This Generation~Matthew 24:34

[robycop3]

  M'am, you cannot prove a thing you say.

  You call the words of certain Scriptures "apolyptic, figurative, symbolic", etc. because they don't fit your imagination & your invented history. fact is, most Scripture is LITERAL, but you'd rather believe man-made garbage, such as that of Alcazar, Gentry, Preston, etc. and not face REALITY.

**preterism - phony as a ford corvette !**

[robycop3]

  As for this thread's original theme, "this generation" is clearly the one that shall see all these things fulfilled, as it's quite-obvious they have NOT been yet fulfilled !

[lea]

  As for this thread's original theme, "this generation" is clearly the one that shall see all these things fulfilled, as it's quite-obvious they have NOT been yet fulfilled !

Yea, you keep saying that over and over. How boring!

[robycop3]

Yea, you keep saying that over and over. How boring!

But you CANNOT disprove it.

[lea]

But you CANNOT disprove it.

Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

Who can teach you about "this generation" if Jesus cannot?

[robycop3]

Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

Who can teach you about "this generation" if Jesus cannot?

  Jesus DID teach me. One generation will see all these events, as He said. But they haven't yet happened.

Proof?

Very easy and profound - Jesus hasn't yet returned.

[lea]

  Jesus DID teach me. One generation will see all these events, as He said. But they haven't yet happened.

Proof?

Very easy and profound - Jesus hasn't yet returned.

Too easy. It takes study and comparing Scripture with Scripture. Noting also the experiences of the apostles and the events Jesus told them would occur before the destruction of Jerusalem and the promise to Israel of the Resurrection. (Daniel12)

[robycop3]

  No, those things in Daniel 12 have NOT yet occurred, especially the great trib. Remember, Jesus said He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib is ended.

  TRUTH is, the eschatological events are yet to occur. No getting around it.

[lea]

  No, those things in Daniel 12 have NOT yet occurred, especially the great trib. Remember, Jesus said He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib is ended.

  TRUTH is, the eschatological events are yet to occur. No getting around it.

Truth is, you keep repeating yourself saying nothing.

[M Luther]

Right, but there is actually more Scripture proof that He meant those signs in His Olivet discourse for the end of this present world, and not 70 A.D. The way we know that is by parallel study of His Olivet discourse with the Seals of Revelation 6 given to His Church.

You have argued that "this generation" couldn't have meant 70 AD because in your eschatology it's still the future?   Can you see why none of us find that a compelling argument?

I guess I'll just throw out such counter reasons as if Jesus didn't mean his generation then he didn't answer the question that he was going through the motion of answering.  Do you know the question?   

[M Luther]

Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

The person to whom you addressed that looks like nothing but a troll.  He never adds anything of value to any thread, but that doesn't stop him from prolific posting, mostly the same nonsense over and over.

[robycop3]

Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

Who can teach you about "this generation" if Jesus cannot?

  No, they didn't. It was guesswork, not FACTS.

[robycop3]

The person to whom you addressed that looks like nothing but a troll.  He never adds anything of value to any thread, but that doesn't stop him from prolific posting, mostly the same nonsense over and over.

  Can YOU prove preterism true ? Betcha can't !

[lea]

  Can YOU prove preterism true ? Betcha can't !

Not to you! The eyes of the flesh won't be able to recognize Christ's spiritual kingdom (and maybe the blessings associated with it too)  Sorry!

[robycop3]

Not to you! The eyes of the flesh won't be able to recognize Christ's spiritual kingdom (and maybe the blessings associated with it too)  Sorry!

Sorry, M'am; you can't prove it true to ANYONE. Again, there's simply no evidence that the events you SAY have occurred, HAVE already occurred. They're not found in history at all.

[lea]

Sorry, M'am; you can't prove it true to ANYONE. Again, there's simply no evidence that the events you SAY have occurred, HAVE already occurred. They're not found in history at all.

No, you're the exception (in a negative way).

P.S.- I reported you for trolling!

[robycop3]

No, you're the exception (in a negative way).

P.S.- I reported you for trolling!

  No trolling. I asked for EVIDENCE to prove your assertions, and you've provided none. So, technically, YOU could be a troll for posting wild, unsubstantiated tall tales. I posted Scriptural prophecies which you said were already fulfilled, but you can't provide one quark of PROOF.

So, WHO's the REAL troll ?

[lea]

  No trolling. I asked for EVIDENCE to prove your assertions, and you've provided none. So, technically, YOU could be a troll for posting wild, unsubstantiated tall tales. I posted Scriptural prophecies which you said were already fulfilled, but you can't provide one quark of PROOF.

So, WHO's the REAL troll ?

You already got your evidence in previous posts. If you disagree, you should just say that and leave it at that. You only try to prove your points by comparing the Bible to events of today. The Bible wasn't written to us, but for us.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

[robycop3]

  The Bible was written both TO us & FOR us. And, M'am, I have several encyclopediae in front of me as well as several other works of history, as well as a whole internet full of intel, plus a general knowledge gained from 71 years of living & several HS & college history courses. And NONE of the prophesied eschatological  events you SAY have happened are found in them, except as repeats of Scriptural prophecy.

  And reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolic/figurative" status just won't work. the record of Jesus' literally-fulfilled prophecies kills that goofy stuff. Jesus prophesied that not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, & the proof of that literal fulfillment lies on Mt. Zion today. And archaeological evidence confirms the historical accounts of Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70.

  But Jesus prophesied WORLDWIDE great tribulation, that'll be the worst in history. Don't think it's worldwide ?  Here's what else Jesus said:
Rev. 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Now, when did all life in the sea die? (Presuming it's the Mediterranean)
When has the sun scorched men with fire? (Not counting sunburn, which is as old as mankind)
When was the marka the beast issued, by whom, & what does it look like ?
When was modern Babylon (Presumably Rome, italy) destroyed ?
If the great trib has occurred, WHEN DID JESUS RETURN, SEEN BY ALL, AS HE SAID ?

[lea]

  The Bible was written both TO us & FOR us. And, M'am, I have several encyclopediae in front of me as well as several other works of history, as well as a whole internet full of intel, plus a general knowledge gained from 71 years of living & several HS & college history courses. And NONE of the prophesied eschatological  events you SAY have happened are found in them, except as repeats of Scriptural prophecy.

  And reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolic/figurative" status just won't work. the record of Jesus' literally-fulfilled prophecies kills that goofy stuff. Jesus prophesied that not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, & the proof of that literal fulfillment lies on Mt. Zion today. And archaeological evidence confirms the historical accounts of Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70.

  But Jesus prophesied WORLDWIDE great tribulation, that'll be the worst in history. Don't think it's worldwide ?  Here's what else Jesus said:
Rev. 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Now, when did all life in the sea die? (Presuming it's the Mediterranean)
When has the sun scorched men with fire? (Not counting sunburn, which is as old as mankind)
When was the marka the beast issued, by whom, & what does it look like ?
When was modern Babylon (Presumably Rome, italy) destroyed ?
If the great trib has occurred, WHEN DID JESUS RETURN, SEEN BY ALL, AS HE SAID ?

You don't seem to understand APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE in any of your questions. And mystery Babylon was Jerusalem (where the Lord was crucified).

You can learn more if you want to.

You are correct about one thing though.... the judgment was upon the whole world and not just on the Jews.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/0000_preston_local-judgment/

     When was this to happen? Read verse 36. "Assuredly, I say to you all these things shall come upon this generation".

     The evidence is overwhelming to the candid student. The destruction of Jerusalem was far more than the fall of a Jewish city. There were universal, spiritual, eternal realities at work, "behind the scenes", but very present and very real nonetheless.
     Summary

     We have examined the contention that Jerusalem's fall was simply a localized judgment on the Jews. We have shown from Jesus' own words that he did not consider it to be so. The whole world (oikoumene), which was to hear the message of judgment, Matthew 24:14, was to be judged, Acts 17:30-31; and be in distress, Luke 21:25-26, Revelation 3:10. We have seen this was definitely to happen in that generation.

     Further, we have demonstrated that other New Testament writers taught that "universal judgment" was imminent, Matthew 16:27-28, cf. Revelation 22:12. Peter taught it, 1 Peter 4:5,7,17; James 5:7-9 and others.

     Finally, we have seen Jesus unequivocally state that the judgment of all the dead, all the way back to creation, was to be when Jerusalem fell, Matthew 23:29-39.

     For all these reasons and more we find untenable the contention that the fall of Jerusalem was a localized judgment. It was in fact the universal judgment of the living and the dead!

[3 Resurrections]

Robycop3, you're not getting answers to the questions you are demanding because you are asking the wrong questions. 

#1)  It was NOT as you are saying, "all life in the sea" that died (as in all marine life in the ocean); it was "every LIVING *SOUL* died in the sea".  Fulfilled as in Josephus' account of the death of all those Israelite pirate sailors who had fled to the sea from the city of Joppa on the Mediterranean coast in Wars 3.9.2-3.  I suggest you read the account, if you haven't already.  Blood from multiple thousands of all those dead Israelite sailors filled the sea for a "long way", by Josephus' record.

#2)  It was NOT as you are saying, that the SUN scorched men with fire in Rev. 16:8-9; scripture says it was the ANGEL that did this.  "Power was given unto HIM to scorch men with fire".  The "sun" in this context receiving JUDGMENT by the fourth angel's vial is the same "sun" that is now absent in the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21:23.  The sun is a representation of the high priest leadership of Israel, (rather like Joseph's dream of the sun, moon, and stars picturing his father, mother, and the sons of Jacob respectively).  No "sun" or "moon" in the New Jerusalem means no more Levitical high priesthood or priests, since we now have the "Lamb" serving as our high priest.  WE as saints are now kings and priests unto God ourselves, each with open access to the mercy seat.

#3)  Scripture never says that the mark of the Beast would replace all plastic or cash money, as you presume. I've already told you before what the mark of the Beast from the land (of Israel) was, and when it was issued, and what it looked like.  It was the Tyrian shekel and half shekel, minted in Jerusalem by the request of the high priesthood, as a favor granted by the permission and authorization of Rome in 19 BC.  Which Tyrian shekel and half-shekel were required by the priests for all Temple sales and purchases and yearly Temple Tax.  Covered with abominable, forbidden images and inscriptions, but forced upon the people of Israel by their leaders, and which gave unspoken homage to Rome (as the Sea Beast) and its pagan gods.  You need a picture for documentation?  You can buy one online for about 7 to 8 hundred bucks.   Google it.

#4)  And scripture never says that it was going to be "MODERN Babylon" that would be destroyed, as you presume.  It was going to be "Babylon the great" (Rev. 17:5) which would be destroyed, which was the same as "That great city" (Rev. 17:18), which was also "the great city ...where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).  Undoubtedly, this was Old Covenant Jerusalem which had the blood of the apostles, prophets, and martyred saints  on its hands (Rev.18:24) as Jesus had accused Jerusalem of being guilty of these crimes (Luke 11:49-51 and Matthew 24:34-37).

#5)  You are presuming that John prophesied that "every eye" seeing Christ's return to earth would be every eye of every person on the globe simultaneously seeing Him.  John didn't say this.  John expressly LIMITED his statement to apply *SPECIFICALLY* TO "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM".  That's what the word "even" means in Rev. 1:7 - "EVEN they which pierced Him" means "NAMELY" or "SPECIFICALLY those which pierced Him" who would be the ones that would see Christ bodily returning with His angels. 

Some of that generation who were there when Jesus was crucified were still alive to see Him from inside Jerusalem when He bodily returned to the Mount of Olives, as Christ predicted in Matthew 16:27-28.  Those wicked ones who pierced Him who had died in the interim saw Him returning in their "resurrection to damnation" in AD 70 Jerusalem, when they were destroyed, body and soul.  Death and those wicked in the grave were cast into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire during its "Second death" at that time, to exist no more afterward.

#6)  Scripture never says in Rev. 16:19 that the EARTHQUAKE would split Jerusalem into three different sections of land portions.  These "Three PARTS" that Jerusalem was divided into were a replica of Ezekiel's prophecy of Jerusalem's INHABITANTS being divided into experiencing three different types of disasters that befell them during the Babylonian invasion.  One third of Jerusalem's people at that time would die from pestilence and famine; another third would fall to the sword; and a final third would be scattered to all the winds, with a sword drawn after them (Ezekiel 5:12).   Ezekiel pictured these three disasters by dividing up the shaved hair of his head into "three PARTS" (Ezekiel 5:1-2)

These three disasters that 586 BC Jerusalem experienced were exactly the same three fates that awaited Jerusalem's inhabitants in the AD 70 era during its destruction.  All of which is documented in historical record.

You may reject all of these points, robycop3, but you are not actually the audience I am writing them for anyway. 

[dpr]

You have argued that "this generation" couldn't have meant 70 AD because in your eschatology it's still the future?   Can you see why none of us find that a compelling argument?

I guess I'll just throw out such counter reasons as if Jesus didn't mean his generation then he didn't answer the question that he was going through the motion of answering.  Do you know the question?

I don't have to make some compelling argument to please people who think like you. The Scriptures are their own evidence, either one accepts them as written, or they reject them. And that involves using proper grammar also as to what is written, not adding doctrines of men that aren't even there in the first place.

Nor can you put your own twist on what Jesus meant in His Olivet discourse to serve a tradition of men you instead want to push. The Scripture only need to be read in simplicity.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi dpr,

I understand the point M Luther was trying to make (though it was phrased in a manner that was slightly confusing).

Basically, M Luther's accusation against robycop3's line of reasoning is that his main foundation for interpretation of scriptural eschatology is based solely on his own observations and understanding of history as he is aware of it.  His hermeneutics are flawed from the very beginning, because he is setting up his interpretations with HIMSELF and his sources of knowledge about world history as the ultimate interpreter of all things eschatological.  Not the wisest debate practice if one wants to arrive at scriptural truth, since his knowledge and his sources are limited in scope.

This is why I am continually pressing him on the "AT HAND" temporal limits that John put on his own writing in Revelation (Rev.1:3, and 22:10).  God's own precise definition of what He means by an "AT HAND" prophecy in Ezekiel 12:21-28 CANNOT be disregarded when understanding and interpreting Revelation.  We MUST *START* our interpretations of eschatology with the terms that God Himself uses  to limit His own prophetic writing, or we veer off in the wrong direction at the very outset of our study.  First things first.

You are quite correct that we are to "accept scripture as written" - especially those "AT HAND" temporal limits for Revelation - using proper grammar to understand this phrase.  It is indeed, as you say, reading scripture in true "simplicity" that leads to a Preterist type of understanding of Revelation.  I have had to dump the "traditions of men" that I was raised with regarding the meaning of "THIS generation" to arrive at the paradigm I now hold.

[robycop3]

1.) Pure guesswork. There were many more sailors in the Mediterranean then than a few Israeli pirates. And they didn't even begin to all die at any time. The Scripture makes no mention of pirates. rev. 16:3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

2.)  Again, another pret episode of symbolizing literal Scripture! Rev. 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire.

3.) HORSE FEATHERS ! The Scripture says the mark's recipients will receive it on their right hands or foreheads. Know anyone wearing a shekel on his/her forehead ? The mark has NOT yet been given, & it'll most likely be some sorta microchip. The tech exists NOW !

4.) OLD Babylon no longer exists. Look what happened to Saddam Hussein for trying to rebuild it ! The present Babylon is likely Rome, italy.

5.)  MMRRPP !WRONG !
     John wrote "EVEN those who pierced Him" ! That shows that 'those who pierced him' could not ordinarily see His return, if He doesn't cause them to. That means all souls in hades will see His return, as He told John by saying "ALL" ! Who does "all" leave out ? ? ?
   Jesus has NOT yet returned! You're making that stuff up, & it's phony as a Ford Corvette ! You might as well chuck that garbage, as you don't have one quark of PROOF for it.

6.) Again, you're trying to shoehorn something into a fulfillment of prophecy, trying to place a square peg into a round hole. First, the Rev wasn't given til after the destruction of J & the temple. Second, the Scriptures say it'll be the mightiest earthquake ever, not just in Jerusalem, accompanied by a rain of rocks. And all the islands will be "fled away" !

  You're desperately trying to justify pret garbage by reducing some Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status, while ignoring the LITERAL fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies up til now.

Isn't Judah being restored?
Isn't Egypt (Pop. 80 million) afraid of Israel? (Pop. 6 million)(as per Isaiah 19)
Hasn't there been a "great falling away", with acceptance of LGBTQ, fornication, abortion, etc. etc?
Wise, up, Sir, & toss all that garbage by Preston, Gentry, etc ! It's all a lie !

[lea]

Quote from: robycop3 on Today at 17:07:07


    6.) Again, you're trying to shoehorn something into a fulfillment of prophecy, trying to place a square peg into a round hole. First, the Rev wasn't given til after the destruction of J & the temple. Second, the Scriptures say it'll be the mightiest earthquake ever, not just in Jerusalem, accompanied by a rain of rocks. And all the islands will be "fled away" !

Wow, what a messed up reality that looks like.
So glad I was spared from that junk. Do futurists have a mind of their own? or do they just believe it like law and not see that preachers make (mock) the book of Revelation like a fictional movie?

It's making the same mistake as the Pharisees in Jesus' day, looking for a fleshly kingdom to rule over Rome.


Proverbs 13:12 KJV - Hope deferred maketh the heart sick ...

The apostles were expecting the Lord to "return" in their lifetime.  Deal with it!

[3 Resurrections]

Robycop3, not a single one of your interpretations for Revelation can even remotely qualify as being a fulfillment of an "AT HAND" prophecy of Revelation.  Anything "AT HAND" was timed to occur in "this generation" of John's immediate audience. 

This particular time limit is not MY invention, or any other Preterist's.  It's GOD'S definition, as found in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  You are ignoring God's strict time limit put upon this "AT HAND" phrase.   The present day microchip, the modern state of Israel, modern Egypt and Israel's current relationship - all these you mentioned have NOTHING to do with John's generation that expected the soon fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies that were "AT HAND" in THEIR days. 

It's amazing how you studiously ignore this critical point, and instead use your own experience and knowledge as the benchmark by which we are to interpret these prophecies.  Whether you intend to or not, it is pure vanity on display to set your own level of knowledge against God's stipulated standard by which we are to interpret everything He revealed to John.

Nothing you say has any credibility until you can address God's definition of what an "AT HAND" prophecy is according to Ezekiel 12:21-28.  If you don't start with that to begin with, you will inevitably miss John's meaning for every near-future prophecy between the "AT HAND" term limits found in Rev.1:3 and Rev. 22:10.

[robycop3]

  Sir, no matter how many times you repeat "at hand", the TRUTH is, THE ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED ! There's simply no getting around that great big mountain of a FACT. trying to shoehorn in other events as fulfillment of those prophecies simply won't work. Square peg, round hole.

[3 Resurrections]

Sir, no matter how many times you repeat that "It hasn't happened yet", you are in denial of God's clear-cut statement that those prophesied events were "AT HAND", or "present" for that first-century generation in THEIR DAYS.  It takes the humble faith of a little child to surrender ones own ideas, and to accept God's words on the subject as the ultimate determining factor.  In effect, you are calling both Jesus and John liars.

Dpr was quite correct on the other thread that understanding eschatology needs "simplicity" and an understanding of "proper grammar", plus a willingness to discard the "traditions of men" if necessary, in order to interpret scripture correctly.

We serve a God who is constantly doing things beyond our expectations.   Why should eschatology be any different?

[robycop3]

 Well, the "simplicity" is that those events have NOT yet happened. As I said, I have access to extensive works of history, and the occurrence of those events would NOT have been overlooked!

  And reducing those prophecies to "figurative/symbolic" status won't work. Jesus' other prophecies in that set have LITERALLY cometa pass, & there's no reason to not believe the rest won't cometa pass just-as-literally.

[3 Resurrections]

And as I said, you are still calling Jesus and John liars by not believing their dictates of how to interpret their "AT HAND" prophecies in Ezekiel and Revelation.  This is not wise to believe your own limited knowledge and resources over and above God Himself.

And you are presuming that no Christian of the first century ever recorded Christ's physical, LITERAL return in the clouds once it happened.  We are still continuing to uncover ancient artifacts today by archeological research, you know.  Like those four boat anchors recently found on the Mediterranean sea floor that were cut off of the ship during Paul's perilous voyage to Rome.  Like the 40 feet layer of rubble in the Kidron Valley from the AD 70 earthquake when the peak of the Mount of Olives broke apart and slid down the mountain's slopes to fill up the valley below as far as Azal.  This happened in specific, LITERAL fulfillment of Zechariah 14:4-5 LXX's prophecy for Christ's second coming return.  Already happened.  Physical, LITERAL proof is there to see and analyze.

[robycop3]

  Your "proof' is rather bogus. Many ancient ships foundered or sank in the Med, & many cut their anchors for various reasons.

  And, when the Mt. of Olives DOES split, it'll create a VALLEY, not a rubble heap.

And, of course, you ignore what JESUS HIMSELF said about His retuen. He said He will come IN GREAT POWER & GLORY, & will be seen by all, even those who pierced Him. He said His return will be visible as lightning.

  Sorry, chap; you still haven't proven a thing.

[dpr]

Hi dpr,

I understand the point M Luther was trying to make (though it was phrased in a manner that was slightly confusing).

Basically, M Luther's accusation against robycop3's line of reasoning is that his main foundation for interpretation of scriptural eschatology is based solely on his own observations and understanding of history as he is aware of it.  His hermeneutics are flawed from the very beginning, because he is setting up his interpretations with HIMSELF and his sources of knowledge about world history as the ultimate interpreter of all things eschatological.  Not the wisest debate practice if one wants to arrive at scriptural truth, since his knowledge and his sources are limited in scope.

That of course is just your opinion, and doesn't reveal the Truth of the simple Scriptures in question. Anyone can just say, "their hermeneutics is flawed, etc." and it means absolutely nothing without going to the Scriptures to provide proof. We don't see those on Preterism being able to provide Scripture proof to back up their claim, and your claim is certainly no exception.

This is why I am continually pressing him on the "AT HAND" temporal limits that John put on his own writing in Revelation (Rev.1:3, and 22:10).  God's own precise definition of what He means by an "AT HAND" prophecy in Ezekiel 12:21-28 CANNOT be disregarded when understanding and interpreting Revelation.  We MUST *START* our interpretations of eschatology with the terms that God Himself uses  to limit His own prophetic writing, or we veer off in the wrong direction at the very outset of our study.  First things first.

Using that "at hand" as a pointer to only Apostle John's era is fallacy. It's simply a sole Greek word (eggus) which means 'near'. How near? Doesn't tell us. What in Revelation does... tell us how near those events are? The Signs Jesus gave John to write down, of course, the very events. And they happen to be the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse also, also linked with what the OT prophets showed for the end of this world, and also linked with many NT passages about the events at the end of this world. There is so much other Scripture proof for the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials in Revelation being about the end of this world leading up to Christ's 2nd coming, that it is impossible to read very far in all of God's Word and not run into that Scripture evidence. But Preterism wants to stop use of all that Scripture evidence and just do a poker bluff against it using that one Greek word for 'near'? No, that doesn't work, and that bluff is a major sign in itself showing the crept in unawares of Jude 1 working against Christ and His Word. They are the ones who want to destroy all that Scripture evidence about the end of this world.

You are quite correct that we are to "accept scripture as written" - especially those "AT HAND" temporal limits for Revelation - using proper grammar to understand this phrase.  It is indeed, as you say, reading scripture in true "simplicity" that leads to a Preterist type of understanding of Revelation.  I have had to dump the "traditions of men" that I was raised with regarding the meaning of "THIS generation" to arrive at the paradigm I now hold.

That's just another 'bluff'.

Reading God's Word in its simplicity debunks man's doctrines of Preterism. (It debunks a Pre-trib Rapture too, so you can't just slap seminary labels on someone who stays with what is actually written in God's Word.)

[dpr]

I have had to dump the "traditions of men" that I was raised with regarding the meaning of "THIS generation" to arrive at the paradigm I now hold.

In Christ's Olivet discourse, He made it very simple as to what 'generation' He was pointing to. He tied 'all these things' meaning all those 7 Signs He gave being for the generation living that would see them.

The last sign He gave was the 1 Thessalonians 4 gathering of resurrected saints with alive saints on the last day of this world (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

That event of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church is Bible prophesy in many New Testament Scriptures, and in Old Testament Scripture. So to assign that event as past history is to mock much of the direct Bible evidence, including direct statements as to how Jesus and His Apostles said His Church will be gathered on the last day.


Preterism is a design by Satan's hosts who want to create a mimic of Christ's future Kingdom here on earth. You just don't realize that yet.

The reason why Preterism tries to make Christian brethren believe that Christ's Kingdom is already established here on earth today in full, all Scripture fulfilled, is actually in preparation for the coming "strong delusion" by the Antichrist that's coming, and whom the false Jews will setup as 'king of the world' (their label, not mine). That is their plan for our near future. And it's that one-world government movement during the coming tribulation that will be a kingdom of the devil here on earth for the very end; that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were warning His servants about, so that we would not be deceived at the end.

The reality is that Christ's Kingdom is only spiritually established here on earth today, through His many-membered body of believers. It is not yet LITERALLY established here on earth as it is written that it will be when Jesus returns to this earth to reign over ALL nations.

[3 Resurrections]

Dpr, lets keep this really, really simple.  Since my usual practice is to post a lot of material (with plenty of scripture to back up my points), I'll only post a single text comparison that you need to address in order to validate your position.

You, and those who hold to a like paradigm, have not given an answer to God's lengthy definition of what an "AT HAND" prophecy includes in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  Your entire viewpoint of all of Revelation's prophecies having fulfillment in our future goes up in smoke if you cannot counter God's definition of this kind of "AT HAND" prophecy.   "AT HAND", as Jarrod has already pointed out before, means "PRESENT".   Or, as God has already explained it in Ezekiel 12:21-28, an "AT HAND" prophecy is NOT "PROLONGED" into "TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF".  It is fulfilled "IN *YOUR DAYS*" to the ones hearing it originally.  An "AT HAND" prophecy is not only spoken by God, but it it also "performed" and is "done" in the days of those hearing it for the first time when God "says the word".

Please respond to this one Ezekiel 12:21-28 text.  If you can't, or you avoid answering it, you have lost all credibility.

[dpr]

Dpr, lets keep this really, really simple.  Since my usual practice is to post a lot of material (with plenty of scripture to back up my points), I'll only post a single text comparison that you need to address in order to validate your position.

Nah, your usual practice is to post a lot 'theory' and try to use Scripture that doesn't support your theories. Most of your posts involve very little Scripture I've noticed, so no since in trying to make excuses for not posting Scripture backup now!

You, and those who hold to a like paradigm, have not given an answer to God's lengthy definition of what an "AT HAND" prophecy includes in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  Your entire viewpoint of all of Revelation's prophecies having fulfillment in our future goes up in smoke if you cannot counter God's definition of this kind of "AT HAND" prophecy.   "AT HAND", as Jarrod has already pointed out before, means "PRESENT".

I already covered what "at hand" in Revelation 1:3 means per the NT Greek. It's simply a Greek word that means 'near'. It's an adverb. It does NOT give a specific time. So you can't use that to infer those Revelation events all happened in Apostle John's days. And I never said all of Christ's Book of Revelation was future. His seven Messages He gave to the Churches through John were historical. But they still apply to all Churches today too though, even though He first gave them back in history. And I recognize that John was prisoner on the Isle of Patmos during the reign of emperor Domitian, which was also historical.

Following the Scriptures as written makes recognizing the difference between Bible history and future prophetic events yet to come very easy. So how is the Ezekiel 12:21-28 passage different than Rev.1:3?

Simplicity in reading the Scriptures always... wins. The answer is simple, in Rev.1:3, there is no indicator those events given John would happen in his day. In the Ezekiel 12 warning there is more indicators as to the timing meant there, so that is what modified the meaning of "at hand" there. But there is nothing in Rev.1 to modify that adverb "at hand" for John's day. Jesus was saying, it's near to come. He didn't say when there. But, in the later Revelation chapters He did show events leading up to His return, and they parallel the Signs He gave us in His Olivet discourse leading up to the day of His 2nd coming, and He commanded us to watch those things. In that respect, those Signs He gave modifies His meaning of "at hand" in Rev.1:3.

So WHY aren't you focusing on those SIGNS He gave us leading up to His return in His Olivet discourse and in His Revelation, instead of only focusing on the adverb 'near' ("at hand" in Rev.1:3)? You want to know how 'near' ("at hand") those things coming are, then focus on those SIGNS He commanded us to watch!