the 'end" was the gospel being preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations- "then the end shall come."

We have the authority of the fulfilment of this prediction by St. Paul for such universal diffusion of the gospel ( in Col.1,6,23).

We have one continuous discourse, relating to a particular event. Four sets of events: 1) the appearance of false Christs and false prophets. 2) Great social disturbances and natural calamities. 3) persecution of the disciples and apostasy of professed believers. 4) the general spread of the gospel throughout the Roman empire.

Then in Matt.15-22; Mark 13:14-20; and Luke 21:20-24, we see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. The rest follows in the one continuous discourse that leads to the Lord's real appearing in the clouds, as lightening shines from east to west. IOW'S, His appearing is not described as Him coming to earth physically in the natural. Perceive that and you begin to understand the time of the end in the Bible!

I could go on explaining the the resurrection of His elect and the corporate resurrection in Revelation 20:15.

[dpr]

What you really mean to say, did they look for those signs He gave. Yes, they did look, and obviously they did not happen in THEIR day, but there are those on a man's doctrine called Full Preterism that believe all... those signs, even Jesus' 2nd coming, already happened back in the Apostle's day. But why listen to those kind of cults that need to go back to school and re-learn reading comprehension, and have their vision checked?

[dpr]

God knows how to speak to peoples of different times, i.e., generations. This is why Apostle Peter even told the Church to be mindful of the words of God's OT prophets (2 Peter 3:2; 1 Corinthians 10:11). The signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse are not only for His disciples that were with Him upon the Mount of Olives. It is crazy obvious that He well knew they would not be alive at the time of His 2nd coming which is still future to us even.

So brethren need to check themselves for latching onto men's crazy doctrines which are so simply obviously ignorant, that it might make one look foolish by promoting it.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey dpr,

Just like Paul, we are willing to be called fools for Christ's sake, if by believing His words as given to that first-century generation we acknowledge Christ as being a True Apostle and Prophet.

It is more than obvious that there were some individuals who would not pass through death before Jesus had bodily returned in that generation among which Jesus was living during His earthly ministry.

Matthew 16:27-28.  "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.  Verily I say unto you, There be SOME STANDING HERE,  which shall not taste of death, til they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."  Were YOU standing there as Jesus spoke those words, dpr?  Certainly not, so that particular  promise of Christ's second coming with His angels and with rewards was NOT FOR YOU.  It was to a few of those standing directly in front of Jesus at that time who would still be alive on this earth when He returned with His angels, to reward every man according to his works. 

Don't worry, dpr, you won't be left out.  You are waiting for His THIRD scheduled appearance at the close of human history with the THIRD and final resurrection.  No saint ever ends up getting left behind in the dust of the grave.  "The Lord knoweth them that are his..."

[dpr]

Hey dpr,

Just like Paul, we are willing to be called fools for Christ's sake, if by believing His words as given to that first-century generation we acknowledge Christ as being a True Apostle and Prophet.

Sorry brother, but that's not a valid comparison to what I was talking about. Paul was talking about our being called fools because of our Faith on Christ Jesus, not about the signs of the end our Lord gave.

It is more than obvious that there were some individuals who would not pass through death before Jesus had bodily returned in that generation among which Jesus was living during His earthly ministry.

Matthew 16:27-28.  "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.  Verily I say unto you, There be SOME STANDING HERE,  which shall not taste of death, til they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."  Were YOU standing there as Jesus spoke those words, dpr?  Certainly not, so that particular  promise of Christ's second coming with His angels and with rewards was NOT FOR YOU.  It was to a few of those standing directly in front of Jesus at that time who would still be alive on this earth when He returned with His angels, to reward every man according to his works. 

Well, that's yet another misinterpretation of Scripture, because here's the other Bible witnesses to what He said, and we need 2 or more witnesses remember?

Mark 9:1
9:1 And He said unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.'
KJV

The kingdom of God did come with power when Jesus died on the cross and The Father raised Him from the dead. Lot of Scripture to support that power too. That... is what He was talking about, NOT about His literal return to this earth in the future per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14, specifically to the Mount of Olives.

Now the cult Full Preterism actually believes Jesus' 2nd coming is past, and that it happened in the Apostle's days. Surely you're not of that ilk, for that doctrine is heresy.

Don't worry, dpr, you won't be left out.  You are waiting for His THIRD scheduled appearance at the close of human history with the THIRD and final resurrection.  No saint ever ends up getting left behind in the dust of the grave.  "The Lord knoweth them that are his..."

You have no call to make such false assumptions about me.

I am waiting for Christ's 2nd coming which is well written of, and will be a LITERAL return back to this earth, in Person. And belief that we literally sleep in a hole in the ground when we die is a Jewish tradition of men. Apostle Paul showed this in 2 Corinthians 5. And even Solomon revealed it in Eccl.12:5-7.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi dpr,

I'm mystified as to how you read a doctrine of "soul sleep" into my brief comment about the grave.  I've never propounded that theory for the saints before, and have not done so here either.

I'm equally mystified as to what "false assumption" that you presume I am making about you in this reply.  There was no offense intended, in case you are mistakenly reading one into what I wrote.

As you have said, two witnesses or more truly is the scriptural pattern for proving a point.  Which second witness to go along with Matthew 16:27-28 is available for us in Matthew 10:23, as a prediction for the persecution in various Israelite cities and Jewish synagogues  that the apostles would experience before Christ's second coming.  "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME."

If Christ's second coming has not already come and gone, then this verse would mean that there are still some 2,000-plus-years old apostles still being persecuted while they are currently evangelizing in Israel's cities today.  Which is a ludicrous impossibility.

The only "men's doctrines" that I am guilty of following in this regard to an AD 70 physical return of Christ to the Mount of Olives is that of Paul, who bluntly told Timothy in those first-century days, "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who *IS ABOUT TO* judge living and dead according to his appearing and his kingdom..." (II Timothy 4:1, written about AD 67).   Quite plainly, Timothy himself was told to expect Christ's IMMINENT, VISIBLE APPEARING and a judgement of the dead. The "days of vengeance" would be poured out on the living of that first-century generation as well, in retribution for crucifying their own prophesied Messiah.

And I AM talking about my faith in Christ (for which I am more than willing to be called a fool).  If we cannot put faith in and believe Christ's precise predictions for the conditions prevailing in the world before His first-century physical return, then Jesus was a false prophet of the worst magnitude.  His very divinity is on the line, based on His exact temporal descriptions of His return for THAT first-century generation.  Call it heresy if you wish, but I would rather stand by Christ's and the apostles' and prophets' clear-cut chronology of events for that end of the age that saw Him returning in the skies to literally stand on the Mount of Olives in AD 70.

You are mistaken that Mark 9:1 is talking about Christ's kingdom "coming with power" as being a description of the time of His own resurrection.  We can be certain of that from the verse immediately preceding it in Mark 8:38.  "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in THIS adulterous and sinful generation" (that first-century generation), of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, WHEN HE COMETH IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER WITH THE HOLY ANGELS."  This is "second coming" language.

Immediately after this description of Christ's second coming with the holy angels, He then pronounced solemnly that verily, some standing there would not have died before they saw His kingdom coming with power.  This duplicates the same sense of the  Matthew 16:27-28 text.   It would make no sense to make such a portentous statement about His own resurrection, for that event was only a year or so away - not enough time for many or even most of those hearing His words to have died before that next year had passed.

[dpr]

Hi dpr,

I'm mystified as to how you read a doctrine of "soul sleep" into my brief comment about the grave.  I've never propounded that theory for the saints before, and have not done so here either.

Well, you were the one who mentioned the 'dust in the grave' with that left behind idea.

I'm equally mystified as to what "false assumption" that you presume I am making about you in this reply.  There was no offense intended, in case you are mistakenly reading one into what I wrote.

Your false assumption about me was about a 3rd resurrection, pointing directly to the resurrection of the dead at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. That's an assumption that I won't be joined with Christ but will be deceived. You don't know that, and shouldn't be making those wisecracks.

As you have said, two witnesses or more truly is the scriptural pattern for proving a point.  Which second witness to go along with Matthew 16:27-28 is available for us in Matthew 10:23, as a prediction for the persecution in various Israelite cities and Jewish synagogues  that the apostles would experience before Christ's second coming.  "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME."

If you deny the Mark 13:9-13 sign Jesus gave for the end with some being delivered up to give a Testimony by The Holy Spirit, then that is also to deny the 5th Seal event which is for the end of this world just prior to Christ's return...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

It would mean also denying the prophecy of the coming Antichrist persecuting and making war against the saints just prior to Christ's return (Revelation 13:4-8; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 11:7; Daniel 7:21-22; Daniel 8:24; Daniel 12:7).

If Christ's second coming has not already come and gone, then this verse would mean that there are still some 2,000-plus-years old apostles still being persecuted while they are currently evangelizing in Israel's cities today.  Which is a ludicrous impossibility.

That is very... faulty reasoning.

The list of Christ's martyrs is very long, and it's still going on today. But the Mark 13:9-13 event is specifically for the end, which is why it is tied to the 5th Seal about a Testimony. Revelation 11 shows us more about that future event at the end with God's two witnesses that will appear in Jerusalem, and prophesy for 1260 days, and then be killed with their dead bodies left laying in the plaza, and then after 3 and 1/2 days, they rise up and ascend. Now try to tell me that was history! (No, don't, because I won't be able to stop laughing at your faulty reasoning against the Scriptures for a while).

As a matter of fact, the prophecy from the Book of Joel that Peter quoted on Pentecost was about the cloven tongue spoken on that day. But the actual Joel 2 Scripture where Peter quoted from, is about the very end of this world, showing there is to be a manifesting of that cloven tongue at the end just prior to the "day of the Lord", which is what the Mark 13 event is about for the end.

The only "men's doctrines" that I am guilty of following in this regard to an AD 70 physical return of Christ to the Mount of Olives is that of Paul, who bluntly told Timothy in those first-century days, "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who *IS ABOUT TO* judge living and dead according to his appearing and his kingdom..." (II Timothy 4:1, written about AD 67).   Quite plainly, Timothy himself was told to expect Christ's IMMINENT, VISIBLE APPEARING and a judgement of the dead. The "days of vengeance" would be poured out on the living of that first-century generation as well, in retribution for crucifying their own prophesied Messiah.

So far, looks like you're on the Full Preterist doctrines of men, a faulty tradition that will cause many to fall away from Christ, disregarding His command to watch for His 2nd coming.

[lea]

What you really mean to say, did they look for those signs He gave. Yes, they did look, and obviously they did not happen in THEIR day, but there are those on a man's doctrine called Full Preterism that believe all... those signs, even Jesus' 2nd coming, already happened back in the Apostle's day. But why listen to those kind of cults that need to go back to school and re-learn reading comprehension, and have their vision checked?

Jesus was addressing his disciples right in front of him. Obviously didn't happen in their day? That is one of the most stupidest statements one could take fropm the Text. I have a 12 month old on my lap , so there. She won't be taught any futuristic dogma I'm sure!,

[robycop3]

  Lea, J. S. Russell was a pret, so any view of his in eschatology is wrong. I don't believe a thing he said about Jesus' having already returned. It's all nonsense.

  Again, we go back to the FACTS that the antichrist/beast has NOT yet come, nor has the great trib occurred yet. And the "abomination of desolation" hasn't yet occurred, as there's been no temple for it to have occurred in. It did NOT occur on the temple of Jesus' time.

  You don't believe the trib won't come upon the whole world? Please carefully what JESUS said about it - Rev. 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

    Yes, the Jews were hit hard in AD 66-70, but they were hit much-harder beginning 135-136 AD when they were booted outta their land, then, hated & persecuted wherever they went for some 1800 years, culminating in the nazi holocaust. (After that, God began to lift their punishment & gave them powerful allies in the USA & Britain.)

   Jesus performed many miracles & said many things to His disciples that weren't recorded in Scripture. But every word he wanted recorded & preserved for all then-future generations WAS recorded. And Matt. 24:29-31 are among those words. Outside of the destruction of J & the temple, the rest simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED !  They're not found in any work of history !  Besides, the world goes right on, as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD. Jesus' return will completely change the world !

  Preterism is simply mens' guesswork, being promoted by Alcazar to try to keep his pope from being called the antichrist. It has no proof in history whatsoever.

[robycop3]

Jesus was addressing his disciples right in front of him. Obviously didn't happen in their day? That is one of the most stupidest statements one could take fropm the Text. I have a 12 month old on my lap , so there. She won't be taught any futuristic dogma I'm sure!,

  if those events happened then, they oughtta easily be found in any history book. However, there's absolutely NO reference to their occurrence in any legitimate work of history.

[lea]

They are. I described them in my previous post.
. You like history but still the man hears or reads what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

And most is right in your Bible, if one has any common sense and insight.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi robycop3,

Why are you even bothering to bring up Rev. 3:10 as proof of your position in your reply #131, when it's obvious you don't even believe what it says? 

We both agree that it's talking about a *WORLDWIDE* TRIBULATION there, but again, you are totally ignoring WHEN John said it would arrive on the calendar.  He said it was in the very near future for those he was writing to in the Philadelphia assembly.

"Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also thee will keep out of the hour of trial which IS *ABOUT TO COME* upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

If I say I am *ABOUT TO* LOG OFF this forum, it is patently ridiculous to say that 2,000 years and more will go by before I log off.  Same thing applies to John's words in Rev. 3:10.

John meant that his own generation was SOON "ABOUT TO" experience this period of WORLDWIDE TRIAL in THEIR days, which came to pass in that first-century generation, and definitely was recorded in "legitimate" eyewitness accounts of the time, as well as in scripture's record, as lea has said.  Apparently you just don't like the ramifications of what this recorded proof entails, so you ignore it and stick your fingers in your ears to avoid hearing it. 



For dpr,

My statement to you to "not worry" about being left out of the resurrection is not a "wisecrack" regarding your eternal destiny.  It is the very same reassurance that Paul directed to the Thessalonians saints, who thought they had missed the resurrection experience because Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching the church that the bodily resurrection of the saints had already passed by that time. 

In a way, they were right that the  "FIRST RESURRECTION" actually HAD come and gone in AD 33 (Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints being raised bodily from the dead).  But the anticipated SECOND RESURRECTION in the very near future in AD 70 was close at hand.  Paul was reassuring the believing relatives of the Thessalonian saints who had "fallen asleep" in Christ that the spirits of their dead loved ones were awaiting that soon-coming second resurrection, and their bodies would not be left behind in the grave as they feared would happen.

You and I, dpr, have the same reassurance that what God has done twice already, He will do again for the remainder of the New Covenant saints at a final THIRD RESURRECTION of the bodies of the saints in our future at the close of human history.  This, by the way, is far from being typical Full-Preterist dogma.

And this THIRD RESURRECTION in no way comes at the end of a FUTURE Rev.20 "millennium" as you suppose.  That literal thousand-year Rev. 20 millennium "expired" at the SAME TIME that Satan was loosed out of his prison into the earth, which John said was then a *PRESENT* DANGER happening at the very time he was writing.  "The Devil *IS* COME DOWN UNTO YOU, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME."  (Rev.12:12).  Meaning a "short time" contemporary with the time  John was composing Revelation in AD 59/60.  Which consequently means that the literal "millennium" had ALREADY FINISHED as John was writing.

Revelation is a road map for prophecies, but not many pay any attention to the "date stamp" John provides for their fulfillment with his multiplied number of IMMINENT time markers that saturate the book. 

You are also grossly misplacing the time for the "testimony" given in Mark 13:9-13.  For the disciples to be "delivered up to COUNCILS", rulers and kings was speaking about the antagonistic Jewish Sanhedrin of the first century, as well as the high priest "rulers of the people" as Paul called them.   To be "beaten in the SYNAGOGUES" or to be summoned to testify before a body of the Sanhedrin are NOT threats hanging over the saints today.  However, the book of Acts and Paul's epistles recount several examples of this type of persecution for the apostles and the disciples of the first century.

You are connecting these who give "testimony" in Mark 13:9-13 with those souls  under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11 begging for vengeance of their shed blood.  Yes, in a way they are connected, but not in the way you think. 

Those souls under the altar in Rev. 6:9 are the very same "elect" who were already praying day and night for vengeance in Luke 18:7-8 (mentioned along with the parable of the "unjust judge").   Jesus said of them that God would avenge His own elect "SPEEDILY", which came to pass in that same generation - NOT 2,000 years and more down the line. 

These "elect", or souls under the altar were each given a bodily resurrection (that "white garment") along with Christ (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints).  They were told to "WAIT a LITTLE SEASON" (the same "little season" that the Devil  was loosed on the earth just after AD33's resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-63 saints), until their fellow-servants joined them in persecuted martyrdom. 

Revelation 6:11 said that these "fellow-servants and brethren" were "ABOUT TO BE KILLED" in the same manner as those other souls under the altar had been killed - under persecution for their testimony.  There is ample proof in both secular history and scripture record of intense levels of first-century martyrdom for the saints under tribulation in those days.

This "ABOUT TO" phrase pinpoints the martyrdom of the "fellow-servants" in Rev. 6:9-11 to the time CONTEMPORARY with John's writing.  It does NOT apply to any future martyrs after the AD 70 second resurrection, because all of those who have been killed for their testimony since then are currently waiting for the final THIRD resurrection instead.

And YES, the story of the "two witnesses" is  indeed past history.  Their names were Joshua ben Gamaliel and Ananus ben Annas - both of them former high priests murdered in the streets of Jerusalem during the Idumean nighttime attack on Jerusalem in AD 67/68 with their two myriads of 20,000 warriors under four commanders.  The bodies of these two former high priests, Joshua and Ananus, were left unburied by the Zealots who rejoiced over their murder.  This particular Revelation 11 event has more precise historical records that match the scripture's language about them than just about any other prophecy in Revelation.  I have written about them several times before on this forum and on other websites as well, such as at the following link:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/how-do-preterists-view-the-2-witness-of-revelation/   reply #32

[robycop3]

Hi robycop3,

Why are you even bothering to bring up Rev. 3:10 as proof of your position in your reply #131, when it's obvious you don't even believe what it says?

  I believe it LITERALLY.

We both agree that it's talking about a *WORLDWIDE* TRIBULATION there, but again, you are totally ignoring WHEN John said it would arrive on the calendar.  He said it was in the very near future for those he was writing to in the Philadelphia assembly.

  Well, very-obviously, it DIDN'T occur then !

"Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also thee will keep out of the hour of trial which IS *ABOUT TO COME* upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

If I say I am *ABOUT TO* LOG OFF this forum, it is patently ridiculous to say that 2,000 years and more will go by before I log off.  Same thing applies to John's words in Rev. 3:10.

  Obviously, it DIDN'T, as the events haven't yet occurred. If I say, I'm ABOUT to do something, I'm gonna do it soon, as I'm not God & don't have forever to do something. God is outside of time as we know it. He made time for us.

John meant that his own generation was SOON "ABOUT TO" experience this period of WORLDWIDE TRIAL in THEIR days, which came to pass in that first-century generation, and definitely was recorded in "legitimate" eyewitness accounts of the time, as well as in scripture's record, as lea has said.  Apparently you just don't like the ramifications of what this recorded proof entails, so you ignore it and stick your fingers in your ears to avoid hearing it.  [/quote]

(Snipped to include only those parts addressed to me)

  Sir, with all due respect:

  I have Encyclopaedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia, & Collier's Encyclopedia right in fronta me, and not one of those respected & unbiased works of history have the occurrences of any of those events in them ! Rev. 13 gives a brief look at the antichrist & false prophet, & further chapters of rev describe the events of the great trib, & it's obvious that none of them have yet occurred !

  When did all life in the sea(Presumably the Mediterranean) die?
  When was Jerusalem split into 3 sections by an earthquake?
  When was there anyone who ruled the entire world & demanded everyone to worship him?
  When was the marka the beast issued, to replace all cash or plastic money?
  There are many other great trib events that haven't occurred, either, worldwide.

   And Jesus said that, if that time wasn't cut short, no flesh(man & animal) would survive.
   And He said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER those days, to be seen by ALL! Very obviously, He HAS NOT yet returned!

  History and reality makes liars outta every pret ! It's a false doctrine !

[lea]

As always, robycop3 has empty words and no proof for anything he claims in the Biblical eschatology.

Just a troll !

[3 Resurrections]

Hi robycop3,

The only "obvious" fact is that, by your statements, you are essentially calling the Apostle John a false prophet.  You appear to believe that your encyclopedia sources represent the sum of all knowledge, beyond what the inspired prophet John had to say.

Why are you willing to believe an encyclopedia over the prophet John?  If John said those future events in Revelation were "AT HAND", why would you want to call the prophet John a liar?  God already defined for us just how He wants you to understand that Rev. 1:3 and 22:10  phrase "AT HAND", as found earlier in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  It means those hearing any prophecy originally for the first time would experience the fulfillment of the prophecy in THEIR DAYS - they would NOT be "prolonged" into times that are "far off".

As I said above, you have the wrong "date stamp" on your prophetic road map to begin with, which sends all your interpretations of Bible prophecy off in the wrong direction.  Your interpretations are all based on your own perceptions and level of historical knowledge, which are not without limits. 

I trust the inspired prophetic words given to the Apostle John instead.  If he said "soon", "quickly", "about to come", and "at hand", he meant that the time for Revelation's prophetic fulfillments was contemporary to his own first-century generation. 

Get the "date stamp" right for Revelation, and you will get your interpretation of it right.  There are literal historical answers for every prophecy you mentioned (and any you didn't mention).  But until you get your head wrapped around that single phrase "AT HAND", you will continue to operate with your  prophetic compass off course.

[robycop3]

  Sorry, Sir; you're simply WRONG.

  I have not only the encyclopediae I mentioned earlier, but several other works of history as well, and NONE of them say the events you SAY have already happened, HAVE already happened ! besides that, I can simply look around. There's simply no sign of those events having already occurred !

When did all the life in the sea die? (You couldn't answer that one earlier !)
When, since before the exodus of Israel from Egypt has water been turned to blood, and worldwide at that ?
H U H ?

  Truth is, those things haven't yet happened! And JESUS certainly hasn't returned !

[lea]

  Sorry, Sir; you're simply WRONG.

  I have not only the encyclopediae I mentioned earlier, but several other works of history as well, and NONE of them say the events you SAY have already happened, HAVE already happened ! besides that, I can simply look around. There's simply no sign of those events having already occurred !

When did all the life in the sea die? (You couldn't answer that one earlier !)
When, since before the exodus of Israel from Egypt has water been turned to blood, and worldwide at that ?
H U H ?

  Truth is, those things haven't yet happened! And JESUS certainly hasn't returned !

Truth is you lack understanding for sure in the book of Revelation. Knowledge is power and you have little! Looking for literal fulfillment in prophetic apocalyptic language is your weakness and it's a big one! You don't know zilch about when and where to apply literal language and where to apply figurative prophetic language.

robycop3 just sings the same old childish words of the flesh and is a troll to those in the know.

https://www.crosswalk.com/slideshows/10-common-mistakes-people-make-when-reading-revelation.html