Truth about the pillar of truth

[skeeter]

This is especially for mclees .

There are plenty of robes , rings , hats , incense , etc.......

The link is to the Eucharist celebrated yesterday in the magnificent cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris , with Cardinal Andre Vingt-Trois , Archbishop of Paris leading the Mass .

A beautiful way of giving glory to God .

so who was there yesterday? Peter? Paul? James?

[Paulus]

skeeter you ask : " so who was there yesterday? Peter? Paul? James? "

I do not understand the question . Please would you clarify what you are asking .

This is especially for mclees .

There are plenty of robes , rings , hats , incense , etc.......

The link is to the Eucharist celebrated yesterday in the magnificent cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris , with Cardinal Andre Vingt-Trois , Archbishop of Paris leading the Mass .

A beautiful way of giving glory to God .

http://www.ktotv.com/videos-chretiennes/emissions/nouveautes/messe-a-notre-dame-de-paris-messe-du-28-septembre-2014/00087896

[mclees8]

 From reply 51       Why, the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of all God's truth. Everything Jesus and the apostles taught, everything God revealed with regard to faith and morals. It is recorded in part in the Church's book we call the Bible,

Yes we have al that in our Bible which is the same as yours and it reaveals to us all what God taught in regards to faith and morals. Nothing exclusive there.

We don't agree on this.  Catholics believe that the Bible does not contain everything God taught with regards to faith and morals.  That is why I wrote "in part".  That means "not all, but some".  Most actually.  But not all. 


Mike >That is interesting. The Bible is not all the truth but just part of it.  If its incomplete as you say what are the faith and morals that are not there that somehow you say your magisterial has. Did they put them in another book for themselves. Is it hid in the archives locked up in the Vatican basement?
The Bible you say is incomplete says the Holy spirit will lead us into all the truth. If he the Holy spirit that was promised to every believer guides all of us, how do you say the Bible is incomplete when it comes to personal revelation of truth. I believe that one who truly loves Christ and studies to know his word and hungers for more truth it shall be revealed to him. He has given me much truth and revelation over the years less I would not be able to even be hear.


Cath> And on top of that, we don't even agree on faith and morals and we use the same Bible.  For example, do you believe that it is a grave sin to miss Church on Sunday without a valid reason?

What do you use to validate that.  I go to church because I want to not because you say its grave sin not to.  Can't you see the legalism you live by. The strangle hold they have put on you. Does the Lord enforce Christianity with fear tactics.

 
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 

This is my reply in part.

[mclees8]

This is especially for mclees .

There are plenty of robes , rings , hats , incense , etc.......

The link is to the Eucharist celebrated yesterday in the magnificent cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris , with Cardinal Andre Vingt-Trois , Archbishop of Paris leading the Mass .

A beautiful way of giving glory to God .

http://www.ktotv.com/videos-chretiennes/emissions/nouveautes/messe-a-notre-dame-de-paris-messe-du-28-septembre-2014/00087896


Do you think this impresses God. All these outward shows of religion. You will not find this in our Knew covenant scriptures. Paul said know ye not hat ye are the Temple and the spirit of God is in you. I tell you two or three gathered in His name under a tree to worship Him in spirit and in truth glorifies God

[winsome]

Do you think this impresses God. All these outward shows of religion. You will not find this in our Knew covenant scriptures. Paul said know ye not hat ye are the Temple and the spirit of God is in you. I tell you two or three gathered in His name under a tree to worship Him in spirit and in truth glorifies God

Why do you think we are trying to impress God. These things are to give glory to God not impress him.

God does not change Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8)

He commanded the Israelites to worship and glorify him whilst wearing ceremonial robes.

And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. And you shall speak to all who have ability, whom I have endowed with an able mind, that they make Aaron's garments to consecrate him for my priesthood. These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a coat of checker work, a turban, and a girdle; they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons to serve me as priests. (Ex 28: 2-4)

Luke 15
21 His son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.'
22 But his father ordered his servants, 'Quickly bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.
23 Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then let us celebrate with a feast,
24 because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.' Then the celebration began.This altar you are to place in front of the veil that hangs before the ark of the commandments where I will meet you. "On it Aaron shall burn fragrant incense. Morning after morning, when he prepares the lamps, and again in the evening twilight, when he lights the lamps, he shall burn incense. Throughout your generations this shall be the established incense offering before the LORD. (Ex 30:6-8)

When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. (Rev 5:8)

[Catholica]

The only parts of the mass that are absolutely necessary are the words of institution.  The whole rest of it is not, so why do it?

Like winsome said, the garments bring glory to God.  But apart from that, the mass is intentionally beautiful.  And this reflects the three attributes of God: Beauty, truth and goodness.  All three of these things are connected to love, and God is love.

The male character in the Song of Songs takes delight in his bride being beautiful, and the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) takes great joy in his bride (the Church) being beautiful too.

Likewise the bride (the Church) loves the bridegroom (Christ) and so she takes great delight in being beautiful for Him out of love for Him, to please Him.  This beauty is within (through holiness) and without (through the outward appearance of beauty).

In addition, beauty in the liturgy is a real help for the body of Christ.  Reverence for God is reflected in reverence in the liturgy, and this reverent exterior inspires the people who intend to dispose themselves during the mass.  A soul more properly disposed during the mass receives more grace from reception of the Eucharist than one that is less properly disposed.  These beautiful parts of the mass inspire us in love to love God even more, and through that disposition and love, by the power of God's grace, we grow in holiness.

Only a bad bride would hate adorning herself for her Bridegroom, and only a jealous woman would detest a beautifully adorned bride preparing herself for her Husband.

[skeeter]

Skeeter said: "the central authority was in Jerusalem.  The apostles and disciples were the leaders.

That was until the ONE singled out by Christ went to Rome along with the great evangelist named Paul where both were martyred. And then does it not make sense that the one singled out by Christ would in turn pick someone to see that the new faith continued on? He, an Apostle certainly had the power to do this, no?

And then, again and again again as time went on into the next succeeding centuries it was were held. The BISHOP OF ROME, not the Bishop of Jerusalem.

I've not read anything in scripture about the 'Bishop of Rome' being looked to for guidance. I did read about Peter being sent out 'by others' tho.  And about Paul correcting Peter - and such things. No mention of Peter being the 'head' of the church. No mention of Peter in Rome.  - only in the mind of the RC.

so, they went to Rome together... hard to imagine that Paul didn't mention that.  Or that Peter doesn't mention going to visit Paul in prison there.

Peter was singled out by Christ only in the mind of the RC.  He had the power to pass on something he did not have? 

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

[skeeter]

skeeter you say and ask : " It does say that a bishop should be the husband of one wife.  How many does a Catholic bishop have? "

Do you come on this Catholic Forum and ask such a question and then expect to be taken seriously ?

You really are scraping the barrel of your silly anti-Catholicism .

Surely you can do better .

surely you can do better than attack?  The Bible does say that.  It was right there when I was looking up the verse about the 'the pillar and ground of the truth' (part of a verse that Catholics so often like to use).

[winsome]

I tell you two or three gathered in His name under a tree to worship Him in spirit and in truth glorifies God

Inceidentally mclees, where does it say in the Bible that we have to gather under a tree to worship God?

Just curious.

[winsome]

Peter was singled out by Christ only in the mind of the RC.

If you read your Bible you will find that Christ very much singled out Peter, as did others.

[mclees8]

I tell you two or three gathered in His name under a tree to worship Him in spirit and in truth glorifies God



Inceidentally mclees, where does it say in the Bible that we have to gather under a tree to worship God?

Just curious.

You don't. You can gather in a field if you want. I have gathered with believers who were poor and their trailer small and old without air-conditioning. Do you think that God is glorified there as much as this
grand cathedral with all is solemn ceremony and waving incense. I think of Steven who said of the Temple, the earth is the Lords footstool, what building shall you make for Him. Jesus said also of the temple that not one stone would be left upon it. So do you think the Lord is impressed with all your man centered grandeur

[winsome]

You don't. You can gather in a field if you want. I have gathered with believers who were poor and their trailer small and old without air-conditioning. Do you think that God is glorified there as much as this
grand cathedral with all is solemn ceremony and waving incense. I think of Steven who said of the Temple, the earth is the Lords footstool, what building shall you make for Him. Jesus said also of the temple that not one stone would be left upon it. So do you think the Lord is impressed with all your man centered grandeur

Good!

You agree then that:

1. There is more than one way to worship and glorify God

2. The way we worship and glorify God doesn't have to be specified in the Bible

So why do you keep objecting to the way Catholics worship and glorify God?

[skeeter]

You don't. You can gather in a field if you want. I have gathered with believers who were poor and their trailer small and old without air-conditioning. Do you think that God is glorified there as much as this
grand cathedral with all is solemn ceremony and waving incense. I think of Steven who said of the Temple, the earth is the Lords footstool, what building shall you make for Him. Jesus said also of the temple that not one stone would be left upon it. So do you think the Lord is impressed with all your man centered grandeur

Good!

You agree then that:

1. There is more than one way to worship and glorify God

2. The way we worship and glorify God doesn't have to be specified in the Bible

So why do you keep objecting to the way Catholics worship and glorify God?

Is that what you read in mclees post?  I don't. you're reading it like you evidently do the Bible. Adding to... taking away...

[winsome]

 Quote from  mclees "You can gather in a field if you want. I have gathered with believers who were poor and their trailer small and old without air-conditioning"

hence I said he agreed that
1. There is more than one way to worship and glorify God
 
Quote from mclees "You can gather in a field if you want. I have gathered with believers who were poor and their trailer small and old without air-conditioning"

hence I said that he agreed that
2. The way we worship and glorify God doesn't have to be specified in the Bible

Or can you find where it says in the Bible that we can worship and glorify God in a small trailer without air conditioning?

[Paulus]

 Quote from  mclees "You can gather in a field if you want. I have gathered with believers who were poor and their trailer small and old without air-conditioning"

This Eucharist was celebrated on a racecourse in Galway , Ireland . 
Pope John Paul II in Ireland

[mclees8]

I am still not impressed. I want you to think a picture in your mind and imagine that the priest  was Jesus or picture in your mind Peter or Paul who preached before great crowds. How do you think they would dress. Can you imagine them in religious costume doing religious ceremony to impress the idea of a glorified priest hood.  If this was taught by Jesus then picture Him with the robe and giant hat. No. neither Jesus or Peter would do that. You could not imagine them like that.

As Jesus said of the Pharisees  in all they do they do to be seen of men. Every thing your religious order does is to be seen of men.  From grand cathedrals to the tip of their points hats.

[skeeter]

Peter was singled out by Christ only in the mind of the RC.

If you read your Bible you will find that Christ very much singled out Peter, as did others.

I not only read my Bible, I study it.  That's how I found out that Peter wasn't singled out to be the head of His church (which is what Ladonia was referring to).  Peter was 'singled out' (with others)  to take the gospel to the Jews.
You should try reading and studying it and not depending on others to tell you what it says.

[kensington]

I am still not impressed. I want you to think a picture in your mind and imagine that the priest  was Jesus or picture in your mind Peter or Paul who preached before great crowds. How do you think they would dress. Can you imagine them in religious costume doing religious ceremony to impress the idea of a glorified priest hood.

I can't see Jesus in that BIG white and gold crown that they wear.  Ever.

[winsome]

I not only read my Bible, I study it.  That's how I found out that Peter wasn't singled out to be the head of His church (which is what Ladonia was referring to).  Peter was 'singled out' (with others)  to take the gospel to the Jews.
You should try reading and studying it and not depending on others to tell you what it says.

You need to study it some more. You seemed to have missed a lot.

I recommend this thread to find out what you missed:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/peter-vicar-of-christ/

The first two posts cover it.

[winsome]

mclees:- am still not impressed. I want you to think a picture in your mind and imagine that the priest  was Jesus or picture in your mind Peter or Paul who preached before great crowds. How do you think they would dress. Can you imagine them in religious costume doing religious ceremony to impress the idea of a glorified priest hood.

kensington:- I can't see Jesus in that BIG white and gold crown that they wear.  Ever.

And what else did Jesus, Peter and the apostles not do:

They didn't wear trousers
They didn't wear a wristwatch
They didn't speak English
They didn't fly in aeroplanes
They didn't drive a car
They didn't have an iPad
They didn't use email
They didn't use twitter
They didn't have a facebook account
They didn't take photographs
They didn't go skiing
They didn't keep a cat
They didn't go to a zoo
They didn't drink tea
They didn't drink coffee
They didn't eat potatoes
They didn't have china cups
They didn't have an iPod
They didn't have a free bus pass when they got old
They didn't ride on a bus (so they wouldn't need a free bus pass anyway)
They didn't eat jelly babies
They didn't use a microphone
They didn't ...... feel free to add your own. I've got bored.


Oh, incidentally kensington:
Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) "Faithful and True." He judges and wages war in righteousness. His eyes were (like) a fiery flame, and on his head were many diadems. He had a name inscribed that no one knows except himself. He wore a cloak that had been dipped in blood, and his name was called the Word of God. (Rev 19:11-13)

Webster's Dictionary:
Di´a`dem
n.    1.    Originally, an ornamental head band or fillet, worn by Eastern monarchs as a badge of royalty; hence (later), also, a crown, in general.

[skeeter]

mclees:- am still not impressed. I want you to think a picture in your mind and imagine that the priest  was Jesus or picture in your mind Peter or Paul who preached before great crowds. How do you think they would dress. Can you imagine them in religious costume doing religious ceremony to impress the idea of a glorified priest hood.

Oh, incidentally kensington:
Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) "Faithful and True." He judges and wages war in righteousness. His eyes were (like) a fiery flame, and on his head were many diadems. He had a name inscribed that no one knows except himself. He wore a cloak that had been dipped in blood, and his name was called the Word of God. (Rev 19:11-13)

Webster's Dictionary:
Di´a`dem
n.    1.    Originally, an ornamental head band or fillet, worn by Eastern monarchs as a badge of royalty; hence (later), also, a crown, in general.

Matthew 24

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.  5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

[winsome]

Matthew 24

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.  5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

Is is random quote time, or just "I have no answer so I will abuse scripture and imply you are a deceiver"?