Just wondering

[MeMyself]

I sometimes hear men describe wives or their wife as "willful".  Has anyone ever heard of a husband described this way?

[soterion]

I sometimes hear men describe wives or their wife as "willful".  Has anyone ever heard of a husband described this way?

I guess husbands might be more prone to the description of stubborn.

Don't the two mean about the same thing? Both refer to a certain level of obstinance (not necessarily a negative).

[chosenone]

I wonder what they mean by wilful? Do they mean that they actually have their own minds??? I tend to hear the words controlling used more, for men and women.

[DaveW]

Not using that phrase but the sentiment - absolutely.  It usually was more specific:

"I knew we were supposed to do X but HE insisted on doing Y."

It usually means that the person saying that has the notion that "I know what God's best is so just shut the heck up and go along for the ride.  When I want your opinion I will give it to you. "

[MeMyself]

I wonder what they mean by wilful? Do they mean that they actually have their own minds??? I tend to hear the words controlling used more, for men and women.

That's what I wonder too...it makes me think of a description you would use for a child as well.  I realize I am probably very sensitive to it being that I was always silenced *as* a child, and made to feel I had no right to a voice, so when words like this come up, I get kinda prickly.

Husbands, does a willful wife mean a person who knows their mind, is confident and will speak their mind, but who is willing to compromise at the same time?

[MeMyself]

Not using that phrase but the sentiment - absolutely.  It usually was more specific:

"I knew we were supposed to do X but HE insisted on doing Y."

It usually means that the person saying that has the notion that "I know what God's best is so just shut the heck up and go along for the ride.  When I want your opinion I will give it to you. "

Yeah...that's the image I get when I hear it...

[DaveW]

Husbands, does a willful wife mean a person who knows their mind, is confident and will speak their mind, but who is willing to compromise at the same time?

From what I have seen, most men growing up in church environments in the 40s and 50s get really nervous when any woman is "confident and will speak [her] mind."  My dad's understanding of the proper meaning of "wives submit yourselves to your husbands"(Ephesians 5:22) was that every woman was the slave to every male in her life. To him any child or woman that expressed an opinion or feeling was in rebellion to God. (even if it agreed with his opinion)

To me it is fortunate that men of that generation are now dying off.  Hopefully we will eventually be rid of those minsets; at least in most of the church world.

[MeMyself]

Husbands, does a willful wife mean a person who knows their mind, is confident and will speak their mind, but who is willing to compromise at the same time?

From what I have seen, most men growing up in church environments in the 40s and 50s get really nervous when any woman is "confident and will speak [her] mind."  My dad's understanding of the proper meaning of "wives submit yourselves to your husbands"(Ephesians 5:22) was that every woman was the slave to every male in her life. To him any child or woman that expressed an opinion or feeling was in rebellion to God.

ugh.  Hurts to read...lol.

[MeMyself]

  Hopefully we will eventually be rid of those minsets; at least in most of the church world.

Amen! :D

[DaveW]

There have been many mis-understandings that have stood in the church for centuries that over the last several decades have started to crumble.  And it is about time.

While I see in scripture the place of male leadership - paul says the congregational leaders are to be "husband of one wife." By mentioning the wives of leaders - I see that as inclusion. I serve on the deacon board of my congregation.  All "official" deacons and elders are men, but at our level the wives attend the meetings, take part in the discussions and get to vote on issues along with us men.  IMO we are the better and stronger for it.         

It is my understanding that wives do NOT usually meet in elders' meetings due to frequent sensitive and private issues being discussed; but do weigh in on less private issues in discussions at home.

[MeMyself]

There have been many mis-understandings that have stood in the church for centuries that over the last several decades have started to crumble.  And it is about time.

While I see in scripture the place of male leadership - paul says the congregational leaders are to be "husband of one wife." By mentioning the wives of leaders - I see that as inclusion. I serve on the deacon board of my congregation.  All "official" deacons and elders are men, but at our level the wives attend the meetings, take part in the discussions and get to vote on issues along with us men.  IMO we are the better and stronger for it.         

It is my understanding that wives do NOT usually meet in elders' meetings due to frequent sensitive and private issues being discussed; but do weigh in on less private issues in discussions at home.

This is IMO a very balance way to approach things, it is very encouraging and I thank you for sharing it.

[AVZ]

I sometimes hear men describe wives or their wife as "willful".  Has anyone ever heard of a husband described this way?

Whats wrong with a wife that's full of will?

[MeMyself]

I sometimes hear men describe wives or their wife as "willful".  Has anyone ever heard of a husband described this way?

Whats wrong with a wife that's full of will?

LOL!  Good point! I don't know..but when I've seen or heard it said, its mostly as a negative.

I like people who are spunky and strong willed.  They are the most fun IMO.

I also get a kick out of quirky, strong willed and exuberant kids...most people do NOT.

[chosenone]

Husbands, does a willful wife mean a person who knows their mind, is confident and will speak their mind, but who is willing to compromise at the same time?

From what I have seen, most men growing up in church environments in the 40s and 50s get really nervous when any woman is "confident and will speak [her] mind."  My dad's understanding of the proper meaning of "wives submit yourselves to your husbands"(Ephesians 5:22) was that every woman was the slave to every male in her life. To him any child or woman that expressed an opinion or feeling was in rebellion to God. (even if it agreed with his opinion)

To me it is fortunate that men of that generation are now dying off.  Hopefully we will eventually be rid of those minsets; at least in most of the church world.

Amen. I believe that a lot men are afraid of strong women. They feel intimidated and threatened.
 
I love this verse.
Proverbs 12v4
  A virtuous and worthy wife [earnest and strong in character] is a crowning joy to her husband, but she who makes him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

[AVZ]

Husbands, does a willful wife mean a person who knows their mind, is confident and will speak their mind, but who is willing to compromise at the same time?

From what I have seen, most men growing up in church environments in the 40s and 50s get really nervous when any woman is "confident and will speak [her] mind."  My dad's understanding of the proper meaning of "wives submit yourselves to your husbands"(Ephesians 5:22) was that every woman was the slave to every male in her life. To him any child or woman that expressed an opinion or feeling was in rebellion to God. (even if it agreed with his opinion)

To me it is fortunate that men of that generation are now dying off.  Hopefully we will eventually be rid of those minsets; at least in most of the church world.

Amen. I believe that a lot men are afraid of strong women. They feel intimidated and threatened.
 
I love this verse.
Proverbs 12v4
  A virtuous and worthy wife [earnest and strong in character] is a crowning joy to her husband, but she who makes him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

I doubt that is the case.
I think many men simply chose not to go enter into a confrontation: Hell hath no fury....

[MeMyself]

At my house, there are many strong willed people.

We see it as a gift from God.  We are strong in our convictions, in our love for each other, in our devotion to family the people around us and to God.

It is important, however not to let that gift me warped into being stiff necked.

Stiff necked is rebellious, demanding, unkind, self-centered.

A willful wife isn't a bad thing, neither is a strong husband (gosh, I wish women got that label instead of willful  ) UNLESS they abuse the gift God has given them and turn into a stiff necked person.

[chosenone]

Husbands, does a willful wife mean a person who knows their mind, is confident and will speak their mind, but who is willing to compromise at the same time?

From what I have seen, most men growing up in church environments in the 40s and 50s get really nervous when any woman is "confident and will speak [her] mind."  My dad's understanding of the proper meaning of "wives submit yourselves to your husbands"(Ephesians 5:22) was that every woman was the slave to every male in her life. To him any child or woman that expressed an opinion or feeling was in rebellion to God. (even if it agreed with his opinion)

To me it is fortunate that men of that generation are now dying off.  Hopefully we will eventually be rid of those minsets; at least in most of the church world.

Amen. I believe that a lot men are afraid of strong women. They feel intimidated and threatened.
 
I love this verse.
Proverbs 12v4
  A virtuous and worthy wife [earnest and strong in character] is a crowning joy to her husband, but she who makes him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

I doubt that is the case.
I think many men simply chose not to go enter into a confrontation: Hell hath no fury....

Yes that as well. Most men hate any sort of confrontation, even when its needed. However many strong Christian women are also submissive when they need to be. Its just takes more effort from them because they are not door mats.   

[chosenone]

At my house, there are many strong willed people.

We see it as a gift from God.  We are strong in our convictions, in our love for each other, in our devotion to family the people around us and to God.

It is important, however not to let that gift me warped into being stiff necked.

Stiff necked is rebellious, demanding, unkind, self-centered.

A willful wife isn't a bad thing, neither is a strong husband (gosh, I wish women got that label instead of willful  ) UNLESS they abuse the gift God has given them and turn into a stiff necked person.

I SOOO agree Memyself. Both I and my older daughter are strong women. We have had to be with the things we have faced, but that strength under Gods direction can be very godly, and very useful to Him. It can sometimes make me a bit  impatient with people who I consider 'weak', but I am aware of that so I watch out for it. 

[AVZ]

At my house, there are many strong willed people.

We see it as a gift from God.  We are strong in our convictions, in our love for each other, in our devotion to family the people around us and to God.

It is important, however not to let that gift me warped into being stiff necked.

Stiff necked is rebellious, demanding, unkind, self-centered.

A willful wife isn't a bad thing, neither is a strong husband (gosh, I wish women got that label instead of willful  ) UNLESS they abuse the gift God has given them and turn into a stiff necked person.

It appears to me that Eve too was a strong, willful woman. And Adam not much of a confrontationist.
Look where that brought us :)

[chosenone]

At my house, there are many strong willed people.

We see it as a gift from God.  We are strong in our convictions, in our love for each other, in our devotion to family the people around us and to God.

It is important, however not to let that gift me warped into being stiff necked.

Stiff necked is rebellious, demanding, unkind, self-centered.

A willful wife isn't a bad thing, neither is a strong husband (gosh, I wish women got that label instead of willful  ) UNLESS they abuse the gift God has given them and turn into a stiff necked person.

It appears to me that Eve too was a strong, willful woman. And Adam not much of a confrontationist.
Look where that brought us :)

lol, well God doesnt seem to have a problem with strong women, see the verse I posted.

Its what you do with that strength that matters. If it makes will you rebellious and not be who you should be in God,  then that a misuse. Strength rightly used can be very beneficial.   

[MeMyself]

It appears to me that Eve too was a strong, willful woman. And Adam not much of a confrontationist.
Look where that brought us :)

See? But that make it a negative again and what those that want their wives to be a helpmate suitable to him in name only, (as far as chores go and sexual needs) use to silence and shame.  Because Eve goofed, all women are untrustworthy and if you are unlucky enough to chose a strong woman...you poor man.

I don't see Eve as being willful, more fearful, (her sin was after the serpent made her feel she couldn't trust God) which is the opposite IMO.

[Goshin]

Amen. I believe that a lot men are afraid of strong women. They feel intimidated and threatened.

Not me. I don't feel intimated or threatened by, and am attracted to, a strong woman with a mind of her own. I don't think I've ever been in a relationship where my partner said "yes, dear" to everything I said.

I've seen people in relationships like that, but it alway seemed like the women were afraid to say anything or already broke down and just went along with whatever was said

I think many men simply chose not to go enter into a confrontation: Hell hath no fury....

I'm not afraid of confrontation either.

Or to take care of business, or pick up the slack if need be. When my wife fell ill I did all the housework except fold the clothes after I washed them, which she could do sitting down, and do the dishes. I did all the cooking and doing the dishes was her sons chore. Now I live alone, by my choice, and do it all. 

The only time I would consider having had a willful GF was one who wouldn't talk things out when there was an issue, then go do what she wanted to on the sneak.

[MeMyself]

The only time I would consider having had a willful GF was one who wouldn't talk things out when there was an issue, then go do what she wanted to on the sneak.

Willful here in this post equals passive aggressive behaviors. (I agree btw you should avoid that type of personality like the plague...)



 

[Alan]

I encourage my wife to step back into a bit of that strong will that she possessed in her earlier years. We make joint decisions, and sometimes have to compromise, yet are not afraid to let the other know when we are in disagreement. I don't think I'd like a submissive wife, a wife that speaks her mind without trying to control a situation is a wife that is passionate and enthusiastic, yet at the same time, respectful of her husbands desires. 

[DaveW]

Hell hath no fury....

I hear that quoted frequently.  Where is that verse at?  Somewhere in 2nd Condominiums?

[chosenone]

I encourage my wife to step back into a bit of that strong will that she possessed in her earlier years. We make joint decisions, and sometimes have to compromise, yet are not afraid to let the other know when we are in disagreement. I don't think I'd like a submissive wife, a wife that speaks her mind without trying to control a situation is a wife that is passionate and enthusiastic, yet at the same time, respectful of her husbands desires. 

Thats what I try to be Alan. 

[Curtis]

If Adam had done what he was suppose to, Eve would not have been deceived. Eve was deceived, but Adam knew what he did was wrong, but did it anyway. When a family unit is in unity, nothing can break through and destroy their marriage.

[MeMyself]

I encourage my wife to step back into a bit of that strong will that she possessed in her earlier years. We make joint decisions, and sometimes have to compromise, yet are not afraid to let the other know when we are in disagreement. I don't think I'd like a submissive wife, a wife that speaks her mind without trying to control a situation is a wife that is passionate and enthusiastic, yet at the same time, respectful of her husbands desires. 

Thats what I try to be Alan. 

Me, as well.

I think I can be strong, know my own mind, speak my thoughts and opinions, and still be submissive.  I want to work with my dh, but I also want to feel like he values and considers my input.