Charisms

[Paulus]

Pope Francis reflects on the charisms

Pope Francis reflected on the charisms and their effect on the Church in his catechesis during today's general audience in St Peter's Square, attended by more than 35,000 people.

"Ever since the beginning, the Lord has filled his Church with the gifts of His Spirit, making her forever alive ... and among these gifts, we find some that are particularly valuable for the edification and the progress of the Christian community: these are charisms", said the Holy Father. He explained that in everyday language we often refer to "charisma" in relation to a talent or natural ability. However, from a Christian point of view, a charism is far more than a personal quality, a predisposition or a gift: it is a grace, a gift from God the Father, by the action of the Holy Spirit ... so that with the same gratuitous love it may be placed at the service of the entire community, for the good of all".

On the other hand, Pope Francis emphasised that alone it is impossible to understand whether or not one has received a charism or what form it takes, as it is within a community that we learn to recognise them as a sign of the Father's love for all of His sons and daughters. It is therefore good for us to ask ourselves, 'Has the Lord made a charism issue forth in me, in the grace of His Spirit, that my brothers in the Christian community have recognised and encouraged? And how do I act, in relation to this gift: do I experience it with generosity, placing it at the service of all, or do I neglect it and end up forgetting about it? Or does it perhaps become a pretext for pride, so that I expect the community to do things my way?".

"The most beautiful experience, however, is discovering how many different charisms there are, and with how many gifts of the Spirit the Father fills His Church. This must not be regarded as a cause for confusion or unease: they are all gifts that God gives to the Christian community, so that it might grow harmoniously, in faith and in His love, like one body, the body of Christ. The same Spirit that grants this diversity of charisms also constructs the unity of the Church".

He warned, "Beware, lest these gifts become a cause for envy, division or jealousy! As the apostle Paul recalls in his First Letter to the Corinthians, all charisms are important in the eyes of God, and at the same time, no-one is indispensable. This means that in the Christian community everyone needs the other, and every gift received is fully realised when it is shared with brothers, for the good of all. This is the Church! And when the Church, in the variety of her charisms, is expressed in communion, she cannot err: it is the beauty and the strength of the sensus fidei, of that supernatural sense of faith, that is given by the Holy Spirit so that together we can enter into the heart of the Gospel and learn to follow Jesus in our life".

Pope Francis went on to recall that today the Church commemorates St Therese of Lisieux, who died at the age of 24 and "loved the Church so much that she wanted to be a missionary; she wanted to have every sort of charism. And in prayer she realised that her charism was love. She said, 'In the heart of the Church, I will be love', a beautiful phrase. And we all have this charism: the capacity to love. Today let us ask St Therese of the Child Jesus for this capacity to love the Church, to love her dearly, and to accept all these charisms with this filial love for the Church, for our hierarchical holy mother Church".

Source: VIS

[DaveW]

On the other hand, Pope Francis emphasised that alone it is impossible to understand whether or not one has received a charism or what form it takes

I find this statement problematic and a bit scarey.

Celebacy is listed in 1 Cor 7 as a charism.  If it is impossible to understand or discern, how do your priests and nuns know they possess this gift?

[Paulus]

Nothing scary if the whole paragraph is read .

The full paragraph is below :-

On the other hand, Pope Francis emphasised that alone it is impossible to understand whether or not one has received a charism or what form it takes, as it is within a community that we learn to recognise them as a sign of the Father's love for all of His sons and daughters. It is therefore good for us to ask ourselves, 'Has the Lord made a charism issue forth in me, in the grace of His Spirit, that my brothers in the Christian community have recognised and encouraged? And how do I act, in relation to this gift: do I experience it with generosity, placing it at the service of all, or do I neglect it and end up forgetting about it? Or does it perhaps become a pretext for pride, so that I expect the community to do things my way?".

[DaveW]

I did read the whole paragraph.  Even the whole article as posted.

I strongly believe in the charisms, including celebacy. I am just concerned that people (well meaning) who lack proper spiritual discernment are letting young priest and nun students thru who may not actually have that gift.  And as our Lord said:  "It is only those to whom it has been given." Matthew 19:11

[winsome]

I did read the whole paragraph.  Even the whole article as posted.

I strongly believe in the charisms, including celebacy. I am just concerned that people (well meaning) who lack proper spiritual discernment are letting young priest and nun students thru who may not actually have that gift.  And as our Lord said:  "It is only those to whom it has been given." Matthew 19:11

A priest has 7 years of formation before he becomes a priest, similarly for a nun or monk. They, the community they are living in, with their pastors/spiritual directors, have plenty of time to discern.

[winsome]

Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which this and previous recent Pope's have been very supportive of, is one the great gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Church in recent times.

The third of the central goals of CCR as listed in the statutes given to the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS)

3 . To foster the reception and use of the spiritual gifts (charismata) not only in the CCR but also in the broader Church. These gifts, ordinary and extraordinary are abundantly found among laity, religious and clergy. Their proper understanding and use in harmony with other elements of the Church life is a source of strength for Christians on their journey towards holiness and in the carrying out of their mission.

[AVZ]

I did read the whole paragraph.  Even the whole article as posted.

I strongly believe in the charisms, including celebacy. I am just concerned that people (well meaning) who lack proper spiritual discernment are letting young priest and nun students thru who may not actually have that gift.  And as our Lord said:  "It is only those to whom it has been given." Matthew 19:11

A priest has 7 years of formation before he becomes a priest, similarly for a nun or monk. They, the community they are living in, with their pastors/spiritual directors, have plenty of time to discern.

Then where did all the recent scandals come from?

[winsome]

Then where did all the recent scandals come from?

Nobody is perfect. No discernment process is perfect.

[AVZ]

Then where did all the recent scandals come from?

Nobody is perfect. No discernment process is perfect.

Not even after 7 years? Or in some cases even 50+ years?

[winsome]

Not even after 7 years? Or in some cases even 50+ years?

I don't know of any potential priest or nun who was in training for 50 years.

[AVZ]

Not even after 7 years? Or in some cases even 50+ years?

I don't know of any potential priest or nun who was in training for 50 years.

We all know of those who were in office for 50+ years, held seriously high positions, were surrounded by cardinals, spiritual directors and popes for years and years.

[winsome]

We all know of those who were in office for 50+ years, held seriously high positions, were surrounded by cardinals, spiritual directors and popes for years and years.

Do we?

[AVZ]

We all know of those who were in office for 50+ years, held seriously high positions, were surrounded by cardinals, spiritual directors and popes for years and years.

Do we?

Certainly, the last one in a long string of those who according to you had "plenty of time to discern" was Ambassador to the Vatican in the Dominican Republic.

[DaveW]

Hmmm - kinda sorry I brought that one up.  this thread is NOT about scandals. IMO that has been adequatly covered already ..... 


Even though that is a concern of mine and touches on the subject of charismatic gifings.


Another one that concerns me as to how it is used in the RCC is the gift of Discerning of Spirits. Back in college my roommate was catholic and his girlfriend decided to convert to catholocism.  We all attended her baptism which included what was supposed to be a deliverance from demonic spirits. 

Having operated in that gift myself on occasion, I was surprized that I had no sense of anything from her at all, and certainly no sense that a demon had been successfully removed and left. The priest just seemed to be reading down a script that had little or no spiritual substance behind it at all.

Are the priests that do that selected on the basis of that gifting? and then properly trained in its use?

[Catholica]

Another one that concerns me as to how it is used in the RCC is the gift of Discerning of Spirits. Back in college my roommate was catholic and his girlfriend decided to convert to catholocism.  We all attended her baptism which included what was supposed to be a deliverance from demonic spirits. 

Having operated in that gift myself on occasion, I was surprized that I had no sense of anything from her at all, and certainly no sense that a demon had been successfully removed and left. The priest just seemed to be reading down a script that had little or no spiritual substance behind it at all.

Are the priests that do that selected on the basis of that gifting? and then properly trained in its use?

Did you suspect that she had a demon in the first place?

The rite of baptism contains minor exorcisms, it is true, but in the case of baptism the act of baptizing itself basically causes God to infill the soul.  There is no way a demon could possibly continue to possess someone who is then baptized.  The soul is infilled with the Holy Spirit and is washed completely clean of all sin, original and actual.

[DaveW]

I suspected it was possible she had one or 2 from being around her prior to her conversion.


And Rene - I have seen some HORRENDOUS demonic manifestations from strong, baptized believers.  It included a person with a true evangelistic gift (brought several to the Lord) who turned out to be a serial killer. (now doing life w/out the possibility of parole)

So the idea that a truly redeemed believer being imune to demonic infestation is false. 

[Catholica]

I suspected it was possible she had one or 2 from being around her prior to her conversion.


And Rene - I have seen some HORRENDOUS demonic manifestations from strong, baptized believers.  It included a person with a true evangelistic gift (brought several to the Lord) who turned out to be a serial killer. (now doing life w/out the possibility of parole)

So the idea that a truly redeemed believer being imune to demonic infestation is false.

By "Rene" I assume that you mean me, though my name is Andre, I appreciate the effort to remember.

I don't mean that once a person is baptized they cannot be demonically obsessed or even possessed.  I mean that a person who is not baptized and then becomes baptized, that process itself is more powerful than any exorcism.  But once a person is baptized, then they can leave the state of grace through mortal sin, and can be assailed by demons again.  The mark on their soul from baptism makes them an even more appealing target by demons.

The demons can imitate the gifts of God and they can hide things well.  And people can be believers in appearance but without faith in reality.  If this "strong baptized believer" was in a state of grace it is impossible for him to be possessed unless by a strange supernatural permission by God.  More than likely he played the part well but had hidden unrepentant sin.

[DaveW]

By "Rene" I assume that you mean me, though my name is Andre, I appreciate the effort to remember.

Sorry - My bad.  That is what I get operating on only 4.5 hours of sleep. (a long story)

[DaveW]

I don't know what you mean by "strong baptized believers".  The demons can imitate the gifts of God and they can hide things well.  And people can be believers in appearance but without faith in reality.

Yeah - I have run into that before as well - demons aping the gifts.

But this guy had several true conversions to his evangelical efforts.  I seriously doubt any demon would be aping that gift since it is sending people into the other camp where they come into league against them.

But I guess I should have known something was up when he came down hard on me for administering deliverance to a fellow college student that got some real relief from my prayers. He was almost violent when he heard about it.

[Catholica]

I don't know what you mean by "strong baptized believers".  The demons can imitate the gifts of God and they can hide things well.  And people can be believers in appearance but without faith in reality.

Yeah - I have run into that before as well - demons aping the gifts.

But this guy had several true conversions to his evangelical efforts.  I seriously doubt any demon would be aping that gift since it is sending people into the other camp where they come into league against them.

Tell me about his "true conversions".  What kind of preacher was he?

[DaveW]

Tell me about his "true conversions".  What kind of preacher was he?

He was an aide in the Assembly of God campus ministry.  He actually grew up in my wife's home congregation; and the director of the ministry he was part of was a good friend of my wife's older sister.

His conversions came from personally sharing the gospel with students.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ETA:

I later found out that it was a point of Assy of God doctrine that a true christian cannot be "possessed." (which is  a bad translation to begin with) That was a surprize to me since I grew up with the ministry of Lester Sumrall who was Assy of God and was a pioneer in the deliverance ministry in the US.  Then I was under the ministry of Derek Prince (who had been connected with the AG as well) and was a deliverance pioneer in England.

[Catholica]

Tell me about his "true conversions".  What kind of preacher was he?

He was an aide in the Assembly of God campus ministry.  He actually grew up in my wife's home congregation; and the director of the ministry he was part of was a good friend of my wife's older sister.

His conversions came from personally sharing the gospel with students.

Well, keep in mind that it is the Holy Spirit who converts people, not men.  Grace can flow through anyone, even unbelievers.  If anyone converts it is by the Holy Spirit. 

Also this brought to mind those powerful words of Jesus to the Pharisees, "you travel the world to make a single convert and in doing so you make them twice the child of hell as you are".   The demons know that converts may be lost to them for a time but they are not irrecoverable.  Especially, in my view, if they aren't being strengthened by receiving the Eucharist.